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do you guys find that forge world stuff is balanced?
do most places allow it in tournaments?
do you use it in normal matched play games?

Wow i haven't seen this question in a while.

Is it balanced? currently no one knows. its too early to say but it seems like a few stuff is ether broken or rushed out from forge worlds side (broken as it it needs an FAQ to function (tau tigershark with macro cannon))

Tournaments you need to ask them.

ask your local group if they want to play with or against it. they have points so you can totally play them in match play


the only places i know that may straight up not allow it is some GW stores as its something that they cannot sell. but that is up to the individual red shirt.

Its as balanced as core GW stuff is. That is - most of it is fine and then there will be overcosted garbage and then there will be undercosted WAAC models that are spammed.

The last time I saw anyone try to stop FW from being allowed was when GW didn't say it was "official"... back in the early 6th edition 40k days. Since they came out and said FW was "official" that argument died on the vine.

It's fine in my opinion, and has the exact same potential as any models that GW puts out to be spammed and abused.

I think FW models are generally accepted now, mostly because GW began making super heavy models in the past 10 years or so. Before that FW more or less ment bringing super heavies, which were difficult to deal with and unless you also had a bunch of money to buy your own super heavies. Now you can buy a BaneBlade or Knight from GW and they are as good, if not better than the FW equivilants.

thanks all.
i was looking at some of the guard weapons batteries like the manticore and basilisk.
aside from the manticore being able to fire all of its missiles on the first turn it just seemed like they may be a little questionable since they are so cheap when compared to the standard AM versions.
i just noticed that the manticore battery is also lacking the "doesn't need to be able to see its target" verbiage as well. so odd...

What I have seen (which I will admit is far from everything), I'm going with not balanced, but that is nothing new, FW is notorious for putting out either super broken powerful rules, or over priced garbage.

My biggest complaints so far are

1.) In the base Game T8 is uncommon and T9 is basically unheard of, in FW the latter seems pretty common.

2.) They have a lot of weapons with Dx + y damage, meaning they reliably do more damage than most base game units which either have random, or fixed damage.

3.)Too many things just seem to be 1 step up on the basic rules for no particular reason.

Once codices come out things might be different but right now it seems GW indices are bland toned down units for the most part (not that some are not strong), and FW has more bells and whistles.

I would be for banning FW unit codices are released, but I'd be willing to try playing against it to have my mind changed.

After the Wraithknight, arguments on 'FW is OP while GW os ok' have no base at all.

However, the latest FW indexes came with so many problems that I think it's wise to keep them at arms distance until FW FAQs them. Chaos and Marines alreasy were, at least.

FW was clearly rushed and not as balanced as the core stuff. They regained some confidence by implementing point changes in the FAQ.

Breng77 wrote:
What I have seen (which I will admit is far from everything), I'm going with not balanced, but that is nothing new, FW is notorious for putting out either super broken powerful rules, or over priced garbage.

My biggest complaints so far are

1.) In the base Game T8 is uncommon and T9 is basically unheard of, in FW the latter seems pretty common.

2.) They have a lot of weapons with Dx + y damage, meaning they reliably do more damage than most base game units which either have random, or fixed damage.

3.)Too many things just seem to be 1 step up on the basic rules for no particular reason.

Once codices come out things might be different but right now it seems GW indices are bland toned down units for the most part (not that some are not strong), and FW has more bells and whistles.

I would be for banning FW unit codices are released, but I'd be willing to try playing against it to have my mind changed.

1) The T9+ can be categorised into Astartes Superheavies (Cerberus, Fellblade, Stormbird etc.), Exalted Greater Daemon of Nurgle, Titans (normal ones and the Knight Porphyrion), massive fortifications (Imperial Fortress Walls, Necron Tomb Citadel...), Eldar Titans and Bray'arth Ashmantle. The one reason it seems to be common is because the units are huge and/or incredibly well armoured and limiting them to the same toughness as normal heavy vehicles would be silly. Why limit units to T8 when you have a scale that can go beyond that? I think at least Land Raiders or Monoliths could have been T9 as well.

2) This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it gives them a less swingy damage profile. In fact, making everything random was probably a mistake by GW.

3) And many of GW's things are simply a step up of their own. If we're talking about more expensive ones, such as the Fellblade, it was designed to be a better Baneblade. If we're talking straight up better ones (Earthshaker Platform vs Basilisk), then yes, some of the FW units are better. But the basic idea of FW was to design units with more bells and whistles, and there is nothing wrong with designing a Mars-Alpha Leman Russ when you already have a normal one. I consider it a failure on GW's part that they have made so many bland and uninteresting units.


But the general problem with many of Forge World's units are that you don't see them often enough. In tournaments, people will take whatever is superior. If a Forge World heavy support is the best in slot, you will take that one unit (Skathach Wraithknight comes to mind), and you will never use the ones which are inferior. This means that the most commonly encountered units being the most broken ones, and since Forge World is more niche, the balanced units are only rarely seen, leading to the perception that most of FW's units are overpowered. This problem exists for codex units as well, but they are both cheaper and easier to get for the general playerbase as they are usually stocked in your LGS.

Right now, Forge World is in a bad state because of the rushed indices, but it should not reflect on your perception of their units and once we get some FAQ/Errata, I think we'll be a better spot.

Edit: I'd just give a good comparison. The Atlas Recovery Tank is T7 W11 3+, and armed with a heavy bolter. The only distinct ability it has is that it can repair a single vehicle within 3" for D3 wounds once per turn. 98 points. The Trojan is T7 W10 3+, armed with a heavy bolter, and it can make a single vehicle within 6" re-roll any failed hits during shooting. 98 points.

I have never seen nor can I imagine anyone taking an Atlas. It deals very little damage and it generally heals a vehicle for 2 wounds per turn. For those points, you could have 4 Lascannon Teams or 12 Mortar Teams. Yes, healing my wounded tanks are nice but as it is generally better to cripple one than glance two, I don't see much value in it. Compare this to the Trojan, which can increase any tanks shooting by a lot (Giving us a 75% chance to hit instead of 50% for BS4+). If you buff a Baneblade, you get 50% more shooting for for less than 20% of the cost! That one is really good if you can team it up with a superheavy tank, but quite balanced if you give it to a Leman Russ.

Or another, shorter comparison. The Death Korps army list is about equal to the AM one, with some bonuses for a slight cost both in points and available equipment and units, but overall I think it's a quite balanced list compared to GW's AM. The Renegades and Heretics Army list is straight up worse, as your unique units are almost as expensive while being much less effective. Meanwhile, in the Elysian corner, every unit has Deep Strike, giving us untold opportunities to get plasma guns within 9", and I believe the list itself might be one of the very best in the game.

Besides a brief foray in Warhammer Fantasy 25 years ago, My experience with the hobby started in early 7th so there is a lot I don't know. My question is, aren't GW and Forgeworld part of the same corporation? So you are telling me in the past GW said forgeworld models were not official? That is crazy.

I use a Kharybdis Assault Claw and, while some of my opponents would disagree, it is perfectly balanced. It gets easily blown to bits by concentrated fire while having the ability to dish out a metric feth ton of damage should it be allowed to live.

ITC has decided for the BAO that they won't allow any single model with a PL of 31 and up, which eliminates a lot of the super huge FW units. I expect we will see more tournaments do this and it will start to become the norm in matched play.

 Aenarian wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
What I have seen (which I will admit is far from everything), I'm going with not balanced, but that is nothing new, FW is notorious for putting out either super broken powerful rules, or over priced garbage.

My biggest complaints so far are

1.) In the base Game T8 is uncommon and T9 is basically unheard of, in FW the latter seems pretty common.

2.) They have a lot of weapons with Dx + y damage, meaning they reliably do more damage than most base game units which either have random, or fixed damage.

3.)Too many things just seem to be 1 step up on the basic rules for no particular reason.

Once codices come out things might be different but right now it seems GW indices are bland toned down units for the most part (not that some are not strong), and FW has more bells and whistles.

I would be for banning FW unit codices are released, but I'd be willing to try playing against it to have my mind changed.

1) The T9+ can be categorised into Astartes Superheavies (Cerberus, Fellblade, Stormbird etc.), Exalted Greater Daemon of Nurgle, Titans (normal ones and the Knight Porphyrion), massive fortifications (Imperial Fortress Walls, Necron Tomb Citadel...), Eldar Titans and Bray'arth Ashmantle. The one reason it seems to be common is because the units are huge and/or incredibly well armoured and limiting them to the same toughness as normal heavy vehicles would be silly. Why limit units to T8 when you have a scale that can go beyond that? I think at least Land Raiders or Monoliths could have been T9 as well.

2) This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it gives them a less swingy damage profile. In fact, making everything random was probably a mistake by GW.

3) And many of GW's things are simply a step up of their own. If we're talking about more expensive ones, such as the Fellblade, it was designed to be a better Baneblade. If we're talking straight up better ones (Earthshaker Platform vs Basilisk), then yes, some of the FW units are better. But the basic idea of FW was to design units with more bells and whistles, and there is nothing wrong with designing a Mars-Alpha Leman Russ when you already have a normal one. I consider it a failure on GW's part that they have made so many bland and uninteresting units.


But the general problem with many of Forge World's units are that you don't see them often enough. In tournaments, people will take whatever is superior. If a Forge World heavy support is the best in slot, you will take that one unit (Skathach Wraithknight comes to mind), and you will never use the ones which are inferior. This means that the most commonly encountered units being the most broken ones, and since Forge World is more niche, the balanced units are only rarely seen, leading to the perception that most of FW's units are overpowered. This problem exists for codex units as well, but they are both cheaper and easier to get for the general playerbase as they are usually stocked in your LGS.

Right now, Forge World is in a bad state because of the rushed indices, but it should not reflect on your perception of their units and once we get some FAQ/Errata, I think we'll be a better spot.

Edit: I'd just give a good comparison. The Atlas Recovery Tank is T7 W11 3+, and armed with a heavy bolter. The only distinct ability it has is that it can repair a single vehicle within 3" for D3 wounds once per turn. 98 points. The Trojan is T7 W10 3+, armed with a heavy bolter, and it can make a single vehicle within 6" re-roll any failed hits during shooting. 98 points.

I have never seen nor can I imagine anyone taking an Atlas. It deals very little damage and it generally heals a vehicle for 2 wounds per turn. For those points, you could have 4 Lascannon Teams or 12 Mortar Teams. Yes, healing my wounded tanks are nice but as it is generally better to cripple one than glance two, I don't see much value in it. Compare this to the Trojan, which can increase any tanks shooting by a lot (Giving us a 75% chance to hit instead of 50% for BS4+). If you buff a Baneblade, you get 50% more shooting for for less than 20% of the cost! That one is really good if you can team it up with a superheavy tank, but quite balanced if you give it to a Leman Russ.

Or another, shorter comparison. The Death Korps army list is about equal to the AM one, with some bonuses for a slight cost both in points and available equipment and units, but overall I think it's a quite balanced list compared to GW's AM. The Renegades and Heretics Army list is straight up worse, as your unique units are almost as expensive while being much less effective. Meanwhile, in the Elysian corner, every unit has Deep Strike, giving us untold opportunities to get plasma guns within 9", and I believe the list itself might be one of the very best in the game.

1.) I agree with there is no reason to have limited things to T8, but my point is for whatever reason GW did, and if a land raider is T8 things like Brayarth shouldn't be T9 (especially with the character rule, a 2+ save, and 4+ "FNP"), you can argue that Landraiders and Monoliths should be T9 or 10, but they aren't, so FW stuff being such is a significant difference. I mean things like the Stompa and Baneblade are also not T9 so why are so many FW things? For super expensive stuff ok, but things like the stompa are almost 1000 points, and don't have T9. Should it be the top no-not necessarily, but if Dreadnaughts (like brayarth) have higher T, it seems a bit off, (when they also have a better save, and FNP) For me why not make Brayarth +1 T on a regular dread (so T8) and 2+ save, and give him maybe 5+ FNP, then instead of giving him his own special flamers, give him dual flamestorm cannons. You would make him a bit cheaper, but it would make more sense, instead of making him impossible to kill.

2.) See response 1, in principle I agree, but when GW didn't do this for anything and FW does, it makes a line where some things are just way better (take the necron pylon that can fairly easily oneshot a stompa, or basically any other vehicle).

3.) This is where I have problems with FW, I would rather their design just be alternate versions, not ones with more bells and whistles. So you want a Mars Pattern Leman Russ, cool, but it should function basically like a leman russ, maybe with different (appropriately costed) weapon choices.


I agree that there is an issue with people taking broken stuff en masse, and that it happens on both sides, and it is bad on both sides (Fw and Not), I do feel though that the current GW stuff has seen more testing and was less rushed than the FW stuff. Part of me really wishes FW would no longer write unit rules, and that GW would just release rules for all models (FW and otherwise), as I think the design vision would be more balanced.

Claas wrote:
Besides a brief foray in Warhammer Fantasy 25 years ago, My experience with the hobby started in early 7th so there is a lot I don't know. My question is, aren't GW and Forgeworld part of the same corporation? So you are telling me in the past GW said forgeworld models were not official? That is crazy.

They are the same company, but the rules are written by different people, seemingly without reguard for game balance. This used to be a lot worse in 5th edition etc, when most fw units were basically apocalypse only with very powerful abilities and points that doesn't always make sense.

Now most of the units are in line with 40k rules and stats, but there are always few things that are possibly too powerful for their points. There is also the issue of some of the very large units (mostly the things with 30+ power level) simply being too powerful to be balanced in games under 2000 points, whether they are forge world or not. Mostly it is up to TOs to communicate with their players and see if they enjoy playing with these models or not.

The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Nah, there is some FW stuff that is way more unbalanced than the GW stuff as far as NPE are concerned.

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

And your 8th ed examples are? I think if we saw more FW stuff you may not feel the same way. Yeah 7th was a giant mess, but if the idea is that 8th is addressing that, and FW stuff doesn't fit the same mold I would think it is a problem.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

Let go of that anger. What right now is more unbalanced than the current FW?

The comment you're quoting is talking about indexes, not 7th.

 Purifier wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

Let go of that anger. What right now is more unbalanced than the current FW?

I'd say 2 point brims and storm ravens are worse than most FW personally.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

Let go of that anger. What right now is more unbalanced than the current FW?

I'd say 2 point brims and storm ravens are worse than most FW personally.

"most"? I mean, no one is saying that everything FW is OP.

I feel like a T9 landraider would be a terrible idea. It's cost would need to shoot way up as S8/9 weapons would be crippled and S10 weapons are not terribly common either.

The landraider is quite survivable already.

Fw problems outside sloppy rushed rules that I expect to be updated constantly to be balanced like 8th is suppose to be doing.
1) inconsistent rules updates (it wasn't uncommon for people to play 7th ed with 5th ed rules) no idea if this is changing in 8th
2) 1 uping gw rules for no reason but to sell models
3) models are expensive and constantly go out of production to never be seen from again leading to A LOT of fw models being recast or entire armies like dkok. There is a reason why most recaster catalogs are mostly fw.
4) which leads us to the fact many flgs and some gw stores don't allow fw models. Because they don't sell them.

So this brings up ur request of the basilisk carriage which fw no longer sells. So your either scratch building which I've rarely ever seen while playing this game or buying from z or another recaster. There isn't even a listing on eBay for this model so you can't even play that card. So what's the reason to play forgeworld? So you can play select overpowered undercosted models stolen by recasters. I don't see how in any shape or form this is healthy for the game.

Saying that my entire guard army is dkok w some steel legion models as conscripts. I like the look of them and have excess cash so why not. I'm not against forgeworld in games as I like more models but I honestly never thought it is healthy for the game.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
do you guys find that forge world stuff is balanced?

No, but neither is GW, really. GW has a history of much more egregious balance issues than FW, and FW tends to err on the underpowered side. However... a larger % of FW units are OP than the % of GW units.

do most places allow it in tournaments?

Never been to one.

do you use it in normal matched play games?

I have never met someone who would allow me to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like a T9 landraider would be a terrible idea. It's cost would need to shoot way up as S8/9 weapons would be crippled and S10 weapons are not terribly common either.

The landraider is quite survivable already.

Should be T10 and W25, with a 2++.

 Selym wrote:

Should be T10 and W25, with a 2++.

Not sure if serious...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Should be T10 and W25, with a 2++.

Not sure if serious...

I think all Space Marines should have T5 and W5

 Selym wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Should be T10 and W25, with a 2++.

Not sure if serious...

I think all Space Marines should have T5 and W5

I think all Skitarii should have movement 48". Because of their long legs.

 Purifier wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Should be T10 and W25, with a 2++.

Not sure if serious...

I think all Space Marines should have T5 and W5

I think all Skitarii should have movement 48". Because of their long legs.

I thing Rawbutt should have a pair of bolters that fire 120" St20 Ap-5 Assault 200, because he's a genius that can do anything.

EDIT: The word "think" keeps showing up as "thing" after I post or edit. I have no idea why.

Forgeworld is not balanced. While in general it may not be too broken, there are a few isolated cases where they have made a unit far too strong for its price, but that's all you're going to see, because competitive players will spam them.

People are talking about how strong Roboute is but you don't see Ultramarines /w Roboute dominating the tournaments. His greatest strength is buffing what is around him, and that stuff dies just as fast as ever. Azrael is actually a stronger force multiplier due to the 4++ bubble.

 Purifier wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
The worst unbalanced stuff is in the GW indexes. That being said FW allways have som underpowered or overpowered things.

Pretty much this. GW has done much, much worse with balancing their own models than FW ever did - look at 7ed Riptide Wing, Grav weapons, ANYTHING Eldar...

Let go of that anger. What right now is more unbalanced than the current FW?

I'd say 2 point brims and storm ravens are worse than most FW personally.

"most"? I mean, no one is saying that everything FW is OP.

But he did awnser your question.