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I certainly agree that the Guard traits seem generally well thought-out and just much better designed, and of course there are lots more of them, but I don't really understand saying that they seem more powerful than the Eldar traits.

The Ulthwe trait is by itself significantly better than every Guard trait. Every Guard regiment would trade for this in a second. Like, the Catachan trait is a 21% increase in the firepower of d6-shot weapons. That's its best case -- it is less good than this for every other kind of variable shot weapon and does nothing for other weapons and doesn't help infantry at range at all. Ulthwe gets 20% more durability on absolutely everything. Granted, S4 on infantry is potentially a big deal in some cases but these are rare. Conscripts with 6+ FNP would be even sillier than they already are.

And it looks like Alatoic will have the coveted Raven Guard trait, which again every Guard regiment would happily trade for. Guard armies can easily keep everything 12" away from the stuff they want to protect.

It's true that the other 3 Eldar traits are a lot less good than these two, but that's just because they're more in line with the Guard traits in terms of power level -- note that the Iyanden trait is still a strictly better version of the Valhallan one.

 Elbows wrote:
-1 to hit over 12" would absolutely be better. That's really tough, though you'd have to build an entire Eldar force around it, because Eldar have two ranges:

1) Too close.
2) Slightly less close.

And to be Alaitoc you'll have to get Rangers to be worthwhile and not wildly overpriced garbage Or, oddly the Alaitoc craftworld trait will be used on tanks and Wraithknights instead of actual rangers and scouts.

Dark Reapers and Rangers would be pretty good for Alaitoc. And war walkers, I guess, but they still need a big points drop.

Rangers would be -2 to hit, with a 3+ save in cover. That almost makes them worth their excessive points cost, if only as objective campers. If only their guns were any good. But then thats what Reapers are for.

I think the -1 to hit past 12" trait is really good even for close-range units. It's a little rough for actual CC units, but I'd happily take it on everything else, especially vehicles. Just because your unit is within 12" of the thing you want to shoot at doesn't mean that every enemy unit that wants to shoot back will be within 12".

Big models especially love that trait because they're mostly scared of heavy weapons. You can happily just bring them 12.1" away from a lascannon devastator squad and count on the trait to work -- they either stand still and shoot you at -1 or they move within 12" and then still shoot at -1.

Edit: The other important point about the Raven Guard trait is that it's good on units that want to be close to the enemy because the trait gives your opponent a reason to get close to them. That's exactly what you want! Keeping away from you is a much less viable option.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I certainly agree that the Guard traits seem generally well thought-out and just much better designed, and of course there are lots more of them, but I don't really understand saying that they seem more powerful than the Eldar traits.

The Ulthwe trait is by itself significantly better than every Guard trait. Every Guard regiment would trade for this in a second. Like, the Catachan trait is a 21% increase in the firepower of d6-shot weapons. That's its best case -- it is less good than this for every other kind of variable shot weapon and does nothing for other weapons and doesn't help infantry at range at all. Ulthwe gets 20% more durability on absolutely everything. Granted, S4 on infantry is potentially a big deal in some cases but these are rare. Conscripts with 6+ FNP would be even sillier than they already are.

And it looks like Alatoic will have the coveted Raven Guard trait, which again every Guard regiment would happily trade for. Guard armies can easily keep everything 12" away from the stuff they want to protect.

It's true that the other 3 Eldar traits are a lot less good than these two, but that's just because they're more in line with the Guard traits in terms of power level -- note that the Iyanden trait is still a strictly better version of the Valhallan one.

The reason the traits are lackluster, is because Eldar units are so stupidly expensive for what they can do. The Ulthwe trait on 120 conscripts would be stupidly good, making them as survivable as ...140 conscripts? (quick head math, might be wrong). Lots of shots, lots of survivability, would be great.

Ulthwe trait on 40 guardians makes them as survivable as... 46 guardians. So not really anywhere near as big a deal.

Both these units cost the same. So yeh, all the traits would work better for guard, because guard has a lot more units/models that would benefit from them, which multiplies its usefulness. Eldar, being so elite (read, expensive) means they don't really get significant benefit from any of these.

The Iyanden one would also be better on IG, because they can field an army of tanks/superheavies/etc which all have degrading stats, so it would be good to have them all degrade slower. Eldar vehicles are much more expensive, so you're likely to only have 4 or 5 degrading statlines in an army at most. So while our version of the trait might be slightly better, it will actually have -less- impact on the army as a whole because it effects less units.


Will it end up being balanced? Hard to say. Will depend on all the points reductions and rules changes Eldar get. They need a lot of points drops (from the sounds of things, we are at least getting some). I think we will balance with Admech and non-gulliman space marines. Maybe non-primarch Chaos as well. But any Primarch army or any Imperial Soup / dedicated IG army will be in another league.


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Dionysodorus wrote:
I think the -1 to hit past 12" trait is really good even for close-range units. It's a little rough for actual CC units, but I'd happily take it on everything else, especially vehicles. Just because your unit is within 12" of the thing you want to shoot at doesn't mean that every enemy unit that wants to shoot back will be within 12".

Big models especially love that trait because they're mostly scared of heavy weapons. You can happily just bring them 12.1" away from a lascannon devastator squad and count on the trait to work -- they either stand still and shoot you at -1 or they move within 12" and then still shoot at -1.

Edit: The other important point about the Raven Guard trait is that it's good on units that want to be close to the enemy because the trait gives your opponent a reason to get close to them. That's exactly what you want! Keeping away from you is a much less viable option.

This is a good point. Problem is that if they are trying to get within 12" of you, they'll do it with units that -want- to be within 12" of you. Like flamers or assault units. Which will destroy your fragile Elven bodies.

Yes, right, Guard have a ton of really aggressively-priced units. That's why they're so good. It's not the traits. Eldar might end up being a lot worse even though they have at least two traits which are much better. I was just objecting to your characterization of the Eldar traits as minor buffs in comparison to the Guard ones. It's the Guard ones that are minor buffs, but they're applied to some really powerful units.

I disagree that Eldar being expensive means they get less benefit from the traits. Sure, a durability buff to Guardians is of limited use because you don't want them getting shot in the first place, but the same buff to the Serpents the Guardians are riding in is going to do a lot. You could say the same about Guard Command Squads not benefiting from durability type buffs. They're alpha strike units; it's not about price.

If Fire Prisms are fairly costed then the Alatoic trait is fantastic for them same as it would be for Russes. It's not like they're even notably more expensive than a Russ.

I don't think Biel Tan is as bad as some are suggesting but YMMV depending on how you play the Craftworld. I have always tended towards a mixed mechanised style. If you like Dire Avengers (assuming the cost reduction is significant) and Jetbikes then the re-roll is really quite decent. It's also fairly decent for Scorpions and Banshees.

A blanket bonus for Aspects would certainly be better but the attribute is hardly useless. An Ld boost is nice enough - it significantly reduces the risk of losing models to a bad roll.

Frankly I'm not a big fan of doctrines/army wide special bonuses because GW has a notoriously bad track record of balancing such things. Some players seem to be pinning all their hopes on a single attribute. Seems like poor game design if it affects the balance to that extent.

Biel tan actually sounds like it has potential, but it's best used on Guardians....when Biel Tan's traditional shtick was to use lots and lots of aspect warriors.

It's like giving World Eaters a +1 BS and making that their racial trait. Useful, and may be used with their premier units, but not exactly optimal and doesn't really encourage their supposed playstyle.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Biel tan actually sounds like it has potential, but it's best used on Guardians....when Biel Tan's traditional shtick was to use lots and lots of aspect warriors.

It's like giving World Eaters a +1 BS and making that their racial trait. Useful, and may be used with their premier units, but not exactly optimal and doesn't really encourage their supposed playstyle.

Dire Avengers are Aspect Warriors and could therefore be viewed as the core unit in a Biel Tan force. Here's hoping the cost reduction is sufficient.

As I said on the Rumour thread, I think it's a misconception that a fluffy Biel Tan army comprises Aspect Warriors exclusively. Ulthwe and Biel Tan are the two more generic Craftworlds and always have been. The former has slightly more emphasis on psykers and Guardian/support units and the latter slightly more emphasis on Aspect Warriors. But you could build a balanced Craftworld force that could just as easily represent one as the other.

To use an Aspect Warrior army effectively you still require a decent firebase to soften up the enemy. Windriders and Vypers fill this role perfectly in a mechanised Swordwind force.

Just to back up Enigma, the heavy use of Aspects has only ever been a reflection of Biel-Tan's more militant outlook. Let's refluff it a little...:

"Cadia: constant raiding and universal enrolment in the Junior Platoons means that the average Cadian could almost operate a lasgun with their feet, and very few are ever without at least a laspistol, even in the shower blocks.

Cadian's may reroll 1's when using laser weapons"

It's a similar thing with Biel-Tan.

To be fair, from a 'fluff' viewpoint I actually think that GW have suffered a self-inflicted wound by tying traits to 'named' entities rather than, perhaps, concepts. If these were more akin to 'Chapter/Regimental Traits' and were instead called "Bladestorm", "Uncanny Foresight" and similar, rather than "Biel-Tan", or "Ultramarines", or "Valhalla", I don't think there would be quite as much complaining about the 'feel' of many of them. It is much easier to put CRAFTWORLD or REGIMENT on the data sheet as a shorthand than YOUR INTERPRETATION OF HOW THIS FACTION WORKS however!

Which would be fine, if Swordwind were about massive application of a type of weapon. Swordwind is about relatively small amounts of many different weapons/units/etc. So having a Swordwind trait that only buffs one feels like it's a rejection of the core principle.

Swordwind isn't merely about being a superior force. Monk'ka, Spirit Hosts, Black Guardian Warhosts, etc, are also big on being stronger. Swordwind is about utilizing many different specialized techniques and gear, from many different types of actors.

The trait buffs only one of the "thousand" different blades the type is supposed to carry. And does so in a way to discourage Autarchs. And the other buff discourages Avatars. My complaint isn't that it's weak, it's that it doesn't feel like Swordwind.

I agree that I wish they'd call them types:
-Spirit Host
-Guardian Warhost
-Swordwind
-Ride the Wind
etc.

At the end of the day, it's about as boneheaded as CWE tanks being just as bad as Imperial tanks at firing on the move. It's annoying. I'll complain. But it's not gamebreaking. It's not going to even be that big a deal. Other things are more important.

But look at the other things in the dex. Wraithlords going back to T8? So they're more durable to bolter fire than SM bikers again! DAs going down at least 2 ppm? Spirit Seers not costing so much? They are doing a lot right.

I'm excited, but was hoping for a great Aspect Warrior attribute (I play an Uthwe Aspect Host lead by Asurman, so using Uthwe's trait isn't such a big deal. And with Asurman, I may not be able to take a trait anyways).


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(great as in fitting, not OP. I'd be happy with something like Exarchs reroll 1s to hit or worse).

I'd partly disagree on the "discourage Autarchs" bit, Bharring. I think it's an indirect attempt at encouraging them. Biel-Tan has been stated as having quite a few but even if it was just an all-Aspect oost, why would a Biel-Tan force ever use one? Instead, thy can now leave the unglamorous 'line' infantry to cope on their own and go along with the more 'close-in' warriors which is where the artwork tends to put Autarchs anyway (to my memory at least).

Not to say that it's quite how it will pan out on the table, but there's a chain of logic there. And believe me, as an Aspect devotee myself (my own craftworld though) I was hoping for something a bit more universal too, but I can find a use for this one. Certainly after the last game (all those 1's and I couldn't cast Guide if my life had depended on it, sheesh...)!

Also agree on the tanks (to my mind, Eldar traits should have emphasised mobility, but equally we don't have the full picture yet) but that's for another thread!

But aren't the line infantry either backfielding Guardians only shooting a heavy usually, or up close? Our line infantry weapons have 12" or 18" range - we have to get close.

I'm sure the attribute will help a little. But it just feels like it's encouraging everything but my Aspects.


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This isn't a complaint about the other tactics - but I may actually take Samm-Hain with 0 jetbikes.

In my Aspect Host, towards the endgame, most things - even DAs - wind up assaulting into *something*. My lists usually have a few CC units, and it's helpful to have the extra bodies in the CCs (to take heat off of Asurmen/Scorpions/Banshees/etc). So rerolling all charges - when you typically need to get 3 or 4 units into an Assault to make it go your way reliably - would be awesome.

Sometimes I have Shining Spears in that list, but they don't have heavy weapons. Being able to add a Vyper or 2 for a nimble heavy weapon - probably will still underperform vs a War Walker, but feels a little more in step - would be fun from time to time.

I'll probably just use Uthwe (if I can use any with a PL), because my guys are Uthwe. But Samm-Hain might be worthwhile.

 Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Biel tan actually sounds like it has potential, but it's best used on Guardians....when Biel Tan's traditional shtick was to use lots and lots of aspect warriors.

It's like giving World Eaters a +1 BS and making that their racial trait. Useful, and may be used with their premier units, but not exactly optimal and doesn't really encourage their supposed playstyle.

Dire Avengers are Aspect Warriors and could therefore be viewed as the core unit in a Biel Tan force. Here's hoping the cost reduction is sufficient.

As I said on the Rumour thread, I think it's a misconception that a fluffy Biel Tan army comprises Aspect Warriors exclusively. Ulthwe and Biel Tan are the two more generic Craftworlds and always have been. The former has slightly more emphasis on psykers and Guardian/support units and the latter slightly more emphasis on Aspect Warriors. But you could build a balanced Craftworld force that could just as easily represent one as the other.

To use an Aspect Warrior army effectively you still require a decent firebase to soften up the enemy. Windriders and Vypers fill this role perfectly in a mechanised Swordwind force.

I would respectfully disagree, but I would also like to point out that my views are colored by the 3rd ed Craftworld Codex supplement. That one you could field almost any aspect warrior (I think the only ones you couldn't were Warp Spiders and Shining spears. correct me if i'm wrong as I think Dark Reapers was in there too, not sure since it's been a while since I cracked the book) as troops and was encouraged to do so. Guardians, meanwhile, were in a supportive role and weren't the focus of the army (whereas Ulthwe did have guardians as a focus). If I remember, you couldn't even field guardians as troops in a Biel Tan force, meaning you had to take aspect warriors of some kind (Guardians got shifted to elites or FA if I remember). While Biel Tan's ability is useful, it is not thematic to them as (like I compared to) it would be like giving World Eaters +1 BS. It's useful, and can help them support their primary troops, but it's not thematic for a force that focuses largely on close combat.

This is in contrast with Alaitoc, whos Pathfinders were actually supportive elements (you still needed to field guardians for your core troop choices) in the 3rd edition codex, yet that was basically their shtick. And being troops this edition, they got a very fitting trait since Eldar Snipers are one of the few Eldar units that do want to just sit in a corner, far away from the enemy, and just shoot.

 Galef wrote:

craftworld_uk wrote:
Oh wow, I didn't realise the others had been leaked. Though I notice the wording isn't exact - like +1 Ld when it should say specific to Aspect units - so it will be good to get it from official sources.

the wording being different gives me hope that the Saim-Hann trait doesn't just apply to Jetbikes. The reroll charges part may, but it would make sense if the whole army did not suffer the -1 to hit for moving with Heavy weapons. It would make the non-Serpent tanks appealing....or make Bright-lance Serpents better.

I have a hunch that things like "Sam-Haim ability to improve jetbikes" will be in the Strategems, while the "traits" are things that affect the army as a whole and give it a certain flavor.

 Galef wrote:

the wording being different gives me hope that the Saim-Hann trait doesn't just apply to Jetbikes. The reroll charges part may, but it would make sense if the whole army did not suffer the -1 to hit for moving with Heavy weapons. It would make the non-Serpent tanks appealing....or make Bright-lance Serpents better.

I'm sorry looks like it's the other way around re-roll failed charges for all, ignore penalties for jetbikes.

But the way it sounds with the Biel-Tan is anything with a shuriken weapon and that attribute gets rerolls 1. That could be amazing. Dire avengers, banshees, scorpions, jet bikes, wraith lords with catapults, warwalkers, grave tanks, all of these things can have shuriken weapons on them and if you focus on them then that's a lot of reroll 1's, 6's are at ap-3.

Until we see the rest of the codex we can't for sure say "this is worse than that" because a lot can modify things. What if they also have a rule in a different part that says "Biel-Tan aspect warriors count as troops, their guardians count as elites" or "Iyanden wraith units count as troops as long as you take a spirit seer as an hq choice"

Fun to speculate but I will wait until I see it. (Especially since my units paint scheme is close to Biel-Tan).

Azuza001 wrote:
But the way it sounds with the Biel-Tan is anything with a shuriken weapon and that attribute gets rerolls 1. That could be amazing. Dire avengers, banshees, scorpions, jet bikes, wraith lords with catapults, warwalkers, grave tanks, all of these things can have shuriken weapons on them and if you focus on them then that's a lot of reroll 1's, 6's are at ap-3.

Until we see the rest of the codex we can't for sure say "this is worse than that" because a lot can modify things. What if they also have a rule in a different part that says "Biel-Tan aspect warriors count as troops, their guardians count as elites" or "Iyanden wraith units count as troops as long as you take a spirit seer as an hq choice"

Fun to speculate but I will wait until I see it. (Especially since my units paint scheme is close to Biel-Tan).

Not just "from the way it sounds".
It's literally anything that has "Shuriken" in its name--along with a specific relic.

Minor correction: it's any shuriken weapons used, not for units equipped with shuriken weapons. So Banshees don't reroll Triskeles or sword to-hit rolls of 1. Rangers don't reroll sniper shots of 1.

Azuza001 wrote:
But the way it sounds with the Biel-Tan is anything with a shuriken weapon and that attribute gets rerolls 1. That could be amazing. Dire avengers, banshees, scorpions, jet bikes, wraith lords with catapults, warwalkers, grave tanks, all of these things can have shuriken weapons on them and if you focus on them then that's a lot of reroll 1's, 6's are at ap-3.

As said above, the rerolls are only for shuriken weapons, not models armed with them.

Also, it sounds like you think rolls of 6+ to hit with shuriken weapons become AP-3, it's wound rolls of 6+.

Slightly off-topic here, but how do people feel about Vypers becoming BIKERs?

'Bout time!

Even if it gives less than it would have in 6th/7th.

Rerolling 1 to hit is effectively a 16% damage boost (and a considerably boost in reliability - although with Shuriken you are usually rolling enough dice you average out.)

This is not bad - but probably not enough to make bad/average units great. Also you get the bonus anyway if you have an Autark in 6". The Ld benefit is very marginal unless you are running big squads of aspect warriors and I am not seeing why you ever would (banshees/scorpions maybe?).

We need the codex to know whether fairly weak units have got cost reductions to the point where they are pretty good. Dire avengers not being comically over-costed is nice - but there is a major difference between being say 15 points (still crap) and 10 points (suddenly quite good). Guardians would be less of a joke if they were 6-7 points rather than 9.

Anyway - Saim-Hann is out. Reroll charges on all units, ignore the -1 for moving and shooting a heavy weapon on bikes (including Vypers apparently). Bikes and the scatter laser (oh no) are getting point reductions.

Not totally sure that's going to be competitive. Guess it depends if they make bikes broken again.

 Happyjew wrote:
Slightly off-topic here, but how do people feel about Vypers becoming BIKERs?

Considering how that synergizes with the Saim-hann trait, I like it. Buy it still depends on how much cheaper they are. If 2 Vypers are still more expensive than 1 Serpent, than it won't matter.

I never ment to make it sound like I was suggesting that the unit gets to reroll even if not using the shuriken, I ment you get shuriken based weapons on these things, and could potentially get a lot of shuriken based weapons on some of these thing's.

 Happyjew wrote:
Slightly off-topic here, but how do people feel about Vypers becoming BIKERs?

My reaction is: FINALLY. They're Vyper JETBIKES.

Rerolls are slightly more useful for guns that have an effect on a certain result like shuriken does. Just saying.

Tyel wrote:
Also you get the bonus anyway if you have an Autark in 6".

I don't get this attitude. Autarch and Avatars can't be everywhere at once and handing out rerolls and Ld bonuses to everyone. The trait frees them to be useful elsewhere while similtaniously giving your army a bit more freedom rather than having to make sure they're in shouting distance of their boss.

Not having a go at you personally but I've seen people say stuff to this effect. It screams at me that they don't understand the implications or intention of traits.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Also you get the bonus anyway if you have an Autark in 6".

I don't get this attitude. Autarch and Avatars can't be everywhere at once and handing out rerolls and Ld bonuses to everyone. The trait frees them to be useful elsewhere while similtaniously giving your army a bit more freedom rather than having to make sure they're in shouting distance of their boss.

Not having a go at you personally but I've seen people say stuff to this effect. It screams at me that they don't understand the implications or intention of traits.

Well I can't speak to the intention but why bother taking a trait when I can use an Autarch to get the same effect AND a better trait anyway?

Combatcotton,
That would only really matter if it were rerolls to the same roll. Otherwise, it's basically just a 16% increase in volume of fire. Reroll to-wounds of 1 on Shuriken weapons, that might have been broken...

pm713 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Also you get the bonus anyway if you have an Autark in 6".

I don't get this attitude. Autarch and Avatars can't be everywhere at once and handing out rerolls and Ld bonuses to everyone. The trait frees them to be useful elsewhere while similtaniously giving your army a bit more freedom rather than having to make sure they're in shouting distance of their boss.

Not having a go at you personally but I've seen people say stuff to this effect. It screams at me that they don't understand the implications or intention of traits.

Well I can't speak to the intention but why bother taking a trait when I can use an Autarch to get the same effect AND a better trait anyway?

Why is your Autarch limited to just babysitting Dire Avengers? Why can't he, now that the dire avengers don't need him for rerolls join some fire dragons or warp spiders or war walkers or something?