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 Lance845 wrote:

Techpriestsupport wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Yeah, GW has learned if a book has no matched play content, or minimal matched play content, it won't get bought. CA is a perfect example: There's a lot to the book, but most of it might as well not exist because it's not matched play, and the part that is matched play (new missions) get ignored in may cases because ITC exists. This leaves what, maybe 20 pages for the faction updates/points? out of a 90+ page book?

Which is why a lot of people are complaining. They know that if the point updates were free, they wouldn't bother buying CA in the first place so they feel that they are being screwed over.

And quite rightly so. Some of us want to be DONE, at least for a while, pouring money into a company so utterly amoral it gives people who sell drugs to school kids on playgrounds someone to look down on. I would like to collect and finish an army and be able to play it for at least a year or so without GW trying to dunk its hand into my wallet again.. A couple hundred fat least or an army, 50 for a rules book.. 30-50 for a codex, some armies need more than one codex.

Then along comes CA and it's like "Gimme 'nuther 35! " NO, GOD DAMN YOU, NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!! "

Then don't buy it. It's not like all the point updates can't be found online for free before the books even come out. You can right click and save the images and adjust the point costs in your own books with a pen or make your own updated point file or use things like battlescribe which updates quickly.

Why the hell anyone pays for something they don't want is beyond me.

What would they have to hyperbolically complain about online then?

 Sherrypie wrote:
But yes, the missions are the thing. Try things like Roving Patrol: as both sides are split to 3 divisions that gradually come on the field, you aren't immediately faced by all their guns and focus down, it's easier to actually land in a good spot with deep strikes and so forth. And again, use lots of terrain so those forces can come in hiding or at least ought to manouver before blasting away.

Too bad that's made really hard. Especially if you aren't good at making terrain yourself as GW's own terrain SUCK as LOS blocking and non-LOS blocking terrain is useless. And of course this is zero help outside home as you can't tinker with terrain. Good luck bringing couple shoe boxes for LOS blocking to tournament or league!

tneva82 wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
But yes, the missions are the thing. Try things like Roving Patrol: as both sides are split to 3 divisions that gradually come on the field, you aren't immediately faced by all their guns and focus down, it's easier to actually land in a good spot with deep strikes and so forth. And again, use lots of terrain so those forces can come in hiding or at least ought to manouver before blasting away.

Too bad that's made really hard. Especially if you aren't good at making terrain yourself as GW's own terrain SUCK as LOS blocking and non-LOS blocking terrain is useless. And of course this is zero help outside home as you can't tinker with terrain. Good luck bringing couple shoe boxes for LOS blocking to tournament or league!

And it's one of the biggest problems tournaments face and big blow to elite armies/favor for alpha strike . A disadvantage of hordes is the difficulty in bringing their full power to bear , in theory. Small board size and lack of terrain mean you usually have 100% of your firepower and near perfect target choice at your avaibility.

Techpriestsupport wrote:


Some of us want to be DONE, at least for a while, pouring money into a company so utterly amoral it gives people who sell drugs to school kids on playgrounds someone to look down on.

Yea, there you go. Way to set the pace on your fifth post.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Techpriestsupport wrote:


Some of us want to be DONE, at least for a while, pouring money into a company so utterly amoral it gives people who sell drugs to school kids on playgrounds someone to look down on.

Yea, there you go. Way to set the pace on your fifth post.

Belch.

Ive got a lot of terrain built up over the last 6th months and its doing my army no good.

I still have to get across the feild with my 12 guns and not being able to disembark after movement makes wave serpents horrible. I cut my shooting down to 1 third to run to my opponent (i lose everything, if i hold back i just lose all to long range and deep strikes).

A big fix to the whole game that should have been in CA is a change to all weapons ranges to make them only good for their designated purpose. Take the punisher cannon for example 20 s5 shots oh and if it moves under half it shoots twice. Its a meq killer that reaches my monsters and tanks turn 1 and volume wins. Guns like that and bolter should all be 12 inches to scale to the table better. I am more often killed off by infantry guns in mass with 24 inch range than i am by the tank busters that should be killing my tanks and monsters.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
But yes, the missions are the thing. Try things like Roving Patrol: as both sides are split to 3 divisions that gradually come on the field, you aren't immediately faced by all their guns and focus down, it's easier to actually land in a good spot with deep strikes and so forth. And again, use lots of terrain so those forces can come in hiding or at least ought to manouver before blasting away.

Too bad that's made really hard. Especially if you aren't good at making terrain yourself as GW's own terrain SUCK as LOS blocking and non-LOS blocking terrain is useless. And of course this is zero help outside home as you can't tinker with terrain. Good luck bringing couple shoe boxes for LOS blocking to tournament or league!

Here you go:
https://www.gamemat.eu/our-products/terrain/sk/
A nice collection of pre-painted, resin terrain. I just got the industrial and modern warfare kits myself and they are pretty awesome. The industrial has a good deal of blocking terrain for models up to leman russ tanks.

This isn't 1995 where the only option for Warhammer accessories is stuff from GW. There are tons of options out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vaurapung wrote:
Ive got a lot of terrain built up over the last 6th months and its doing my army no good.

I still have to get across the feild with my 12 guns and not being able to disembark after movement makes wave serpents horrible. I cut my shooting down to 1 third to run to my opponent (i lose everything, if i hold back i just lose all to long range and deep strikes).

A big fix to the whole game that should have been in CA is a change to all weapons ranges to make them only good for their designated purpose. Take the punisher cannon for example 20 s5 shots oh and if it moves under half it shoots twice. Its a meq killer that reaches my monsters and tanks turn 1 and volume wins. Guns like that and bolter should all be 12 inches to scale to the table better. I am more often killed off by infantry guns in mass with 24 inch range than i am by the tank busters that should be killing my tanks and monsters.

Sounds like an issue with your army composition. Eldar has an answer for everything, but if you don't have the models, then obviously you don't have the answer.

Also, your wave serpents are should be surviving a ton of shooting and lasting multiple turns. If not, try adding spirit stones to increase their longevity. Force your opponent to take the target priority you want them to have as opposed to giving them the choice. With transports and Webway or Cloudstrike you can keep your stuff protected and strike when you want.

 Lance845 wrote:

Techpriestsupport wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Yeah, GW has learned if a book has no matched play content, or minimal matched play content, it won't get bought. CA is a perfect example: There's a lot to the book, but most of it might as well not exist because it's not matched play, and the part that is matched play (new missions) get ignored in may cases because ITC exists. This leaves what, maybe 20 pages for the faction updates/points? out of a 90+ page book?

Which is why a lot of people are complaining. They know that if the point updates were free, they wouldn't bother buying CA in the first place so they feel that they are being screwed over.

And quite rightly so. Some of us want to be DONE, at least for a while, pouring money into a company so utterly amoral it gives people who sell drugs to school kids on playgrounds someone to look down on. I would like to collect and finish an army and be able to play it for at least a year or so without GW trying to dunk its hand into my wallet again.. A couple hundred fat least or an army, 50 for a rules book.. 30-50 for a codex, some armies need more than one codex.

Then along comes CA and it's like "Gimme 'nuther 35! " NO, GOD DAMN YOU, NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!! "

Then don't buy it. It's not like all the point updates can't be found online for free before the books even come out. You can right click and save the images and adjust the point costs in your own books with a pen or make your own updated point file or use things like battlescribe which updates quickly.

Why the hell anyone pays for something they don't want is beyond me.

I've been saying this for months. A lot of people are carrying on that Chapter Approved is a 3 page PDF that only has a couple point changes in it.

If the points are the only thing you wanted out of the book, then a quick Google search will find exactly what you're after. CA had a lot more content in it such as a new set of missions for each game type (some of which are actually quite fun to play, Targets of Opportunity being my favourite).

You don't want any of that stuff, then don't buy it.

How are new missions helpful if every game is just a struggle to not get tabled?

vaurapung wrote:
How are new missions helpful if every game is just a struggle to not get tabled?

Are you only playing the tippy top of Dark Reaper and IG lists?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

vaurapung wrote:
How are new missions helpful if every game is just a struggle to not get tabled?

Are you only playing the tippy top of Dark Reaper and IG lists?

Or more likely he's playing on table with little to no terrain. I'd suggest playing on table with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain would be a start.

If every game is a tabling then there is something fundamentally wrong with his list

Here is a typical board design if i help set it up.

Tabling in my games come from volume of fire inefficiencies, eldar has such a low rate of low power guns compared to the other armies i face. I would guesstimate that i get one to every two shots that my opponnent has and craftworlds ability to focus down kills blows. 3 fire prisms on odds might kill a carnafex. Or maybe one unit of troops. But 3 lemuns with punishers can kill whatever they point at and some. Or three carnfexes with heavy venoms laying into one tank or 80 necron warriors slogging across the feild. They all out gun and out fire anything i put on the feild and mostly because i have to flootslog most of my army or pay for kit out some wave serpents and reduce my armys total output.

Its these army imbalances that chapter approved should be fixing. Or at least suggesting a set of rules that levels the playing feild.

Btw i have had a couple of good games, like 4 out of 40. And they were all against marines with similar builds as mine. A few troops and few elites and a few tanks with some other supporters. Our list filled the same slots and our games were dead even. Every other army and every other game has been a landslide bloodfest in my opponents favor.

Punisher have a 24'' range. Necron warriors are the same. Of course they get to be cheaper per shot than a long range weapon. Wave serpents are very robust with a -1 to being hit and the damage reduction vs any multi wound hits.

And come on. How do three heavy venom cannons kill a wave serpent easily while three fire prisms struggle to kill one carnifex?

vaurapung wrote:
Here is a typical board design if i help set it up.

Tabling in my games come from volume of fire inefficiencies, eldar has such a low rate of low power guns compared to the other armies i face. I would guesstimate that i get one to every two shots that my opponnent has and craftworlds ability to focus down kills blows. 3 fire prisms on odds might kill a carnafex. Or maybe one unit of troops. But 3 lemuns with punishers can kill whatever they point at and some. Or three carnfexes with heavy venoms laying into one tank or 80 necron warriors slogging across the feild. They all out gun and out fire anything i put on the feild and mostly because i have to flootslog most of my army or pay for kit out some wave serpents and reduce my armys total output.

Its these army imbalances that chapter approved should be fixing. Or at least suggesting a set of rules that levels the playing feild.

Btw i have had a couple of good games, like 4 out of 40. And they were all against marines with similar builds as mine. A few troops and few elites and a few tanks with some other supporters. Our list filled the same slots and our games were dead even. Every other army and every other game has been a landslide bloodfest in my opponents favor.

3 venom canons are shooting 3d3 shots with each successful hit/wound doing d3 damage. How many things do you think that is reliably killing?

I don't really see the problem with CA.
No one is forcing you to buy / use it.

I don't realy care about 95% of it.
I just looked the Ork page on a friend one because I play against codex armies with an index one.

It's like for models, even if they are part of your army, no one is forcing you to buy / play them.

If you attend tournaments, of course, things are different. TO obviously get to choose which set of rule they are using. That's normal and you have to comply or not to attend.
If someone choose to organize a V2 tournament, you can't complaint it doesn't use the latest rules.

What I find really strange is that it seems that no one could imagine a tournament which do not use the latest rules for units but have no problem with them using home made rules for mission / victory conditions, and even (in my country, which is not USA) army composition.

tl;dr; No CA, no problem

IronSlug wrote:
I don't really see the problem with CA.
No one is forcing you to buy / use it.

I don't realy care about 95% of it.
I just looked the Ork page on a friend one because I play against codex armies with an index one.

It's like for models, even if they are part of your army, no one is forcing you to buy / play them.

If you attend tournaments, of course, things are different. TO obviously get to choose which set of rule they are using. That's normal and you have to comply or not to attend.
If someone choose to organize a V2 tournament, you can't complaint it doesn't use the latest rules.

What I find really strange is that it seems that no one could imagine a tournament which do not use the latest rules for units but have no problem with them using home made rules for mission / victory conditions, and even (in my country, which is not USA) army composition.

tl;dr; No CA, no problem

No-one aside from every offical event ever.

IronSlug wrote:
I don't really see the problem with CA.
No one is forcing you to buy / use it.

Sure. Does limit you from playing just in your home though.

tneva82 wrote:

IronSlug wrote:
I don't really see the problem with CA.
No one is forcing you to buy / use it.

Sure. Does limit you from playing just in your home though.

How? You go to your store and you play with PL. Or your opponent has CA and you build your list with that. Or you use battlescribe for free. Or you use google for free.

Nothing restricts anyone anywhere.

nekooni wrote:
Punisher have a 24'' range. Necron warriors are the same. Of course they get to be cheaper per shot than a long range weapon. Wave serpents are very robust with a -1 to being hit and the damage reduction vs any multi wound hits.

And come on. How do three heavy venom cannons kill a wave serpent easily while three fire prisms struggle to kill one carnifex?

The dude is just really, really bad at 40k. He's made a couple of threads like this and basically since 8th dropped all he's done is whine about how it's "too confusing" and how all his opponents have way better stuff than he does.

vaurapung wrote:
Here is a typical board design if i help set it up.

Tabling in my games come from volume of fire inefficiencies, eldar has such a low rate of low power guns compared to the other armies i face....r.

Sorry, I stopped reading at this point. You play Eldar and are complaining about facing heavy venom canons and necron hordes tabling.. Eldar?

vaurapung wrote:
Here is a typical board design if i help set it up.

I think proper deployment can do wonders for your ability to win games. Eldar are really effective at moving and shooting, so try using those builds to block LOS to your enemy. If he goes first, it will go a long way towards protecting your army. Also use the "Linked Fire" stratagem to your advantage. Assuming you have 3 fire prisms (or even 2) put on up to 59" away from the first and that should buy you some Protection. Here is an example of a different way you could have deployed in the game from your picture.
_____________________________________________________ | x x x x x x X X x x | | ________ ________ | | | | | | | | |________| |________| | | F W W F W F | |____________________________________________________|

W = Wave Serpent
F= Fire Prism

Giving your opponents the right targets is incredibly important, especially for Armies like Eldar which lack resiliency of tougher armies.

 Corrode wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Punisher have a 24'' range. Necron warriors are the same. Of course they get to be cheaper per shot than a long range weapon. Wave serpents are very robust with a -1 to being hit and the damage reduction vs any multi wound hits.

And come on. How do three heavy venom cannons kill a wave serpent easily while three fire prisms struggle to kill one carnifex?

The dude is just really, really bad at 40k. He's made a couple of threads like this and basically since 8th dropped all he's done is whine about how it's "too confusing" and how all his opponents have way better stuff than he does.

My mantra - if I lost it's because I did something wrong. Don't blame the dice. Don't blame the opponent. Even IF there are some imbalances I need to reflect and find areas to improve.

That said I'll agree in general. Vaurapung you don't appear reflective. Everything is someone else's fault. And that is what, in my mind, makes someone a bad player. And this is not intended as a vitriolic comment, but an opportunity to apply a different perspective.

Your probably right deadalus about a lot of my issues being self inflicted. In a lot of my post i reflect outside of dakkadakka about what i want from the game and how its not been provided since 7th ended. Getting tabled because the models i choose to play is where i hold my fault with gw and CA did not help matters (thats what i think CA is for, providing better game balance), i could go and buy the best bang for buck but then thats not my army. My army is a composition of gaurdians and lords with other unit to fill the gaps ie wraithknights, wave serpents and wraithgaurd or blades. My choosing to play those units should not be the auto loss choice that ive seen it become. And i play craftworld with heavy iyanden influence not ynnari bc i choose eldar as my personal faction and wraiths as my personal emblem. I dont play to win but i also dont play to die. The community i see here is so torn between competive and story that there is no room for the middle guy that just wants a good game win or lose where every turn could be a deciding factor. The games that i lose are decided at the top of round two when half my army is gone or i made no kills.

And mokoshkanas deployment was my original deployment or close too and i used phantasm to castle up because i was afraid of his army, there was a misplay in that game too but two rounds of 6 brightlances and 3 fireprisms only killed one carnfex and heavily wounded the other i would have been assaulted by the remaining 5 on center board at the top of 3rd but he had to go home bc of work the following day.

vaurapung wrote:
My choosing to play those units should not be the auto loss choice that ive seen it become. And i play craftworld with heavy iyanden influence not ynnari bc i choose eldar as my personal faction and wraiths as my personal emblem. I dont play to win but i also dont play to die. The community i see here is so torn between competive and story that there is no room for the middle guy that just wants a good game win or lose where every turn could be a deciding factor. The games that i lose are decided at the top of round two when half my army is gone or i made no kills.

Yea man there's nothing wrong with not wanting to keep up with the Joneses. My expectation of GW is that you should eventually be able to take any unit and feel capable (as long as the rest of your list fills in the other roles).

That said I don't think there is much in the actual list portion that is causing you so much heartburn that it is causing an auto-loss, but it's really hard to do over the internet. We'd have to spend hours reviewing past games, lists, etc. I'm sure if you put the time in you'll be able to escape the CA-blame-orbit.

The CA blame is that it provided no real benifits to the whole of the game like it promised. It did less than a faq. Maybe if it had been marketed as a mission supplement book instead of a rules update book the hate from the community would be less but it tried to do both and helped neither much.

vaurapung wrote:
The CA blame is that it provided no real benifits to the whole of the game like it promised. It did less than a faq. Maybe if it had been marketed as a mission supplement book instead of a rules update book the hate from the community would be less but it tried to do both and helped neither much.

You're looking for CA to solve your problem of being tabled constantly. It was never going to do that, because the problem is elsewhere.

vaurapung wrote:
The CA blame is that it provided no real benifits to the whole of the game like it promised. It did less than a faq. Maybe if it had been marketed as a mission supplement book instead of a rules update book the hate from the community would be less but it tried to do both and helped neither much.

CA could never fix what you wanted it to fix though.

vaurapung wrote:
The CA blame is that it provided no real benifits to the whole of the game like it promised. It did less than a faq. Maybe if it had been marketed as a mission supplement book instead of a rules update book the hate from the community would be less but it tried to do both and helped neither much.

Please find me a link and a quote from any GW source that says CA was going to provide " real benifits to the whole of the game"

I have never seen a FAQ provide new missions, give stratagems to the majority of the armies in the game, provide modeling advice for making objective markers, and beta rules.

This is the most subjective question ever.

How much disposable income do you have? Lots? Then you'll probably have it and think it was worth it. Not as much? You probably won't have it and will think it's a rip off.

Personally I love it just for the mission variation.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This is the most subjective question ever.

How much disposable income do you have? Lots? Then you'll probably have it and think it was worth it. Not as much? You probably won't have it and will think it's a rip off.

Personally I love it just for the mission variation.

Yea this is probably a fair point. Those of us richie riches can squeeze out $25-35 without too much concern. Then again if that amount causes you distress this might not be the best hobby.

Of course my eyes are far bigger than my wallet could ever sustain and I actually don't buy that often.