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 Mmmpi wrote:
[spoiler]
GW says they don't rip their flesh from their bones, so it doesn't happen. As I just asked earlier. Source on how titans work while violating physics, and psykers. I'll wait.

No, you gave a stupid, hyperbolic example and you are trying to double down because you can't provide me a quote because it doesn't fething exist in the lore. Not even BL authors are stupid enough to write anime crap like that into 40k lore.

I have answered your questions before, titans are made out of adamantium which has many times the durability and tensile strength of conventional steel or titanium. Thus things like titans can be constructed which would be impossible using modern day materials.
Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adamantium

As for psykers, I am not sure the exact mechanism behind what makes an organic brain capable of psychic powers, nor is it explained in the setting. As I said before, speculative science is speculative. I don't mind the setting taking liberties with branches of science that have not yet been explored by humans. However, I DO expect the basic laws of Newtonian physics to apply for any kind of story to maintain my suspension of disbelief.

Ice_can wrote:
Nope ithe 18 shots is an inherent ability for a riptide
That's what he should have done turn 1, really no overwatch casualties I've murdered bloat drones with tau overwatch the firewarriors alone should have been enough to kill the remaining 10ish marines in overwatch

Just to be clear rhinos don't block LOS in 8th edition you can see under them. Only landradiers, Leman Russes and Chimeras block line of sight parked sideways.

Yeahhh... we're not shooting under Rhinos, even if technically you might be able too.

I'm not familiar with the nova charge move for Riptides, but I'm guessing he wasn't shooting 18 times with everything because he was giving them a 3++.

I couldn't provide a quote, but I did provide the books I'm mostly positive they're in. You'd have to check them anyway to verify what I had said as it is.

So, meet the standards you want me to follow.

Your link doesn't say how it makes them able to ignore it. Only that they're made of the stuff. How about how they avoid sinking into the ground everytime they try to walk? I don't mean a few inches/feet. I mean up to their crotch.

So you don't have a source on psykers. It's 'magic' that they can do it.

hmmm...

Now, in terms of GW's universe, I'm prepared to admit they work. In universe they obviously work, despite breaking real world physics. If an eldar were to magically appear in the real world I'd also agree that they either couldn't move that fast, or that they'd rip themselves apart. But that's the real world. In GW's 40KVerse they very much can.

Space marine pulling 10 ton turrets off of moving vehicles, despite not weighing more than .89 tons (in MKVIII armor) breaks my suspension of disbelief. The fact that the can do it does, and the fact that once they do it doesn't crush them into paste does. But GW apparently says it works (you didn't provide a source. Again, meet your own standards).

Edit: On my previous post I said sink into bedrock. I meant down to bedrock.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nope ithe 18 shots is an inherent ability for a riptide
That's what he should have done turn 1, really no overwatch casualties I've murdered bloat drones with tau overwatch the firewarriors alone should have been enough to kill the remaining 10ish marines in overwatch

Just to be clear rhinos don't block LOS in 8th edition you can see under them. Only landradiers, Leman Russes and Chimeras block line of sight parked sideways.

Yeahhh... we're not shooting under Rhinos, even if technically you might be able too.

I'm not familiar with the nova charge move for Riptides, but I'm guessing he wasn't shooting 18 times with everything because he was giving them a 3++.

If your going to house rule that vehicals blovk los etc etc no wonder rhino rush works for you, your need that house rule to make it work.

Again bad play on his part HBC riptides always tek the extra shooting. It effects shooting and overwatch and a 3++ is irrelevant if the opponent has nothinf to shoot you with.

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nope ithe 18 shots is an inherent ability for a riptide
That's what he should have done turn 1, really no overwatch casualties I've murdered bloat drones with tau overwatch the firewarriors alone should have been enough to kill the remaining 10ish marines in overwatch

Just to be clear rhinos don't block LOS in 8th edition you can see under them. Only landradiers, Leman Russes and Chimeras block line of sight parked sideways.

Yeahhh... we're not shooting under Rhinos, even if technically you might be able too.

I'm not familiar with the nova charge move for Riptides, but I'm guessing he wasn't shooting 18 times with everything because he was giving them a 3++.

If your going to house rule that vehicals blovk los etc etc no wonder rhino rush works for you, your need that house rule to make it work.

Again bad play on his part HBC riptides always tek the extra shooting. It effects shooting and overwatch and a 3++ is irrelevant if the opponent has nothinf to shoot you with.

He definitely wanted the 3++ because I had Plasma and Grav for days. 6 extra shots wouldn't have changed that.

I'll defend not shooting under Rhinos for days if you like. In fact it's possible the Rhinos blocked LOS anyways because they were tilted on a crater, and the marines were in the crater.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Nope ithe 18 shots is an inherent ability for a riptide
That's what he should have done turn 1, really no overwatch casualties I've murdered bloat drones with tau overwatch the firewarriors alone should have been enough to kill the remaining 10ish marines in overwatch

Just to be clear rhinos don't block LOS in 8th edition you can see under them. Only landradiers, Leman Russes and Chimeras block line of sight parked sideways.

Yeahhh... we're not shooting under Rhinos, even if technically you might be able too.

I'm not familiar with the nova charge move for Riptides, but I'm guessing he wasn't shooting 18 times with everything because he was giving them a 3++.

If your going to house rule that vehicals blovk los etc etc no wonder rhino rush works for you, your need that house rule to make it work.

Again bad play on his part HBC riptides always tek the extra shooting. It effects shooting and overwatch and a 3++ is irrelevant if the opponent has nothinf to shoot you with.

He definitely wanted the 3++ because I had Plasma and Grav for days. 6 extra shots wouldn't have changed that.

I'll defend not shooting under Rhinos for days if you like. In fact it's possible the Rhinos blocked LOS anyways because they were tilted on a crater, and the marines were in the crater.

Grav isn't all that scary to a riptide moving grav does 1.33 wounds to a riptide, you need a lot of grav to down a riptide. Not to mention drones can tank anything too scary looking.
It also means your not shooting anything at missilesides etc etc.

Though I also suspect his deployment was pretty bad by the sounds of it as he couls have quite easily just side stepped the right in your face assualt units with some side stepping. Make you charge thr riptides and fly away, you'd been in real trouble. From then on.

Just to clarify I'm impressed your having sucess with marines but I do wonder if your not having an amount of sucess duw to big fish small pond syndrome. IE you have a beter understanding of 8th than your usual opponents so your winning matchups due to wrong footing them. As I know a lot of 40k players who have a game plan and can't react on the fly.

w1zard wrote:

The Newman wrote:

There's the gasoline explosion.

Seriously though, ten dudes in lose combat formation (5-6 feet apart as specified by unit cohesion) are only going to cover a line 60 feet long at the outside. A little back-of-the-envelope math will tell you a truck doing 70 covers right aroung 100 feet per second, which is more than enough to plow through the whole lot. And yes people will start dodging, but a truck is big and obvious and easy to see coming. People react a lot slower when they don't know what's going on.

Meanwhile the best human sprinter on record was moving at about 15 mph. Eldar are supposed to be substantially faster than a human at the baseline and have centuries of training to get faster yet. Monomolecular weapons would be hideously effective at the kind of slashing attack that kind of speed would necessitate (that's how a katana works and they're not even monomolecular, only rising to the height of "hella sharp"), so at least in theory it's possible. Not likely, but within the realm of possibility if you take alien reflexes and the setting's absurdly sharp CC weapons into consideration.

Now who's the smartass.

Ok if you want to play this game, then yes, I concede that if 10 tactical marines stood back to chest in a straight line, and a howling banshee ran headlong at them at full speed and braced the sword against herself, and she decapitated the lot of them without slowing down or stopping, it would be possible for her to kill an entire squad of tactical marines in less than a second. But that is an extremely contrived scenario. I can kill 20 navy seals in a few seconds by lining them up against a wall and shooting them with a machine gun, but that doesn't make me some super special forces soldier.

Right, because a staggered skirmish line 50 - 60 feet long is absolutley the same as lining up like school childred heading for recess. Why even bring that up when you admit in the very next sentence that isn't the scenario?

w1zard wrote:

The scenario you described, with the marines standing 5-6 feet apart in a combat spread, necessitates direction changes and or multiple sword swings to kill them all. Going at the speed necessary to kill all of them in under a second, those direction changes and or sword swings would rip the flesh from her bones from the inertia of her movement.

Right, because cheetas totally rip themselves apart trying to turn when a gazelle spots them and takes off at any sort of angle. At twice what we've established is the required minimum speed.

You can be as dismissive as you like, but basic math and some common real-world examples say you're wrong. It's still a ridiculous scenario overall, but trying to claim it's physically impossible in the face of that is sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "na na na I can't hear you".

I forgot about cheetahs. Hell Jaguars can exceed the established speed, are just as maneuverable, and three times the size.

 Mmmpi wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't see how much more worthwhile the sister statline is when compared to marines.

Most marines never even see combat due to the faction having terrible mobility options, and their guns are obviously better than their melee weapons.

The difference in assault is laughable.
5 marines kill .44 more guardsmen in melee than 5 sisters do.

The difference in durability is very slight.
Sure, it takes 18 lasguns to kill a marine, but 12 to kill a sister, but this is about as big as the gap gets.
It takes 9 bolter shots to kill a marine, and 7 to kill a sister.
It takes 9 assault cannon shots to kill 2 marines, and it takes 8 to kill two sisters.
So in the end, against the guns that actually do the majority of the killing, they are effectively about the same.

Morale is largely irrelevant on any 5 man squad because they are so easy to wipe out.

And yet sisters do the same amount of damage in shooting as marines do with the same weapons, for about 70% of their cost. They do have slightly different weapon options, but can also take more guns per squad. They are simply more efficient at everything that matters.

Being 4 points cheaper is a big reason why sisters are actually decent right now. Actually having useful transports and acts of faith help A TON as well, but that's a whole other issue.

The next time you play marines, or sisters, mentally ask yourself when they are dying, or fighting, or shooting, if the difference in T/S/WS/LD made a real difference. I think you'll be surprised (or not) to see that it usually doesn't matter, but that having 30% more BS3+ power armor models might have.

So what you're saying is it that against lasguns sisters take 33% more casulties (the most common gun in the game by numbers), about 24% more from bolters, 12% more from assault cannons.
Meanwhile sisters are 31% cheaper. That's in taking fire.

But you're leaving out the +1 leadership, and the fact that if marines make it into combat, they'll inflict more damage. So, more resilient against small arms by more than the cost difference, though less against dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons, and the same against AT weapons.

"but we can't get our marines into close combat" you might say. Well, considering people have posted here that they have, and most Blood angel players have (and their troops aren't any more durable then standard marines) makes me wonder where you're messing up.

So, to sum up. Ranged offense is similar (marines have far more options for weapon upgrades then sisters), but with more range. Defensive durability is higher for marines, ranging from 31% and 29% (lasguns and bolters), to 0% (las cannons and missile launchers). Melee the marines are 33% more likely to hit, 33% more likely to wound, and 50% less likely to be wounded. After both, the higher leadership then makes them less likely to suffer battleshock by 50% (3 casualties for marines before the BS roll even matters, as opposed to two for sisters). Seems like that's a fair trade for four points.

Thanks for the reply.

Do you think the lasgun is the most common gun in the game? Maybe you play a lot more guard than I do, but most armies can't even bring a gun as terrible as the lasgun. Tau, eldar, necrons, don't even use guns as poor as the bolter. Most imperium armies do bring a CP brigade, but are you actually losing Marines/sisters to their 30 lasguns? That seems unlikely to me.

Next time you play a game keep track of what weapons do the marine killing. Also take note of how many times you have a squad only take 2 wounds in a turn. It's been my experience that when a good opponent wants a squad to die, they focus enough of the right firepower into it and it dies.

So yes, they might be 33% more durable vs lasguns, but if you only lose 10% of your Marines to lasguns and the rest to things like heavy bolters, Plasma, etc, they aren't actually worth 33% more, are they? They would have to be 33% more durable in general, not just the best case scenario (one of the worst weapons in the game).

And, they might not have as good morale, but I think that's largely meaningless in a agame where units are being deleted entirely most of the time.

It's definitely possible that your gaming experiences are different than mine, so I'm genuinely interested. I just can't imagine any player would pick 13 point Marines over 9 point sisters if they were given the choice.

As for the assault issue, Marines are only killing about half a guardsmen more per 5 man squad. Does that actually seem worth it to you? I can't really see how it would.

Plasmaguns. Plasma incinerators. Melta guns. Missile launchers (krak). Las cannons. Plasma cannons. Battle cannons.

But most imperial lists I face have about 10 of those, about 20 bolters, and 27-54 lasguns (auto rifles if chaos).

As for the assault, I know that's what the math says. However, my experience in actual play doesn't match that. The guard inflict maybe a wound after saves, but lose 3-4 men, and then a few more to battle shock. That's the typical result for my games. This is assuming 10 marines to 10 guard. I know that's not equal points, but I'm usually sending a squad or rhino load at one target, rather than sending equal points at equal points. If it's two combat squads, rather than a tactical squad I can probably come close to finishing off a guard squad with just melee (and the resulting battleshock)

 Mmmpi wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.

Kill two sisters and they have to make that roll. Kill two marines and they don't. Sure it's a 1/6, but it happens, and sisters are easier to kill unless you're using lascannons or melta.

1/6 chance to lose that extra Sister you bought because they're that much cheaper than the Marines? Yeah whatever on that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I LOL at the notion that +1LD is worth anything when people do what they can to avoid big squads in the first place with both those units.

Bigger squads, fewer drops, more regular guys to chew through before you get to the special/heavies, easier to command board space while still in range for aura buffs.

You have transports if you want to create fewer drops, and two Sisters squads can fit in those.

I bought five sisters, I lost two, now I have a 1/6 chance of losing a special weapons. And sure, I can fit two sister squads in a rhino. But did you say several times in other threads that rhinos suck? Besides, I still have to get out to shoot, which means you can shoot back, or since it's sisters, charge me. Finally, even if I do take a repressor, it's still just a rhino in terms of durability. How hard did you all say it is to kill a rhino?

Seems like that +1 ld does have an effect after all. Oh, and that's not counting that free marine re-roll.

It seems intellectually dishonest to decide he's talking about rhinos here when he probably isn't. Most sisters players take their other transports because they are so much better than anything Marines have access to. Do you not know this? Or are you just making a strawman to try and make someone look bad? Genuinely curious.

Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned durability as why rhinos are bad. It's because they have no fire points or meaningful weapons, and the guys just have to sit there until they can get out there next turn.

Repressors solve these issues, and their durability is fine. They really are a great tank. If Marines could take repressors they would do so every game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Plasmaguns. Plasma incinerators. Melta guns. Missile launchers (krak). Las cannons. Plasma cannons. Battle cannons.

But most imperial lists I face have about 10 of those, about 20 bolters, and 27-54 lasguns (auto rifles if chaos).

As for the assault, I know that's what the math says. However, my experience in actual play doesn't match that. The guard inflict maybe a wound after saves, but lose 3-4 men, and then a few more to battle shock. That's the typical result for my games. This is assuming 10 marines to 10 guard. I know that's not equal points, but I'm usually sending a squad or rhino load at one target, rather than sending equal points at equal points. If it's two combat squads, rather than a tactical squad I can probably come close to finishing off a guard squad with just melee (and the resulting battleshock)

I guess my point is that most of those guns just delete either squad, with a variance of about 1-2 more shots needed to kill Marines. For the assault, yes Marines are better, but it seems like you probably kill so few enemies in cc that it can't matter too much, and isn't something most people want to pay 4 points for. If Marines had another attack, maybe.

I use rhinos with my sisters. I've used repressors and immolators too, but at the moment mostly rhinos.

Most of those weapons I listed do delete marine squads. Granted they're there to kill tough heavily armored targets, so it's not a surprise.
But at the same time, reducing the effect of the other 70 ish guns on the table means fewer casualties. With the better leadership that also means that battle shock doesn't finish off squads, or cause extra casualties.

I did say for assaults that I tended to kill off entire guard squads a turn right? I remember saying that. Yes I said that. It's useful because I'm more likely to finish off wounded squads, and can shoot one target, and fight the other in HtH.

Edit: I think I should clarify what I said about the listed weapons. They excel at killing harder targets. Marines are harder targets. Maybe not tank hard, but they're resistant to small arms fire, compared to many other armies. So people are going to take weapons that excel at killing harder targets to use on marines. That has nothing to do with a marine stat line. Make them T6 with W2 and people are still going to be massacring them with plasma.

The Newman wrote:

Right, because cheetas totally rip themselves apart trying to turn when a gazelle spots them and takes off at any sort of angle. At twice what we've established is the required minimum speed.

You can be as dismissive as you like, but basic math and some common real-world examples say you're wrong. It's still a ridiculous scenario overall, but trying to claim it's physically impossible in the face of that is sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "na na na I can't hear you".

I'd like to see a cheetah catch 10 gazelle all standing 5-6+ feet apart in under a single second. You are being absolutely stupid or willfully ignorant.

If you want math, here we go...

Assuming the howling banshee starts at a standstill 10 meters away from a group of 10 tactical marines spread 3 meters from their nearest comrade. Also assuming the banshee must be within arms reach of her target to kill (sword), and that the banshee has a mass of 90 kilos decked out in all of her gear.

The banshee must cover a total of 40 meters in a single second, meaning that she must be moving at roughly 144 kph, which is already stretching it but ok let's assume she can do it and continue... She has to accelerate to this speed in about .1 second from a dead stop, which would impart roughly 36,000 newtons on her body. This is roughly equivalent to a 3,700 kg object being dropped on top of her head in earth's gravity. The forces would literally rip her apart.

Ok, but lets just say she slowly built up to speed and was already moving at 144 kph fine. Say she wanted to change direction going this speed to kill all of the space marines... she would need to change directions (say 30 degrees?) 9 times in under a second, so each directional change would have to take max around .075 seconds. This means that each directional change would be a delta-v of 40*sin(30)=20 m/s. This delta-v must be reached in 0.075 seconds so that is 24,000 newtons per direction change. This would be equivalent of getting 9 pickup trucks, one after another dropped on top of your head within the span of a single second.

There is no way it is physically possible unless these marines are all lined up in a straight line hugging each other.

You are wrong. Now sit down.

Image entirely unrelated to Wizard and Newman's discussion.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I use rhinos with my sisters. I've used repressors and immolators too, but at the moment mostly rhinos.

Most of those weapons I listed do delete marine squads. Granted they're there to kill tough heavily armored targets, so it's not a surprise.
But at the same time, reducing the effect of the other 70 ish guns on the table means fewer casualties. With the better leadership that also means that battle shock doesn't finish off squads, or cause extra casualties.

I did say for assaults that I tended to kill off entire guard squads a turn right? I remember saying that. Yes I said that. It's useful because I'm more likely to finish off wounded squads, and can shoot one target, and fight the other in HtH.

Edit: I think I should clarify what I said about the listed weapons. They excel at killing harder targets. Marines are harder targets. Maybe not tank hard, but they're resistant to small arms fire, compared to many other armies. So people are going to take weapons that excel at killing harder targets to use on marines. That has nothing to do with a marine stat line. Make them T6 with W2 and people are still going to be massacring them with plasma.

But this is where points come in. Against most weapons in the game, Marines are paying more for their defensive abilities compared to most other units. It's better to be sisters because the damage output is so close and the cost makes up for the durability difference and slightly better melee ability of marines. I'm not saying these things have no value, but I do think it's a very small one, and not something you'd choose if you had the option.

the_scotsman wrote:
Image entirely unrelated to Wizard and Newman's discussion.

I loled. I realize that arguing over lore is stupid considering how subjective it is, but the kind of stupidity that is being displayed by people making demonstrably false claims REALLY bugs me.

jcd386 wrote:
But this is where points come in. Against most weapons in the game, Marines are paying more for their defensive abilities compared to most other units. It's better to be sisters because the damage output is so close and the cost makes up for the durability difference and slightly better melee ability of marines. I'm not saying these things have no value, but I do think it's a very small one, and not something you'd choose if you had the option.

I do wonder how the more nebulous stuff is factored into this, like chapter tactics, etc. Are marines more costly, not just for their extra stats, but because they can benefit from the Raven Guard tactics for example, which make them more durable at range and give them access to infiltration for "free"? I realize there are Acts of Faith, but IIRC they only affect one unit in the army and since they need a 2+ roll, aren't guaranteed to happen.

jcd386 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I use rhinos with my sisters. I've used repressors and immolators too, but at the moment mostly rhinos.

Most of those weapons I listed do delete marine squads. Granted they're there to kill tough heavily armored targets, so it's not a surprise.
But at the same time, reducing the effect of the other 70 ish guns on the table means fewer casualties. With the better leadership that also means that battle shock doesn't finish off squads, or cause extra casualties.

I did say for assaults that I tended to kill off entire guard squads a turn right? I remember saying that. Yes I said that. It's useful because I'm more likely to finish off wounded squads, and can shoot one target, and fight the other in HtH.

Edit: I think I should clarify what I said about the listed weapons. They excel at killing harder targets. Marines are harder targets. Maybe not tank hard, but they're resistant to small arms fire, compared to many other armies. So people are going to take weapons that excel at killing harder targets to use on marines. That has nothing to do with a marine stat line. Make them T6 with W2 and people are still going to be massacring them with plasma.

But this is where points come in. Against most weapons in the game, Marines are paying more for their defensive abilities compared to most other units. It's better to be sisters because the damage output is so close and the cost makes up for the durability difference and slightly better melee ability of marines. I'm not saying these things have no value, but I do think it's a very small one, and not something you'd choose if you had the option.

Starting with a sister's stats. +1 S (1pt), +1 T (1 pt), +1 WS (+1 pt), +1 LD (+1 pt). That's four points over the sister stats. Two of those point are for defense (T and LD) and two are for melee attack (S/WS). So if you only want 11 pt marines, I have no problem making them WS4+ S3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Image entirely unrelated to Wizard and Newman's discussion.

I loled. I realize that arguing over lore is stupid considering how subjective it is, but the kind of stupidity that is being displayed by people making demonstrably false claims REALLY bugs me.

You do know that in this example you're the comic book guy not us. The only reason we're discussing physics and 40K is because you don't seem to understand writer fiat, fictional universe, and fantasy.

That reminds me W1zard, I'm still waiting on those sources. Or are we just to assume that titans work because the authors said they do? Remember, these are your standards I'm holding you to.

w1zard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Image entirely unrelated to Wizard and Newman's discussion.

I loled. I realize that arguing over lore is stupid considering how subjective it is, but the kind of stupidity that is being displayed by people making demonstrably false claims REALLY bugs me.

Eh, it provides an interesting sideshow for the continued deluge of tears from the playerbase that simultaneously wants their spess mehrines to be the biggest toughest baddest badasses who are the bestest at everything and have six wounds and 1+ saves and have special rules to represent their ability to spit acid and read the minds of enemy combatants by eating their brains, and also not pay for any of those things because they should be allowed to only have their marines be A0 WS6+ S1 cardboard cutouts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nurgle5 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
But this is where points come in. Against most weapons in the game, Marines are paying more for their defensive abilities compared to most other units. It's better to be sisters because the damage output is so close and the cost makes up for the durability difference and slightly better melee ability of marines. I'm not saying these things have no value, but I do think it's a very small one, and not something you'd choose if you had the option.

I do wonder how the more nebulous stuff is factored into this, like chapter tactics, etc. Are marines more costly, not just for their extra stats, but because they can benefit from the Raven Guard tactics for example, which make them more durable at range and give them access to infiltration for "free"? I realize there are Acts of Faith, but IIRC they only affect one unit in the army and since they need a 2+ roll, aren't guaranteed to happen.

Considering most factions have been having their costs reduced when adding in chapter tactics, I doubt it. Games workshop fully planned codex armies to have an advantage in that form and in the form of stratagems over index armies. Feature, not bug. Thats how you get people to buy the book.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Starting with a sister's stats. +1 S (1pt), +1 T (1 pt), +1 WS (+1 pt), +1 LD (+1 pt). That's four points over the sister stats. Two of those point are for defense (T and LD) and two are for melee attack (S/WS). So if you only want 11 pt marines, I have no problem making them WS4+ S3.

Hopefully you aren't making stupid rookie mistake assuming 1 stat difference is worth 1 pts? Or assuming that +1S is worth always whatever point you would be assigning?

No, some stats are apparently worth 2 pts. But that seems to be roughly what GW values them at.

the_scotsman wrote:

Eh, it provides an interesting sideshow for the continued deluge of tears from the playerbase that simultaneously wants their spess mehrines to be the biggest toughest baddest badasses who are the bestest at everything and have six wounds and 1+ saves and have special rules to represent their ability to spit acid and read the minds of enemy combatants by eating their brains, and also not pay for any of those things because they should be allowed to only have their marines be A0 WS6+ S1 cardboard cutouts.

All I said to start this whole stupid argument was that 2W marines had a lore justification in response to someone who said it didn't, and listed out some lore examples. I didn't realize that was such a controversial statement, nor that I would get garbage and falsehoods spewed at me by people who apparently think 40k is dragon-ball Z.

 Mmmpi wrote:

You do know that in this example you're the comic book guy not us.

I'm not the one who is claiming a howling banshee can kill an entire tactical squad in less than a second.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The only reason we're discussing physics and 40K is because you don't seem to understand writer fiat, fictional universe, and fantasy.

And you don't seem to understand the concept of suspension of disbelief.

 Mmmpi wrote:

That reminds me W1zard, I'm still waiting on those sources. Or are we just to assume that titans work because the authors said they do? Remember, these are your standards I'm holding you to.

Titans work because of adamantium. I already explained that adamantium was the in-lore justification for why titan's don't collapse under their own weight, and provided you a link.

I have yet to see a quote from a lore source from you about the whole "kill 10 marines in less than a second" thing, nor a lore explanation about how it is possible. I doubt I ever will because it's a lie.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Starting with a sister's stats. +1 S (1pt), +1 T (1 pt), +1 WS (+1 pt), +1 LD (+1 pt). That's four points over the sister stats. Two of those point are for defense (T and LD) and two are for melee attack (S/WS). So if you only want 11 pt marines, I have no problem making them WS4+ S3.

Hopefully you aren't making stupid rookie mistake assuming 1 stat difference is worth 1 pts? Or assuming that +1S is worth always whatever point you would be assigning?

+1 WS and +1 Toughness def worth the 1pt each - maybe a bit more, the +1 LD and +1 St are not as good but still useful - likely 1/2 pt each. Of course Sisters aren't getting Chapter Tactics till at least Autumn, if then and have only a couple of (but good) stratagems.

Oh and they get a near worthless Deny the Witch on a D6.

On a more expansive note Marines also get loads of flexibility with weapon loads, a massive mountain of alt units and vehicles including Superheavies, Artillery and Flyers.

"flexibility with weapon loads"

Highly overcosted flexibility. Therefore, mostly useless flexibility.

Stats can't be broken down individually. Models have to be priced as an entire entity for the most part. But carry on, by all means.

W1zard

You might want to reread my posts I addressed all of your points in them a couple times each.

Until then, continue wasting your time.

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Starting with a sister's stats. +1 S (1pt), +1 T (1 pt), +1 WS (+1 pt), +1 LD (+1 pt). That's four points over the sister stats. Two of those point are for defense (T and LD) and two are for melee attack (S/WS). So if you only want 11 pt marines, I have no problem making them WS4+ S3.

Hopefully you aren't making stupid rookie mistake assuming 1 stat difference is worth 1 pts? Or assuming that +1S is worth always whatever point you would be assigning?

+1 WS and +1 Toughness def worth the 1pt each - maybe a bit more, the +1 LD and +1 St are not as good but still useful - likely 1/2 pt each. Of course Sisters aren't getting Chapter Tactics till at least Autumn, if then and have only a couple of (but good) stratagems.

Oh and they get a near worthless Deny the Witch on a D6.

On a more expansive note Marines also get loads of flexibility with weapon loads, a massive mountain of alt units and vehicles including Superheavies, Artillery and Flyers.

Well chapter tactics etc GW values as 0.

Anyway point is by simply adding all the stat differences and giving +X points leads to bad result. That's exactly the kind of noob design style that leads to bad units. If GW uses that then by dear god no wonder 40k is broken mess. Next they will think it's possible to create formula that creates perfect point value.

Adding h2h stats to model that isn't generally good in h2h isn't good. If you price +1A same for somebody with S1 WS6+ as you would to S10 WS2+ with D6 and -4 AP it will lead +1A being too expensive. Similarly adding S and A for somebody with M4 is going to end up in bad idea. and trying to do everything will lead in overpriced junk. and having good stats for both will be worth nothing if your weapons/special rules don't match.

Synergy&uses.

Also, your 'source' was a paragraphy that said things are made of adamantium, including titans. Thats...not really an explanation.

I actually provided sources. Go look them up. Where are your sources again? Which book had a space marine ripping off tank turret?

I disagree that h2h stats on a model that isn't great at h2h is worthless.

Consider Rangers in cover and Marines in cover. Both are hard to shift with shooting. Against the rangers, a SoB squad of equal numbers, or even a Guardsmen squad of slightly greater numbers can shift the Rangers easily via Assault. They cannot shift the Marines that way unless they *greatly* outnumber them.

So, if your marines are in cover trading shots with Sisters or Guardsmen <12" away for a couple rounds, is it really accurate to say their CC stats did nothing? Sure, they didn't actually apply them directly to dice rolls, but did it not impact the game?

(As for the Titans made of Adamantium, how does that cover the squared/cubed problem? Unless I'm missing a gakton of lift on every Titan, they'd only be functional when walking on surfaces made of Adamantium.)

The fact that people DON'T let your unit make it to CC is a strength, not a weakness.

I disagree with the idea that stats have a fixed price. How much costs BS for a genestealer? Does 1W extra cost the same for a 1W modelor a 28W model? Is +1T for a 5p model as valuable as the same up grade for a 500 point model?

I disagree with the fact that +1L costs 1 point for marines, for a couple of reasons: First, they are units that benefit for MSU they have ATSKNF, something thst makes leadership less valuable in the fringe cases where they need to take a test.
The same happens with S and Ws, they are more valuable for assault marines, veterans, berzerkers, but for devastators, tacticals, etc... They are mostly worthless stats. But this is a problem with how GW cost things. A bolter devastator shouldn cost the same as a bolter assault marine because they make different use of their statline.