Lets talk about the Dyatlov Pass incident

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**Disciple of Fate**

oldravenman3025 wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:

The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.

And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.

The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.

Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.

As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.

True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.

As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.

There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.

The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.

**Ouze**

The only elements of the story that do make sense are them undressing, since it's now pretty well known people freezing to death perceive they are burning up, the tanned skin (since the bodies were exposed for a while), and the missing tongue\etc which were likely scavengers.

**jhe90**

Could it not be maybe some gas or some environmental force that scared them?

You can get some pretty nasty natural gas and chemicals?

Maybe somthing in the water?

Scavengers would find the bodies. Smaller anaimals, orpertunissts. If the bodies had frozen up that might explain how they where less touched. Less smell to draw anaimals. Too solid forzen to be easily eaten.

**LordofHats**

I think I saw some found footage horror film about this once. Turns out it was teleporting monsters that screamed a lot, and movies never lie!

**Grey Templar**

Xenomancers wrote:
It's pretty odd because all the injuries are inconsistent. The missing facial parts (eyes and tounge and lips) could have been caused by animals after an event so probably shouldn't focus on that. The rest had compression injuries to the chest consistent with crushing (like they ran into a tree?) Seems kind of weird to me that they have foot tracks but they don't specify if the victims were running or walking. Also if outside people were involved they easily could have covered their tracks.

I think people had to be involved in this.

I think a group of locals scared them out of the tent - tortured a few of them by having a really fat guy sit on their chest for long periods of time - and the rest of them died to exposure. Why do some people have 1 sock or 1 shoe on? Because psycho people do psycho things sometimes.

Running into a tree wouldn't have caused the injuries that were suffered. Nor could a simple fist fight with another human, as both would have had external injuries to the soft tissues which were totally absent from the bodies. None of them had any external trauma related to death.

**Azreal13**

LordofHats wrote:
I think I saw some found footage horror film about this once. Turns out it was teleporting monsters that screamed a lot, and movies never lie!

No,

Spoiler:

It was a Yeti, I've seen the photographs on a Discovery channel doco, and they never lie!

**oldravenman3025**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:

The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.

And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.

The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.

Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.

As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.

True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.

As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.

There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.

The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.

Indeed. And adding to the strangeness is that the Mansi had all sorts of stories of caves sealed by concrete, the occasional encounters with Soviet troops out of the blue, and what sounded like a train running underground in the area.

Ouze wrote:The only elements of the story that do make sense are them undressing, since it's now pretty well known people freezing to death perceive they are burning up, the tanned skin (since the bodies were exposed for a while), and the missing tongue\etc which were likely scavengers.

What was weird about the condition of the bodies was the reaction to them by the Soviet military helicopter crews, who transported the remains. According to the accounts of some members of the search and recovery effort, upon seeing the condition of the remains, the aircrews refused to allow them on board unless further "packaging" was requisitioned. And Korotayev's account that at the Ivdel prison morgue, the staff and investigators were instructed to bathe in tubs of rubbing alcohol if they were in close proximity to the Dyatlov party remains. There were members of a government commission that arrived from Sverdlovsk and Moscow, who “seemed aware of some risks associated with being in the vicinity of the corpses" according to Korotayev, and were having a binge in the nearby village of Pershino. Instead of the usual Russian staples of alcoholic beverages and spirits, they drank a considerable amount of red wine. In the 1950's, it was thought in the Soviet Union that rubbing alcohol would wash away radioactive contamination, and red wine got rid of isotopes in the body. Soviet naval crews serving on nuclear powered November-class subs were given a cup of alcohol and swab once a week to rub themselves down with, and were told to drink red wine when on leave.

Korotayev also mentioned that one of the investigators named Tempalov was given a free pass to a resort to "recover", and they were warned that they would become impotent. The thing is that the corpses, except for the few individual items of clothing belonging to three members of the group, and Kolevatov’s heart, were free of radioactivity.

**Iron_Captain**

Matthew wrote:
It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure

The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.

**Iron_Captain**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:

The thing is that the members of the party that were mostly undressed didn't do so after fleeing the camp site. They fled in a half-dressed state, in a hurry. So, paradoxical undressing is out. There was some evidence that, in the make-shift emergency shelter in the forest where the last members were found, that clothing had been stripped from the deceased for added protection from the elements by the survivors, as they died off.

And whatever caused the injuries, was pretty substantial. And some cases, odd. When Boris Vozrozhdyonny was asked by chief investigator Lev Ivanov what could have cause their injuries, Vozrozhydyonny's response was "a blast or hit by a car". And during the autopsy, Vozrozhdyonny found that the skull of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle was crumpled, and there was no sign of external injury. Of the shelter group in the forest, only Kolevatov clearly died of hypothermia.

The theory of classified tests holds some weight. "Fireballs" were spotted in the valley Otorten by another sports tourist party, led by Anatoli Shumkov, descending Mount Otorten on the evening of February 2. And the Mansi showed investigator Vladimir Kototayev drawings of fireballs and elongated objects (like missiles). But Lev Ivanov omitted these from the investigation's official reports, but still reported the information personally to his boss in Moscow, Deputy General Prosecutor Urako. There was also a report of "fireball" and "booming sounds" by military personnel involved in the search while camping in the area at night.

Based on the actions of the higher ups during the investigation (up all the way to Khrushchev himself, who was supposedly following the investigation), the fact that Ivanov was ordered to fudge the investigation, and the sudden termination of the case, it's possible that somebody had something to hide if it wasn't just good old fashioned incompetence involved.

As for secrets, in the United States, despite the fifty year rule, there is still crap dating back to World War Two that is still classified to this very day. And the fact that parts of the recently released JFK assassination files are still under wraps due to CIA pressure on the White House, demonstrates that secrets can be kept for a long time. It's entirely possible that the Russian Federation wants to keep aspects of the case under wraps, for whatever reason. Many of the documents that were stored in the KGB archives relating to State Security's information of the case and Ivanov's investigation were either lost or censored to the point of being useless by current researchers of the mystery.

True, explosives would explain internal but not visible external trauma if caught in the blast wave. And I understand they can keep things secret for a long time if need be. But 60 year old missile tests or parachute mine tests as one theory has it doesn't seem of vital importance to keep secret. It might of course. But then the question remains, why wouldn't there be many more infinitely better suitable test locations infrastructure and test condition wise. The really remote location counts against experiment to me because of the difficulties it would involve versus the (almost) non-existent benefits.

As well as why they would keep testing with rescue personnel around if it was meant to be top secret for over 60+ years by now. In regards to censorship, it could have been overzealous or crossed out other sensitive aspects involving R&D in other locations. Its hard to say. But nothing really connects the dots perfectly with regards to theory.
You make a valid point. They only way I could see "mundane" tests being covered up for that long would be by sheer bureaucratic inertia, misplaced/lost records, or incompetence. Even fears of fat lawsuits by the families in the post-Soviet era was no reason to do so.

There is also a possibility that there were no actual testing going on at the time of the incident. There was a radiogram sent to the effort's headquarters mentioning the possibility of test, referencing a meteorological rocket launch on February 1st (as seen from Ivdel). Vladimir Korotayev related years later that he spoke with people who were close to the U.S.S.R.'s lead rocket engineer, Sergei Korolev, and who also worked in the offices of the famed Russian academic Boris Rauschenbach. What he was told seemed to imply that there was testing going on in the area of Uralmash around that time period. But later researchers have found no records of any launches, from any of the major Soviet launch sites (some of which are still operating today), on February 1st and 2nd, 1959.

The overall theories just don't line up in general. Military experiment or other secret type of experiment would be an ok explanation, yet the remoteness comes up. Beyond that, if the group was close enough to get killed I would assume observers of said test would have also seen their deaths/found their bodies. Because there was no visual disturbance of the landscape they either cleaned up a possible explosion site or there wasn't any. But if they cleaned up the explosion site, why not make the bodies disappear? If anything that might point to some sort of weird accident concerning some experiment, but then again the 60 years of secrecy comes in plus the fact that nothing was found at the site. The cover-up of a possible experiment just doesn't gel well with leaving the bodies behind. Just very strange.

And why would they do an experiment there? The Soviet army already had plenty of designated closed areas where they could conduct experiments. Places that they could actually monitor. It is no use doing an experiment in such a remote location, you will never even be able to properly study its effects.

Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.

**oldravenman3025**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.

No offense taken.

I knew that Uralmash wasn't anywhere close. But there have been claims that it was the site of classified missile construction between 1955 and 1963, although my own reading doesn't make much mention of Cold War missile or rocket production. Only that missiles and rockets made there were tested in the Sverdlovsk Oblast in the late 1950's (hence the Ivdel sighting on 2/1/59). The only major military production of serious note in the Uralmash plant was tanks and SPGs in World War II. I may be wrong.

The main blow against the military theory is the lack of support infrastructure in the area for routine missile testing (other than Mansi campfire stories; as you pointed out it's an extremely remote location to be doing such tests). Some missile wreckage has allegedly turned up in the years since then, but those could have easily been from some far off tests targeting a remote area (where recovery wasn't part of the test, or failed tests). There hasn't been any official military installations in the area until the Soviet Airforce built a radar installation on Mount Chistop in the late 1970's (shut down in 1985). Parachute mines are recorded as being tested in the area around the same period, but there is no evidence to suggest (beyond the circumstantial) that these tests had anything to do with the deaths.

And you are absolutely right. There is a lot of tall tales and BS generated around this case. My sources are numerous, since I've been fascinated by this mystery for years. Articles, books, websites. Most of them Russian and some of the sensational, including information pertaining to the Dyatlov Foundation and it's goals. My favorite (despite the spy thriller conspiracies) is The Price of State Secrets Is Nine Lives by Anatoly Gushchin. And despite it's fictional narrative, Anna Matveyeva's The Mystery of Dyatlov Pass offer the best compilation of factual and historical information on the incident found to date.

I just love a good, creepy mystery. There are plenty of places in Russia and the Ukraine that offer just that.

**Frazzled**

Sounds like Nazi zombies to me.

**sebster**

It's Russia. I consider it more of an inexplicable mystery when some actually manage to survive a night in that country.

**Freakazoitt**

Voss wrote:
People in the mountains in winter panicked and died? Shocking mystery.

They were pro survivalists, all expirienced and well prepeared.

**BigWaaagh**

It was Jack Torrance.

"Here's Johnny!"

**AllSeeingSkink**

Disciple of Fate wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Necros wrote:
Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?

If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.

I'm going with aliens.

Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.

Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.

Edit: the phenomenon that could produce infrasound in this case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_vortex_street
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.

Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.

Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.

Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.

Fluid dynamics lesson for the day...
The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.

So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.

**Dropbear Victim**

They were most probably killed by a bear. And the bear was a warlock. It's the only thing that makes sense.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Dropbear Victim wrote:
They were most probably killed by a bear. And the bear was a warlock. It's the only thing that makes sense.

How dare you accuse Zummi Gummi of such treachery!

**jhe90**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Necros wrote:
Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?

If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.

I'm going with aliens.

Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.

Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.

Edit: the phenomenon that could produce infrasound in this case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_vortex_street
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.

Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.

Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.

Fluid dynamics lesson for the day...
The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.

So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.

We keep coming back to sound but what about other factors?

Gases can cause issues. Some are toxic and others can starve brain of oxygen, or cause problems.

Maybe they drew water from a source that they could not tell was contaminated by some natural chemical or flora, mushrooms etc up river.?

Food seems less likely, own supplies and experiences.

Water however they would have to replenish every so often and likely all draw from the same source.

Infra sound etc is a idea but others are out there.

**Overread**

Dropbear Victim wrote:
They were most probably killed by a bear. And the bear was a warlock. It's the only thing that makes sense.

You mean a bearlock!

**AllSeeingSkink**

jhe90 wrote:
We keep coming back to sound but what about other factors?

Gases can cause issues. Some are toxic and others can starve brain of oxygen, or cause problems.

Maybe they drew water from a source that they could not tell was contaminated by some natural chemical or flora, mushrooms etc up river.?

Food seems less likely, own supplies and experiences.

Water however they would have to replenish every so often and likely all draw from the same source.

Infra sound etc is a idea but others are out there.

Yeah definitely. It could even still be infrasound, it's just unlikely to be infrasound caused by Karman shedding off the mountain like wikipedia claims because, from my understanding, the frequency would be well off. It's like someone proposed the idea but then never followed through to do the back of the hand calculations on it

**KTG17**

I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.

I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.

I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.

Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.

And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.

**Iron_Captain**

oldravenman3025 wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, oldravenman, Uralmash is in Yekaterinburg, which is very very far from the Dyatlov Pass. Also, I mean no disrespect, but a lot of what you are saying sounds very unlikely. Do you have any sources for it? It sounds like a lot of that has just been made up to make the story more interesting/mysterious. There has been a lot of mythmaking around this incident.

No offense taken.

I knew that Uralmash wasn't anywhere close. But there have been claims that it was the site of classified missile construction between 1955 and 1963, although my own reading doesn't make much mention of Cold War missile or rocket production. Only that missiles and rockets made there were tested in the Sverdlovsk Oblast in the late 1950's (hence the Ivdel sighting on 2/1/59). The only major military production of serious note in the Uralmash plant was tanks and SPGs in World War II. I may be wrong.

The main blow against the military theory is the lack of support infrastructure in the area for routine missile testing (other than Mansi campfire stories; as you pointed out it's an extremely remote location to be doing such tests). Some missile wreckage has allegedly turned up in the years since then, but those could have easily been from some far off tests targeting a remote area (where recovery wasn't part of the test, or failed tests). There hasn't been any official military installations in the area until the Soviet Airforce built a radar installation on Mount Chistop in the late 1970's (shut down in 1985). Parachute mines are recorded as being tested in the area around the same period, but there is no evidence to suggest (beyond the circumstantial) that these tests had anything to do with the deaths.

And you are absolutely right. There is a lot of tall tales and BS generated around this case. My sources are numerous, since I've been fascinated by this mystery for years. Articles, books, websites. Most of them Russian and some of the sensational, including information pertaining to the Dyatlov Foundation and it's goals. My favorite (despite the spy thriller conspiracies) is The Price of State Secrets Is Nine Lives by Anatoly Gushchin. And despite it's fictional narrative, Anna Matveyeva's The Mystery of Dyatlov Pass offer the best compilation of factual and historical information on the incident found to date.

I just love a good, creepy mystery. There are plenty of places in Russia and the Ukraine that offer just that.

I agree. Even though I am sure all of these mysteries have a perfectly mundane explanation, the stories are still highly interesting. Siberia does have a lot of mysteries going on.

**Xenomancers**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Matthew wrote:
It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure

The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.

Yeah - I agree with you. Deep woods people know how to track and cover their tracks. Remains the best explanation.

**Disciple of Fate**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Necros wrote:
Sound induced, like they hear something, cut a hole in their tent and make a run for it? That doesn't sound right.. no pun intended. What kind of sound would make you do that?

If there were no extra tracks, it probably wasn't a yeti, because they have big feets.

I'm going with aliens.

Sound induced in this case doesn't mean they heard a sound. Its to do with wind vortex around hills or trees producing a type of sound effect that affects the mental faculties of people.

Might be a combination of the sound theory making them think there was an imminent avalanche, then the rest of that theory might kick in. Even being experienced they might not have known for sure there wasn't any chance of an avalanche or it was induced panic by the sound theory. The cold and darkness might have done the rest.

Edit: the phenomenon that could produce infrasound in this case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_vortex_street
My understanding is that infrasound that induces panic in humans is around the 17 to 19Hz mark, the theory was that it could have come from Karman vortex shedding off the mountain, but Karman vortex shedding off an object that large is a much lower frequency than 17Hz.

Not saying it couldn't have been infrasound, but Karman shedding off the mountain itself sounds like it would be the wrong frequency.

Granted, this is just what I know from the infrasound theory in the Dyatlov case, in which they bring up the Karman vortex. Both infrasound effects on humans and the Karman vortex are far outside my relevant fields of expertise.
Can't say I know a lot about infrasound, but von Karman shedding I know a bit about.

Fluid dynamics lesson for the day...
The von Karman shedding in most practical aerodynamic systems occurs at a Strouhal number (non-dimensional frequency) of St ~ 0.2, that means the shedding frequency is 0.2*airspeed/D, where D is the characteristic length... usually close to the diameter or width of the object. So for a 20 meter per second wind, a 10m wide object will have a frequency of 0.2*20/10 ~ 0.4 Hz.

So to achieve the 17-19Hz range where infrasound is supposed to terrorise humans, you'd need a very small object in a very high speed wind, the flow around a mountain won't do it.

The more you know, already learning from this thread, good stuff

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Matthew wrote:
It's a nice thing to theorize about - I personally think a storm combined with fog made them panic, thinking an avalanche was coming. They ran out of their tents and got disoriented and froze to death. The radiation though? Not sure

The radiation on some of the clothing can also be easily explained. It comes from the lamps that they used. Gas lamps of the time often contained a mesh treated with thorium dioxide to create a bright light. That is why the radiation was only on a few pieces of clothing.
I think most researchers who have looked into the matter agree on the ultrasound theory nowadays. It explains why they panicked and left the tent despite there being no detectable threats in the area whatsoever. The injuries they suffered were most likely caused by falling and post-mortem scavenging by animals. The only other explanation I have heard that makes somewhat sense is that they were attacked for some reason by Mansi or other people who covered their tracks afterwards. People that would have been out there in that area, be they Mansi or Russian, would most likely have been skilled hunters who would have known how to do that. Beyond that most explanations tend to go into conspiracy theory and alien territory really quickly.
It is still plenty of mysterious though.

Yeah - I agree with you. Deep woods people know how to track and cover their tracks. Remains the best explanation.

Again though, no external trauma indicates they weren't involved in violence/a fight, ruling out other people.

**Xenomancers**

I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?

**Disciple of Fate**

Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?

How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.

**jhe90**

KTG17 wrote:
I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.

I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.

I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.

Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.

And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.

Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.

Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.

**Disciple of Fate**

jhe90 wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.

I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.

I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.

Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.

And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.

Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.

Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.

Problem being that nothing indicates a bear attack. No bear tracks and the injuries of some victims don't correspond.

**Xenomancers**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?

How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.

I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.

I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jhe90 wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
I am not sure about the infrasound, mostly because I don't know anything about it nor the impact it would have on all of the hikers. What is obvious to me though is that they panicked. They went from turning in for the night (why I assume they were mostly undressed), to being terrified quickly enough to cut a hole in the side of the tent and flee en mass, as opposed to getting dressed first and exiting the tent through the opening.

I am not sure if they were armed, but I might suspect wildlife to some degree, like a bear or something. I can see if it were trying to get into the front opening and the hikers cut the tent to escape out the back. But from what I have read there is no evidence of tracks around it. But who knows, maybe they were snowed over.

I had my car buried in 30min in Buffalo NY while visiting a friends house. It wasn't snowing when I walked in the house, nor when I walked out. However, in that time enough snow dumped that i had to dig my car out.

Maybe some of the injuries could have been early on before they got to the woods.

And SOMETHING kept them from rushing back to the tent. They sat and tried to build a fire, which is surprising to me. Something back at the tent scared the hell out of them. I assume they felt whatever it was was still there.

Food would have maybe drawn a bear to them.

Maybe if they where cooking some meat product?
That would certainly attract a hungry bear.

Im not an expert here but I think that a outdoors survivor type would know that bears are actually scared of people. They especially don't like fire. You could probably scare a bear off if you could make a torch of some kind - or if you just walked up and started yelling at it. I've been told in a situation involving a bear you shouldn't run away - you should stand up as tall as you can and spread your armys out and scream bloody murder.

**Disciple of Fate**

Xenomancers wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think no external injury means other people wernt involved. Imagine you are in sub 0 weather in snow without shoes. How much resistance do you think you'd put up if a guy had a gun on you?

How would you connect being held at gunpoint until death by freezing with evidence some tried to build a camp fire or the injuries some did suffer? They let some freeze to death for giggles, threw some down a ravine and then left the others alive to build a fire. Why? What could the possible motivation be for those actions in the first place let alone the three different varieties.

I think some of the group escapes and a few got captured. The ones that were captured were tortured in some not obvious way that involved crushing injuries at the tent site itself. The ones that escaped hovered around for a little but were unable to attempt a rescue -a few tried to make a fire to survive but were unable in the conditions without the right tools.

I think the key here is that something was keeping them from the tent. An animal wouldn't linger that long. A poisonous gas wouldn't scare me as much as freezing to death - I'd hold my breath run and get my survival gear. Pretty obvious that an avalanche didn't happen after a few minutes out of the tent. Like...what else could it be? Something was keeping them from getting back to the tent. Had to be a human.

But this is starting to reach for it. If these attackers had firearms how did some escape in the first place? On a flat snow plain how do you outrun a gun? Plus the ones with the crushing injuries were found in a ravine, so unless they were taken to be dumped there the torture angle seems out. Again no visible external trauma like you would expect from torture, as well as the fact that those with the injuries were the most well dressed. So either they were surprised and had time to get dressed to run away or their attackers let them get dressed? If they really wanted to kill the group why not just pursue? And if they had to cut open the tent to escape (indicating the front exit was out of the question) how would they have been able to evade people with guns that were already close enough to block the front door so to speak.

Again, why not make sure they all died and leave no witnesses? Why not hide all the bodies? The attacker theory makes no sense, it has way too many holes. There doesn't seem to be any motive or possible attacker as the local tribe had no such violent history.