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 Astmeister wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
So when I play I am thinking my lists needs some of the following elements:

Ranged support: This will almost always mean my 6 hiveguards, depending om point size. They will need synapse. Perhaps 3 bare warriors or a lone zoanthrope.

A strong core: Probably a tervigon with devilgaunts. Perhaps some counter charge units like warriors or ravaners. Perhaps a tyranofex. Perhaps a venomtrope.

Backline disruption: Probably a trygon/trygon prime, 2 mawlocks and something in the tunnel. Warriors or devilgaunts. I considered ravaners here as well, but if your oponent shoots away the synapse and assault the ravaners there will be trouble.

Objective grabbers: A couple of units of ripper swarms. I am unsure about these as it will almost always make me go last.

Idependent agents: I feel like the mawlock already fits this, but the mawlock lacks punch. Perhaps some dakkafexes.

That would be my general army, and i can scale it up and down based on points. Thoughts?


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GodDamUser wrote:
I am finding I am losing my 3 man squad of warriors first turn..

but then then carnifex do go across the board and smash face

3 man squads of warriors can be good in smaller games. But in larger once I would keep then fairly cheap. Perhaps a venom cannon. The reason if you oponent wants to kill them he can.

Warriors can be better in larger groups as the weak once die out first.

Your planned armylist sounds reasonable and also quite nice as TAC. Of course you have to remember that the list is only suitable for objective grabbing. You cannot overrun most enemy lists with such a force and have to play objective based.
I would like to see a list!

Ablative Warriors are possible, but most often they seem like a waste of resources. In the end you can take a lot of units for cheap in the Tyranids arsenal, which can make a big impact on the game. Some more warriors as sacrifices are likely not super necessary. But I think it might be worth a try. At least more cheap Warriors make the unit more scary in melee and their shooting is also quite nice.

HQ:
Tervigon, massive scything tallons, stinger salvo 250
Tyranid prime, venom cannon, bone swords 113

9 tyranid warriors, 6 devourers, 3 venom cannon, 3 bonesword 243
20 Termagaunts, 10 Deathspitters 120
17 Termagaunts, 10 Deathspitters 108
3 ripper swarm 33
3 ripper swarm 33

Elite:
1 zoanthropes 40
6 3 hive guards, 6 impaler cannon 288

Heavy support:
Mawlock, dispencible maw, prehencile tail, 3 pairs of scything tallons 105
Mawlock, dispencible maw, prehencile tail, 3 pairs of scything tallons 105
Trygon Prime, bio-electric pulse with containment spines, 3 pairs of monstreus scything talons, toxinspike 211
Carnifex, bone mace, 4 devourers with brainleech worms 98

1747

The smaller unit of termagaunts goes in the Trygon, with the 2 mawlocks.

Tervigon, Prime, Termagaunts and Warriors walk up the table.

6 Hiveguards stick with the Zoanthrope. They might have to move at some point.

Carnifex wanders alone.

Ripper Swarms grab objectives.

It's a good enough list. Fun to play with all the different models. It is probably an alternative to the 'kill everything list'. I have no plan vs flyers.

 luke1705 wrote:
Just a thought guys - all of this talk is still welcome in the other thread. You're welcome to continue it here in the context you desire, but it certainly would contribute to all Tyranid armies.

In my opinion, it's probably better to stand united than divided. Even saying something as simple as "how might we accomplish this using no allies?" is a valid question that we did explore some pages back (spoiler alert: we didn't really come up with any awesome ideas, hence allies). But the passion to create a new thread is great and I'm sure would contribute to the original one.

TBH, I like having this in a separate thread. I am going to be running a pure Tyranid army since I have enough units left to buy to complete my Tyranids and I can't afford to support another faction since I also play CSM. Not to mention I have no desire to buy any AM stuff as it's not really my style. Tactics with allies, while great for a lot of people, just give me posts to slog through that don't hold much interest for me. I am still following the other thread to be sure, but I think this one may have more for me.


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 Astmeister wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Q1: Does 9 warriors justefy a prime?

Q2: Venom cannons or stranglethorn cannons? Spinefist, devourer or what's-it's-name as regular guns?

A1: I think a Prime is only ever justified, if you need another HQ choice for Detachment reasons and play a lot of Warriors. Maybe 9 are enough, maybe even 6 can be enough. The problem is that he had the niche of being the cheapest HQ, but now the Malanthrope is much better. And for the 100+ points you can easily buy 3-4 additonal Warriors, which will have more effect on the game than +1 to hit from the Prime.

A2: Venom cannon! It is actually quite good and pretty decent in pinging off wounds from mid to heavy vehicles, which we lack anyway. I would not take Spinefists unless you want to be very assaulty with the Warriors (also they are too expensive). Devourer is the cheap an nice version, however the Deathspitters are basically low range Heavy Bolters. That can be quite scary!

Warriors
I think the Warriors are very though to rate. They can be very important and usefull, but can also be totally unnecessary.
First of all I think they are not really usefull in the recently en-vogue all-assault armies. Secondly I think that Warriors are a allrounder unit in an army of specialists. This is a bit weird and makes them hard to integrate.
Since they are allrounders, I would also not try to specialize them. You could play them as pure assault or pure shooty units, but other units can do this better. So make them allrounders and give them a shooting weapon and Rending Claws or even Lash Whip + Boneswords (just 2 pts!). With these they can also fill the niche of having decent melee capabilities against MEQs and also can shoot with small anti-tank weapons and heavy Bolter equivalents (Deathspitter and Venom Canon).

So I would play them in the following way:
3 Warriors
1x Venom Canon, 2x Deathspitters, 3x Lash Whip + Bonesword, Adrenal Glands
94 pts

You can make them bigger, but this reduces your Synapse coverage, while increasing the melee capabilities. I am not sure if it is worth it.

I would probably use them in armies which are not all-assault, foot-slogging TAC armies and armies with a solid fire base of Exocrines, Biovores or Hive Guard. In all occassions the Malanthrope is still a big competitor for a unit of Warriors, but the Warriors have the advantage of enhancing your shooting. I would take both.

Man, did I build my Warriors all wrong when I got them.....

 Niiai wrote:


HQ:
Tervigon, massive scything tallons, stinger salvo 250
Tyranid prime, venom cannon, bone swords 113

9 tyranid warriors, 6 devourers, 3 venom cannon, 3 bonesword 243
20 Termagaunts, 10 Deathspitters 120
17 Termagaunts, 10 Deathspitters 108
3 ripper swarm 33
3 ripper swarm 33

Elite:
1 zoanthropes 40
6 3 hive guards, 6 impaler cannon 288

Heavy support:
Mawlock, dispencible maw, prehencile tail, 3 pairs of scything tallons 105
Mawlock, dispencible maw, prehencile tail, 3 pairs of scything tallons 105
Trygon Prime, bio-electric pulse with containment spines, 3 pairs of monstreus scything talons, toxinspike 211
Carnifex, bone mace, 4 devourers with brainleech worms 98

1747

The smaller unit of termagaunts goes in the Trygon, with the 2 mawlocks.

Tervigon, Prime, Termagaunts and Warriors walk up the table.

6 Hiveguards stick with the Zoanthrope. They might have to move at some point.

Carnifex wanders alone.

Ripper Swarms grab objectives.

It's a good enough list. Fun to play with all the different models. It is probably an alternative to the 'kill everything list'. I have no plan vs flyers.

That looks like fun, if you play reasonably casual games.
The Tyranid Prime cannot have a Venom Cannon though. Also I suggest that you always take full squads of Termagants, if you use the Tervigon. 17-20 can be killed way too easily and the enemy will do that, if he sees a Tervigon behind them! I also would split up the 6 Hive Guard into 2 units.


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 Battlesong wrote:
Man, did I build my Warriors all wrong when I got them.....

I don't think anyone ever build them with Lash Whip + Bonesword. But it is quite nice now. But you can still use rending claws instead. They are also fine and have certainly advantages. If you have the choice, I would still take the LS + BS. They fill a niche in Tyranid arsenal and rending claws are plenty available.
Also Warriors can be played very differently. You can even field 6-9 units with a mixture of melee and shooting. However, I think that your list has to be specifically designed for this to work. Because in normal tyranid rush armies, this is not really worth it.
In a list like the one upstairs... it might be good though. But these are certainly not tournament winning lists, but can be decent against a lot of things.

 Astmeister wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:
Man, did I build my Warriors all wrong when I got them.....

I don't think anyone ever build them with Lash Whip + Bonesword. But it is quite nice now. But you can still use rending claws instead. They are also fine and have certainly advantages. If you have the choice, I would still take the LS + BS. They fill a niche in Tyranid arsenal and rending claws are plenty available.
Also Warriors can be played very differently. You can even field 6-9 units with a mixture of melee and shooting. However, I think that your list has to be specifically designed for this to work. Because in normal tyranid rush armies, this is not really worth it.
In a list like the one upstairs... it might be good though. But these are certainly not tournament winning lists, but can be decent against a lot of things.

My Warriors are all over the place, though, I have a few with paired boneswords, a couple with deathspitters, one with LW/BS, and, I think, 4 with Venom Cannons. I also have a mix of the really old warriors with the square bases all the way to the newest kit.


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Anyway, I want to ask what loadout everyone is finding most advantageous on their Carnifexes? Do you go full CC, full dakka, or a mix of the 2?

Hive guards: It will be bad to split the hive guards into 2 units. They can split fire, and the more units the bigger the chances of going second.

Gaunts: I only have 20 of them with devourers. I have many regular once after 5th edition.

Warriors: I like the whip and bonesword, but taking them on all 3 or 9 warriors is to much. I would rather just take it on the one with the venom cannon.

Prime: I did not know the prime could not take a cannon. That makes him less exciting.

Dakkafex: What is the best guns to take on him? are some of them better cost to damage ratio?

Any suggestions for making the list i posted above more competetive?

 Battlesong wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:
Man, did I build my Warriors all wrong when I got them.....

I don't think anyone ever build them with Lash Whip + Bonesword. But it is quite nice now. But you can still use rending claws instead. They are also fine and have certainly advantages. If you have the choice, I would still take the LS + BS. They fill a niche in Tyranid arsenal and rending claws are plenty available.
Also Warriors can be played very differently. You can even field 6-9 units with a mixture of melee and shooting. However, I think that your list has to be specifically designed for this to work. Because in normal tyranid rush armies, this is not really worth it.
In a list like the one upstairs... it might be good though. But these are certainly not tournament winning lists, but can be decent against a lot of things.

My Warriors are all over the place, though, I have a few with paired boneswords, a couple with deathspitters, one with LW/BS, and, I think, 4 with Venom Cannons. I also have a mix of the really old warriors with the square bases all the way to the newest kit.


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Anyway, I want to ask what loadout everyone is finding most advantageous on their Carnifexes? Do you go full CC, full dakka, or a mix of the 2?

For warriors, I am unconvinced that LWBS is that great. If I wanted my warriors to be in combat I'd probably just make them Shrikes (or maybe bring them with a Trygon). In that case I can see the point of sticking them on at least a few so they can attack if killed when charged. But only a few - I think it's rare you're going to be putting your synapse in a position to be eradicated in one go! On backfield shooters, like mine will usually be, I think keep em cheap is the mantra, as I expect them to die to shooting far more often than they make melee. That said, if I have the spare points, no reason not to, but there are other things I would prioritise there. Basically I think they're more points filler than auto-take imo.

For fexes I think melee variants are 100% outclassed by the stonecrusher. So unless you fancy converting one up I would advise putting at least one if not two sets of deathspitters on it. Personally I think I am leaning two with a thresher tail, but that version does somewhat need screening.

Belisted. Even in your backline senario it is not unlikely that something can get back there. Most armies have something that moves fast or can deep strike. In one of my games some chaos terminators teleported back there. In these senaries have a bone sword and whip for 2 points is not that bad.

That being said I do not think backline warriors are the best use of them outside of synapse. Are you running 3 warriors with 6 scything tallons?

 Niiai wrote:
Belisted. Even in your backline senario it is not unlikely that something can get back there. Most armies have something that moves fast or can deep strike. In one of my games some chaos terminators teleported back there. In these senaries have a bone sword and whip for 2 points is not that bad.

That being said I do not think backline warriors are the best use of them outside of synapse. Are you running 3 warriors with 6 scything tallons?

It's not vanishingly unlikely, no, but you should have bubble wrap for your synapse if you know there are deepstrikers around, or lock them out of dropping behind your warriors with positioning. I'd be interested to see some math on melee attacks from common deepstrikers from other armies, to see how many warriors they are likely to actually kill (then take that many LWBS). But no, if you can spare the points I agree, may as well LWBS. I'd just be inclined to take things like Bio-plasma on Fexes or bulk up squads first!

I am likely going to be doing 2xDev/DS (haven't decided), 1x VC on my backfield guys, with Scytal unless I have extra points.

I also think someone mentioned putting the LWBS on your VC guy in that squad - which imo is a bad idea, if only one/two gets killed you remove the DS first, so unless it's been shot down to just the VC guy already, he's not the one you want to be taking off first in melee.

All that said, I honestly don't especially like Warriors this edition - they are certainly fine, but as backfield synapse Malanthropes and Primes outclass them due to character and fill HQ slots for cheap; as melee threats Shrikes are imo superior. So they're a bit of a jack of all trades; not the most durable synapse, not the most quick and killy. I guess support fire with synapse in the package is the niche really, which is why I am leaning towards DS/VC on mine.

Can I get some advice from my Hive Fleet brethren. I have a very bizarre collection of Tyranid models and was wondering what you guys think my next few purchases should be to get to a semi-competitive level. Not in a NOVA/Gencon way but more local tourney wise. One caveat, no FW models.....no way I can afford that stuff. What I have:

2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
1 Broodlord
10 Warriors, various loadouts
34 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
25 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Trygon
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots

As you can see, it's pretty much all over the place. Any advice is appreciated!

Benlisted wrote:


For warriors, I am unconvinced that LWBS is that great. If I wanted my warriors to be in combat I'd probably just make them Shrikes (or maybe bring them with a Trygon). In that case I can see the point of sticking them on at least a few so they can attack if killed when charged. But only a few - I think it's rare you're going to be putting your synapse in a position to be eradicated in one go! On backfield shooters, like mine will usually be, I think keep em cheap is the mantra, as I expect them to die to shooting far more often than they make melee. That said, if I have the spare points, no reason not to, but there are other things I would prioritise there. Basically I think they're more points filler than auto-take imo.

For fexes I think melee variants are 100% outclassed by the stonecrusher. So unless you fancy converting one up I would advise putting at least one if not two sets of deathspitters on it. Personally I think I am leaning two with a thresher tail, but that version does somewhat need screening.

First of all: LWBS is the same cost as rending claws. However LWBS is very niche in the army and quite good against MEQ, while RC is everywhere due to the ever present Genestealers.
Also in the backfield as a babysitter, the Warriors will probably go to combat against a lot of opponents. Just look at the deep striking Scion squads with 2-4 Plasma. Everyone plays them and they are pretty good against a solid backfield shooting bases made of Exocrine, Biovores, Hive Guard. Two of these units can even be hidden behind terrain and thus the AM player will want to drop Scions to burn them out of their hidding place.
And I am also pretty sure that the deep striking guys will not shoot at the Warriors when there are the aforementioned things in the backfield. Unlike the old days, you cannot shut the backfield of Nids down, just by killing the synapse. So if the Warriors are standing there with Scions closeby, you will probably try to eat them in melee. So why not take RC, LWBS or even double BS? SC are also okay, but against a lot of threads, the rest performs better.


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 Niiai wrote:
Hive guards: It will be bad to split the hive guards into 2 units. They can split fire, and the more units the bigger the chances of going second.

Gaunts: I only have 20 of them with devourers. I have many regular once after 5th edition.

Warriors: I like the whip and bonesword, but taking them on all 3 or 9 warriors is to much. I would rather just take it on the one with the venom cannon.

Prime: I did not know the prime could not take a cannon. That makes him less exciting.

Dakkafex: What is the best guns to take on him? are some of them better cost to damage ratio?

Any suggestions for making the list i posted above more competetive?

The problem with 6 Hive Guards in a unit for me is that you cannot hide them properly. And thus you lose one of their great strengths.

I would play a Carnifex with 2x Deathspitter and Scy Tals. I do not like to loose his melee capabilities. Besides the damage potential from the Deathspitters is not nearly as exciting as they look on paper. I did a lot of maths on them and they are actually kind of meh. They seem to be good against light-medium vehicles, but the problem is that vehicles have almost three times the amount of wounds now. And against infantry the Dakkafex is also just mediocre, I think.
I would even play him with Heavy Venom Cannon, but I am a casual gamer anyway....

So I just had my first game with Tyranids and first game of 8th.

It wasn't a properly put together list it was just 1500p of what I had. I went up against Draigo paladins interceptors and 2 autocannon las dreads.

Tabled by Turn 3 everything wiped out.


Swarmlord - broodlord

20 genestealers
20 genestealers
10 genestealers
3 warriors (forgot I had another 3 but they did little but hold an objective anyway)

Exocrine - Trygon Prime

The only thing that performed well was swarmlords ability to catapult genestealers into combat and the Exocrine who even when crippled reliably made back its points in one turn of shooting. The rest of the Genestealers were to slow moving up the board, the stormbolters that seemed to have reroll everything thanks to Draigo demolished my squads, 40 shots at a time with reroll to hit so even overwatch was deleted multiple models

The rest of the genestealers are just too slow to advance on a gunline, and as he said even if I brought another exocrine, his dreads can sit 48 inches away and be shooting at them.

So I'm aiming for a 2000p list and quite frankly I'm a little stumped. I know running 50 genestealers just isn't that good an idea. The GK can shoot a gak ton of shots and then be pretty good in combat after that.

Use gaunts to keep his units from shooting while your stealers move up the table.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
My issue with the Tyranofex is he almost always has to move. the Exocrine's extra range just helps him get the double shots easier.

As for spore mines, deploying them on their own is exactly how I use them. It eats up an opponent's unit's turn to get rid of them. It's a cheap way to keep a unit from moving and shooting for a turn.

For our fliers, I really do like them both, but haven't had a chance to play either of them yet. They seem like they would work far better in pairs than just single.

I feel the acid spray Tyrannofex is a great unit-aircraft weapon. No need to worry about the Hard to Hit rule and it hits at 18''. People are saying flamethrowers are good against flyers, this is that on steroids.

 Astmeister wrote:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:


Thanks for the input! I've been wanting to try him out, but never know what best roll it's going to play in a Tyranid Fleet. My first attempt will be hopefully this week. My plan is to use Maleceptor, Swarmlord and a full unit of Tyrant Guard carried in via Tyrannocyte and hopefully roll a flank with them. Having the Maleceptor should provide both beatstick and backup onslaught should Swarmy fails his roll.

I hope you are aware of the fact that you will have to use 3 Tyrannocytes for your plan? This means you are dropping 1000 pts with just 3 units of which one (the swarmlord) is a reasonable fighter. Also in matched play you can only try to cast Onslaught once per turn.

Oh yes, yes I do know I will be using three Tyrannocytes. 1172 pts to be exact.

As for casting, I wasn't aware of the only one time per power. So the rule of one is in 40K now too huh? Guess I'll need that book after all...

 Battlesong wrote:
Can I get some advice from my Hive Fleet brethren. I have a very bizarre collection of Tyranid models and was wondering what you guys think my next few purchases should be to get to a semi-competitive level. Not in a NOVA/Gencon way but more local tourney wise. One caveat, no FW models.....no way I can afford that stuff. What I have:

2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
1 Broodlord
10 Warriors, various loadouts
34 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
25 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Trygon
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots

As you can see, it's pretty much all over the place. Any advice is appreciated!

I think you can make a good TAC list with that. It will not win tournaments, but perform well enough in casual games.
Exocrines are big winners in 8th edition. You should buy want of those. The amount of food walking stuff also points in the direction of a unit of venomthropes.


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Jaq Draco lives wrote:
So I just had my first game with Tyranids and first game of 8th.

It wasn't a properly put together list it was just 1500p of what I had. I went up against Draigo paladins interceptors and 2 autocannon las dreads.

Tabled by Turn 3 everything wiped out.


Swarmlord - broodlord

20 genestealers
20 genestealers
10 genestealers
3 warriors (forgot I had another 3 but they did little but hold an objective anyway)

Exocrine - Trygon Prime

The only thing that performed well was swarmlords ability to catapult genestealers into combat and the Exocrine who even when crippled reliably made back its points in one turn of shooting. The rest of the Genestealers were to slow moving up the board, the stormbolters that seemed to have reroll everything thanks to Draigo demolished my squads, 40 shots at a time with reroll to hit so even overwatch was deleted multiple models

The rest of the genestealers are just too slow to advance on a gunline, and as he said even if I brought another exocrine, his dreads can sit 48 inches away and be shooting at them.

So I'm aiming for a 2000p list and quite frankly I'm a little stumped. I know running 50 genestealers just isn't that good an idea. The GK can shoot a gak ton of shots and then be pretty good in combat after that.

Grey Knights might be tough, because they can shoot and melee. But both the exocrine and the trygon should be fantastic against them. I think you have a problem in just putting one unit of genestealers immediatly at the enemy via swarmy, then a second wave and the backfield. This is far too easy to counter. I think you should normally avoid first turn charges, unless you can tie up very vulnerable strong shooting units (where GK are nowhere close) or if you can do a lot of first turn charges at once.


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 benlac wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
My issue with the Tyranofex is he almost always has to move. the Exocrine's extra range just helps him get the double shots easier.

As for spore mines, deploying them on their own is exactly how I use them. It eats up an opponent's unit's turn to get rid of them. It's a cheap way to keep a unit from moving and shooting for a turn.

For our fliers, I really do like them both, but haven't had a chance to play either of them yet. They seem like they would work far better in pairs than just single.

I feel the acid spray Tyrannofex is a great unit-aircraft weapon. No need to worry about the Hard to Hit rule and it hits at 18''. People are saying flamethrowers are good against flyers, this is that on steroids.

Acid spray is good against flyers. However it can just shoot twice if you did not move (flyers will use that), they lose strength when the T-Fex is damaged and just have -1AP.
Overall I assume they are overrated against flyers, but since we do not have a lot of stuff against them anyway... why not?


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BTW: I added a poll, about whether or not we should keep this thread.

If you vote for yes, it will stay as it is.
If you vote for no, we will stop this thread and combine the stuff with the "old" Tyranid Tactica thread again.

Explanation:
We opened this thread, because the feeling for some arose that it would be nice to have a thread just about Tyranids without any alliies. The reasoning was that the general thread was increasingly suggesting a lot of GSC and AM alliies.

Lol Astmeister you really know your gak because that is exactly what happened.

The problem with trying to pull that ripcord and get it all together is that he can gate up to my troops with virtually everything and delete them and those dreads really put the hurt down on big wound creatures (12 wounds is nothing)

That being said when he did hit the exocrine, at 3 wounds it still killed 6 marines in one shot despite the lower BS which obviously hurt him a lot given there wasn't that many units on the board.

Just gave me a heck of a lot to think about.

I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

 Niiai wrote:
I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

Thank you! I am currently setting up a GSC/AM/Tyranid list but it doesn't belong in a tyranid discussion when its literally new codex new rules we should at least try and figure out some codex only armies.

 Niiai wrote:
I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

Literally, the only person in the entire Tyranids thread to even bring up Hydra's, is me. The only other person to comment on them, Luke, said they wouldn't work. And I haven't been answering "every question" with "get Hydras", I only posted my own list including them, right next to a pure all Nid list, and said I wasn't sure which one would perform better SPECIFICALLY in a meta with Stormraven spam. A list that I've since moved on from. Because I too like to discuss this game and my armies.



If you are going to complain about something, make sure it actually exists, because that's not even close to an accurate description of that thread at all.

I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

While that is not the current opinion on the Tyranid thread, it is an inevebilaty. The competetive threads tends to push towards playing the best units in large quanteties. The best unit is aøways the one who is under costed for what you get. The way spamming works in warhammer you need to build in redundancy in your list to stop your opponents spam.

We are already mapping out the 'best units' in the tyranid codex. Best unit to kill unit x. Best unit to kill unit x per points invested. Se the warrior vs carnifex disucssion where devilgaunts came out on top.

Then we start comparing unit x from our list with unit x from cultist list. Already the consetus is that regular genestealers are good (sucks to be you ravaners) but that genestealers from the cultist list is just better because of the ambush. Already lists are sugested where you splash for cultist ambush genestealers.

Then the FAQ came in where the cultist can take imperial guard (astra something?) units, meaning we start scouting a 3rd codex for a good unit.

Next some tournament reports will start coming in. Storm raven spam + gulliman will do good. Hydras will be sugested as a counter. The regular nid codex does currently not have any good flyers.

And even if 'I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.' is not literarly true, I never meant it to be. I meant it as a methaphore as all of the units in our codex will be compared to two other codexes as well. I will not be buying 3 different codexes. I will not buy any IG units. I will not buy any cult units. I have a lot of nids from 5th edition. I want to play with these. I do not want suggestions that I should get unit X from such and such because it is a system of bad internal balance. If I wanted that, I would be playing a different game with better game balance, like Mtg. Heck even heartstone has better internal balance then GW. I play my nids to have fun, although I do like to play a good army.

So to summarice, and read this methaphorically Shuppet:

I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

 Niiai wrote:
I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

While that is not the current opinion on the Tyranid thread, it is an inevebilaty. The competetive threads tends to push towards playing the best units in large quanteties. The best unit is aøways the one who is under costed for what you get. The way spamming works in warhammer you need to build in redundancy in your list to stop your opponents spam.

We are already mapping out the 'best units' in the tyranid codex. Best unit to kill unit x. Best unit to kill unit x per points invested. Se the warrior vs carnifex disucssion where devilgaunts came out on top.

Then we start comparing unit x from our list with unit x from cultist list. Already the consetus is that regular genestealers are good (sucks to be you ravaners) but that genestealers from the cultist list is just better because of the ambush. Already lists are sugested where you splash for cultist ambush genestealers.

Then the FAQ came in where the cultist can take imperial guard (astra something?) units, meaning we start scouting a 3rd codex for a good unit.

Next some tournament reports will start coming in. Storm raven spam + gulliman will do good. Hydras will be sugested as a counter. The regular nid codex does currently not have any good flyers.

And even if 'I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.' is not literarly true, I never meant it to be. I meant it as a methaphore as all of the units in our codex will be compared to two other codexes as well. I will not be buying 3 different codexes. I will not buy any IG units. I will not buy any cult units. I have a lot of nids from 5th edition. I want to play with these. I do not want suggestions that I should get unit X from such and such because it is a system of bad internal balance. If I wanted that, I would be playing a different game with better game balance, like Mtg. Heck even heartstone has better internal balance then GW. I play my nids to have fun, although I do like to play a good army.

So to summarice, and read this methaphorically Shuppet:

I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

the fact that you think it's an "inevitability" when it's been brought up by one person, responded to by one other, and agreed upon as both as a bad option and will likely not even be mentioned again, is kind of interesting. Do you know something we don't, or are you just doom saying for the hell of it?


What you don't want is a thread where allies are allowed to be considered. That's fine. What you portrayed, was a thread where all we are doing is discussing which AM units to take to be competitive, which is far from the truth. The thread has over 1100+ posts in it. To my knowledge, TWO people to date have talked about which specific AM units to include.


"every answer is get Hydras" lol

Look up the word methaphor in a dictionary because you stil do not know what it means.

If not hydras then something else. There is always a unit undercosted, particurarly if you can choose from 3 codexes. See my example about nid genestealers vs cult genestealers.

 Niiai wrote:
Look up the word methaphor in a dictionary because you stil do not know what it means.

If not hydras then something else. There is always a unit undercosted, particurarly if you can choose from 3 codexes. See my example about nid genestealers vs cult genestealers.

Which is as I said. You don't want a thread where the discussion of allies is an option. Which is fine, this is what you have now. There is zero need to imply that all we do in there is tell everyone to spam Hydra's, whether "metaphorically" or not, is utter nonsense.

I liked it better when you two were arguing over at the OTHER thread! Leave this one alone!

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
So I just had my first game with Tyranids and first game of 8th.

It wasn't a properly put together list it was just 1500p of what I had. I went up against Draigo paladins interceptors and 2 autocannon las dreads.

Tabled by Turn 3 everything wiped out.

So I'm aiming for a 2000p list and quite frankly I'm a little stumped. I know running 50 genestealers just isn't that good an idea. The GK can shoot a gak ton of shots and then be pretty good in combat after that.

GK are tough. So are custodes. Broodlords are nice because they can't be targeted and can do mortal wounds. Your idea with the gene stealers was a fine one, but because you can't cult ambush, you need Trygons. It's kind of like "no child left behind", but for gene stealers.

Trygons can be decent at killing elite infantry since they typically wound on 3's, and they're not bad against vehicles, even though the wound on 5's because they have so many attacks. But a squad of GK will shred through them. D3 damage is rough. Not as rough as instant death used to be, but still not good for Mr. Trygon.

GK are actually pretty vulnerable to volume of fire. A tyrannoctye or the Tyrranofex with the billion shot gun wouldn't be bad. A Tervigon spawning a bunch of Gants would be even better. Grab a blob of 30 with say 10 devourers. Replace the stock ones as they die. Would recommend even "reserving" a squad or two to let the tervigon spawn some more as the game goes on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:


So to summarize:

I would like a thread where every awnser is not 'Get Hydras'. So yes, keep the two threads.

I think we're probably beating a dead horse at this point. This thread exists. If people are going to make meaningful contributions to Tyranid Tactics, that's great. Glad it helps people. If its purpose is to keep complaining about other people using allies....not really my cup of tea.

That's actually the problem I have seen with too many monstrous creatures. It's too easy to pick them out and hit them with multiple wounding weapons. I think a mix of units almost always works better. Some of the big guys, some of the little guys, some melee and some shooting.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
That's actually the problem I have seen with too many monstrous creatures. It's too easy to pick them out and hit them with multiple wounding weapons. I think a mix of units almost always works better. Some of the big guys, some of the little guys, some melee and some shooting.

This is how GW intends you to play the game. If your opponent is going to play the game the same way, you're totally right. But this is the essence of the divide between players who say "I want a competitive list", where competitive to them means having roughly a 50% chance of beating their opponent and players who say "I want to play a list that can do well at a tournament"

The issue is that at the upper tournament level, you're not going to do well with an army like you described.

For example, say your opponent has 10 lascannons in his army. I would expect a well-rounded list to have somewhere in that neighborhood of anti tank weapons. What if you don't bring any monstrous creatures? What does he shoot at? Maybe some hive guard or a lictor. What if you don't bring any of those even? What if all of your models are either single wound or are characters that can't be targeted?

Suddenly, your opponent's lascannons are just really overpriced heavy bolters. The efficiency of many of his weapons goes down drastically.

This is why genestealers are so good right now. They have an invulnerable save, so any weapon that should ignore their armor save is just paying a bunch of points to be a really expensive bolter.

I'm not saying "go forth and buy Genestealers". But this is the essence of why spam works - not because those units are super OP OP (it helps if they are obviously). But take the storm raven list, for example. An individual or even two storm ravens? Eh. I've got lascannons for that (I mean we don't but most armies have something like that that kills tanks, whether they fly or not). Suddenly, though, even if I kill one, there's 4 more where those came from and they can kill all of my heavy weapons that threaten them. It's actually a list building strategy called redundancy. If you have 1 unit that can deal with flyers, and say you go second and they kill that unit. Well, then you've got a problem.

TLDR: Buy more Hydras

In all seriousness, though, just make sure that your list has redundancy. You don't need 5 of every unit, but you need to make sure that you don't just have 1 unit that can kill tanks, or just 1 unit that can kill terminators, etc. It's even worse if that 1 unit is the only unit that can do both of those things then you're really toast if it dies.

I noticed this today with Termagants
They do not all have to have the same weapon. So if you only got 20 with devourers, that's fine, just add in 10 with fleshboars. You save some points and get some cannon fodder.
I like to pop them out of a Trygon Prime hole. But running up tthe board with fleshboar or spike rifle fodder mixed in can save some points.

In fact, pretty much all Tryanid units can take a mix of weapons. So its probably worth it to throw in some models with the cheapest gear. Like in a warrior squad, always have a model with 2 Scything talons whos job is to take the first salvo of shooting wounds.

----------------------

I'll be following this thread because the other one was started at begining of June before 8th edition was released - so annoying to have to read through rumor/spoiler information that gets the rules wrong. Its bad enough that there is already a post in this thread with a guy trying to equip his termagants with deathspitters.

---------------------

Note: Doing comparisons to genestealer cults is fine because obviously different strategies and lists get some insight like "if you run all infantry the go with GSC because then you get ambush", basically like the post above this one has stated.


But if you want to full on talk about GSC then its best to go to that thread.

 luke1705 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
That's actually the problem I have seen with too many monstrous creatures. It's too easy to pick them out and hit them with multiple wounding weapons. I think a mix of units almost always works better. Some of the big guys, some of the little guys, some melee and some shooting.

This is how GW intends you to play the game. If your opponent is going to play the game the same way, you're totally right. But this is the essence of the divide between players who say "I want a competitive list", where competitive to them means having roughly a 50% chance of beating their opponent and players who say "I want to play a list that can do well at a tournament"

The issue is that at the upper tournament level, you're not going to do well with an army like you described.

For example, say your opponent has 10 lascannons in his army. I would expect a well-rounded list to have somewhere in that neighborhood of anti tank weapons. What if you don't bring any monstrous creatures? What does he shoot at? Maybe some hive guard or a lictor. What if you don't bring any of those even? What if all of your models are either single wound or are characters that can't be targeted?

Suddenly, your opponent's lascannons are just really overpriced heavy bolters. The efficiency of many of his weapons goes down drastically.

This is why genestealers are so good right now. They have an invulnerable save, so any weapon that should ignore their armor save is just paying a bunch of points to be a really expensive bolter.

I'm not saying "go forth and buy Genestealers". But this is the essence of why spam works - not because those units are super OP OP (it helps if they are obviously). But take the storm raven list, for example. An individual or even two storm ravens? Eh. I've got lascannons for that (I mean we don't but most armies have something like that that kills tanks, whether they fly or not). Suddenly, though, even if I kill one, there's 4 more where those came from and they can kill all of my heavy weapons that threaten them. It's actually a list building strategy called redundancy. If you have 1 unit that can deal with flyers, and say you go second and they kill that unit. Well, then you've got a problem.

TLDR: Buy more Hydras

In all seriousness, though, just make sure that your list has redundancy. You don't need 5 of every unit, but you need to make sure that you don't just have 1 unit that can kill tanks, or just 1 unit that can kill terminators, etc. It's even worse if that 1 unit is the only unit that can do both of those things then you're really toast if it dies.

Imho you are right and not right at the same time.
It is very good to bring everything in redundancy. Your example with something killing tanks and killing terminators is fine. But you cannot bring 2-3 unit which can handle all of this like terminators, tanks, flyers, mass infantry. At least you cannot do that with spamming any tyranid units. That is why I think that all-in Genestealer armies will fail at every tournament at some point. (with all in I mean 75%+ of GS)
The other problem is that some armies have so amazing models, which can handle literally everything at once that they can do this tactics. 5 Stormravens is such a thing: They can kill everything from Conscripts to terminators to Knights. And they are very hard to kill themselves.
However, I again do not think that this is valid for Tyranids. A more mixed approach for them will be better. It also seems like jifel is also bringing a rather mixed force with heavy GS, some Termagants and shooting stuff. And he apparently knows how to play tournaments. It would be nice, if he could enlighten us at some point about his list...

Remark:
I think that Niiai did not want to bash the alliies guys in the first place, but wanted to simply give a reason why he voted for yes? But I might be wrong...
So let's focus on tyranid tactics and not fence fighting for once, okay?

This is hilarious Shuppet can't even let it go in this thread. Dear lord man you have a problem.

Luke I think you are right. More Trygons but even then, not sure I'd make it work.

One thing I would say is the Exocrine even though not that tough in the face of Las Cannons with 3 wounds STILL was taking out marines. It was the only thing in that list that really worked and when he doesn't have that many units he can't afford to be taking wounds like that was slinging out. The deployment can hurt you with 36 range but - was still the MVP in that match so two would have been great. That is the only decision I'm sure of in a pure Tyranid list.

The Termegant/tervigon seems like a solid really annoying thing to fight against and I think putting down 30 wounds is going to trouble a lot of people but the GK using GOI could have done it. Especially combined with autocannon dreads putting down 14 wounds or something BUT...if they do that they aren't shooting at anything else and that infantry is then exposed to the exocrines.

That might be a possibility but I'm not sure how it would fit in with any kind of list synergy.