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I started 40k when 3rd first came out and missed out on 2nd. I found the rules, but with only horror stories about stuff like Virus Outbreaks, the Dark Millennium Psychic Phase, or general craziness of that sort. However, I want to give 2e a try for the novelty factor of it all.

How do I start playing 2nd ed, not even with starting SW: Armageddon? I'm noticing that most the point costs are a lot higher so the games have less models overall, but there are considerably more counters. Are there any houserules/Gentlemans agreements (ex: No more than X blind grenades per turn) you would recommend?

Don't go second vs Eldar or CSM.

2nd Ed certainly had some quirky stuff, but if you want a decently balanced game then play "Tournament Rules" (I played in the 1997 Canadian Grand Tournament under these - they were in a White Dwarf IIRC). I did a quick google seach and there is a more recent 2nd Ed Tournament rules available - you could start there. These restricted the wargear (no virus bombs etc) and did not allow the more powerful Psychic powers (nothing above level 2). I really liked the 2nd Ed psychic phase from Dark Millenium. It had much more give and take than the current one, but perhaps I am just being nostalgic.

2nd Ed was about three or four squads/vehicles duking it out with pretty much no dice buckets. I really like 8th, but the only way to make a better edition would be to remake 2nd Ed but tame the Eldar.

Have fun!

Start off with basic units until you get the feel of it.

DON'T start off with Wolfguard Terminators all with Assault Cannons, Ork armies with 6 Pulsa Rokkits, or and Eldar player who spends their entire 50% Character points allotment on Exarchs.

Be characterful with the armies, ignore internet horror stories, most importantly- get a print out of the wargear cards and make available to both sides, so everyone has fair choice.

2nd is the best edition for pure gaming. It's all we play, when we bother to play 40k

Best advice is don't, because it's a big mess.

In other posts, you've expressed that you don't like games where both players are "non-aggressive". Well, Overwatch "proper" is about as unfun a mechanic as you'll find. If you use LOS blocking terrain, you're basically using real-life ambush scenarios. Which sounds cool until you realize neither of you is going to break the stalemate, because you both realize being the first to advance is the first to lose.

Amongst other horror stories... Cyclone missiles used to be an AOE, based on the number of missiles fired. If I recall, a single Cyclone that Alpha'd could create a Krak Missile blast 12" across. So, 8 of those could saturate your deployment for a couple of Krak missile hits on everything you have, before you even start your turn. I'm 90% sure that cover was a negative to hit, but that didn't matter with blast weapons. Bummer, I scattered 2" to the left. Wheee!

Everything was more complicated, but nothing was more complex, really.

Close combat is an unequalled nightmare of contested rolls, each attacker attempting to fight one other model, and then giving bonuses to the next guy that fought. 10 Gretchin attack your leader, then Ork Warboss Kicknards comes in with +10 to the number of hits he's going to get with his power klaw on your Lord.

Rapid fire dice were idiotic.

It's honestly a chore to play, compared to any kind of decent game. Yes, you can use house rules to fix it. You can do that with any game. If you want the real experience, play it from the book, and wonder why anyone has any kind of nostalgia for it. It's terrible.


But since you're going to anyway, make sure everyone has a chance to read the rules. Make sure everyone knows what the numbfuck weapon your 15 point dude is going to use to annihilate his 200 point Lord'o'doom without any kind of reasonable save. Just Stasis bombed and bye! So make sure everyone knows the stupid rules for random wargear are [My guardsman has a Crossbow, with poison!] and run with it.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Best advice is don't, because it's a big mess.

Even better advice is to ignore this guy.

Try it out without trying to break it, same as every other edition there are neckbeards who consider finding loopholes and bending a ruleset to breaking point to be the high point of their hobby experience. 2nd ed was a solid edition by 40k standards.

Fast moving characters are the best thing in the game by miles.

Vehicles are useless, bikes are death traps for characters, heavy weapons are too unreliable.

Remember that it's a 4 turn game with most things moving 4" per turn so you can only get into combat with things your opponent wants you to engage unless you have enhanced movement (jump packs, etc.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Best advice is don't, because it's a big mess.

Even better advice is to ignore this guy.

Try it out without trying to break it, same as every other edition there are neckbeards who consider finding loopholes and bending a ruleset to breaking point to be the high point of their hobby experience. 2nd ed was a solid edition by 40k standards.

It was a boring edition where half your army stood and fired uselessly (unless you got lucky on the rolls) and the other half trudged slowly towards the enemy.

Meanwhile your teleporting librarian is killing six guys a turn.

Virus Grenades. Virus Grenades everywhere.

It's like any other 40kedition.

You want to strike a balance of efficiency; yes you want your army to be strong, but also you don't want the game to devolve into an exercise in book keeping. Don't take too many options that require excessive tracking/ table rolling or supplementary materials.

Likewise although the objective is to win, you are there to play a game. Don't over emphasise alphastrike components, otherwise you will just be winning a game that is never actually played out.

Finally, don't forget the victory conditions. Tailor your army to have a reasonable chance of completing a decent number of objectives within the time frame/turn limits of the game.

2nd edition can be fantastic, but like all versions of 40K it's easily broken by peoply who wish to do so. The rules are more complex, the armies are more characterful, but with a few tweaks it can be really damn cool.

If you're looking for cheat sheets and materials, try my blog:

http://projectanvil.blogspot.com/

PS: Follow the authors' advice on terrain - the table should be choked with terrain at times. Nothing like modern 40K.

It'll probably go better than 8th because in general people tend to be more chill playing older rules editions.

the_scotsman wrote:
It'll probably go better than 8th because in general people tend to be more chill playing older rules editions.

This; the people you can find who are willing to play 2nd are probably more chill than usual, meaning you'll probably be fine.

THAT SAID

The real no-chill people were bonkers in 2nd. At least 8th is at least a little bit even. 2nd edition was mind-blowing when people sought how to break it.

I actually played 2nd edition for several years in my late teens so I have a good amount of (albeit old) experience with 2nd. First if you are going to play second and build "competitive" lists then give up on the whole endeavor. There are so many broken aspects of 2nd that building to win devolves into lists with votex grenade dropping deepstrikers, 50% of points on characters, and spamming the most annoying yet effective units (looking at you pop-up attack Eldar). We had a guy in our group who was a WAAC player whose lists almost made most of us quit 40k. However we ended up putting some rules that balanced things out much better. First, only play skirmish level games (I don't remember the points scale, but think around 1000 points of today's units, so I think like 1500). The rule set does not do well for larger games, which will take all day. Also you need to raise the minimum from 25% to 50% the "troop" section or whatever it is called, where the bulk of the normal units are. You need to limit to 1 - 2 characters, most of whom are really really really powerful in 2nd. You need to play no pop-up attacks (seriously this is one of the worst rules ever made by GW). Finally, don't use any of the wargear cards, no vortex grenade, no grav gun, etc. That is basically what we did at the end of 2nd until 3rd and it made games much more enjoyable. I don't remember the specifics of psychics, but you will need to limit some of the more powerful game breaking ones (like vortex). I hope this helps.

Also if you play some games of second, please post them, as I am curious how your experience goes.

 greatbigtree wrote:

Amongst other horror stories... Cyclone missiles used to be an AOE, based on the number of missiles fired. If I recall, a single Cyclone that Alpha'd could create a Krak Missile blast 12" across.

The rule reads "diameter", not "radius". Cyclone max blast is 6" across, not 12".

I'd say to start small, like 1500 points, as the first games will be very slow, you'll be checking the weapon range modifiers continually, for example. Close combat takes an age, so prepare yourself for that. I'd also have a notebook and pen to keep track of vehicle damage. If you have or can get a quick reference card, keep it close. Make sure you have all the dice types you'll need for weapon damage.

It was an amazing game, so have fun with it, and enjoy the whimsy that only sustained fire dice can bring to the game.

If you want to try 2nd edition, you play it like the book says. gakky rules and all. Break the gak out of it. Play it for what it was, not some house-ruled version. You can make any edition better with house rules, but that's not a fair comparison. Play it by the book.

Bust it wide open, and truly see the failure it was. Don't hold back. It would be like using pain killers before getting a tattoo. You miss the true experience.

My advice would be to get the core box set rules - rulebook, wargear book and the black and white army list booklet. All the rest - codexes, wargear cards and psychic rules - can be added later, but I honestly think they're not really necessary. And remember armies are much smaller. The first battle report had less than thirty Marines in it - a Tactical squad, a Devastator Squad, a Terminator Squad, a Captain, a Dreadnought and a Rhino. The game focuses much more on individual troopers, rather than the squad being the "basic element".

The only Codex that I thought made a significant improvement was the Tyranid book - for the special events chart ("Jones is acting strangely") and the special missions. All the rest just added special rules to get in the way.

And never, ever, forget the mission cards - without that you end up with the stationary overwatch-fest that some people apparently had problems with.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. The Chaos codex, and those badass Terminators with their Reaper Autocannons inspired WeeLittleSaproling to buy into the game.

 Ahtman wrote:
Virus Grenades. Virus Grenades everywhere.

Vortex

Vortex detonator.

lol I love reading all the hate.

We started to play 2nd edition after years away from it this past winter. Got about 20 games in by summer. Had a blast.

A few blowouts a few games that it took til turn 2 hours later and we were about done...and yet when we got better we had a 10 turn game in 5 hours with 3 vs 3 2000 points each person!!

The game was made for 2k armies.
The Pyschic phase is fine, just limit the psychics to X amount of levels per points of troops.
The Base rules in Psychic said only roll 2d6 of cards. So with a bit over 3 cards each there was very little that psykers could do til you move up to advanced with 1 die roll for every 4 levels of psykers in play.
Imperial Dreadnoughts are one of the best vehicles in the game.
Vortex detonator on any super heavies will eliminate the vortex threat.
Virus grenade only works on all Ork(virus squig for the nerf), half the elder, most guard and almost no one else. So we just never used it in the games.
HTH with uber characters with fields and chaos gifts and terminator armor and storm shield and such can be a real pain and distort what hth was supposed to be.

Basically the OVERWATCH game will rule. Kindal like gunlines do in 8th. They shoot down Pop ups, overzealous characthers running around alone, and vehicles that move to fire.

Use Ablative armor on almost every vehicle. Searchlights will take care of pesky hidden troops.

Whirlwinds are a threat but nothing can touch an Earthshaker Cannon that gets double shots and even if it fails to penetrated you still get a glancing hit roll per se!!!!!

horde armies will die to marines overwatch with a couple hidden Earthshakers sitting back. Just watch those Eldar melt away as well!

The 2nd edition game is the absolute best for flavor of the 40k universe.

Diversity ( no army will be the same ever) You will always be able to tweak your same old same lists even in every game so that it still has something new in it.

All the fun and laughter you can have in 2nd edition can be 10fold compared to any other version. It is just a labour to go through all the minutia and can seem like a chore at times.

Many 3rd+ edition players who play 2nd edition cannot adapt to a game like 2nd.

have fun and pm me for links to the Battle Bible and other sites with loads of 2nd edtion stuff. I have most of everything published by GW in CJ, GW sponsored 3rd party rules (yes that was a thing!!) and all the conversion rules for tons of special characters and vehicles you wont find in the codexes yet written by the designers. ..Eldar Disruption Field ...anyone can guess where that came from? it wont be easy to find....but I have it.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

It was a boring edition where half your army stood and fired uselessly (unless you got lucky on the rolls) and the other half trudged slowly towards the enemy.

Meanwhile your teleporting librarian is killing six guys a turn.

Oh so a complete contrast to every edition since. Good angle.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

It was a boring edition where half your army stood and fired uselessly (unless you got lucky on the rolls) and the other half trudged slowly towards the enemy.

Meanwhile your teleporting librarian is killing six guys a turn.

Oh so a complete contrast to every edition since. Good angle.

lol

I liked that you could take 3 or 4 rhinos all with ablative and other wargear. You never had to tell your opponent which tanks had your assault troops inside...just write it down b4 the game (same with Rad grenades, ect) and they try to guess which to shoot and for how cheap rhinos were then you jump out and charge the enemy on turn 2 or 3!

Heck you take a Banshee Exarch with super charged engines and a jetbike, giver her Combat drugs and Bounding Leap and she can fly up to 48", jump off and take 1 str 10 hit still live after that 1 wound then charge 24" with the drugs and with bounding leap 4" more and get into combat with just about anyone. Of course she was doomed to die. But for 1 turn she could do some damage. Even though that was an extreme example of the 'broken' aspect of the game it also showed how much variety there could be. The Exarch maybe would not take a wound fromt eh str 10 hit for hitting the ground, somehow survive overwatch, go in for the kill and then hope the Combat drugs don't kill her 1 in 3 chance.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

It was a boring edition where half your army stood and fired uselessly (unless you got lucky on the rolls) and the other half trudged slowly towards the enemy.

Meanwhile your teleporting librarian is killing six guys a turn.

Oh so a complete contrast to every edition since. Good angle.

You mean compared to editions where you have a useful amount of mobility? Yes. Maneuver was incredibly limited in 2nd.

Oddly the maneuver wasn't really that limited. It's just limited to the silliness that 40K has become (one of the only major wargames where a squad can run up and down the field numerous times). People expecting to charge Space Marines on foot across the board...well that doesn't work.

Vehicles moved far faster than they ever have since - it was the point of taking vehicles. Jump Packs moved far faster and deep striking or infiltrating was rare and vastly more important.

Rhinos could also carry Dreadnoughts and even Terminators depending on the datafax you used - meaning everyone could get somewhere if the vehicle wasn't sniped (always a chance of course).

Weapons also had much longer ranges (heavy weapons shooting up to 60-72" frequently). This all just punished anybody who wanted to try to foot slog infantry across a board to get into assault (which is a silly idea to start with).

You actually needed to make use of transports, bikes, mobility units if you wanted to zip around the enemies deployment zone.

Vehicles were unusable death traps.

I had a look at the vehicle rules. They seem very binary in their use. On one hand, the armor values are way higher (Armor 22+?). on the other hand, so are the penetration rolls, and most the vehicle damage results are deadlier anyway, especially since you can kill off crew members too. Am I understanding this correctly? As for other things, I saw in CJ Tankfest that vehicles can move+overwatch.

It's cool that Techmarines or other "mechanic" characters can replace crew in a vehicle, and I wish that modern 40k had that. It's still janky that they die just as easy as mooks though. Is there any point to mounting up your characters this way, other than for fluff reasons (building an armored company, etc)?

And egads, so many grenade vectors. Autolaunchers, Creidanns, oh my.

2nd Ed was where I started and it's really fun. There's an amalgamated PDF of all the rules and supplements that should be pretty easy for you to find.

For the first few games I would suggest foregoing psychic powers. It's a separate card game that you play and it's very involved.

Correct on vehicles and armor pen rolls, also, when you hit a vehicle you randomly determine which part is it (hull, tracks engine, or left arm, right arm, legs etc.) and then you roll against the armor of that part and consult the corresponding damage table.

That being said, be sure to print out the codex entries for the vehicles you're using to save time.

What armies are you planing to play? I have experience with most of them if you're looking for a balanced game with your opponent.

If you play Orks and your opponent brings Virus, leggit ya gitz!