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Panicky instructions by an ill-trained officer who shouldn't have been in the position in the first place.

Indeed.

This is infuriating. What possible reason did the judge not allow this video to the jury?

Just here to mention. The officer giving the orders was a different officer then the one wearing the body cam and firing the shots.

Murder. Completely unjustifiable murder.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Panicky instructions by an ill-trained officer who shouldn't have been in the position in the first place.

In other words it's whoever put these officers on the job armed with ARs who should be on trial.

I've never had to point a live weapon at anyone, and I would probably be nervous too, but the first thing drilled into me during military police training was that any orders you give (a suspect or other person) should be very simple and very clear. "Flat on your face hands out" would have been about as complicated as needed, giving the officers here time to secure the area and suspects so they could be less nervous.

gives garbage instructions, that would likely result in anyone falling over, then proceeded to shoot someone because of them falling over. how the hell was he acquitted

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

This is some grade A kill or be killed Judge Dredd fantasy right here. Even in the US the amount of police officers killed is tiny on the number employed, even less for other Western nations. Terrorists aren't exactly roaming the streets, they are singular events taken way out of proportion. The absolute vast majority of police officers will likely never encounter one in their lifetime. Those kinds of assumptions are crazy.

Pretty much this.

A huge percentage of police officers never fired their guns in their entire career, even in the USA.

The main problem about this matter is that the US law allows cops to murder people just because they felt threatened, even if there wasn't a real threat. Like a cellphone mistaken for a gun, or a woman in pjjama that approached a police car and slapped the rear window to seek the cops' attention. In a civilized country those cops should have been convicted of murder.

Like the guy in the video, was he unarmed? It should be irrelevant what the cop felt, shooting an unarmed man face down on the ground is an execution. How many cops would be killed for not being so jumpy? Maybe a few, if not zero. But hundreds of lives saved, every year, at the same time.

The problem lies with a typical american idea of a world in where everyone and everything are a threat against them or their families. It's not far west anymore.

Wow... In Russia we like to joke about police just being another criminal gang trying to rob you.
It seems in America the police are just another gang of murderers.
Of course, I am certain that the vast majority of policemen (both in Russia and in the US) are decent people and just do a good job. But the cases of "rotten apples" are too numerous I feel. And as they say, a few rotten apples can spoil the whole bunch.
The US police definitely has a massive problem with using violence that it needs to solve.

Isn't the way that a Jury works that if they can't come to a unanimous verdict (or a majority?) that a Not-Guilty verdict is reached?

The accused lawyers are there to put enough doubt in the Jury that some of them vote Not-Guilty from being inconclusive. "There's a chance that they're not guilty, so I have to go with it".

There's clean and cut cases where a Jury member's voted against the majority over stupid crap "oh, my son wouldn't do this, and he's the same age as the murderer, so he couldn't have either". Stuff like that I'd imagine leads to situations like these.

Better yet when Jurors don't disclose a personal bias, or hell knowing the people involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wow... In Russia we like to joke about police just being another criminal gang trying to rob you.
It seems in America the police are just another gang of murderers.
Of course, I am certain that the vast majority of policemen (both in Russia and in the US) are decent people and just do a good job. But the cases of "rotten apples" are too numerous I feel. And as they say, a few rotten apples can spoil the whole bunch.
The US police definitely has a massive problem with using violence that it needs to solve.

An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

Reaching for your your waist is a sure way to get shot. Especially if the officer clearly states that if you do it yet again they WILL shoot you. I don't agree with the situation's existence, but cannot argue that it doesn't exist.

I don't see how the instructions were so unclear. The woman with him did exactly as instructed. A single officer that was only yelling right at the end when he reached for his waistband yet again. I surely wouldn't give someone the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift?

I guess Finland stacks up to some really small US States on a population level. (Actually, a quick web search says with our 5.5 million population we're bigger than more than half the US States) Yet our police seldom even draw a gun, much less fire it. If you did the same search for all European countries you'd probably reach the same conclusion anyway - less police violence overall.

One really big difference is that it's usually somewhat difficult to get a handgun in Europe. You need a reason other than self-defense, usually some sort of competition shooting or finishing off trapped animals if you hunt vermin with traps. Only drug dealers and bike gangs usually bother to get illegal handguns and that's to use against each other, not the general public or the police. Result being our police are generally not worried that you'd have a hidden gun, though they will be on the lookout for knives.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Isn't the way that a Jury works that if they can't come to a unanimous verdict (or a majority?) that a Not-Guilty verdict is reached?

The accused lawyers are there to put enough doubt in the Jury that some of them vote Not-Guilty from being inconclusive. "There's a chance that they're not guilty, so I have to go with it".

There's clean and cut cases where a Jury member's voted against the majority over stupid crap "oh, my son wouldn't do this, and he's the same age as the murderer, so he couldn't have either". Stuff like that I'd imagine leads to situations like these.

Better yet when Jurors don't disclose a personal bias, or hell knowing the people involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Wow... In Russia we like to joke about police just being another criminal gang trying to rob you.
It seems in America the police are just another gang of murderers.
Of course, I am certain that the vast majority of policemen (both in Russia and in the US) are decent people and just do a good job. But the cases of "rotten apples" are too numerous I feel. And as they say, a few rotten apples can spoil the whole bunch.
The US police definitely has a massive problem with using violence that it needs to solve.

An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

Yes. America is small next to Russia, and its republics are probably even more independent than the US states. Yet people still tend to treat it as a single whole. Even in a country as tiny as the Netherlands, there is large differences between regions. I am sure not all US states have the same problems, but this police violence problem definitely seems to occur everywhere, although there may be regional differences in frequency. And really, it does not matter whether a country is great or small, because you can compare things proportionally. How many unarmed people in the US get shot by police as a percentage of the total US population compared to how many unarmed people in the Netherlands get shot by police as a percentage of the total Dutch population for example. The numbers on police violence in the US are really high both in absolute and in proportional terms. US police officers shoot more people in a day than the police of most other developed countries do in a decade. That is just insane. And I just don't get how a supposedly developed nation (and not just any developed nation, but the US, one of the first and probably the greatest 'developed' nation) can't fix this issue. It is not like it is something new.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift?

I guess Finland stacks up to some really small US States on a population level. (Actually, a quick web search says with our 5.5 million population we're bigger than more than half the US States) Yet our police seldom even draw a gun, much less fire it. If you did the same search for all European countries you'd probably reach the same conclusion anyway - less police violence overall.

One really big difference is that it's usually somewhat difficult to get a handgun in Europe. You need a reason other than self-defense, usually some sort of competition shooting or finishing off trapped animals if you hunt vermin with traps. Only drug dealers and bike gangs usually bother to get illegal handguns and that's to use against each other, not the general public or the police. Result being our police are generally not worried that you'd have a hidden gun, though they will be on the lookout for knives.

Yeah, the Finnish police uses less bullets in a year than the US police do in a single shooting... There are more police shootings in most US cities in a month than there are in all of Finland in a year.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Reaching for your your waist is a sure way to get shot. Especially if the officer clearly states that if you do it yet again they WILL shoot you. I don't agree with the situation's existence, but cannot argue that it doesn't exist.

I don't see how the instructions were so unclear. The woman with him did exactly as instructed. A single officer that was only yelling right at the end when he reached for his waistband yet again. I surely wouldn't give someone the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

I agree that we should kill drunk people while screaming at them after barging into their home armed.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Reaching for your your waist is a sure way to get shot. Especially if the officer clearly states that if you do it yet again they WILL shoot you. I don't agree with the situation's existence, but cannot argue that it doesn't exist.

I don't see how the instructions were so unclear. The woman with him did exactly as instructed. A single officer that was only yelling right at the end when he reached for his waistband yet again. I surely wouldn't give someone the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

Okay, so I break in to your house with a weapon pointed at you and start yelling instructions at you. You are drunk and now somebody has entered your home with a weapon pointed at you. They are yelling at you and your adrenaline starts to pump very quickly because of everything going on around you.

Catching on? It doesn't matter how many people are yelling at you, what matters is that it is unreasonable to expect somebody under the influence to be able to handle themselves in a situation like this. Hell, sober people would have a hard time dealing with it.

That's not what I saw in the video. The only time they yelled is after the instructions aren't followed or they're yelling over the people talking back to them.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Isn't the way that a Jury works that if they can't come to a unanimous verdict (or a majority?) that a Not-Guilty verdict is reached?

Afaik a jury that can't reach a verdict will lead to a mistrial, not a not guilty verdict.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Reaching for your your waist is a sure way to get shot. Especially if the officer clearly states that if you do it yet again they WILL shoot you. I don't agree with the situation's existence, but cannot argue that it doesn't exist.

I don't see how the instructions were so unclear. The woman with him did exactly as instructed. A single officer that was only yelling right at the end when he reached for his waistband yet again. I surely wouldn't give someone the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

I agree that we should kill drunk people while screaming at them after barging into their home armed.

Lol try harder, Hyperboleman!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 soundwave591 wrote:
gives garbage instructions, that would likely result in anyone falling over, then proceeded to shoot someone because of them falling over. how the hell was he acquitted

because the video and the rifle with the "you're fethed" engraving on it we're not admitted by the judge.

It's not the jury. It's the judge and lawyers.

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.

Latin America? With the favelas and the army going in once in a while to clear it out? Why would you not want the US compared to Western countries? Even if we say half or 3/4ths off for the drug cartel/gang problems its still a lot higher. Also the Denmark 71 number must be a mistake

The number for the Netherlands is likely a reflection of our organized crime problem.

 avantgarde wrote:
Just here to mention. The officer giving the orders was a different officer then the one wearing the body cam and firing the shots.

Hang on was it?

on record it was?

it sounded like it was him him self

otherwise i dont agree with him getting fired. i would of agreed with him being convicted of second degree manslaughter if he caused the situation by him self, but the orders that caused shaver to get confused and make that unfortunate action that looks like he is reaching for something wasnt on him. he was only covering the other officers like he is supposed to be..

though this is assuming that he wasnt the one yelling out orders. (though it sounded like it was)

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
That's not what I saw in the video. The only time they yelled is after the instructions aren't followed or they're yelling over the people talking back to them.

Then you missed the beginning of the video where they yelled at them from outside of them room then yelled at them when the woman exited the room like asked. They they tell him to "obey" which is bs and to "shut up" which is also bs.

Then there was yelling with the man clearly had issues following instructions due to his emotional state. This was an execution, straight up. There is no way around it. The instructions were also not clear at all. When somebody says crawl, you assume they mean hands and knees. Because that is what crawling is.

These cops have no clue what they are doing and do not in any way deserve to be on the force. The one shouting commands should be relieved of duty immediately because he cannot conduct himself in a civil manner in high stress situations.

Maybe watch the video again so you can catch the stuff you missed.

Edit: Anybody notice that they call for the occupants of room 502 to leave the room, then attempt to go in to room 500 with the keycard?

Skilled policing right there.

Remember the Justine Damond shooting in Minnesota? It's been about 140 days now and the officers have yet to be interviewed by investigators.

Police are beyond corrupt.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.

Latin America? With the favelas and the army going in once in a while to clear it out? Why would you not want the US compared to Western countries? Even if we say half or 3/4ths off for the drug cartel/gang problems its still a lot higher. Also the Denmark 71 number must be a mistake

The number for the Netherlands is likely a reflection of our organized crime problem.

Why because its not accurate. The US is part of the Americas, not Europe. If we were part of Europe, it would be the US of E.
We have a separate culture, history, and destiny.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.

Latin America? With the favelas and the army going in once in a while to clear it out? Why would you not want the US compared to Western countries? Even if we say half or 3/4ths off for the drug cartel/gang problems its still a lot higher. Also the Denmark 71 number must be a mistake

The number for the Netherlands is likely a reflection of our organized crime problem.

Why because its not accurate. The US is part of the Americas, not Europe. If we were part of Europe, it would be the US of E.
We have a separate culture, history, and destiny.

Yeah and plenty of European countries have the same seperate history, culture and destiny. But overall the West as in Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand and European states are roughly similar for a comparison to make sense. South America is as or even more different from the US than Europe. But socioeconomically and politically speaking the US fits better in a Western comparison. That's what I meant. The Americas is just a geographic area, the differences between say Haiti and the US are incredibly vast compared to a random other Western state and the US.

Plus in the future the USA might get to be friends with the USE regardless

LordofHats wrote:There was a case last year in one of the New England states where a judge ruled that running from police could not be considered evidence of guilt, grounded on the reasoning that people now can have a rational fear of any police interaction. The sad part is that its kind of true.

Frazzled wrote:

Spoiler:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.

Latin America? With the favelas and the army going in once in a while to clear it out? Why would you not want the US compared to Western countries? Even if we say half or 3/4ths off for the drug cartel/gang problems its still a lot higher. Also the Denmark 71 number must be a mistake

The number for the Netherlands is likely a reflection of our organized crime problem.

Why because its not accurate. The US is part of the Americas, not Europe. If we were part of Europe, it would be the US of E.
We have a separate culture, history, and destiny.

The standard of living, economic, and social situation in the USA is on average more comparable to Europe than to most other American countries. In America Canada is probably the only one that's actually comparable in those regards. This argument only works if your idea of destiny for the USA is a combination of helplessness and contentment. "Why improve? Most countries to the south have it worse." and that sounds just sad and not at all like "the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

 Frazzled wrote:


Why because its not accurate. The US is part of the Americas, not Europe. If we were part of Europe, it would be the US of E.
We have a separate culture, history, and destiny.

The US has a history? It is not even 300 years old yet! You can't call that a history!

But in all seriousness, virtually all American culture is European culture. There isn't really such a thing as American culture in the same way there is European culture (or rather, there is, but it has been mostly wiped out and only remnants of it exist nowadays). Or don't you remember that whole episode where your ancestors came from Europe and wiped out virtually all Americans? Americans are culturally much closer to the English than the English are to the Ukrainians. And English and Ukrainians are both Europeans, so that makes you culturally European as well Fraz . Same thing goes for Latin America with Spain and Portugal.

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

United States 342
South Africa 634
Germany 12
Denmark 71
France 6
England and Wales 5
Netherlands 18
Australia 4
Austria 12
Finland 0
Norway 0

You should compare those rates to Latin America not Europe. We are not in Europe.

You're also not in Latin America

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Isn't the way that a Jury works that if they can't come to a unanimous verdict (or a majority?) that a Not-Guilty verdict is reached?

If the Jury is not unanimous, the Judge either tells them to go back and keep trying, or accept that the jury is dead locked and declare a mistrial (no verdict is thus rendered).

 Desubot wrote:
In hindsight sure we know he didn't have a weapon but that's not how a situation like this works. it doesnt matter if a person is crying super emotional pissing his pants until he is secured you just dont know and cops dont have magic x ray vision to make sure he isnt hiding something in his butt crack.

personally yeah i believe one person should of gone up and just secured him.

but in the context of this situation and clearly the jury agrees its not seconded man slaughter.

The challenge with asking why one officer did not move forward to secure the suspect is that when the report was made to the Police there were three people in the room, and the Police were able to confront two people in the hallway. Sending an Officer to secure the suspect may not have been considered as it would have placed an Officer in a potential cross fire between his partner and a third suspect in the hotel room.

From the responding Officer's perspective they have a non-compliant suspect who may be armed, is not following instructions, and attempted to reach in his waistband. Add in the potential for a third suspect who may be armed and a hotel full of civilians and this was a tactically challenging scenario.

 avantgarde wrote:
Just here to mention. The officer giving the orders was a different officer then the one wearing the body cam and firing the shots.

Do you have a source for this? I don't want to offer an opinion on the comments until I confirm this.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
An issue with people describing America as having "problems" fails to be aware of the size of the country. If you treated the US as 50 different countries rather than a single one then would that opinion shift? Collect all the different crimes taking place over the whole of Europe (and the surrounding countries) and how do the total numbers look?

Of course, the numbers are high regardless.

The US numbers are exceptionally high even when considered by capita.

From wikipedia, the number of people killed by police firearms per 100 million people.

Can we please avoid turning this into a discussion on America's gun laws? Those threads are almost as much trouble as US politics threads