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Yea good point Johann, I think the problem might be the chassis and how many weapons it can take in some cases.

I think generally and away from Orks it would be better to have different weapons on vehicles than on infantry. Even when they're equivalent weapons. So a "Heavy Bolter" should have one cost for Infantry and another for vehicles. I really think this granularity would help the game.

 MrJohann wrote:
A thought about points and why points drops aren't always the answer. TLDR: the Morkanought would be much better if it could be given three KMK, even if I paid the points for them. The chassis isn't overpriced, the guns aren't overpriced - I just don't get the options to put enough guns on the chassis.

So in full:
Some points values make sense when chassis/weapon are looked at separately; postulating that BS is part of weapon cost (I'm well aware that many examples don't fit this)

Yes, exactly. That's the reason I split the rokkit discussion in three.
However, both of the nauts have no weapon options, so you might as well just add up all the weapons and add whatever points the whole package is worth. I think a proper value can be iterated for these two models with proper play testing. For battle wagons and their hundreds of configurations, this is much more of an issue.

. e.g. a space marine missile launcher is 25pts, an Ork Rokkit launcha that will hit half as often is 12points (yes I'm simplifying, pros and cons).

The rokkit is not our missile launcher though - it's our lascannon, the primary means to take out tough models. When you compare 25 point lascannons to two 12 point rokkits, the gap between the two weapons is much more clear.
The missile launcher pays a lot of points for flexibility, that the rokkit doesn't have. Outside of fluff, they have nothing in common.

And it's not like the missile launcher is a great weapon to begin with - the only reason someone has fielded a missile launcher against me in 8th was because the heavy weapon dude from his unit was modeled with one because they were starter set marines.

In general, weapons and units need to be costed in the context of their army, not game-wide. I'm all for stealing ideas from other codices, but point costs cannot be transferred from one army to another at all (unless we're talking about different colors of loyalist space marines, of course).

It doesn't really matter how much cheaper rokkits are compared to space marine missile launchers - fact is orks don't have the tools to handle tough models with many wounds right now and space marines do. Orks have different stat lines, rules and dynamics on the battlefield. I somehow doubt that a tactical marine squad will be advancing across the board and get stuck in combat instead of shooting their precious special and heavy weapons from cover. Ork boyz will do just that.

Assuming that we can then separate BS from chassis cost, the chassis for a Morkanought, a Land Raider and a Knight aren't massively different value wise (go with me here).

The key difference is that a Land Raider gets 117+pts of weapons for a 239pt chassis, whilst the Morkanought gets 80pts of weapons for a 270pt chassis. And I only consider 41pts of those weapons to be worthwhile...

The Kustom Mega Kannon isn't bad or overpriced, it's just that the competition is getting four Lascannons on a similar chassis. KMKs are quite a bit cheaper than lascannons actually - why not make the Morkanought KMK weapon a special 5D6 shots KMK cannon and price the weapon at 85pts? (5*17). With that option the Morkanought is then a similar cost/durability/dakka to a Land Raider.

We don't need a landraider. We need a morkanaut that's worth every single point. Not to mention that the chances of GW giving a model a loadout that's not supported by the current kit is next to zero.

I think bumping the morkanaut to BS4+ might do a lot to enforce it's "dis is da shooty 'un" vibe and make the points spent on decorative weaponry less of a tax. Two rokkits and a KMB hit about as hard as a KMK, so if those were properly costed (less than KMK), you'd have and average of three hits from morkanaut anti-tank weaponry plus the two twin big shootas.
Add the proposed changes to big shootas and KMB and you might be somewhere near your 5d6 KMK.

Otherwise it's apples to oranges. Keep in mind that a morkanaut can still crush most opponents in close combat, disengage, shoot some more and the run back in, while landraider will only cause a a wound or two to them if they are lucky and has all its weapons switched off for a turn. If you want

Note that GW is currently extremely bad at costing hybrid units properly. Both soul grinders and defilers are horribly overpriced because they pay for both their great shooting, their durability and their great close combat ability, even though you can't use both -
a fate that the nauts might share with them.

I like the idea of making orks ws4+/bs4+ or 3+/5+ depending on clan or something so making shooty orks better. Goffs could be fightier deathskulls or blood axes badmoonz, shootier. I miss my old orks that could hit something.
I also think as an orks rank increase so should it's ability to shoot. So not blanket 5+. Make burnas d6 seems a no brainier. Adjust points or whatever.

Actually I never understood why people scream that all orks should be BS5.

It is not valid argument anymore anyway, with Flashgits in index being 4+ BS. In fact more ork ranged specialists units should be 4+. Does not mean that they actually aim very well, but rather than unlike your average shootaboy they care enough to keep their guns in a good state and also they have access to cool gubbinz and targetting bitz.

I think units with boyz size should keep the BS5+ while gretchins, nobz, characters and vehicles should all be BS4+.

Which means boyz, kommandos, stormboyz, lootas, meks and tankbustas (plus burnaboyz, but they auto-hit anyway) should be BS5+, everything else 4+. I'd probably keep the bikes with BS5+ as well if they get a reduction in points.

Vehicles could be BS5+ but they need to double their shots then.

Characters should definitely be BS4+, and also nobz. Flash gitz are already BS4+ but they're penalized by the heavy weapon modifier, Snazzguns should be rapid fire 2 or even 3 to be worthy. Dreads and nauts at BS4+ make sense, and I'd really like to have trukks, BWs and buggies at BS4+ as well.

A general rule the makes To Hit rolls of 6s successful anyway, regardless of modifiers should be introduced as well, IMHO as a core rule, not only for orks.

What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

 Jidmah wrote:
What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

Kombi-rokkits, I guess.

There's no real need game wise, it just looks fair

Meks and spannas surely will benefit from being BS4+ but IMHO regular orks should be BS5+, that's their fluff. Only bigger ones, veterans (nobz and similar stuff) and heroes should be better since they have more experience.

Those meks just need some other kind of bonuses, maybe a more useful aura. Lootas and bustas could be cheaper and worthy even with BS5+.

Damage wise bustas are very good , they effectively have a 4+ against their preferred targets. Lootas felt pretty meh when I used them... not enough shots and in my opinion a unit that needs a constant cp usage(reroll low amount of shots) to function is not a very good one. They seem to have targeting helmets and scopes, and their fluff suggests that they grab loot, so targeting bitz too. So it’d make sense for them to be a 4+.

I don't understand why Lootas have the typical Ork number of attacks in cqc. They are wielding massive guns that are bigger than themselves, how on earth do they manage multiple attacks?!

Drop the cqc performance and improve the BS. It makes sense both from a function perspective and a fluff one.

 Blackie wrote:
There's no real need game wise, it just looks fair

Meks and spannas surely will benefit from being BS4+ but IMHO regular orks should be BS5+, that's their fluff. Only bigger ones, veterans (nobz and similar stuff) and heroes should be better since they have more experience.

Those meks just need some other kind of bonuses, maybe a more useful aura. Lootas and bustas could be cheaper and worthy even with BS5+.

Don't take this personal, but in my opinion there is no reason for any rule to exist if there is no need for it game wise.

Fluffy rules writing do not make for a fun game, they only make the rules more fun to read. Useless units get shelved, no matter how fluffy they are.

Fluff to rules has lead to all the terrible rules we have seen so far in previous editions, with the best example of an extremely fluffy and at the same utterly terrible rule being 7th edition's mob rule. This way to write rules should be dead and buried with 8th.
The game needs to be fluffy on the tabletop, not in the rule book.

Therefore my suggestion for all meks to become BS4+. All those units have expensive and powerful ranged weapons that have never seen the tabletop because they can't the brought side of a barn. It also matches the fluff - why would an ork build his own super-advanced weapons not be able to shoot with them?

I do agree that horde units should stay BS 5+. Lootaz and tank bustaz are very close to how they should work, lootaz just need a point drop to compete with artillery, tank bustas need some ablative wounds. Neither needs a higher ballistic skill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Drop the cqc performance and improve the BS. It makes sense both from a function perspective and a fluff one.

Or you could just leave the combat ability as is for simplicity's sake. It's not like you ever want your lootas in combat, and they don't do particularly well when they are.

You are taking away something they never use anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:


Therefore my suggestion for all meks to become BS4+. All those units have expensive and powerful ranged weapons that have never seen the tabletop because they can't the brought side of a barn. It also matches the fluff - why would an ork build his own super-advanced weapons not be able to shoot with them?

A mek with KMB or rokkit launcha is more than 30 points, I'd always take a mek gun or two tankbustas for the same price even if he was BS4+. Meks will never see the table if they don't have other rules, no one is going to take them just to add a little firepower to the army. In fact I really don't understand why meks and big meks don't have a real buffing aura, they can only repair vehicles. I'd like the re-roll hits of ones, since everyone has access to plasma re-rolls while orks don't.

My suggestion about nobz being BS4+ is pure logic since I think all those bigger orks should be BS4+. Meganobz would benefit a little from being BS4+ though, and if kustom shootas become 2pts like stormbolters (IMHO there's no reason why they shouldn't be 2 points) even nobz could benefit from being BS4+.

CikkCakk wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What do nobz need BS4+ for?

Also, mini meks and spannas definitely need BS4+, without it you might as well just delete them from the codex.

Kombi-rokkits, I guess.

Would be great to use the ability to fire Kombi-rokkits on both modes now that is in the general rules - that would feel super Orky


@Jidmah - thanks for the response. I think I was just trying to understand how the index turned out the way it did.

 Blackie wrote:
A mek with KMB or rokkit launcha is more than 30 points, I'd always take a mek gun or two tankbustas for the same price even if he was BS4+. Meks will never see the table if they don't have other rules, no one is going to take them just to add a little firepower to the army.

You're right, but my point was more aimed at the war gear options of those meks. If the mek itself becomes viable, that would be great. However, people would still not buy a KMB or rokkit launche because they simply don't hit gak. There needs to be a reason to ever take anything from the "souped-up weapon list" (plus SAG, tellyporta blasta, wazzbomm megablasta, etc).
Somehow orks plasma weapons ended up being the worst weapons in an edition where plasma is the best for everyone else.

In fact I really don't understand why meks and big meks don't have a real buffing aura, they can only repair vehicles. I'd like the re-roll hits of ones, since everyone has access to plasma re-rolls while orks don't.

Big meks (wazzbomm blata jets, morkanauts) do have the KFF though. As my math has shown in one of my last posts, a "re-roll ones" aura is completely useless for orks, the "DakkaDakkaDakka" stratagem that is considered mostly useless does more than three times as much damage as a "re-roll ones" aura. Also note that none of our plasma weapons slay the bearer, so re-rolling ones is not as important.
Last, but not least, burna and loota units can have up to three spannas. Whatever their bonus is, you need to be able to stack it, and it should be relevant to both lootas and burnas.

Some brainstorming concerning new rules for meks:
Dakka overload. Pick a <clan> unit within 3" or that the mek is embarked on. Roll a d3:
1) For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead.
2) +1 to strength
3) -1 to AP
If you roll one or more hit rolls of one for the target unit, it takes that many mortal wounds after all shots have been resolved. The mek cannot use mek tools on the same turn he used dakka overload.
So yes, it could overload a unit of lootaz, but they will probably be gone afterwards. I didn't want to hand out flat +1 to shots because shoota boyz or tank bustas could get ridiculous really fast.
You get a cookie if you know which previous ork rule inspired this.

Instant repair. Once per shooting phase, a unit within 3" of the mek may re-roll a single dice
Boring, but effective rule. Lootaz could bring along their own re-roll and a mini-mek handing out re-rolls to mek guns might just be worth some points.

Mek krew. Instead of using mek tool, another mek within 3" add +1 to the number of wounds restored by using his mek tools
It kind of bugs me that you can field units with three meks in them, but one one of them can repair any given vehicle. At least let them join up.

My suggestion about nobz being BS4+ is pure logic since I think all those bigger orks should be BS4+.

Actually, following the fluff, nobz and MANz should be worse at shooting than lootas, tank bustas and flash gits. According to the 5th edition codex (best fluff, go read it!), nobz primary focus on the destructive power of their weapons, while deff guns are actually outfitted with target aids and recoil reducing mechanisms. So lootaz actually do aim, while nobz go for the more dakka approach.
As for MANz, the very first line of their description reads "Ork veterans who value the thrill of close combat above all else sometimes become Meganobz." - shooting isn't even mentioned anywhere on that page.

Meganobz would benefit a little from being BS4+ though, and if kustom shootas become 2pts like stormbolters (IMHO there's no reason why they shouldn't be 2 points) even nobz could benefit from being BS4+.

I don't think the kustom shoota will ever be worth any points unless it gets a different profile. I agree with Englishman here, a weapon should always have a reason to take it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrJohann wrote:
Would be great to use the ability to fire Kombi-rokkits on both modes now that is in the general rules - that would feel super Orky

I love that idea. Just allow both modes to be shot without reduced BS - you will still be shooting shootas at a vehicle or rokkits at infantry, but it will be awesome

 Jidmah wrote:

You're right, but my point was more aimed at the war gear options of those meks. If the mek itself becomes viable, that would be great. However, people would still not buy a KMB or rokkit launche because they simply don't hit gak. There needs to be a reason to ever take anything from the "souped-up weapon list" (plus SAG, tellyporta blasta, wazzbomm megablasta, etc).
Somehow orks plasma weapons ended up being the worst weapons in an edition where plasma is the best for everyone else.

What if meks with special weapons gave buffs to nearby models armed with same weapon? Like a rerolls of 1 and +1BS for kustom blastas if mek has KMB or KMS, rerolling To Wound results of 1 for rokkit launchas if he has a RL, etc. So not only do they provide a bit of a ranged kick by themselves, they synergise with units other than vehicles. SAG and Tellyporta blasta need some whacky but powerful abilities and not just mortal wounds on a lucky roll imho.

 Jidmah wrote:

Last, but not least, burna and loota units can have up to three spannas. Whatever their bonus is, you need to be able to stack it, and it should be relevant to both lootas and burnas.

First spanner allows to reroll a number of shots. Second one gives you +1 shot/autohit to each model. Third one makes it so loota squad has a chance to shoot twice like flashgits. No idea for burnas sadly. (Speaking of Flashgits ability , that roll of shooting again should get a +1 to it for every enemy unit in range except the first one). Does not have to be the way I've described it, but general idea is that each spanner gives an appropriate buff to a unit and if they should die, buff dissipates.

 Jidmah wrote:

Some brainstorming concerning new rules for meks:
Dakka overload. Pick a <clan> unit within 3" or that the mek is embarked on. Roll a d3:
1) For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead.
2) +1 to strength
3) -1 to AP
If you roll one or more hit rolls of one for the target unit, it takes that many mortal wounds after all shots have been resolved. The mek cannot use mek tools on the same turn he used dakka overload.
So yes, it could overload a unit of lootaz, but they will probably be gone afterwards. I didn't want to hand out flat +1 to shots because shoota boyz or tank bustas could get ridiculous really fast.
You get a cookie if you know which previous ork rule inspired this.

I like it, but it'd be nice to have something in place of #1, so it could be used reliably with shootaboys too. Maybe #1 could be choose 1: For all weapons with a random number of shots, use the maximum instead OR reroll both To Hit and To Wound results of 1?

 Jidmah wrote:

Instant repair. Once per shooting phase, a unit within 3" of the mek may re-roll a single dice
Boring, but effective rule. Lootaz could bring along their own re-roll and a mini-mek handing out re-rolls to mek guns might just be worth some points.
...
Mek krew. Instead of using mek tool, another mek within 3" add +1 to the number of wounds restored by using his mek tools
It kind of bugs me that you can field units with three meks in them, but one one of them can repair any given vehicle. At least let them join up.

Simple, but good ideas

 Jidmah wrote:

As for MANz, the very first line of their description reads "Ork veterans who value the thrill of close combat above all else sometimes become Meganobz." - shooting isn't even mentioned anywhere on that page.
...
I don't think the kustom shoota will ever be worth any points unless it gets a different profile. I agree with Englishman here, a weapon should always have a reason to take it.

I have a suggestion. What if Meganobs could fire their guns while in melee? Be it a stratagem or innate unit ability. Would be great alongside:

 Jidmah wrote:

Just allow both modes to be shot without reduced BS - you will still be shooting shootas at a vehicle or rokkits at infantry, but it will be awesome

As far as fixing BWs and Trukks goes, someone mentioned making giving them a melee upgrade mandatory on the last page, as a side effect of making them cheaper. What if all ork vehicles, transports included, got better at melee? It gives them additional purpose without making them spammy.

I think Ork Boyz should be separated into Choppa Boyz and Shotta Boyz.

Keep the Choppa as they are. Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas. (So 3 instead of 2) (I don't know if make that in half range so 9" or any range. Of course they lose the +1 attack for being more than 20)
Make them one less Leadership to reflect that they are a little more coward than the Choppa ones, because they prefer ranged combat (With the mob rule it doesn't matter, just a little of flavour)

Is not like units having different BS/WS in the same codex is unheard off. You have Blood Claws with their BS+3 and WS+4.

Based on that, give ork shooting units BS+4. Give groots some other bonus to their accuracy (Not BS3+, thats a bit too much) and fixed.


And one stratagem that I have think of...

Overwhelming powah! 1CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your movement phase. Pick a Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field. On a roll of 2+, the range of that Kustom Force Field is increased to 14". On a roll of 1, the Big Mek receives 1d3 Mortal Wounds, and the range is increased to 18" instead when the Kustom Force Field is overcharged. If the Big Mek dies, any unit within 3" take 1d3 Mortal Wounds (1d6 if the unit has more than 10 models). Any time a Big Mek's Kustom Force Field is overcharged, the next time you use this stratagem on it, the roll increases by 1 ( 3+ after one overcharge, 4+ after two, etc...). The extra range last until the start of your next movement phase.

A little too complicated? Usefull? Maybe to cheap in CP? Has somebody suggested something similar allready?

 Galas wrote:
I think Ork Boyz should be separated into Choppa Boyz and Shotta Boyz.

Keep the Choppa as they are. Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas. (So 3 instead of 2) (I don't know if make that in half range so 9" or any range. Of course they lose the +1 attack for being more than 20)
Make them one less Leadership to reflect that they are a little more coward than the Choppa ones, because they prefer ranged combat (With the mob rule it doesn't matter, just a little of flavour)

Is not like units having different BS/WS in the same codex is unheard off. You have Blood Claws with their BS+3 and WS+4.

Sure, but why?
Shoota boyz are pretty much fine as they are, they already trade a lot of combat ability away by dropping their choppa. On top of that, shoota boyz are still a unit that wants to be in combat, if you nerf that you pretty much end up with bolter marines. No one needs those.
There is also no fluff indicating that shoota boyz are in any way more cowardly than their choppa counterparts - quite the opposite, as choppa boyz are usually just lacking the teef do buy themselves a nice shoota.

Based on that, give ork shooting units BS+4. Give groots some other bonus to their accuracy (Not BS3+, thats a bit too much) and fixed.

To be blunt: No two-line rule change will fix the ork index to become a great codex. If you read the thread, you'll understand why.

And one stratagem that I have think of...

Overwhelming powah! 1CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your movement phase. Pick a Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field. On a roll of 2+, the range of that Kustom Force Field is increased to 14". On a roll of 1, the Big Mek receives 1d3 Mortal Wounds, and the range is increased to 18" instead when the Kustom Force Field is overcharged. If the Big Mek dies, any unit within 3" take 1d3 Mortal Wounds (1d6 if the unit has more than 10 models). Any time a Big Mek's Kustom Force Field is overcharged, the next time you use this stratagem on it, the roll increases by 1 ( 3+ after one overcharge, 4+ after two, etc...). The extra range last until the start of your next movement phase.

A little too complicated? Usefull? Maybe to cheap in CP? Has somebody suggested something similar allready?

Utterly useless. Might as well just bring a second KFF mek and not allow enemy snipers trigger get a free artillery strike on my army.
You are basically spending a CP to give one or two units a 5++ save. Compared to other defensive stratagems (-1 to hit, can only be targeted when closest, 5+ FNP) this is a waste of CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
As far as fixing BWs and Trukks goes, someone mentioned making giving them a melee upgrade mandatory on the last page, as a side effect of making them cheaper. What if all ork vehicles, transports included, got better at melee? It gives them additional purpose without making them spammy.

You would need to increase transport capacity though, as you need to have a certain amount of orks drop out of your transports to make them actually do something. Assuming you have three trukks, you only get what amounts to one mob upped unit of boyz that used Da Jump. 40 boyz appearing next to your opponents army is impressive, and in some way comparable to 20 genestealers and a trygron popping out of tunnel.
So if you wanted to have the same fighting power as three trygons digging tunnels and bringing their genestealer friends along, you would have to field nine trukks already - and you would still have to cross the board while getting shot, unlike the trygon.

Sory, the explosions where if the big mekk dies by the stratagem damage, like perils. Maybe then it could be done has a special rule for the big mekk?
Personally y i dont see why you end with tacticals by changing the +1attavk for +20 for +1shoot.
The leadership thing was non relevant, they can be the same without a problem.
And Im totally aware that no single change will fix the index, I just don think shooting orks should be BS5+

 Galas wrote:
Sory, the explosions where if the big mekk dies by the stratagem damage, like perils. Maybe then it could be done has a special rule for the big mekk?

Why would you want to make a HQ that's just barely viable worse?
There is no more reason for a big mek to explode than for a tech marine or a warpsmith.

Personally y i dont see why you end with tacticals by changing the +1attavk for +20 for +1shoot.

Your whole change would leave them at WS4 and one less attack. A mob of 30 would then get 30 hits instead of the current 60, literally cutting their combat ability in half. In return they get 45 hits from shooting instead of 20 hits., which is nice, but we're talking about S4 AP 0 shoots at 18".
Shoota boyz don't really have a problem right now, so if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Being able to whack people over the head while holding weapons is the very identity of the ork army. Take that away and you get guardmen/cultists/scouts.

What? Im talking of removing the extra attack from being more than 20 boyz. Shootas would still have their two base attacks. So 30 shootas would have 60 attacks at 4WS.
A unit of 30 shottas would have 90 shootd instead of 60 with the extra soot for being more than 20.
So 30 shotas would have 60 4+WS attacks and 90 4+BS shoots.

The rule for the big mek was to try to reflect the nature of randomnes with a risk but a big reward for orks, risking some wounds for doubling the range, or just upgrading the range without any cost. . But if thats isnt balanceable np, it was just and idea. It could be diferent. If you rol 1, the forcefield deactivates for one turn, if you rol 2-5 the range is increased by 5", if you roll a 6 it doubles to 18". That has a basic rule of the big mek. And it should d be someting you chose to do, not automatic.

But sorry for making lose your time i have only a small 1850p ork army, is obviously you know much more from the army than me. So i shouldbt insist!
And sorry by my grammar, im in a movile and is horrible to write when the autocorrectorr changes everything to spanish

 Galas wrote:
Make Shotta BS4+ and WS+4 and give them a rule that if they are more than 20 models in a unit they gain one shoot with their shootas.

I'm not sure what part I am missing here.

You do know that ork boyz have WS 3+, right?

Yeah. I suppose you could make them +3WS and +4BS but that would make them deserve, probably a 1pm increase.

Except you're still trying to fix something that does not need fixing and raising its points in the process.

Ork shoota boyz are nowhere near the problems ork shooting has.

shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability (without involving outside sources like painboys/Big Meks which just inflate their cost) and damage output for their cost, with speed being their only real advantage. Adding in an exhaust cloud rule making opponents suffer -1 to hit against them in the shooting phase (as much as I hate facing that rule, it makes sense IMO) or either a built in invuln. or counting as being in cover all the time helps deal with one of those issues. Another possible way of promoting large biker squads is to give them a size based bonus similar to Green Tide for Boyz. Maybe any unit above 4 warbikers gets to have an additional D3 attacks per model on the charge, making it so that it gives us more hitting power and a way of reflecting the sheer mass of bikers grinding through the enemy ala old hammer of wrath. Throw in the mandatory price decrease alongside this and they have a more defined role in the codex.

Similarly, I feel Trukks, in order to give themselves a more defined role versus the battlewagon, should reflect it as more of a fighting platform for boyz. If they don't decrease them in cost and durability to make them viable to be taken in multiples, to make them worthwhile to Boyz/CC units, they should allow a trukk to charge enemy units and, if successful, allow the unit inside to deploy around the enemy and count as having charged that enemy unit as well. It protects the boyz inside more directly from overwatch fire and feels like boyz flying out straight into the fray. This idea definitely requires more tweaking (and I still believe the unit cap in the transport should be raised to 15) but at least it differentiates it from the battlewagon more clearly.

@Galas

Shoota Boyz as is are actually fine, Ork shooting's main issue is pricing problems, the ubiquity of -1 to hit shooting mods, and durability problems on a lot of our shooting units. All of this can largely be solved with what we discussed with the Ork racial rule of ignoring enemy to hit modifiers in shooting, making guns like Big Shootas actually work taking by making them RF 3 or -1AP as Jidmah suggested and tweaking the costs and durability of guys like Lootas and Tankbustas. Throw in some actual rules that buff shooting like some sort of aura from Meks/Big Meks and we're set.

I agree about bikers and big shootas/dakkaguns in general to be more deadly. Bikes should have a 5+ invuln or a -1 to hit, while those S5 shots should be AP-1, like heavy bolters.

I disagree about trukks having their transport capacity increased or being better fighters, they just need to be way cheaper, maybe even less resilient. But they can't be more than 45 points including the weapon.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree about bikers and big shootas/dakkaguns in general to be more deadly. Bikes should have a 5+ invuln or a -1 to hit, while those S5 shots should be AP-1, like heavy bolters.

I agree with you two here. I would prefer -1 to hit though, because it discourage plasma from overcharging and overcharges plasma kills bikers extremely well.
Kind of depends on whether blood axes get a -1 to hit klan trait. -2 to hit warbikers would be insane and not very blood axe-y.

With a defensive buff and -1 AP i would probably want to field them without any cost reductions.

I disagree about trukks having their transport capacity increased or being better fighters, they just need to be way cheaper, maybe even less resilient. But they can't be more than 45 points including the weapon.

I only suggested this in response to the suggestion that trukks should not be spammed.

You are basically both right, in the end X points of transports must result in Y orks being transported. If you make trukks cheaper, you don't need to increase point costs. If you keep them as expensive as they are, they need to carry more orks.

As for orks mob rule working on MSU:
You could just change it to work like the weird boyz power, count all orks within 6" of a unit, and that's your LD.

Glad to see this thread still going, there's some great ideas here.

-1 to hit bikers makes a ton of sense. Perhaps only have it activate if the unit advances? For fluff and to help mitigate shooting shenanigans? Of course dakka gunz should be -1 AP also.

I don't think blood axes will get the -1 to hit racial trait. I reckon it'll be an always counts as cover trait instead as with that Nid hive fleet. There's probably an internal rule about not giving horde armies a flat -1 to hit.

With regards that powa overload stratagem, why not have it be "1 CP - your kff is now a 5+++ instead of a 5++."? I think that would be both more useful and fun. It could also be a relic; "Grand Mek Orkymedes Supa Field".

I've also had a thought on a new flavour of Boyz. Ladz, 7ppm Boyz able to take both shoota and choppa. Perhaps give them a 5+ save for another point? What you think? Could be a stratagem upgrade per game too?

Are there any more generic stratagems that we are pretty much certain we'll get? For example: "1CP to deep strike one unit/3CP to deep strike two units" or "3CP fight twice in fight phase".

If we break it down there tends to be 30ish stratagems in each codex, 20 or so are general army wide and another 10-12 are for each sub faction. Of those 20 general stratagems I'd say roughly half are army wide and very general (relic for example) and the other half are specific to certain units. So that leaves us about 10 stratagems for our units. Not many all things considered. Particularly when you imagine there'll probably be one unique to gretchin, one for dreads, one perhaps for nauts. They quickly deplete. What do you guys think we'll see there?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Glad to see this thread still going, there's some great ideas here.

-1 to hit bikers makes a ton of sense. Perhaps only have it activate if the unit advances? For fluff and to help mitigate shooting shenanigans? Of course dakka gunz should be -1 AP also.

Always on -1 might be to powerful if you field 3 or more mobs of 15, so I'm sold.
Combined with the previous idea of giving evil suns the ability to advance and shoot at full BS this would actually make evil suns biker heavy.

I don't think blood axes will get the -1 to hit racial trait. I reckon it'll be an always counts as cover trait instead as with that Nid hive fleet. There's probably an internal rule about not giving horde armies a flat -1 to hit.

Nids have lots of options to give them -1 to hit already. Stacking that with a hive fleet bonus would have been totally broken. I don't think this has anything to do with hordes.

With regards that powa overload stratagem, why not have it be "1 CP - your kff is now a 5+++ instead of a 5++."? I think that would be both more useful and fun. It could also be a relic; "Grand Mek Orkymedes Supa Field".

I would like to see a return of the KFF relic from Waaagh! Ghazghkull upgrading a single KFF to 4++.
A stratagem should just improve the 5++ to 4++ for a turn, increased area isn't really useful at all.
While stacking saves is interesting, you generate a lot of dice rolls for little effect, especially when a pain boy gets involved and start to you roll three dice per wound caused.

I've also had a thought on a new flavour of Boyz. Ladz, 7ppm Boyz able to take both shoota and choppa. Perhaps give them a 5+ save for another point? What you think? Could be a stratagem upgrade per game too?

I don't think the models support the choppa-shoota boyz well.
A good idea for a stratagem would be 'ard boyz though. For 1 CP you pick a mob of boyz before the game starts and they have 4+ armor save for the rest of the game. The daemon banner upgrades work very similar.

Are there any more generic stratagems that we are pretty much certain we'll get? For example: "1CP to deep strike one unit/3CP to deep strike two units" or "3CP fight twice in fight phase".

The first one might be blood axe only, the other one I'm not sure about as it's a stratagem only found on followers of khorne.

If we break it down there tends to be 30ish stratagems in each codex, 20 or so are general army wide and another 10-12 are for each sub faction. Of those 20 general stratagems I'd say roughly half are army wide and very general (relic for example) and the other half are specific to certain units. So that leaves us about 10 stratagems for our units. Not many all things considered. Particularly when you imagine there'll probably be one unique to gretchin, one for dreads, one perhaps for nauts. They quickly deplete. What do you guys think we'll see there?

One always tends to benefit shooting with multiple battletanks at once. So there might be one that gives +1 to hit and wound, re-roll or the like. I'm also pretty sure that there might be one buffing mek guns when you have multiple units.
Another one I can see would be three SAGs choosing some point on the map and then on for everything within 6" of that point, roll 4+ (+1 for units of 10+ -1 for chracters) and deal d3 mortal wounds if successful. There was an apoc formation that did could do something like that in the past, and similar apoc formations (vindicators, zoantropes) got stratagems like that as well.
Last one I definitely want to see is guaranteed explosions for ork vehicles.