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Uthere wyrdmake had his soul literally torn out and fed to deamons, he certainly felt that

 Formosa wrote:
Uthere wyrdmake had his soul literally torn out and fed to deamons, he certainly felt that

Yeah and he was a psyker. Thats what people has been saying. Only powerfull souls are sentient in the warp. And those are psyker souls, or souls of Eldar. Normal humans don't have that power. The same happens with Tau, they have souls and warp presence, but it is so small they are nearly inmune to Warp influence both in life and death.

I have been looking for this piece of lore but I can't encounter it, i'll try again tomorrow. But I'll bet my left foot toe thats how it works.

The Emperor, or part of him, is almost certainly a warp entity on the level of the Chaos gods. His own psychic power combined with his singular existence in the warp, only barely tethered to the mortal plane by the last cells of his desiccated corpse, and the massive amounts of worship and sacrifice in his name, have given him enough of a presence in the warp to rival Chaos Undivided. Otherwise, Chaos would finally flood into the material realm and consume all of humanity.

However, I agree with Galas that most humans don't retain any kind of consciousness or personality after death, and what little psychic energy they possess is absorbed by the warp in some way or another. One certain exception would be the psychers whose souls are fed to the Emperor: their souls are consumed by him immediately.

 Luciferian wrote:
The Emperor, or part of him, is almost certainly a warp entity on the level of the Chaos gods. His own psychic power combined with his singular existence in the warp, only barely tethered to the mortal plane by the last cells of his desiccated corpse, and the massive amounts of worship and sacrifice in his name, have given him enough of a presence in the warp to rival Chaos Undivided. Otherwise, Chaos would finally flood into the material realm and consume all of humanity.

Thats not the Emperor. Thats the golden throne. Big Es psychic might empowers it, the golden throne broadcasts it out. It's why it shows like a beacon for people to navigate by in warp travel. No mortal can become a warp god. No mortal can rival a warp god. It's a machine with the most powerful psyker who was ever born to humanity strapped into it fed by thousands of psyker sacrifices that leads makes his broadcast into the warp so powerful. Without the machine it would just be a powerful psyker.

I'm not so sure. Pre-heresy, the Emperor did not need to be on the Golden Throne in order to emanate the Astronomican. It only became necessary for the Golden Throne to be manned at all once Magnus breached the psychic wards around Terra and ruptured the human-built portion of the webway. The Golden Throne keeps the Emperor's body alive, but there is a lot of lore that suggests he is indeed a massive presence in the warp which would simply become unmoored from the material realm if the Throne were to cease working.

 Luciferian wrote:
I'm not so sure. Pre-heresy, the Emperor did not need to be on the Golden Throne in order to emanate the Astronomican. It only became necessary for the Golden Throne to be manned at all once Magnus breached the psychic wards around Terra and ruptured the human-built portion of the webway. The Golden Throne keeps the Emperor's body alive, but there is a lot of lore that suggests he is indeed a massive presence in the warp which would simply become unmoored from the material realm if the Throne were to cease working.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Astronomican

The astronomican always required the emperor. But powering it himself was also weakening him and killing him and the farther away he was the more taxing it was. The golden throne is a life support, but it's not JUST a life support. It's a life support that links him directly into the astronomican. All the emp does is project his psychic might into the warp through the machine.

There is NO lore... anywhere... that suggests someone can be raised to warp-god-hood. Only that warp gods can be born from large concentrated emotional impacts in the galaxy. Again, a warp god COULD be born when the emperor dies from the vast faith in the emperor. Hell the fact the the emperor is projecting all his psychic might into the warp might even help the process along. That thing might think it is the emperor. But that thing will not actually be the emperor. it will be a conscious reflection of the vast faith in the emperor made manifest. Where the Big E hates faith this thing would demand it in draconian absolutes because thats how people see him as a god.

It's not true that there is no lore which suggests that the Emperor, specifically, can not ascend to godhood. Granted, a lot of it is from Realms of Chaos or the in-universe theories and beliefs of different factions of Inquisitors. Still, nothing has directly contradicted it. There is even in-universe debate about exactly what you just suggested - whether a warp god born from the worship of the Emperor would actually be the Emperor, or even if it is him in some form whether it would have any relation to his sense of human identity.

GW hasn't directly provided anything which says one way or the other what the truth is, but even some characters in the setting believe that the Emperor has reached some level of apotheosis since Horus mortally wounded him.

 Luciferian wrote:
It's not true that there is no lore which suggests that the Emperor, specifically, can not ascend to godhood. Granted, a lot of it is from Realms of Chaos or the in-universe theories and beliefs of different factions of Inquisitors. Still, nothing has directly contradicted it. There is even in-universe debate about exactly what you just suggested - whether a warp god born from the worship of the Emperor would actually be the Emperor, or even if it is him in some form whether it would have any relation to his sense of human identity.

GW hasn't directly provided anything which says one way or the other what the truth is, but even some characters in the setting believe that the Emperor has reached some level of apotheosis since Horus mortally wounded him.

Except we have all the factual cases of warp entities being warp entities and no cases of mortals becoming warp entities. The inquisitors guessing at gak is like saying "The Ordos Xenos thinks maybe the Tyranids are running from something" as evidence that the tyranids are running from something.

Except we know they are not. The Pharos Device got their attention and they set their sights on our galaxy.

Any Inquisitorial guess without evidence to support it is equal to any fan spank theory. It just people shouting theories in the wind.

Every warp entity in 40k has been born in the immaterium as a reflection of the thoughts and emotions of entities in the materium. There is no previous example to suggest the emperor would do this thing that no other entity has ever done. It's just a bunch of ass holes in the imperium guessing at gak they don't understand.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
It's not true that there is no lore which suggests that the Emperor, specifically, can not ascend to godhood. Granted, a lot of it is from Realms of Chaos or the in-universe theories and beliefs of different factions of Inquisitors. Still, nothing has directly contradicted it. There is even in-universe debate about exactly what you just suggested - whether a warp god born from the worship of the Emperor would actually be the Emperor, or even if it is him in some form whether it would have any relation to his sense of human identity.

GW hasn't directly provided anything which says one way or the other what the truth is, but even some characters in the setting believe that the Emperor has reached some level of apotheosis since Horus mortally wounded him.

Except we have all the factual cases of warp entities being warp entities and no cases of mortals becoming warp entities. The inquisitors guessing at gak is like saying "The Ordos Xenos thinks maybe the Tyranids are running from something" as evidence that the tyranids are running from something.

Except we know they are not. The Pharos Device got their attention and they set their sights on our galaxy.

Any Inquisitorial guess without evidence to support it is equal to any fan spank theory. It just people shouting theories in the wind.

Every warp entity in 40k has been born in the immaterium as a reflection of the thoughts and emotions of entities in the materium. There is no previous example to suggest the emperor would do this thing that no other entity has ever done. It's just a bunch of ass holes in the imperium guessing at gak they don't understand.

Umm we have MULTIPLE cases of mortals becoming warp entities. they're called Deamon Princes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
It's not true that there is no lore which suggests that the Emperor, specifically, can not ascend to godhood. Granted, a lot of it is from Realms of Chaos or the in-universe theories and beliefs of different factions of Inquisitors. Still, nothing has directly contradicted it. There is even in-universe debate about exactly what you just suggested - whether a warp god born from the worship of the Emperor would actually be the Emperor, or even if it is him in some form whether it would have any relation to his sense of human identity.

GW hasn't directly provided anything which says one way or the other what the truth is, but even some characters in the setting believe that the Emperor has reached some level of apotheosis since Horus mortally wounded him.

Except we have all the factual cases of warp entities being warp entities and no cases of mortals becoming warp entities. The inquisitors guessing at gak is like saying "The Ordos Xenos thinks maybe the Tyranids are running from something" as evidence that the tyranids are running from something.

Except we know they are not. The Pharos Device got their attention and they set their sights on our galaxy.

Any Inquisitorial guess without evidence to support it is equal to any fan spank theory. It just people shouting theories in the wind.

Every warp entity in 40k has been born in the immaterium as a reflection of the thoughts and emotions of entities in the materium. There is no previous example to suggest the emperor would do this thing that no other entity has ever done. It's just a bunch of ass holes in the imperium guessing at gak they don't understand.

Umm we have MULTIPLE cases of mortals becoming warp entities. they're called Deamon Princes.

Deamon princes are NOT warp entities. They are empowered mortals at best and possessed husks at worse. Empowered by one or more of the very top warp entities by the way. Got any examples of someone making themselves into a deamon prince?

 Lance845 wrote:

Deamon princes are NOT warp entities. They are empowered mortals at best and possessed husks at worse. Empowered by one or more of the very top warp entities by the way. Got any examples of someone making themselves into a deamon prince?

Empowered or not by other entities, they themselves are Warp Entities. They are Daemons with all the advantages and drawbacks that entails.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Deamon princes are NOT warp entities. They are empowered mortals at best and possessed husks at worse. Empowered by one or more of the very top warp entities by the way. Got any examples of someone making themselves into a deamon prince?

Empowered or not by other entities, they themselves are Warp Entities. They are Daemons with all the advantages and drawbacks that entails.

Or they are possessed by them. Like Deamon Engines. And Fulgrim. Fulgrim, very specifically is possessed and when he tried to not kill Ferrus Manus the deamon inside him took over and made him do it. How exactly do you think they became empowered?

Again, there are no examples of someone becoming a warp entity on their own. And those few who have been raised to deamon princehood were done so by other warp entities. The exact nature of which is questionable, with evidence pointing towards possession/infusion with warp entities to turn them into what they are now.

Give me an example of someone ascending to becoming a warp entity through sheer force of will? Psychic might? Other mortals wishing it were true? There is nothing in 40k lore that says it's possible for the emperor to be a man who makes himself a wap god.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, actual deamons have no physical form. Their bodys are manifestations of warp energy, that, while they seem real in real space, are not real. Inside of the warp these deamons are just conscious senses with no actual form or shape. It's only really when they manifest in real space that they take shape.

Deamon Princes and the Deamon Primarchs do in fact have very physical forms contrary to the rest of deamonhood. Their forms are immortal. Their forms can be remade from the stuff of chaos. But they HAVE forms.

 Lance845 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Deamon princes are NOT warp entities. They are empowered mortals at best and possessed husks at worse. Empowered by one or more of the very top warp entities by the way. Got any examples of someone making themselves into a deamon prince?

Empowered or not by other entities, they themselves are Warp Entities. They are Daemons with all the advantages and drawbacks that entails.

Or they are possessed by them. Like Deamon Engines. And Fulgrim. Fulgrim, very specifically is possessed and when he tried to not kill Ferrus Manus the deamon inside him took over and made him do it. How exactly do you think they became empowered?

Again, there are no examples of someone becoming a warp entity on their own. And those few who have been raised to deamon princehood were done so by other warp entities. The exact nature of which is questionable, with evidence pointing towards possession/infusion with warp entities to turn them into what they are now.

Give me an example of someone ascending to becoming a warp entity through sheer force of will? Psychic might? Other mortals wishing it were true? There is nothing in 40k lore that says it's possible for the emperor to be a man who makes himself a wap god.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, actual deamons have no physical form. Their bodys are manifestations of warp energy, that, while they seem real in real space, are not real. Inside of the warp these deamons are just conscious senses with no actual form or shape. It's only really when they manifest in real space that they take shape.

Deamon Princes and the Deamon Primarchs do in fact have very physical forms contrary to the rest of deamonhood. Their forms are immortal. Their forms can be remade from the stuff of chaos. But they HAVE forms.

Fulgrim assended himself, harnessed the warp energy himself and used the sacrifice to become a DP, in slaaneshs name,
Lorgar Assended himself as a DP of chaos Undivided
Peturabo did the same, though I really cant see how or why he would given his character in Angel Exterminatus.

Lorgar Assended Angron (in Khornes name), using the combined warp energy of millions of deaths and has angron as the focus, we have no proof Khorne had anything to do with it, other than his "mark" on Angrons soul.

Lorgar is no longer possessed and hasnt been for about 8 years, he cast out the deamon (the mirror Crak'd, Angel exterminatus)

So there are your examples.

In addition, any deamon can theoretically become a warp god, the ones that are tied to the gods themselves are just extensions of its will and power, but other deamons given sufficient time can become powerful enough.

 Formosa wrote:


Fulgrim assended himself, harnessed the warp energy himself and used the sacrifice to become a DP, in slaaneshs name,

And was possessed. He initiated the ritual, slaanesh answered.

Lorgar Assended himself as a DP of chaos Undivided

No. He was ascended by chaos undivided. He can perform a ritual but the deamons have to answer the call. And you even say below, he was possessed.

Peturabo did the same, though I really cant see how or why he would given his character in Angel Exterminatus.

Just like Lorgar it was chaos undivided who chose to empower him due to his sacrifice to them of the geneseeds. He didn't do anything on his own.

Lorgar Assended Angron (in Khornes name), using the combined warp energy of millions of deaths and has angron as the focus, we have no proof Khorne had anything to do with it, other than his "mark" on Angrons soul.

In a ritual that saw him possessed. And you have no evidence that Khorne didn't have everything to do with it. Since in every other example of deamon princedom it takes the gods to do it why would this time be different?

Lorgar is no longer possessed and hasnt been for about 8 years, he cast out the deamon (the mirror Crak'd, Angel exterminatus)

It's questionable whether a deamon prince CAN be no longer possessed. It's even questionable whether an actual deamon prince is even the original person or just a warp entity that thinks they are that person. I doubt the validity of this argument.

So there are your examples.

In addition, any deamon can theoretically become a warp god, the ones that are tied to the gods themselves are just extensions of its will and power, but other deamons given sufficient time can become powerful enough.

It's not a matter of time. Deamons do not become warp gods because of time. Again, they are reflections of emotion and thought from the materium. The more powerful the emotion the more powerful the reflection. Khorne isn't a warp god because of time. Khorne is a warp god because violence and destruction is rampant in the galaxy and has been forever.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Fulgrim assended himself, harnessed the warp energy himself and used the sacrifice to become a DP, in slaaneshs name,

And was possessed. He initiated the ritual, slaanesh answered.

Lorgar Assended himself as a DP of chaos Undivided

No. He was ascended by chaos undivided. He can perform a ritual but the deamons have to answer the call. And you even say below, he was possessed.

Peturabo did the same, though I really cant see how or why he would given his character in Angel Exterminatus.

Just like Lorgar it was chaos undivided who chose to empower him due to his sacrifice to them of the geneseeds. He didn't do anything on his own.

Lorgar Assended Angron (in Khornes name), using the combined warp energy of millions of deaths and has angron as the focus, we have no proof Khorne had anything to do with it, other than his "mark" on Angrons soul.

In a ritual that saw him possessed. And you have no evidence that Khorne didn't have everything to do with it. Since in every other example of deamon princedom it takes the gods to do it why would this time be different?

Lorgar is no longer possessed and hasnt been for about 8 years, he cast out the deamon (the mirror Crak'd, Angel exterminatus)

It's questionable whether a deamon prince CAN be no longer possessed. It's even questionable whether an actual deamon prince is even the original person or just a warp entity that thinks they are that person. I doubt the validity of this argument.

So there are your examples.

In addition, any deamon can theoretically become a warp god, the ones that are tied to the gods themselves are just extensions of its will and power, but other deamons given sufficient time can become powerful enough.

It's not a matter of time. Deamons do not become warp gods because of time. Again, they are reflections of emotion and thought from the materium. The more powerful the emotion the more powerful the reflection. Khorne isn't a warp god because of time. Khorne is a warp god because violence and destruction is rampant in the galaxy and has been forever.

Nope, angel exterminatus clearly shows fulgrim doing all the work, he was not possessed at the time, he also explicitly states the deamons was cast out in a mirror crack'd, he harnessed the power himself, made the sacrifice himself and then turned into a deamon prince, that's not slaanesh, that's fulgrim.

Chaos undivided has no God to accend you, so you have contradicted yourself here I'm afraid, so lorgar accended himself unless sufficient proof can be found that he didn't, lorgar wasn't possessed that was a typo, fulgrim WAS possessed but hasn't been for a very long time.

Peturabo accended himself useing the warp, thats it.

Lorgar used the ruinstorm to gain the power to channel it into angron, he then cast the spell to make the change, so all the work was done by lorgar, not khorne, do you have any evidence that khorne was involved ? No? Because we have 2 novels showing that primarchs given sufficient power can do it for themselves, the only thing that you can debate is IF the gods got involved after the rituals started, but that ain't the gods doing the work, it's the mortals, the gods are just claiming those souls.

Your statement about deamon princes no longer being possesssed is based on a typo, deamon princes are not possessed they are souls of mortals (and powerful deamons) that have been infused with enough warp energy to accend, possession is completely different.

And finally your last statement shows you do not know the subject matter enough to make said statement, the chaos gods are both sentient warp storms and vortexs of emotion, our minds interpret them as beings and they then become said beings, a small vortex can become larger, pulling in emotions and concepts, gaining in size, eventually if given enough time the vortex could rival the size of one of the gods, if this happens the gods will destroy this new "God" of whatever cenecept it is the embodiment of, taking its power, our minds interpret this as warfare within the warp, Deamons invading the garden of nurgle for example.

REF: all liber chaotica, chaos daemons codex/army book, thousand sons, crimson king, angel exterminatus, the betrayer.