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The Veterans of the Long War Stratagem only works on Infantry and Bikes.

 XT-1984 wrote:
The Veterans of the Long War Stratagem only works on Infantry and Bikes.

Gah, so it does. I really need to get the CSM codex so that I can read all of this stuff for myself, then I might actually remember what does what on who.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And still, without VotLW, the Fire Raptor with +1 to hit does a tasty 12 1/2 wounds to a T7/8 3+ save flyer which is enough to cripple whatever your firing at and maybe enough to bring it down depending on the flyer. And if the flyer hovers or doesn't have -1 to hit, then the Raptor does more like 15 1/2 wounds.

A whirlwind hyperios is only 120 pts. Its hyperios launcher is 72", heavy 2D3, S8, AP-2, D3. Add 1 to hit FLY. This weapon can target units not visible to the firing model.

Why do you need anything specifically anti-air? Just take an extra Dev Squad armed with either Plasma or Lascannons and then shoot the flyer out of the sky. -1 to hit gives your SMs a 50/50 to hit, against 8 Lascannons that is 4+ hits (Cherub and Signum) wounding on 3s gives you 3 wounds at -3AP so probably all go through and then D6 damage = 10.5 wounds on average, more then enough to seriously wound a flyer or kill it if you get slightly better then average rolls. Worst case scenario it takes you 2 turns to kill the flyer.

A 8 model dev squad with lascans is 260 pts. If i see that i deepstrike and take them out. They die quite easily.

p5freak wrote:
A 8 model dev squad with lascans is 260 pts. If i see that i deepstrike and take them out. They die quite easily.

Because as we know, opponents will always leave their most valuable units exposed without any cover and completely vulnerable to you.

I played against a Girlyman player in a tournament who brought 2 Predator Annihilators next to Girlyman and a few other things like Asscan Razorbacks and Plasma Primaris Marines. Everything he had was TL and had Shred (reroll to wound) He also was castled up in a corner of the map where the only place you could drop in on him was 9in directly in front of his army. That list right there versus any flyer in the game would have won easily. 8 TL Lascanons rerolling wounds against a T7 Flyer = 6 Hits, 5 wounds and about 15-20 damage.

So against that guy what would you deepstrike in to kill his predator annihilators? Ohh and he also had that Banner dude with an apothocary nearby so if you actually did kill an infantry model it got to shoot at you and then had a 50/50 to come back to life again. So again, what are you deepstriking in front of that army to kill his 2 predator annihilators or 2 squads of Devastators?

This may sound crazy but what about plasma scions? The problem I have with spending 200 points on a flyer or two (or anything really) is that it becomes a huge bullet magnet turn one. If you go second and they're running two storm ravens or whatever your AA is probably dead. Plasma Scions on the other hand can be anywhere anytime and do a but load of damage. Now the dead on a roll of 2 can hurt a lot but still if your opponent is relying on a flyer or two carrying their army to victory it's worth a couple of dead scions. And if there are no flyers, let's say deepstriking terminators, they'll be just as dead at a time and place of your choosing.

SemperMortis wrote:

Because as we know, opponents will always leave their most valuable units exposed without any cover and completely vulnerable to you.

Makes no sense to hide a dev squad, they need LOS to shoot.

SemperMortis wrote:

I played against a Girlyman player in a tournament who brought 2 Predator Annihilators next to Girlyman and a few other things like Asscan Razorbacks and Plasma Primaris Marines. Everything he had was TL and had Shred (reroll to wound) He also was castled up in a corner of the map where the only place you could drop in on him was 9in directly in front of his army. That list right there versus any flyer in the game would have won easily. 8 TL Lascanons rerolling wounds against a T7 Flyer = 6 Hits, 5 wounds and about 15-20 damage.

So against that guy what would you deepstrike in to kill his predator annihilators? Ohh and he also had that Banner dude with an apothocary nearby so if you actually did kill an infantry model it got to shoot at you and then had a 50/50 to come back to life again. So again, what are you deepstriking in front of that army to kill his 2 predator annihilators or 2 squads of Devastators?

What kind of weird game was that ? No objectives to hold ? Was he hiding in the corner the whole game ? What did he shoot at, when he was castled up ? His vision must have been impaired quite a but, i think ?
I wouldnt deepstrike immediately. There are units in the game that dont need LOS to wound. Like librarians with smite. If he cant see me, he cant shoot me. I can smite him. I could use the orbital strike stratagem. I could hit him with a whirlwind who is also hiding in a corner.

Stormwolf with quad Multimeltas

The humble Space Marine Hunter is very solid.

I own two and they work both as AA and AT.

For 90 pts you get a chassis with 11 wounds, a 3+ save and T8!

You also get a weapon which essentially is a Lascannon but better; longer range, re-rolls failed to hit rolls, and has +1 to hit against Fly.
- Against Fly without the -1 to hit, the Hunter hits on 2+ with a re-roll.
- Against regular Fliers with hard to hit, the Hunter hits on 3+ with a re-roll.
- Against Non-Fly, the Hunter still hits on 3+ with a re-roll, since unlike the Stalker, the Hunter doesn't suffer -1 to hit against Non-Fly.

Did I mention that it's 90 pts for a T8 tank?

 MinscS2 wrote:

Did I mention that it's 90 pts for a T8 tank?

Its 120 pts. And its only one shot

Sicaran are pretty nice against flyers

p5freak wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Because as we know, opponents will always leave their most valuable units exposed without any cover and completely vulnerable to you.

Makes no sense to hide a dev squad, they need LOS to shoot.

SemperMortis wrote:

I played against a Girlyman player in a tournament who brought 2 Predator Annihilators next to Girlyman and a few other things like Asscan Razorbacks and Plasma Primaris Marines. Everything he had was TL and had Shred (reroll to wound) He also was castled up in a corner of the map where the only place you could drop in on him was 9in directly in front of his army. That list right there versus any flyer in the game would have won easily. 8 TL Lascanons rerolling wounds against a T7 Flyer = 6 Hits, 5 wounds and about 15-20 damage.

So against that guy what would you deepstrike in to kill his predator annihilators? Ohh and he also had that Banner dude with an apothocary nearby so if you actually did kill an infantry model it got to shoot at you and then had a 50/50 to come back to life again. So again, what are you deepstriking in front of that army to kill his 2 predator annihilators or 2 squads of Devastators?

What kind of weird game was that ? No objectives to hold ? Was he hiding in the corner the whole game ? What did he shoot at, when he was castled up ? His vision must have been impaired quite a but, i think ?
I wouldnt deepstrike immediately. There are units in the game that dont need LOS to wound. Like librarians with smite. If he cant see me, he cant shoot me. I can smite him. I could use the orbital strike stratagem. I could hit him with a whirlwind who is also hiding in a corner.

6 objectives, it was an ITC Tournament, what did he shoot? My Ork Hordes. Who won? it was a tie because he was able to blast most of my forces off the table and use 2 deep striking squads to hold objectives and his Tac Marines to hold a contested objective. And yes he hid in the corner most of the game. So yes it works just fine and can kill flyers.

p5freak wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

Did I mention that it's 90 pts for a T8 tank?

Its 120 pts. And its only one shot

Its 90. Check the codex. 90 for the hunter, 0 for the skyspear missile launcher.

Sgt Chronus in a autocannon las pred does pretty well. If stationary hits on 3's. Obviously you throw a hunter killer on there too.

Stalker is garbage but hunter is pretty decent for 90 pts, his main avantage being his resilience and his polyvalence.

Compared to the lascan pred it's a given. But it work better as a solo unit than in a gunline because it doesn't need rerolls and protection like a pred/dev do.

Ok, its 90 pts. I dont have the SM codex, and im not going to buy it, i play BA, waiting for that codex. But its just 1 shot. You are most likely going to hit, and your chances of doing 3,5 damage are good. But then the flyer is gone, out of sight.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, its 90 pts. I dont have the SM codex, and im not going to buy it, i play BA, waiting for that codex. But its just 1 shot. You are most likely going to hit, and your chances of doing 3,5 damage are good. But then the flyer is gone, out of sight.

I don't get it, isn't that the case with every vehicle ?

p5freak wrote:
Ok, its 90 pts. I dont have the SM codex, and im not going to buy it, i play BA, waiting for that codex. But its just 1 shot. You are most likely going to hit, and your chances of doing 3,5 damage are good. But then the flyer is gone, out of sight.

I really don't see the issue? As PandatheWarrior says, isn't that the case with every vehicle?

At least the Hunter is so cheap you can get several of them without breaking the bank (to cover several angles), and they are still solid against ground targets (monsters and vehices in particular).
Yes it's only 1 shot per Hunter, but it's 1 more or less automatic hit (88%) from a Lascannon.

p5freak wrote:
A whirlwind hyperios is only 120 pts. Its hyperios launcher is 72", heavy 2D3, S8, AP-2, D3. Add 1 to hit FLY. This weapon can target units not visible to the firing model.

Is this -1 to hit non flyers? I have 3 wirlwinds and the codex rules for wirlwinds suck.

 Xenomancers wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A whirlwind hyperios is only 120 pts. Its hyperios launcher is 72", heavy 2D3, S8, AP-2, D3. Add 1 to hit FLY. This weapon can target units not visible to the firing model.

Is this -1 to hit non flyers? I have 3 wirlwinds and the codex rules for wirlwinds suck.

It is. +1 against units with fly, -1 against all others.

Being a fluff killing troll: Use heavy flamer skimmers for killing aircraft.
I think Black Templar like to their heretics well done right?
I would also dare anyone to try to bog them down in melee (the initial auto hits would hurt).

I REALLY like the hammer jump pack vanguard: almost as vivid an image as Stormboyz.

 Talizvar wrote:
(the initial auto hits would hurt).

.

What initial auto hit ?

 Talizvar wrote:
Being a fluff killing troll: Use heavy flamer skimmers for killing aircraft.
I think Black Templar like to their heretics well done right?
I would also dare anyone to try to bog them down in melee (the initial auto hits would hurt).

I REALLY like the hammer jump pack vanguard: almost as vivid an image as Stormboyz.

I don't think flamers are that good, heavy flamers do (on average) less than 1 wound versus T7 3+ flyers, you'd need 20 Heavy Flamers to take down a 12W T7 3+ save flyer; good luck getting them all in range and/or staying alive long enough.

I do wreckon that cc is a good way to deal with flyers though: I've played several 2000pt games where I used a Bloodthirster and Khorne Daemon prince to wreck flyers with a combo punch of 7xS11 AP-4 Dd6 attacks and 9xS8 AP-2 D2 attacks both hitting on 2s re-rolling, so far they've taken down Blitza Bombers, Doom scythes and Vendettas. They usually get 1st/2nd turn charges (depending on who goes first) since the flyer has to zoom up the board unless it wants to forgo it's -1 to hit.

ItsPug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A whirlwind hyperios is only 120 pts. Its hyperios launcher is 72", heavy 2D3, S8, AP-2, D3. Add 1 to hit FLY. This weapon can target units not visible to the firing model.

Is this -1 to hit non flyers? I have 3 wirlwinds and the codex rules for wirlwinds suck.

It is. +1 against units with fly, -1 against all others.

That's still pretty good - I like it a lot.

Anyone using the IG Hydra AA tank? It's a fairly durable chassis, and I remember the guns not being too shabby (don't have the index in front of me to get exact stats, but I'm pretty sure they were equivalent to four long range autocannons.)

MinscS2 wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Ok, its 90 pts. I dont have the SM codex, and im not going to buy it, i play BA, waiting for that codex. But its just 1 shot. You are most likely going to hit, and your chances of doing 3,5 damage are good. But then the flyer is gone, out of sight.

I really don't see the issue? As PandatheWarrior says, isn't that the case with every vehicle?

No its not. The whirlwind hyperios can shoot at targets not in sight. And its +1 against flying units. Heavy 2D3 means 2-6 shots every turn, no matter where the flyer is. Its only 120 pts.

Exept when you go in the fw route, everything become a tad less balanced.

*shrug*

Try anything that's anti vehicle. -1 to hit isn't that much of a penalty.

p5freak wrote:
There are units in the game that dont need LOS to wound. Like librarians with smite. If he cant see me, he cant shoot me. I can smite him.

What make you think Smite does not require LOS. Smite hits the nearest visible enemy unit with 18". If it is out of LOS it is not visible.