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If I were to wear the hat of the designer, for a elite army such as space marine, their troop choice should be mediocre by its own standards. Space marine troops are the very definition of "jack of all trades master of none" in the WH40k universe. They are fairly hard to peel off an objective, but neither are they thunderfire cannons.

By far, space marine armies dont rely heavily on CP's in comparison to AM, where they can a mass a decent amount of CP's without spending to much "troop tax."

Well - space marine command points are almost useless - thats why they aren't relied on. About all they are good for is dropping a single orbital bombardment and then rerolling guillimans resurrection dice if you fail.

Precisely. I think it's the designer's intent on SM players to think about "which elite/fa units to choose from" and not "which troops to choose"

 koooaei wrote:
They're basically nob-o-marines.

I agree.
All numarines should NOT be troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fresus wrote:
In the fluff, there are primaris-only chapters. A full primaris army makes perfect sense as an independent army, especially given the extensive model line.

Yuk.

By this logic kommandoes and mandrakes should also be troops.

 koooaei wrote:
By this logic kommandoes and mandrakes should also be troops.

Primaris marines have over 10 unit choices.
If kommandoes or mandrakes also had 5+ unit choices, then yes, having at least one of them as a troop choice would make sense.

When i made a comment about kommandoes and mandrakes being troops i was talking about this:

duWhee wrote:
Maybe they are Elite because of their Deep Strike capability. Maybe GW didn’t want a deep strike unit to have Defenders of Humanity objective secured capability.

Personally, I agree that Reivers should be Troops

If primaris were an independent faction with no access to other imperium stuff then yes, reivers and intercessors should be troops. But since primaris are just regular SM units, they shoud be elites, heavy supports or fast attacks.

If scouts and tacticals are part of the same army, intercessors and reivers are clearly improved units, not basic stuff as troops.

Nothing about Intercessors makes them Elite though besides you saying they should be. They're a Troop choice because they have basic wargear and fulfill the troop role of being rank-file.

Intercessors are Troops as they fulfil the same role as basic marines. they are the troops best stationed on the frontlines holding your fortifications and objectives.

Inceptors are fast attack as they manoeuvre quickly across the battlefield to shore up falling defences and to carry out opportunistic raids on weaker outposts and blunt enemy advances before they reach your lines.

Reivers are elites because they are the ones responsible for breaking the enemies front line, disrupting chain of command or exposing weak points for exploitation in preparation for a major assault. their only gear is that which makes them able to attack from unprecedented angles to nullify or bypass enemy fortifications, not to increase the speed at which they move or reposition.

Intercessors and Reivers could be usefull if they had the primaris-version of weapons options of assault and tactical squad.

A Intercessor 10-man squad with a Sargeant with primaris-combi plasma, one man with a hellblaster-like plasma rifle and a primaris-equivalent lass canon? Yes please.

The fact that GW wants to make them their separate thing just makes them useless.

 Galas wrote:
Intercessors and Reivers could be usefull if they had the primaris-version of weapons options of assault and tactical squad.

A Intercessor 10-man squad with a Sargeant with primaris-combi plasma, one man with a hellblaster-like plasma rifle and a primaris-equivalent lass canon? Yes please.

The fact that GW wants to make them their separate thing just makes them useless.

Personally against primaris combi weapons.

i like that they are different as to not step on tactical toes (regardless of how people feel about them)

their one and only focus is anti infantry and thats how it should be. as they are designed in the old style of legion formations.

my main problem with primarus is that they are heavily overlapping anti infantry.

Intercssor: bolters
reivers: bolters
aggressors: bolters
inceptors: bolters

i like were the hellblasters are
repulsor.... is nice but just way too overloaded.
redemptor is ok.

While ridiculously expensive, Inceptors do have a Plasma loadout.

duWhee wrote:
While ridiculously expensive, Inceptors do have a Plasma loadout.

Too expensive to be worth it imho.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nothing about Intercessors makes them Elite though besides you saying they should be. They're a Troop choice because they have basic wargear and fulfill the troop role of being rank-file.

How many troops have two wounds and some AP in their "basic" weapons? Regular bolters have lower range and no AP, those are basic weapons. How many troops are that big? How many troops cannot be embarked in regular transports?

Tac Marines are regular troops, intercessors are troops because they're the new GW shiny new toys and they need to sell them.

Intercessors are hot garbage, so it doesn't matter what slot they take up in the game, their real slot is "dumpster fire".

They could make every Primaris model a troop, and it would change nothing.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nothing about Intercessors makes them Elite though besides you saying they should be. They're a Troop choice because they have basic wargear and fulfill the troop role of being rank-file.

How many troops have two wounds and some AP in their "basic" weapons? Regular bolters have lower range and no AP, those are basic weapons. How many troops are that big? How many troops cannot be embarked in regular transports?

Tac Marines are regular troops, intercessors are troops because they're the new GW shiny new toys and they need to sell them.

Tyranid Warriors? Grey Knight Terminators? Kataphrons? Not sure if there's more off the top of my head.

Yeah just a few ones though, and some of them, especially tyranids warriors (they already have several other troop choices of an appropriate size) and terminators (making terminators troops is a mistake as huge as making bikers troops), shouldn't be troops as well

However some armies have just a few units like grey hunters or ad mech, it can be acceptable that units that would be elites/fast attack/heavy support elsewhere are actually troops. In fact both ad mech and grey knights shouldn't have their own codex IMHO but they should be part of larger factions, not independent armies. Inquisition+Grey Knights+SoB and AM+Ad mech to be precise.


But primaris are part of the SM army, not a possible allied one, just regular SM units. And SM troops are little humies.

Maybe my hatred towards primaris makes me a little bit bitter about them IMHO none of their units should be troops unless they are an independent faction, but I respect other opinions.

Why do you hate Primaris? They're terrible.

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you hate Primaris? They're terrible.

Not for their stats, I hate huge models in general, and I can't stand marines that size Especially if they're troops. They're nothing more than bigger tacticals, they add nothing to the game and I think they should never exist, furthermore several people think they're going to replace the standard SM line and this is something I fear, but in general I see new releases with an adjusted size, way bigger than before, like the huge plague marines and the mastodontic mortarion.

That's why I hate them

If they replace the actual marine line, I'm out. Maybe a blessing in disguise, really.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you hate Primaris? They're terrible.

Not for their stats, I hate huge models in general, and I can't stand marines that size Especially if they're troops. They're nothing more than bigger tacticals, they add nothing to the game and I think they should never exist, furthermore several people think they're going to replace the standard SM line and this is something I fear, but in general I see new releases with an adjusted size, way bigger than before, like the huge plague marines and the mastodontic mortarion.

That's why I hate them

That's kinda a lame reason to be honest.

Martel732 wrote:
If they replace the actual marine line, I'm out. Maybe a blessing in disguise, really.

Honestly Martel I don't know why you're still here. The amount of bitterness you seem to carry with you in every thread reminds me of all of us WFB players when GW squatted our game. Have you considered taking a break? It helped me a lot to just leave the hobby completely for a year and then come back with a fresh attitude.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you hate Primaris? They're terrible.

Not for their stats, I hate huge models in general, and I can't stand marines that size Especially if they're troops. They're nothing more than bigger tacticals, they add nothing to the game and I think they should never exist, furthermore several people think they're going to replace the standard SM line and this is something I fear, but in general I see new releases with an adjusted size, way bigger than before, like the huge plague marines and the mastodontic mortarion.

That's why I hate them

That's kinda a lame reason to be honest.

I appreciate GW games mostly for the hobby part and the aesthetics of the models. You consider 40k only for its statistics, like baseball. I can understand why my reasons look lame into your eyes

 argonak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If they replace the actual marine line, I'm out. Maybe a blessing in disguise, really.

Honestly Martel I don't know why you're still here. The amount of bitterness you seem to carry with you in every thread reminds me of all of us WFB players when GW squatted our game. Have you considered taking a break? It helped me a lot to just leave the hobby completely for a year and then come back with a fresh attitude.

The attitude may be fresh, but the game is always the same. I like reading martel's posts, they let me know exactly where the game (and my ba) stand at any given moment. But, and i mean no offence here, martel you're a masochist. There's no blessing in disguise, it'd be a blessing for you and your sanity. This is the way the game is *always* going to be. A certain build of marines will be the poster child for marine op-ness and gw's love, while every other marine in existence sucks balls. It could be fixed - but it won't.

BA had their time under the sun in 4-th and 5-th when they were quite op. Rhino rushes. And than assault squad spam and furioso dreads that could evaporate a squad of boyz in one go. While ultramarines were just generic underperforming bunch.

 koooaei wrote:
BA had their time under the sun in 4-th and 5-th when they were quite op. Rhino rushes. And than assault squad spam and furioso dreads that could evaporate a squad of boyz in one go. While ultramarines were just generic underperforming bunch.

Umm..... no.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you hate Primaris? They're terrible.

Not for their stats, I hate huge models in general, and I can't stand marines that size Especially if they're troops. They're nothing more than bigger tacticals, they add nothing to the game and I think they should never exist, furthermore several people think they're going to replace the standard SM line and this is something I fear, but in general I see new releases with an adjusted size, way bigger than before, like the huge plague marines and the mastodontic mortarion.

That's why I hate them

That's kinda a lame reason to be honest.

I appreciate GW games mostly for the hobby part and the aesthetics of the models. You consider 40k only for its statistics, like baseball. I can understand why my reasons look lame into your eyes

I mean I get that because my Intercessors are gonna be Marines with Boarding Shields, but that's because I like Mk3 armor and I absolutely hate the eagle on the chest of every marine. I hate bling. A lot. I made my stand-up Huron a Mk3 Marine simply because I like the armor that much.

However hating the model size is kinda lame because they're supposed to be bigger Marines. Outside what I came up with I don't know how else you can really represent that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean I get that because my Intercessors are gonna be Marines with Boarding Shields, but that's because I like Mk3 armor and I absolutely hate the eagle on the chest of every marine. I hate bling. A lot. I made my stand-up Huron a Mk3 Marine simply because I like the armor that much.

However hating the model size is kinda lame because they're supposed to be bigger Marines. Outside what I came up with I don't know how else you can really represent that.

Aesthetically, all of the primaris marines are out of character when compared to all the units that exist in the game.
The 28mm 'heroic' scale figures have a certain cartoonish aesthetic to them. Primaris units don't.