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I can't buy a piss bucket for 120 pts in my codex, but it gets me 30 warm body guardsmen to stand there and absorb my opponent's alpha strike and block deep strike AND generate CP. So, yeah, I don't consider 120 to be a significant investment worthy of notice.

Custodes shred chaff like there is no tomorrow... just saying.

 Primark G wrote:
Custodes shred chaff like there is no tomorrow... just saying.

As they should, but the chaff player is still coming out on top, because they wasted the turn of a very expensive Custodes squad. As I have stated before, temporal costs related to screens and in particular guardsmen are the real killers. Every unit that fires or assaults guardsmen/gaunts/cultists is essentially wasting their turn.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Custodes shred chaff like there is no tomorrow... just saying.

As they should, but the chaff player is still coming out on top, because they wasted the turn of a very expensive Custodes squad. As I have stated before, temporal costs related to screens and in particular guardsmen are the real killers. Every unit that fires or assaults guardsmen/gaunts/cultists is essentially wasting their turn.

Aaaaanndd this is why it's important for tournaments to go beyond turn 4. Wasting 25% of the game killing guardsmen is a much larger problem than wasting 16.7% of the game killing guardsmen.

It's an enormous problem either way. There really is no "later" game against IG usually, as they have tabled the opponent.

Martel732 wrote:
It's an enormous problem either way. There really is no "later" game against IG usually, as they have tabled the opponent.

Only the bad ones.

That's the thing. It's not really up to them. You can't even hide.

It is not a problem it is part of the game and IG are well know for their problems holding objectives outside their DZ.

Razorback with Storm Bolter-116 Points
Assume the Captain and Lieutenant buff four of them, and they cost, what? About 160 together?
So that is 624 points and 3 Command Points.
They get 48 shots at S6 AP-1 D1 and 8 shots at S4 AP0 D1, at 24", rerolling all 1s and 2s to-hit and 1s to-wound.

Leman Russ with Punisher and Heavy Bolter is 150 points.
Assume they're Cadian, which is free, and there are four of them.
600 points, no CP spent.
They get 160 shots at S5 AP0 D1 at 24" and 12 shots at S5 AP-1 D1 at 36", rerolling 1s to-hit.

Against GEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 2240/54 wounds, for 2800/81 damage, or 34.57.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 448/81 wounds, for 896/243 damage, or 3.69.
Total damage is 38.26, for 16.31 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 1120/27 damage, or 41.48.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, and 35/9 damage, or 3.89.
Total damage is 45.37, for 13.22 points per wound.

Against MEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 896/27 wounds, for 448/27 damage, or 16.59.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 32/9 wounds, for 32/27 damage, or 1.19.
Total damage is 17.78, for 35.10 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 560/27 damage, or 20.74.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, for 7/3 damage, or 2.33.
Total damage is 23.07, for 26.01 points per wound.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Punishers, with absolutely no support, significantly outdo the Raorbacks with lots of support.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Razorback with Storm Bolter-116 Points
Assume the Captain and Lieutenant buff four of them, and they cost, what? About 160 together?
So that is 624 points and 3 Command Points.
They get 48 shots at S6 AP-1 D1 and 8 shots at S4 AP0 D1, at 24", rerolling all 1s and 2s to-hit and 1s to-wound.

Leman Russ with Punisher and Heavy Bolter is 150 points.
Assume they're Cadian, which is free, and there are four of them.
600 points, no CP spent.
They get 160 shots at S5 AP0 D1 at 24" and 12 shots at S5 AP-1 D1 at 36", rerolling 1s to-hit.

Against GEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 2240/54 wounds, for 2800/81 damage, or 34.57.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 448/81 wounds, for 896/243 damage, or 3.69.
Total damage is 38.26, for 16.31 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 1120/27 damage, or 41.48.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, and 35/9 damage, or 3.89.
Total damage is 45.37, for 13.22 points per wound.

Against MEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 896/27 wounds, for 448/27 damage, or 16.59.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 32/9 wounds, for 32/27 damage, or 1.19.
Total damage is 17.78, for 35.10 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 560/27 damage, or 20.74.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, for 7/3 damage, or 2.33.
Total damage is 23.07, for 26.01 points per wound.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Punishers, with absolutely no support, significantly outdo the Raorbacks with lots of support.

WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT
so you're telling me that a dedicated shooting battle-tank that takes up a heavy support slot outperforms an Infantry Fighting Vehicle that takes up a dedicated transport slot?
Hold the phone!
Clearly the problem is that Space Marine dedicated transports aren't able to compete in a straight shooting match with Imperial Guard main battle tanks.

The problem absolutely couldn't be that people are comparing a MBT with a Dedicated Transport and expecting equal performance. After all, we all know that the Sdkfz 251 was just as effective as the Tiger I when it came to enemy infantry. Oh boy, and you should see the Stryker! One wonders why main battle tanks are even produced anymore.

This was given as the Space Marine answer to hordes. It fails compared to the Russ.

And note that being Heavy Support is actually BETTER than Dedicated Transport in most cases, since it helps you gain CP, whereas DT does not.

But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

 JNAProductions wrote:
This was given as the Space Marine answer to hordes. It fails compared to the Russ.

And note that being Heavy Support is actually BETTER than Dedicated Transport in most cases, since it helps you gain CP, whereas DT does not.

So the Marine answer to hordes fails compared to the Guard answer to hordes... okay. I accept that. Explain why every army has to be able to deal with hordes equally.

I think it's entirely possible for armies to have strengths and weaknesses, and I think the Guard weakness is close combat, while the Marine one is hordes.

Of course, good play can obviate an army's weakness, such as Guard screening their weak-to-CC units with cheap ones or Space Marines using their superior mobility to achieve better force concentration (as Insectum advocates) instead of trying to fight the whole horde at once.

 JNAProductions wrote:
This was given as the Space Marine answer to hordes. It fails compared to the Russ.

And note that being Heavy Support is actually BETTER than Dedicated Transport in most cases, since it helps you gain CP, whereas DT does not.

It was given as a possible answer, one of many possible answers. Sternguard with Storm Bolters fare well. Some people are looking at agressors. I often just use more basic guys and chew on the GEQ over a number of turns.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's an enormous problem either way. There really is no "later" game against IG usually, as they have tabled the opponent.

Only the bad ones.

Skill has literally nothing to do with tabling with no LOS manticores - it is a simple math problem. After 3-4 turns of fire you have nothing left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Razorback with Storm Bolter-116 Points
Assume the Captain and Lieutenant buff four of them, and they cost, what? About 160 together?
So that is 624 points and 3 Command Points.
They get 48 shots at S6 AP-1 D1 and 8 shots at S4 AP0 D1, at 24", rerolling all 1s and 2s to-hit and 1s to-wound.

Leman Russ with Punisher and Heavy Bolter is 150 points.
Assume they're Cadian, which is free, and there are four of them.
600 points, no CP spent.
They get 160 shots at S5 AP0 D1 at 24" and 12 shots at S5 AP-1 D1 at 36", rerolling 1s to-hit.

Against GEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 2240/54 wounds, for 2800/81 damage, or 34.57.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 448/81 wounds, for 896/243 damage, or 3.69.
Total damage is 38.26, for 16.31 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 1120/27 damage, or 41.48.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, and 35/9 damage, or 3.89.
Total damage is 45.37, for 13.22 points per wound.

Against MEQ...

Razorbacks' 48 Assault Cannon shots do 128/3 hits, 896/27 wounds, for 448/27 damage, or 16.59.
Razorbacks' 8 Storm Bolter shots do 64/9 hits, 32/9 wounds, for 32/27 damage, or 1.19.
Total damage is 17.78, for 35.10 points per wound.

Leman Russ' 160 Punisher shots do 280/3 hits, 560/9 wounds, for 560/27 damage, or 20.74.
Leman Russ' 12 Heavy Bolter shots do 7 hits, 14/3 wounds, for 7/3 damage, or 2.33.
Total damage is 23.07, for 26.01 points per wound.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Punishers, with absolutely no support, significantly outdo the Raorbacks with lots of support.

WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT
so you're telling me that a dedicated shooting battle-tank that takes up a heavy support slot outperforms an Infantry Fighting Vehicle that takes up a dedicated transport slot?
Hold the phone!
Clearly the problem is that Space Marine dedicated transports aren't able to compete in a straight shooting match with Imperial Guard main battle tanks.

The problem absolutely couldn't be that people are comparing a MBT with a Dedicated Transport and expecting equal performance. After all, we all know that the Sdkfz 251 was just as effective as the Tiger I when it came to enemy infantry. Oh boy, and you should see the Stryker! One wonders why main battle tanks are even produced anymore.

Feel free to make statements like this but then in return figure that our Dakka build MBT is worse at taking on hordes than our dedicated transport. The only conclusion that can be made is that the marine tanks need to be buffed. What's even more nonsensical is AM players keep harping on about how much the LR sucks...because they have even better options!!!

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

I find that reasoning disingenuous. The characters only have a 6" buff bubble, and Razorbacks are not insubstantial models. You might be able to cram one or two more units into the aura, but not a whole army.

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

Not really. First off, you're not buffing your ENTIRE army with just one Chapter Master and Lt.

And second of all, let me run the math assuming the CM and Lt. are FREE.

Same numbers, of course, for hitting and wounding, but PPW goes differently...

12.13 PPW against GEQ.
26.10 PPW against MEQ.

As compared to 13.22 against GEQ and 26.01 against MEQ.

Notice how, even assuming the buffers are TOTALLY FREE, they barely outperform the Punishers against GEQ and do NOT outperform them against MEQ. (It's really close against MEQ, though.)

I feel like Im able to do it all the time.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

I find that reasoning disingenuous. The characters only have a 6" buff bubble, and Razorbacks are not insubstantial models. You might be able to cram one or two more units into the aura, but not a whole army.

Remember that it doesn't have to be wholly within, so you can have exactly 1 square millimetre of a Razorback's total area in the 6" bubble and get the bonus. It actually should be fairly trivial to get the whole army in the bubble, if one has options for controlling one's deployment (e.g. drop pods).

Deep strike is 100% precise now, so with careful measuring it should be easy.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

Not really. First off, you're not buffing your ENTIRE army with just one Chapter Master and Lt.

And second of all, let me run the math assuming the CM and Lt. are FREE.

Same numbers, of course, for hitting and wounding, but PPW goes differently...

12.13 PPW against GEQ.
26.10 PPW against MEQ.

As compared to 13.22 against GEQ and 26.01 against MEQ.

Notice how, even assuming the buffers are TOTALLY FREE, they barely outperform the Punishers against GEQ and do NOT outperform them against MEQ. (It's really close against MEQ, though.)

I mean, great. You're basically telling me that with the right combination of units we get comparable damage output. Thanks.

This is why i'm resorting to soup. So ig players can take a turn shooting at nothing. A 40 pt guard squad is basically a drop pod for ba. Incredible.

Martel732 wrote:
This is why i'm resorting to soup. So ig players can take a turn shooting at nothing. A 40 pt guard squad is basically a drop pod for ba. Incredible.

If the IG are shooting your screen then the player must've had a brain aneurysm. Bullets go past screens.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

Not really. First off, you're not buffing your ENTIRE army with just one Chapter Master and Lt.

And second of all, let me run the math assuming the CM and Lt. are FREE.

Same numbers, of course, for hitting and wounding, but PPW goes differently...

12.13 PPW against GEQ.
26.10 PPW against MEQ.

As compared to 13.22 against GEQ and 26.01 against MEQ.

Notice how, even assuming the buffers are TOTALLY FREE, they barely outperform the Punishers against GEQ and do NOT outperform them against MEQ. (It's really close against MEQ, though.)

I mean, great. You're basically telling me that with the right combination of units we get comparable damage output. Thanks.

If you completely ignore the costs of the buffing units, yes.

160 Points and 3 CP is far from nothing.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

Not really. First off, you're not buffing your ENTIRE army with just one Chapter Master and Lt.

And second of all, let me run the math assuming the CM and Lt. are FREE.

Same numbers, of course, for hitting and wounding, but PPW goes differently...

12.13 PPW against GEQ.
26.10 PPW against MEQ.

As compared to 13.22 against GEQ and 26.01 against MEQ.

Notice how, even assuming the buffers are TOTALLY FREE, they barely outperform the Punishers against GEQ and do NOT outperform them against MEQ. (It's really close against MEQ, though.)

I mean, great. You're basically telling me that with the right combination of units we get comparable damage output. Thanks.

If you completely ignore the costs of the buffing units, yes.

160 Points and 3 CP is far from nothing.

Right. I mean what really should happen is a completely unbuffed infantry transport should totally rival a main battle tank benefitting from it's army-wide special rule in capability.
Sensible and intuitive!

Again, I'm running the math against the units that I WAS GIVEN as anti-horde units.

Want me to run the math on other units? I'll do it. I don't have work for a few hours.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But your math relies on the assumption that the cost of the characters is limited only to buffing the Razors, when the 4 Razors cost only 1/4th ish of the army. If you assume the cost of the character buffs is spread out among the whole force, the cost for their buff to the Razors becomes 40 points, adjusting your ppw considerably.

Not really. First off, you're not buffing your ENTIRE army with just one Chapter Master and Lt.

And second of all, let me run the math assuming the CM and Lt. are FREE.

Same numbers, of course, for hitting and wounding, but PPW goes differently...

12.13 PPW against GEQ.
26.10 PPW against MEQ.

As compared to 13.22 against GEQ and 26.01 against MEQ.

Notice how, even assuming the buffers are TOTALLY FREE, they barely outperform the Punishers against GEQ and do NOT outperform them against MEQ. (It's really close against MEQ, though.)

I mean, great. You're basically telling me that with the right combination of units we get comparable damage output. Thanks.

If you completely ignore the costs of the buffing units, yes.

160 Points and 3 CP is far from nothing.

It's not nothing, sure. But in my case it's just the cost of building a marine army. It does mean that a punisher is slightly more cost efficient in a standing-still scenario. Buuuut,

A: The Razors have a trenendous mobility advantage, as the punishers lose half their shots for miving over 5", and I think lose Cadian rerolls if they move at all. (The Storm Bolters might get to double their shots, too).

B: More importantly, we don't require equivalent tools, just some effective ones. The Razor math proves to me that we have at least one option. There are many others. Storm Ravens are pretty popular and can throw a ton of dice. Storm Bolter Sternguard math out well. Hell, double Storm Bolter Rhinos trade favorably with basic GEQ point for point. Marines in cover start to trade reasonably well with GEQ, especially if they can't bring numbers to bear.

Heck, for the 600 points of punishers, you could fill a Crusader with Sternguard and kill GEQ in droves. Not a popular option, but an amusing one.

The Razorbacks don't have a mobility advantage at all, because they're all clustered up around your buff characters and can't move faster than those characters if they want to keep their buffs.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Razorbacks don't have a mobility advantage at all, because they're all clustered up around your buff characters and can't move faster than those characters if they want to keep their buffs.

If only there was some way (pods) of keeping the Characters up with the (transports) Razorbacks (advancing). It's a pity the characters are rooted to the spot in the movement phase.

Yes bring transports for your characters to keep up with your other transports.

Do you guys even think about this stuff before you propose it?

 Marmatag wrote:
Yes bring transports for your characters to keep up with your other transports.

Do you guys even think about this stuff before you propose it?

Did you think I could've meant putting the characters in the razorbacks? I thought it was clear from the redundancy of saying "Transport" right before saying "Razorback" but I guess if you're looking to insult someone, willful ignorance beats reading comprehension as a debate tactic.