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We won't see the true futility until more Xeno codices drop. At this point, it's all prognostication.

Also, I was very specific about timeframe in my post.

Obviously I exaggerated in my last post but let’s not pretend the naysayers amongst marine players are the only ones exaggerating their points.

Space Marines have options for tanks, but when the majority of those options are overpriced underperformers, they aren’t real options deserving of serious considerations. Chapter Tactics applying to dreads and not tanks means a ven dread is almost always the more efficient choice.

Razorbacks and, to a lesser extent, Predators are the reasonable choices for marine tanks. Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Hunters and Stalkers are all poor choices. Land Raiders don’t have the same mobility and flexibility as a Stormraven so cost a lot for less utility.

This is a game of specialists and marine players pay a premium to be generalists. As for nid tanks; I’d take a carnifex over a dreadnought any day and an exocrine or variant over basically any marine battle tank every single time.

CWE tanks cost similar, and excel against marine tanks in basically every way. They get craftworld traits, more wargear options, and more durability. The Wave Serpent alone carries more than a Rhino, is more heavily armed than a Razor and is more durable than a Pred. That’s before you factor in Fly. It’s a ridiculously durable unit in a glass cannon army.

Games Workshop’s propensity to releasing slapped together factions in standalone codexes like AdMech, Grey Knights, etc. doesn’t diminish that Space Marine tanks are crap. It means they are screwed as well. The factions that have existed for 20+ years and have been shown real support for that amount of time have superior tanks and are getting special rules to boost them even more. I disagree with the thread’s premise that Space Marines are trash tier but I laugh at anyone who thinks they are better than middling. Clearly they’re the baseline for an edition GW is designing as it goes, as we can see a new baseline form in the pattern of the majority of the last 4-5 books.

Customization being touted as a virtue for marines as if a tac marine with a jump pack and chainsword is any sort of melee specialist compared to scorpions or banshees is laughable. The marine customization is less customizable than most seem to think. “But you can choose from 5+ different special and heavy weapons in Tac squads”, while true, is disingenuous in an edition that is dominated by plasma. Plasma is basically always the most versatile and efficient loadout so customization is a nonstarter.

Marine haters playing a superior book; you’re still good players, your superior book doesn’t put an asterisk next to your win column. Marine haters who play a half-faction and envy the number of unit entries in codex space marines; I’m sorry GW doesn’t care about you. You obviously win the gold at the GW oppression Olympics but it isn’t all sunshine and roses over here either.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Only if you define "Dead-center of the currently-released Codecies at the time I post this" as the merit in the statement "SM is the worst codex in the game!".

Hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool, to shake things up. But when it turns out that your excessive statement is about how bad the *exact middle* has it, the argument gets rightly dismissed.

I see no positive merit in the original statement. It's like complaining you got the least food, to point out you didn't get enough, when you got the exactly average amount.

They aren't - they are the bottom - gk is the only codex army that is statistically worse at this point.

By definition (bottom = the lowest point or part.)
I think we can agree that admech GK And deathguard are likely all below said point. Therefore they are not bottom.

I agree solidly with what BHarring stated. Further, the overarching argument remains focused on wanting to be better than space elves. Further supporting my suggestion that the name of the thread would be more accurate if it reflected the actual intent.


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A more effective way too deal with the perception that space elves are unfairly represented by superior rules would be to nerf space elves with points increases or through some other means.

By focusing on giving buffs to space marines, you only seek to raise SM standings at the expense of everyone else. If you extend those buffs to everyone else then you raise the specter of having yet another army rise in perceived power level, potentially precipitating another 30 page thread whining about how space marines need to be the best.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

If customization mattered that much, Chosen and Sternguard would be gotten way more use than actually done.

You mean they might not be taken because there are a lot more choices to choose from too. And often choices within those units.

Which means the specialized units are taken more. Hmmmmmmmm...

The WaveSerpent is not more heavily armed than a Razorback.

-A BL Serpent gets 2 BL shots - S8 @ 36"
-A LC Razor gets 2 Lascannon shots - S9 @ 48"

-A SC Serpent can get 9x S6 PseudoRending shots @24"
-An AssaultCannon Razorback can get 12 S6 Ap-1 shots @24"

In both cases, the Razorback has more firepower. And, for notably less.

Fly is good.

Dark Eldar are the Glass Cannon army. CWE have - and always have had - rather durable tanks. Those tanks aren't glass cannon, and don't pay glass-cannon prices (or rather, don't get glass-cannon firepower at their pricepoint). So if you're fighting a CWE Tank army, you're not fighting glass cannon. Compare their firepower to equal points of DE or SM or AM, and it's not a lot. They pay points for their durability (mostly - the RG/AL/Alaitoc trait was dirty even before it went on Tanks).

The Serpent can't shoot as well as a Pred or Razorback. The Serpent can't survive as well as a StormRaven. The Serpent can't transport as cost-effectively as a Rhino. But it can do a decent amount of each. Again, much like the basic, much maligned Tac Marine.

I still think it's a little too good, but when we say it's more heavily armed than a Razorback, we're not being accurate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

Is the Dread a shooting platform like the Tyrannofex is?


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Bharring wrote:
Neither platform needs to move usually. Just making sure people aren't mistaking the Prism for having abilities it doesn't - that's been very common in this thread.

Also, aren't you usually arguing that generalists who are worse at a given role than specialists are useless? So here we have a Prism which is worse at any given role than the SM counterpart, because it's a generalist, and you're complaining the SM counterparts can't compete?

Seeing as the Prism actually isn't far behind the Predator and is significantly cheaper (it's maybe 165 points?), you sure on that?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

Is the Dread a shooting platform like the Tyrannofex is?

Doesn't that make the T-fex inefficient since it has to pay for cc ability even though its a shooting platform?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

Is the Dread a shooting platform like the Tyrannofex is?

Doesn't that make the T-fex inefficient since it has to pay for cc ability even though its a shooting platform?

It's a multi roll too...this is actual versatility.

Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

In your efforts to make me look foolish you just make yourself look foolish. Dreads are comparable to CARNIFEX. Which is literally one of the best units in the game ATM.

117 points. Standard. 24 str 6 shots with BS3+ and -1 to hit it + an army trait. That's how you would build it competitively. It could have 12 shots and 4 dreadnought attack too (pretty sure it would be better than any dread in this form too)

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

sennacherib wrote:By definition (bottom = the lowest point or part.)
I think we can agree that admech GK And deathguard are likely all below said point. Therefore they are not bottom.

I don’t agree on Death Guard. Codex: Ultramarines might be, but does the data support that? i.e. do we have any tournament listings where mono-Marines have consistently outperformed mono-Death Guard?

I would contend that Codex: Other Chapters is worse than DG. Has there been any significant tournament success for Codex: Other Chapters since the flyer nerf?

I know everybody can come up with examples where Guard + Marines has beaten Chaos + DG in tournament standings. However, using the argument that Codex: Imperial Soup is stronger than Codex: Chaos Soup to say that Codex: Space Marines is stronger than Codex: Death Guard is comparing apples to oranges to prove that pears are better than bananas. It’s just nonsensical. We’re not debating which soup is the chunkiest, but which Codex book is more competitive.

Admech are an interesting one. They have less options, but the options they do have seem marginally more competitive IMO. Both have a subfaction-specific superhero that does a lot of the heavy lifting (Guilliman and Cawl). Guilliman helps more than Cawl does, so I’d happily say that Uktramarine are stronger than Mars. But using other sub factions (and hence not using the two superheroes), I think the Marines lose out more than the Admech do. That is, non-Cawl Admech are stronger than non-Guilliman Marines.

Therefore, I would say it thus:

Death Guard / Ultramarines
Ademch
Other Chapters
Grey Knights

Considering there are a lot more non-Ultramarines Chapters, I’d have to say we should use the Other Chapters spot. So IMO, the Marine Codex sits at second to last.

Poor GK...

Bharring wrote:The WaveSerpent is not more heavily armed than a Razorback.

-A BL Serpent gets 2 BL shots - S8 @ 36"
-A LC Razor gets 2 Lascannon shots - S9 @ 48"

-A SC Serpent can get 9x S6 PseudoRending shots @24"
-An AssaultCannon Razorback can get 12 S6 Ap-1 shots @24"

In both cases, the Razorback has more firepower. And, for notably less.

Fly is good.

Fly isn’t just good, it’s completely broken. Not just for CWE tanks but in general.

In your BL Serpent comparison you’re missing the Shuriken Cannon, and potentially a Storm Bolter for the Razorback. Overall I think it’s fair to say the BL/SCannon Serpent has marginally more firepower than the TLLC/Storm Bolter Razorback. You can add a hunter-killer missile, but it’s only one shot.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

Maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter about them if you also through in a power sword. It’s only 4pts and it would ensure that tau didn’t overcome you in melee. Just a thought.

Most recent tournament data shows marines aren't even being played. Warzone Atlanta has a single grey knight player lol and 8 marine players. The 2 highest placing marine armies was a

Guilliman and tigirus buffing a stormbird (900 points LOW flyer from forge world) and some assasins and agressors - went 3-2. and a balanced looking dark angels army with azreal that went 3-2 in 22. A staggered amount of space wolves place from 20-40 mostly fielding forge world units.

Like...space wolves and dark angels are INDEX marine armies. Can you not gaking see how bad the marine codex is? People chose to play the index over it. LOL.

By comparison - an ork army came in second. AM in first obviously and several CSM and a Daemon army in the top 10...He had 3 flying deamon princes in his army.

 sennacherib wrote:
Hyperbole defined. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

In a serious discussion, hyperbole is a very ineffective tool for convincing anyone but that your point has Merrit.

Greater flexibility is a great benefit that marine and imperial players constantly downplay.

Well, some Imperial players . Sisters in a "pure" list don't really have much flexibility, only in a "soup" list-- and most "soup" lists only use at most two units from the sisters unit list.

Sisters, if they get no or minimal changes, will be worse than C:SM when they get their book.

 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

Maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter about them if you also through in a power sword. It’s only 4pts and it would ensure that tau didn’t overcome you in melee. Just a thought.

2 attacks with a power sword does approximately nothing.

The key here may be that it was a Balanced looking army.
Also, 3-2 isn’t bad. Just because it isn’t an auto win dosnt mean that they are bad.

What do you consider good? Winning every game regardless of what units you take.

Btw. .54 wounds per turn for one dude is not approximately nothing. Approximately nothing is 0.

 sennacherib wrote:
The key here may be that it was a Balanced looking army.
Also, 3-2 isn’t bad. Just because it isn’t an auto win dosnt mean that they are bad.

What do you consider good? Winning every game regardless of what units you take.

Strength of schedule likely had a lot to do with it. I'll focus on the dark angels army because it actually used marine units. Azreal is guilliman level good - honestly I think hes better because you buff your weakness which is durability with a 4++ bubble. This army had no chance to win though. He might have beat armies that had a chance to win it all but it's a real task looking up the matchups and stuff because it is not organized. The key to look at here is - the competitive guilliman powerball isn't even being played anymore -(this is an assumption so bear with me) it is completely shut down by elder with shining spears because they can easily assault all the razors turn 1 - it's no longer a viable army even. If they had chapter tactics ultramarine they might have a chance but since they don't they are murdered in the meta now. So in reality - space marines no longer have a competitive army build.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

In a pinch, five tactical marines could charge a Tyrannofex and stop it from firing for a turn.


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It would not suprise me to not see the Guilliman Razorback buff list much anymore. Imo it's a largely predictable gimmick with some pretty explotable weaknesses. Razorbacks are not that hard to kill if you put your mind to it. Anyone now going to a tourney should have a solution for it.

Marines are just going to have to switch their strategies to counter new stuff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
The key here may be that it was a Balanced looking army.
Also, 3-2 isn’t bad. Just because it isn’t an auto win dosnt mean that they are bad.

What do you consider good? Winning every game regardless of what units you take.

Strength of schedule likely had a lot to do with it. I'll focus on the dark angels army because it actually used marine units. Azreal is guilliman level good - honestly I think hes better because you buff your weakness which is durability with a 4++ bubble. This army had no chance to win though. He might have beat armies that had a chance to win it all but it's a real task looking up the matchups and stuff because it is not organized. The key to look at here is - the competitive guilliman powerball isn't even being played anymore -(this is an assumption so bear with me) it is completely shut down by elder with shining spears because they can easily assault all the razors turn 1 - it's no longer a viable army even. If they had chapter tactics ultramarine they might have a chance but since they don't they are murdered in the meta now. So in reality - space marines no longer have a competitive army build.

You know, I think any army that depends on one thing to make it good is weak. Have you ever tried taking a more balanced army list. Relying entirely on the row boat can be a liability. Also, I feel like 3-2 is a good tournament standing. Skilled players will always do well given a strong codex. Winning every game all the time is indicative of a OP codex or a broken combo.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

In a pinch, five tactical marines could charge a Tyrannofex and stop it from firing for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would not suprise me to not see the Guilliman Razorback buff list much anymore. Imo it's a largely predictable gimmick with some pretty explotable weaknesses. Razorbacks are not that hard to kill if you put your mind to it. Anyone now going to a tourney should have a solution for it.

Marines are just going to have to switch their strategies to counter new stuff.

I agree - I've stated in this thread that guilli and razors is actually easy to beat. I play guilliman buffing 50 primaris marines with an ancient and it's never lost for me but I've not seen it in at tournaments. But they don't have anything else. I think an azreal buff ball with max redemptor dreads has promise but...I don't play chaos so I'll have to let the DA players try that out. None seem to have figured the combo out.


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 sennacherib wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
The key here may be that it was a Balanced looking army.
Also, 3-2 isn’t bad. Just because it isn’t an auto win dosnt mean that they are bad.

What do you consider good? Winning every game regardless of what units you take.

Strength of schedule likely had a lot to do with it. I'll focus on the dark angels army because it actually used marine units. Azreal is guilliman level good - honestly I think hes better because you buff your weakness which is durability with a 4++ bubble. This army had no chance to win though. He might have beat armies that had a chance to win it all but it's a real task looking up the matchups and stuff because it is not organized. The key to look at here is - the competitive guilliman powerball isn't even being played anymore -(this is an assumption so bear with me) it is completely shut down by elder with shining spears because they can easily assault all the razors turn 1 - it's no longer a viable army even. If they had chapter tactics ultramarine they might have a chance but since they don't they are murdered in the meta now. So in reality - space marines no longer have a competitive army build.

You know, I think any army that depends on one thing to make it good is weak. Have you ever tried taking a more balanced army list. Relying entirely on the row boat can be a liability. Also, I feel like 3-2 is a good tournament standing. Skilled players will always do well given a strong codex. Winning every game all the time is indicative of a OP codex or a broken combo.

If you want to place top 10 in a big torny - you need to go 5-0 or 4-1.

The row boat and 50 marines would just get creamed by a horde of cultists and pox walkers. What else is in the list. How many shots per turn.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

Is the Dread a shooting platform like the Tyrannofex is?

Doesn't that make the T-fex inefficient since it has to pay for cc ability even though its a shooting platform?

That's assuming the Tyrannofex actually pays for any CC ability. All Tyranid Monsters have those melee stats with the Crushing limbs or whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

In a pinch, five tactical marines could charge a Tyrannofex and stop it from firing for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would not suprise me to not see the Guilliman Razorback buff list much anymore. Imo it's a largely predictable gimmick with some pretty explotable weaknesses. Razorbacks are not that hard to kill if you put your mind to it. Anyone now going to a tourney should have a solution for it.

Marines are just going to have to switch their strategies to counter new stuff.

In a pinch Scouts would be actually reached the Tyrannofex to charge.

Anything can charge anything but it has to reach. Tactical Marines won't do that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.

oh damn 2 damage, 4 cc attacks?? Wait until you hear about this super overpowered thing called a dreadnought.

Is the Dread a shooting platform like the Tyrannofex is?

Doesn't that make the T-fex inefficient since it has to pay for cc ability even though its a shooting platform?

That's assuming the Tyrannofex actually pays for any CC ability. All Tyranid Monsters have those melee stats with the Crushing limbs or whatever.

And all marines have a WS 3+ and a S 4. Is this thread saying that only marines pay for that, but Tyranid MCs don't pay for their stats?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons. Cute slogans mean nothing to me. Good at a few things master of none implies you are good at some things not bad at everything like a space marine is. Marines do not deserve that title.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Yeah, space marines are multi-role. They're good at two things: one in every five marines is good at holding a lascannon, and the other four are good at dying so the lascannon guy doesn't. :p

Also they aren't good at dying. Literally every other infantry dies better than marines. As in - they give up less points when they die lol.

In a pinch, five tactical marines could charge a Tyrannofex and stop it from firing for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would not suprise me to not see the Guilliman Razorback buff list much anymore. Imo it's a largely predictable gimmick with some pretty explotable weaknesses. Razorbacks are not that hard to kill if you put your mind to it. Anyone now going to a tourney should have a solution for it.

Marines are just going to have to switch their strategies to counter new stuff.

In a pinch Scouts would be actually reached the Tyrannofex to charge.

Anything can charge anything but it has to reach. Tactical Marines won't do that.

Neither here nor there, my point relevant to the thread stands.

 sennacherib wrote:
The row boat and 50 marines would just get creamed by a horde of cultists and pox walkers. What else is in the list. How many shots per turn.

40 overcharged plasma and 60 ap-1 bolters per turn at optimum range. Primaris ancient has the relic standard so everything is fearless and on a 3+ they can shoot back when they die.
guilliman
Tiguris
Primaris Libby
3x 10 man intercessor 1x power sword 3x aux grenade
2x 10 man helblaster all with rifles
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Apoth
Cultist don't scare me. Lots of deep strike plasma does. Manticores scare me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm really not thinking that a tyranofex is paying for it's melle ability. It's basically as tough as a dread in CC with slightly less damage potential vs big targets and high saves. However it shoots better than a predator while being significantly tougher to kill.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Sort of like a space marine. Multi role. Good at a few things master of none.

Except it's a master of ranged anti tank. It first 6 str 10 las cannons.

The thing is 238pts and has to remain stationary (not just under half its move) to shoot twice. Stationary, it's barely edging out a Quadlas Predator in raw stationary damage output against T8 (most anything in the game) and lower targets, narrowly losing to a Quadlas Predator in cost effectiveness against T8 and lower targets while stationary, and massively losing out to a Quadlas Predator if any movement is involved in both senses. I've argued that the Quadlas predator is actually a very effective HS tank hunter unit before, if we're going to call the Tyrannofex a master of ranged anti-tank, we should acknowledge the Predator is pretty damn good too. The Predator is more offensively cost effective, especially so when moving, the Tyrannofex is a harder to kill and costs more, they seem pretty even to me.

Vakathi stop that!

If you keep using good sense and data you'll hurt someone!