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 Niiai wrote:
What do people use for synapse?

What do people think of 3 warriors with double scything tallons for 60 points?

I don't see a real reason to field them. They are not much cheaper than using Devourers on them (12 pts) and just gain +1 A each. They also will not do a lot in combat.
As a cheap synapse the Malanthrope is also far better, while not being much more expensive.


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 SHUPPET wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Tyrant is the best place in the ermy for the heavy venom cannon. I think it is good with a backup of other ranged weapons. Let it rip with the cannon. If you get lucky and do a lot of wounds you can down something with the backup of the other ranged weapons.

For more points it does less damage than the Deathspitter. If you are using it as artillery its wasted points for obvious reasons, so since you are advancing, the reasons to pick HVC over Deathspitters are very few.

A lot of enemies know about the limited range of the Tyranids Dakka. So they keep tanks and heavy weapons out of reach. The HVC obviously reaches far enough.
Also a HVC is better against T8 normally. And it is of course a weapon involving a lot of lucky dice rolling, but so are all D3/D6 weapons. The reason while you still take LasCans is, because you can take so many of them that you put the fortune in your direction.
So I would not suggest to use a lone guy with a HVC. But maybe 1-2 Tyrants with HVC, 2-3 Fexes with HVC and a Harpyie could perform fine. Not amazing of course....

Oh and personally I never use my Walkrant with HVC as artillery. He was advancing and then smashing face at some point. But since a Walkrant is quite slow, I want him to do something really usefull while walking.

Anyway I do not think it is necessary to discuss HVC from a totally competitive point of view. But like the one guy pointed out: If it is usable and not terrible, it is good enough for casual gamers.

I like the Venom Cannon as a weapon choice on a Tyranid Warrior. It gives the unit a chance to drop a few wounds on a hard target at range. I've noticed that ever bit of damage adds up for us, especially at range. Having that extra damage has helped me drop weapons down a tier or helped me destroy them when needed. Typically, it is on my unit that babysits my Hive Guard and Exocrine.

I have noticed that my babysitting warriors do almost nothing all game long.

With default devourers they are out of range of everything unless its like Deep-Striking Terminators, and in that case they still aren't doing any damage.

I usually add a Vencom Cannon or barbed Strangler just to give them something to do, and it just seems like a lot of points to occasionally take 1 wound off a vehicle or force a MEQ save.

Yeah probably the Malanthrope is the better choice. He is slightly more expensive then very cheap Warriors, but also protects your backfield shooters.
However, if something is deep striking you are all on your own. The Malanthrope will not do anything usefull then...

 Niiai wrote:
What do people use for synapse?

What do people think of 3 warriors with double scything tallons for 60 points?

for 30 more points you can get a malenthrope. Probably better if you just want synapse because it also makes things harder to kill and warriors don't have good backfield firepower anyways.


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Heavy Venom cannon is great. It's potential damage is the highest - which is why I put it on all my tyrants. Nothing is more threatening to nids than unblemished artillery pieces. The ability to reach out and punch light vehicles with big guns on the back lines is INVALUABLE and this army lacks weapons that can do this.. 6 More str 7 shots that deal one damage at 18 inch are barely a a drop in the barrel compared to what 15 devil gaunt can do.

Carnifex
The Big One. The living Legend. The battering ram. Okay...
The most iconic of all Tyranid monsters is of course running around 8th edition as well. You want to know, if it is any good? That is actually a very tough question and I am not sure about this at the moment myself. But one thing can be said about it: It is the most flexible of all Monsters!

So you can play the Carnifex in about 20 different loadouts. What should you use? My advice on this: Do not play a Dakkafex. Either play a Stone Crusher Carnifex or a Gun & Claw Fex (shooting weapon and melee weapon). I might write a separate article on the Stonecrusher later.

Why not the Dakkafex anymore? It is absolutely not terrible. It is way cheaper than before, going from something in the 140-160 pts region down to 99-120 pts. However there a many things, which have gotten worse.
- Devilgaunts outperform a Dakkafex on nearly every occassion. Period.
- Tanks and Monsters have about 3 times the wounds as before. You cannot one shot a Rhino anymore with a Dakkafex and it was easy before!
- Tanks have an armour Save now. More sadness...
- the weapons do not have twin-linked anymore. This is dropping the hits from 9 to 6 for a Dakkafex.
- the Fex will suck in melee!

Okay the Dakkafex can still put about the same amount of wounds on an infantery unit, I give him that. However, there are also a lot of units with multi-wounds and also the new wound chart hit the Dakkafex against lots of infantry units (MEQs).

So I would play them with a melee weapon + any shooting weapon. Also give them Adrenal Glands and Bioplasma. And then if you just run 1-2 do not expect that they will be amazing. In big numbers 4+ they can be quite scary, but also still vulnerable.
Personally I would even rather play a Screamer Killer Fex (2x Scything Talons, Bioplasma) than a Dakkafex. However, the Dakkafex might be quite good in an all-assault army with lots of Genestealers. To have a concentrated firepower basis for clearing enemy chaff units and putting some damage on vehicles etc.
But in the end, you should see them more like the monstrous version of Gants. They are cheap, vulnerable and can be thrown away if necessary.

ive been running two tyrants with Hvc in my recent lists, on eon foot (with lw/bonesword..yes.not the best combo but im a big fan of the classic nid loadouts look) and one flying with scytals. So far, both have performed well beyond my exepctations.
.
I dont play very competitve games mind, but ive found the high strength and relatively longer range of HVCs to be very useful for softening up hard targets before the charge. Definately recommend a couple in any army.

 Astmeister wrote:
Carnifex
The Big One. The living Legend. The battering ram. Okay...
The most iconic of all Tyranid monsters is of course running around 8th edition as well. You want to know, if it is any good? That is actually a very tough question and I am not sure about this at the moment myself. But one thing can be said about it: It is the most flexible of all Monsters!

So you can play the Carnifex in about 20 different loadouts. What should you use? My advice on this: Do not play a Dakkafex. Either play a Stone Crusher Carnifex or a Gun & Claw Fex (shooting weapon and melee weapon). I might write a separate article on the Stonecrusher later.

Why not the Dakkafex anymore? It is absolutely not terrible. It is way cheaper than before, going from something in the 140-160 pts region down to 99-120 pts. However there a many things, which have gotten worse.
- Devilgaunts outperform a Dakkafex on nearly every occassion. Period.
- Tanks and Monsters have about 3 times the wounds as before. You cannot one shot a Rhino anymore with a Dakkafex and it was easy before!
- Tanks have an armour Save now. More sadness...
- the weapons do not have twin-linked anymore. This is dropping the hits from 9 to 6 for a Dakkafex.
- the Fex will suck in melee!

Okay the Dakkafex can still put about the same amount of wounds on an infantery unit, I give him that. However, there are also a lot of units with multi-wounds and also the new wound chart hit the Dakkafex against lots of infantry units (MEQs).

So I would play them with a melee weapon + any shooting weapon. Also give them Adrenal Glands and Bioplasma. And then if you just run 1-2 do not expect that they will be amazing. In big numbers 4+ they can be quite scary, but also still vulnerable.
Personally I would even rather play a Screamer Killer Fex (2x Scything Talons, Bioplasma) than a Dakkafex. However, the Dakkafex might be quite good in an all-assault army with lots of Genestealers. To have a concentrated firepower basis for clearing enemy chaff units and putting some damage on vehicles etc.
But in the end, you should see them more like the monstrous version of Gants. They are cheap, vulnerable and can be thrown away if necessary.

I was thinking its a cheap source of T7 and 8 wounds, that is reasonably survivable (I was looking at shooting dreads the other day and its not that easy, this isn't that far off a dread) but the problem is, they aren't that cheap with wargear and if they aren't going to perform a specific task well I think they are too expensive.

Out of all the models you've reviewed or I've tried the only two I've gained a 100% measure of certainty on is Biovores and Exocrines for my personal list.

Well the Exocrine and the Biovore are rock solid. The other things I talked about are overlooked at the moment, because they are not that good actually. I wanted to cover some stuff no one talked about yet.
The fex is very meh often, but can be worth it. But even if you compare it to a Dreadnought it seems way worse. And the dread is not considered strong.

On the note of the biovores and roadblcking with mines.

Could the ripper swarms be a good road block? They are fearly inexpensive, come with 3 wound, 6" move and deep strike. If the ide is to block big things, pop them down in front of the landraider or battlewagon turn 1. They need to kill it, or you move and charge the thing you block. Now they have to move and can't shoot etc.

Good targets would be rhinoes, land raider, battlewagons etc. around 100 points give you 27 wounds.

That is an interesting point Niiai even if it doesn't change the game you are messing with their plans. Which psychologically, is probably quite important, and they aren't that small a base size. I'd throw 33p to stop a LR full of Assault units going where it wants to go...but then you won't stop them moving forward 8", is that enough? You come in at least 9" away right?

Astmeister that was more or less my thoughts, I really actually wanted to like them but just couldn't get there. I'm pleased we have some absolute certainty on at least two units

I feel like our HQ section is pretty weak, with the exception of the Tervigon which I wasn't remotely considering until I realised how good it was. Never mind T8 and 14 wounds which is amazing, not weak, but the sustainability of the Terms with it make it a pain in the ass for the opponent. I think that might be more important than the more expensive SW who is weaker just for the ability to catapult a unit forward.

Niiai wrote:On the note of the biovores and roadblcking with mines.

Could the ripper swarms be a good road block? They are fearly inexpensive, come with 3 wound, 6" move and deep strike. If the ide is to block big things, pop them down in front of the landraider or battlewagon turn 1. They need to kill it, or you move and charge the thing you block. Now they have to move and can't shoot etc.

Good targets would be rhinoes, land raider, battlewagons etc. around 100 points give you 27 wounds.

The problem is that they come out 9 inch away from the enemy. So they are not the same like Spore Mines from Biovores. As speed bumps they could be good however, since they have a lot of wounds. The question ist, if Tyranids do need speed bumps?

Jaq Draco lives wrote:That is an interesting point Niiai even if it doesn't change the game you are messing with their plans. Which psychologically, is probably quite important, and they aren't that small a base size. I'd throw 33p to stop a LR full of Assault units going where it wants to go...but then you won't stop them moving forward 8", is that enough? You come in at least 9" away right?

Astmeister that was more or less my thoughts, I really actually wanted to like them but just couldn't get there. I'm pleased we have some absolute certainty on at least two units

I feel like our HQ section is pretty weak, with the exception of the Tervigon which I wasn't remotely considering until I realised how good it was. Never mind T8 and 14 wounds which is amazing, not weak, but the sustainability of the Terms with it make it a pain in the ass for the opponent. I think that might be more important than the more expensive SW who is weaker just for the ability to catapult a unit forward.

The Broodlord is one of the best HQs in the game. So we have that at least. The Tervigon is super expensive, but can be worth it if you play 2+ big units of Gants. The Malanthrope is imho amazing as well. The Flyrants are still very good, but are fragile too. Walkrants are of course not very good and a Tyranid Prime is very situational.

What is so good about the Malanthrope? What is its points cost like 85p? Because I suppose 85p gets rid of an HQ tax and the -1 to shooting is worth it.

Broodlord, is tough, and makes GS tough, if he gets the unit into combat.

The Malanthrope costs 90. He is a character with 9 wounds, so can hide behind units and not be targeted. He also has synapse and SFTW. And the stuff about the -1 you already said.

A bit of a side question. I am trying to convert a Malanthrope. Do anybody know how tall it is? I don't wanne make it to short.

It's up to a Trygon's neck

I can work with that, thankyou.

So I had some time on my hands and thought I'd do some ratings for each of our units. Feel free to agree or disagree, a lot of this is based on theory and not experience as obviously I haven't trialled everything (far from it). My rating goes from A (autotake) to F (why would you ever take it). As such there aren't many As but I have given out a ton of Bs/Cs. Interested to see what people think!


HQs
Hive Tyrant - C+
A jack of all trades, master of none. Main weakness is being targetable, so Tyrant Guard (and potentially Catalyst/Malanthrope support) become almost necessary if you want them to live past T1. One of our best options point for point against flyers, if you can get them there, and reasonable but not spectacular shooting, melee and psychic support. Not a terrible option, but not the best.

Swarmlord - A-
A beast in combat. Only lower ranked than Malanthrope and Broodlord due to his cost and the need to support him with either Guard or a pod.

Broodlord - A
Cheap, provides psychic support, a monster in combat, buffs our best unit and cannot be targeted. What's not to like?

Tyranid Prime - D+/C
With Malanthropes as cheap as they are and Broodlords performing a similar role better, little reason to take him unless massing warriors or short on points. If the Malanthrope goes up in cost, he will at least have a niche as cheapest HQ.

Tervigon - B-
Pretty pricey for what it does, but actually somewhat scary in CC and a big force multiplier for one of our most points efficient units, Termagants.

Malanthrope - A/C+
If he remains at current price, definite auto-take imo. Cheapest HQ and an excellent buffer, especially if FaQed to affect units. If his price went up to 200 to match his power level, I think he would drop to around a C+, still a solid option, but much more situational as a firebase supporter.

Old One Eye - C+
An absolute wrecking ball in close combat - the problem is getting him there. Needs a pod or Hive Commander support, and is liable to die if caught in the open due to being a massive target. Don't rely on the Fex buff, though it's nice if possible to pull off.


Troops
Termagants - A
Some of our most points efficient shooting is Devourergants. Not only this, they can be replenished by Tervigons, arrive via pod or tunnel, and serve as our cheapest bubblewrap. An excellent option.

Hormagants - C+
These are viable for sure, but I think outclassed slightly by Gargoyles. The 6" consolidate and pile in is their niche, which is fantastic in theory, but very hard to make best use of in practice. Still, they will a troops slot and are by no means a bad choice.

Genestealers - A+
Absolute blenders. These will kill almost everything they touch and are reasonably cheap to boot. Some sort of delivery mechanism is a good idea, be it pod, Trygon, or Hive Commander - as is several units for redundancy, as they are such a huge threat they will be shot at on the way in. Only slight issue is Cult stealers are arguably better (especially at 10pts, though that may be FaQed) with inbulit delivery, but that doesn't detract from Hive Fleet stealers' excellence in a pure list.

Warriors - B-
A solid option. Cheap synapse anchor with the option for decent firepower and melee that works out quite points efficient. Can be delivered via pod or Trygon if a more close range build is desired (but why not take Shrikes?). Can be targeted out easily, but now synapse isn't as essential they should be lower priority.

Rippers - A-
Cheapest troops option and fantastic for popping up on an objective where needed. The only reason they aren't higher ranked is Genes and Termas share the slot!


Elites
Tyrant Guard - B-
Weird one to grade - if taking Swarmy and/or Tyrants that are not podding in, these are nigh essential for them to live past turn 1. That's their job and they do it well.

Hive Guard - B+
Excellent support shooting with Impalers - not high output, but huge utility in ignoring LoS. Shockcannons are brutal against vehicles but you will likely require a pod or Trygon to get in range for a (somewhat suicidal) attack.

Pyrovores - C-
No longer the worst unit in the game! I still don't see too much of a niche though, they are effective infantry killers but require a pod/Trygon to get there and we have tons of other stuff that does that job.

Venomthropes - C/B (B+)
Outclassed by the Malanthrope at its current cost. If it goes up to 200 (or thereabouts) then they will become more viable as a cheap option. Bracketed rating is if undersized units are permitted, in which case a lone Venom becomes an extremely solid cheap -1 to hit bubble.

Zoanthropes - D+ (B)
Main boon is in being a hugely resilient synapse anchor. However, when characters are a thing, this isn't as great as it sounds. Arguably beaten in mortal wound output by Biovores in particular, due to their range (and ignoring LoS). Since you probably also want 5 in the unit as a buffer to retain the special rules, you're at equivalent cost to a Flyrant, who offers a less scary smite but on a more mobile platform that can also contribute in melee and shooting. However, a lone Zoan if undersized units are allowed is a great cheap source of a Psy power, smite and synapse, thus getting a B.

Maleceptor - E+
As with Pyrovores, no longer terrible! But still nothing to write home about. One mortal wound per unit has highest output VS hordes, who also don't care about a single mortal wound. Aside from that it has little going for it, for the price, that something else doesn't do better.

Haruspex - D
Vastly improved - now a tank with scary potential damage. But sadly it still doesn't have enough attacks to justify its massive points cost, it just won't do enough damage.

Lictor - C
A good cheap harrassment unit. That said, in units of only 1, quite vulnerable to strong overwatch, and might fail to wipe stuff out. Still good for harrassing 5 man squads and the like - he's a bully, basically!

Deathleaper - D+
Very similar to the Lictor, but for double the cost a rule that will prevent him being able to be placed VS a smart opponent is more bad than good.

Red Terror - C-
Only useful if running tons of Raveners - if you are, worth it as a buffer.


Fast Attack
Gargoyles - B+
In my opinion, the best fast tarpit unit we have. Huge footprint for cheap (can easily multicharge several units), big move, fly to get over and surround enemy models, preventing fall back moves, and a nice potential debuff.

Sky-slashers - B-
Perform a pretty similar role to Gargoyles. A much more damaging and high wound tarpit VS infantry due to high atks/wounds per base, though obviously worse against anything that does multiple wounds. Blocks less ground due to smaller unit size, however.

Shrikes - B
Literally just faster warriors. Strictly superior in that sense, but they cost a bit more and don't fill troops. If you don't need troops slots and can spare the points, no reason not to upgrade frankly. The main benefits I see, however, is the ability to keep up with fast things that need synapse (Shrikes are now one of the best quick synapse options in the dex) and being able to charge flyers, which we are in dire need of - and might actually deal them some damage!

Raveners - C+
Not a bad unit, but their role overlaps with Shrikes and Genes. Genes are more killy, but less durable and lack an inbuilt delivery mechanism. Shrikes are less killy and lack delivery, but crucially provide synapse to the rest of your army. Personally I feel having inbuilt delivery is the clincher for them as their niche.

Harpy - C+
Main role is being able to move 30" and charge something. However, it can't be too nasty or the Harpy will die, and an opponent worth their salt will have bubble wrapped the shooty stuff you want to tag. Still a very handy option to have though. I feel it outclasses the Crone with decent shooting, the option to dish out mortal wounds (potentially on characters) it flies over, and the Shriek for utility.

Crone - C
Very similar to the Harpy - exact same applies about 30" move shenanigans, though it is marginally better in combat. However, its other options are far worse in my opinion - tentaclids still only tickle vehicles, and the drool cannon is alright but not exciting. It is cheaper than a Harpy, but I'd rather pay a bit more and get more.

Dimachaeron - C-
Extremely quick and Str10, but that's really his main benefit. Relative to other monsters, only having AP-2 and D3 damage really hurts, as does only having T6 (since getting the Invuln up quick is far from guaranteed). He is best against moderate save (4-5+) very high T (7-8) units without too many wounds - which don't exist. Despite Str10, low damage and AP hamstring him against vehicles, whilst he doesn't have enough attacks to muder large numbers. Still, a very fast and scary distraction Carnifex.

Spore Mines - B-
Easier to hide than Mucolids, but less efficient in terms of mortal wounds per point. Clincher is more expensive min units.

Mucolids - B
20pt slot fillers, with great blocking potential and can't be entirely ignored due to mortal wounds. If you need more stuff in reserve, or to fill slots for cheap, these are your.. blobs?

Meiotics - C+
More expensive than the other two spore options, however, due to what is effectively Infiltration, they are fantastic movement/deep strike blockers, and pose a more scary threat of mortal wounds to advancing foes. Thus serve a different role, but one nothing else in the army does.


Heavy Support
Carnifexes - C
Received a big price drop and as such, are a lot better than they once were! However, barring VS elite infantry like Termies or Nid Warriors, they are outclassed in melee by the next option. This leaves dakkafexes as viable builds, and with the effective nerf (not doubling shots due to previously being twin-linked), these are not as nasty as they once were. Still, they can put out some nasty firepower, so are definitely still an option, and even melee fexes are slightly faster and cheaper than crushers.

Stonecrushers - C+
Absolutely brutal against both hordes (with the flail) and tougher stuff (with the claw). If you want a melee Fex, you'd be hard pressed not to want to go with one of these. The issue, as ever is getting them there. Whilst Monstrous Brood is nice to keep your drops down, it does mean Hive Commander only works on a single model. Generally, these guys will need a first wave to tie up the enemy while they make it in.

Trygon - B
The model itself isn't that great - definitely scary in close combat, but also deceptively fragile. However, the real benefit comes in its bringing a unit along in its tunnel whilst also serving as a melee threat. In general the Pod is a more versatile transport, allowing monsters, but the Trygon does allow for full 30 Gant/Gaunt squads to accompany it. It is slightly pricier, and whilst worse at shooting, is much more scary in general.

Trygon Prime - B-
Exactly the same as the Trygon, but with 1 more attack that isn't a tail one, double the shots (meh), and synapse - for a fairly noticeable increase in price. If short on fast synapse, you probably want to consider this, but otherwise, I would always go for a Trygon.

Mawloc - B-
No longer quite as destructive as he was in 7th, but an excellent sniper with mortal wounds, distraction Fex, and fall back preventer. Not the autotake he used to be (largely as we had no other good options), but a strong choice for a bargain points cost.

Toxicrene - D-
Cheap and his shooting and Miasma are devastating, particularly to large model count units. However, we have lots of things that kill infantry (and do other things), and he deterioriates really quite badly. Not awful, but one of our weaker options.

Exocrine - A
By all accounts provides pretty devastating firepower - probably our scariest shooting unit. It is very immobile, so be sure to position it well, and needs synapse and potentially -1 to hit buffs (hello Malanthrope) as he is a huge target. But at least its also T8! Might still be wise to bring two for redundancy though - it's that good.

Tyrannofex - D+
One of those cases of very close to being good. He is extremely tanky, which is why he costs so much, but his firepower just doesn't quite make it. Rupture cannon is potentially amazing, but is very CP thirsty; Fleshborer Hive and Acid Spray are too short range to easily make use of the non-moving bonus. If you can stand still, the hive in particular becomes a highly efficient infantry killer, but that's unlikely to happen.

Biovore - B+
A similar role to the Hive Guard with Impaler - indirect firepower. Less damaging on the face of it, but reliable mortal wound output for a cheap price. More important, arguably, is the utility of being able to drop spore mines to block enemy movement where desired (move so you have a 2/3 chance to!) Has come out very well from the edition change.


Fortification
Sporocyst - F
I just... really can't see why you would want to take one of these!


Dedicated transport
Tyrannocyte - B
Very similar role to the Trygon. The main benefit is being able to carry an MC - Swarmy or OoE being two solid options. Issue is, most struggle to make a 9" charge so melee monsters can be left out in the cold (unless you Hive Commander them of course). Can actually output a decent amount of damage VS hordes with 5 Barbed Stranglers too, if you want to pay for them.


Lord of War
Barbed Hierodule - C
Both Hierodules are decent now for the points. Barbie is nice in that his melee doesn't depreciate with damage, but his shooting is a bit lacklustre, having been downed to S8. It's a tough call to make, but i am leaning on the side of the Scythed version, purely due to more CC damage potential (when not <1/4 wounds).

Scythed Hierodule - C+
Pretty nasty in CC, but still isn't going to be soloing a Knight with ease. That said, he will smash most vehicles with relative ease. His gun is short range but pretty nasty. In general, since you probably want these guys in combat asap, I think to more choppy one is better.

Harridan - E
A more expensive Hierodule that can fly, but crucially is only S7 T7. And this I feel is its downfall - it's excellent to fly 30" into combat and deposit 20 Gargoyles out, but like the Dima, it just isn't quite nasty enough VS the stuff it needs to be, especially with the mediocre Bio-cannon. For the price, it should do more, essentially.

Heirophant - B-
Note: This costing is quite speculative and is with a mind to facing other similar titans in BIG games. In a normal game I would not recommend taking one! But in titan on titan comparisons, he comes out quite favourably, with absolutely brutal Macro shooting, and a ton of wounds, for a reasonable price (for a titan...) Unlike last edition when he was an overcosted mess liable to do little but die to D first turn!

I think your grating is very good.
Personally I would have rated some thing differently.

The major differences:

Maleceptor - D+ (can be okay)

Mawlocks - C (to situational and don't achieve enough)

Sporocyst - C (can be really nice, but seems too expensive)

I would have given Biovores an A as if there is any value to their utility and clearly there is, at 33p they are cheap enough to be an autoinclude to me

I would just correct the part where it says that biovores average more mortal wounds per point than a zoan, which is not true.

Spoletta wrote:
I would just correct the part where it says that biovores average more mortal wounds per point than a zoan, which is not true.

Yeah I know a few people have said they are quite unreliable in the damage they give out when you are on the table.

what is it 0.5 wound average per turn?

Yeah. Unless you move him. I supoose somebody wants to miss sometimes. Vs super heavies, battlewagons and landraiders etc.

I was thinking about another babysitter for the backfield shooting units.

What about that?

Hive Tyrant
Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Rending Claws, Prehensile Pincer Tail
174 pts

Exocrine
3x Biovores
3x Hive Guard

The Tyrant is more expensive than 3 Warriors, but is way more potent in melee and has serious long range shooting. The melee is not wasted on him I think, because most armies will drop something in your backfield anyway to get rid of the firebase of Exocrine, Biovores and Hive Guard.

Of course you can also use a different fire base like 3x Exocrines, more Biovores or more Hive Guard for this...

I agree with pretty much all the ratings and the reasonings behind them.

Big one for me was you rating the Scythed Hierodule over the Barbed. Couldn't agree more, I've tested both using Swarmy to slingshot them and the Scythed is just far more deadly.

I think most people prefer the Barbed because of the gun but when you both play and mathammer these guys the Scythed puts the Barbed to shame.

The barb's gun for what the unit cost is louzy against flyers and vehicles. It has 5 attacks (6 RAW due to have 2 scytals but expect this to be FAQd) vs the Scythed's 8 attacks. The Scythed on average does 15 wounds to a Leman Russ or 12 wounds to a Landraider with its flamer and talons.

I'd say on its own it is probably a C+ but Swarmy and the Scythed together are undefeated for me. Get Hive Commander, Catalyst and Onslaught onto him and he's unstoppable

But the melee power of the scythed degrade, where the barbed stays the same.

 Astmeister wrote:
But the melee power of the scythed degrade, where the barbed stays the same.

Well not entirely true.

Discounting the fact that the Barbed's biggest draw is its shooting and it goes out the window quicker than the Scythed's melee

At 1-5 the thing is cactus anyway.

At full wounds it's 8 3+ vs 5 3+

At 6-10 it's 6 4+ vs 4 3+

So with RR 1s at 6-10 that's 4.5 vs 3.1 in favour of the Scythed.

At 1 - 5 it's 1.33 vs 2.33 in favour of the Barbed, however the Barbed is BS6+ at these wounds

Astmeister wrote:I think your grating is very good.
Personally I would have rated some thing differently.

The major differences:

Maleceptor - D+ (can be okay)

Mawlocks - C (to situational and don't achieve enough)

Sporocyst - C (can be really nice, but seems too expensive)

D+ puts the Mal on a par with Zoans, which I don't think is the case really. Mawlocs admittedly don't have huge impact, but like last edition its the threat they create that is useful - they alter the enemy's deployment and can block lines of retreat. Maybe unusable is a little uncharitable for the cyst, but for an immobile unit it does very little - I'd rather take some of the better imperial fortifications. I do think it is clearly the worst unit in our list, however.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:I would have given Biovores an A as if there is any value to their utility and clearly there is, at 33p they are cheap enough to be an autoinclude to me

I feel like Biovores value is tied to Hive Guard, who perform a very similar role. I wouldn't be surprised to see them creep up to an A- if their mine creation can be used for some as yet unforseen shenanigans, but I am inclined to say they are not that autoinclude as not every army needs what they provide.

Spoletta wrote:I would just correct the part where it says that biovores average more mortal wounds per point than a zoan, which is not true.

Ah, good catch! Though depending on model numbers the advantage is fairly minimal. I guess the range and LoS ignoring is the main thing.

Zande4 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
But the melee power of the scythed degrade, where the barbed stays the same.

Well not entirely true.

Spoiler:

Discounting the fact that the Barbed's biggest draw is its shooting and it goes out the window quicker than the Scythed's melee

At 1-5 the thing is cactus anyway.

At full wounds it's 8 3+ vs 5 3+

At 6-10 it's 6 4+ vs 4 3+

So with RR 1s at 6-10 that's 4.5 vs 3.1 in favour of the Scythed.

At 1 - 5 it's 1.33 vs 2.33 in favour of the Barbed, however the Barbed is BS6+ at these wounds

Barbed does outperform in melee on the lowest tier of wounds, but since they can both fire out of combat with infantry, I think scythes' total damage potential is still higher at that tier due to its autohitting gun, whilst barby is blindly slinging shots everywhere...

Players are all rating individual units and discussing about putting rending claws or talons on their hive tyrants. It all useless if you don't look at the compleet picture and the synergy between the different units that make an army. Doing the math on a hive tyrant setting is useless if it gets shot to pieces right away.

It's a lot of 'paper/rock/scissors situations anyway and it depends on the missions and 'meta' how things will evolve. A bunch of MC's running forward could make you win the mission (board control) but it will not win a tournament. In this edition the armies that could effectively wipe others of the board are the big winners.

GSC Genestealers are a great deal but every army can effectively make units deepstrike/reserve at a save distance. Astra M army only needs about 3 scout sentinals and those genestealers are better off deploying normally then using cult ambush. And after that the get shot to pieces.

Benlisted wrote:

Meiotics - C+
More expensive than the other two spore options, however, due to what is effectively Infiltration, they are fantastic movement/deep strike blockers, and pose a more scary threat of mortal wounds to advancing foes. Thus serve a different role, but one nothing else in the army does.

I got a shooty tyranid army and if I'am allowed forgeworld models then these are a must have so thats a A+ score for me. The create a 24+ inch bubble 'get of my lawn' bubble against deep strike/reserve units.

shogun wrote:

Players are all rating individual units and discussing about putting rending claws or talons on their hive tyrants. It all useless if you don't look at the compleet picture and the synergy between the different units that make an army.

Agreed - I think the main purpose of rating units is so people wanting to get into the army know whether basing it around, say, 3 toxicrenes, is a good or bad idea. The necron thread for instance gives a really useful set of at a glance info on the relative viability of the units. I was trying to do something similar. Obviously a more experienced player won't have really any use at all for such a crude measure!

Benlisted wrote:

Meiotics - C+
More expensive than the other two spore options, however, due to what is effectively Infiltration, they are fantastic movement/deep strike blockers, and pose a more scary threat of mortal wounds to advancing foes. Thus serve a different role, but one nothing else in the army does.

I got a shooty tyranid army and if I'am allowed forgeworld models then these are a must have so thats a A+ score for me. The create a 24+ inch bubble 'get of my lawn' bubble against deep strike/reserve units.

I agree again. As you say though, it's most useful as a keep-away for a shooty list, melee ones are less bothered by it. That said, maybe I was a bit low ooh the rating, especially compared to the other spores, though they do serve a different purpose.