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Karol wrote:
But units in 40 are mostly tokens. It doesn't really mater that much if you would have one big base for 10 marines with 10w or a squads of separate 10 models. The only thing that happens, because of number of models in warhammer is slower game play and more random spread of rolls. Which in the the end means that the really good armies are able to ignore the random, with stats or rules. w40k is mostly a target priority game and some random rolling, while for other games you have to do more specific stuff, like throw smoke so your med trooper gets to heal your downed LMG dude. Most of the combos I have seen in w40k are unintentional.

If you take away individual movement then all you have is a large scale game of Epic. That would be gak. Epic was fun because you could literally field a whole chapter, which made that game interesting, big armies with titans you could forgo individual movement.

I think 9th edition will be near-perfect, just like how 4th edition was the best version of 3rd edition.

My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.


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quentra wrote:
I feel people are overlooking the simplest combination: Core rules + Battlescribe (or the legendary GW official army builder app). I mean, a game lasts four hours. I don't know a phone/tablet that can't handle an open pdf for 4 hours. Or barring that, remember to bring a charger to the place you're playing at.

I have literally never encountered and issue that wasn't solved by the above setup. I don't even need crap like codexes and FAQs and gak, it's all automatically updated on Battlescribe and for specifics of something like Falling Back or Piling In, a quick look at the core book resolves it. Easy AF.

I played an entire tournament yesterday without opening a book. I printed out everything and played.

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

quentra wrote:
I feel people are overlooking the simplest combination: Core rules + Battlescribe (or the legendary GW official army builder app). I mean, a game lasts four hours. I don't know a phone/tablet that can't handle an open pdf for 4 hours. Or barring that, remember to bring a charger to the place you're playing at.

I have literally never encountered and issue that wasn't solved by the above setup. I don't even need crap like codexes and FAQs and gak, it's all automatically updated on Battlescribe and for specifics of something like Falling Back or Piling In, a quick look at the core book resolves it. Easy AF.

I played an entire tournament yesterday without opening a book. I printed out everything and played.

You have kind of hit the nail on the head about why right there.

You can teach the game to a 5 year old.

I dont think this game is too complicated, it requires too many books sure, but its the LACK of complexity that I dont like about 8th, its too simple, not dumbed down per say, but lacks the complexity I enjoy in a wargame, thats why I am mainly a 30k player, for all of 7ths faults I still think its a better system (for me).

I am hopeful though that 8th will turn into the game I enjoy, a few changes to how vehicles work and other issues and I will come back... or if they bloody fix Deathwing!

 Peregrine wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Meanwhile 40k is a full on combined arms wargame, with a focus on groundcombat.

It really isn't. 40k has models of infantry and tanks and aircraft, but rules-wise they're all the same. There's no meaningful conceptual difference between an IG Thunderbolt and a Raven Guard Predator, except that one has a minimum movement distance that never really matters. Both have a similar stat line, both have a -1 penalty against incoming fire, both can shoot in all directions, etc. The tank and the fighter jet are just two different aesthetic options. And 40k doesn't incorporate any combined-arms strategy. Infantry can deliver high-end firepower, tanks can hold objectives, spotting and suppressing fire and such don't matter at all. From a strategic point of view which unit type you take depends entirely on calculating the math of how efficient it is for its point cost, not combined arms tactics. Some armies have tanks as their most overpowered option, some have infantry.

Yeah, I mean it's not like the flyer:
1) can only pivot 90 degrees before moving.
2) Must move, and therefore suffers -1 to hit, while a predator can stay still (hardly "never really matters" when you're 25% less effective out the gate)
3) Can fall back from an assault and still shoot
4) Can't be assaulted except by other models with Fly
5) Can't charge
6) Can't hold/score an objective, ever.

Oh, and the Predator doesn't get -1 to hit because Space Marine chapter tactics don't apply to their tanks.

But yeah, those are all minor differences, amirite? I mean, it's not like my Slaanesh army can silence a predator just by putting a Fiend in base contact with it all game, while a Thunderbolt would be a huge, near insurmountable threat vulnerable only to smite and a single winged daemon prince. There's absolutely no difference at all.

But units in 40 are mostly tokens. It doesn't really mater that much if you would have one big base for 10 marines with 10w or a squads of separate 10 models. The only thing that happens, because of number of models in warhammer is slower game play and more random spread of rolls. Which in the the end means that the really good armies are able to ignore the random, with stats or rules. w40k is mostly a target priority game and some random rolling, while for other games you have to do more specific stuff, like throw smoke so your med trooper gets to heal your downed LMG dude. Most of the combos I have seen in w40k are unintentional.

I don't agree at all, I have seen many games of 40k being decided by few misplaced models. The difference becomes very obvious when watching a game where one person is careful about their movements and the other isn't, it's huge.

To offer a compromise between X Wing and 40k, have either if you played Battlefleet Gothic?

It's freaking awesome!

It's very much following the fluff of 40k, but has super fun ship to ship combat. The models are impossible to find now, but they're littlarry just eye candy. I made base templates (with orientation markers, ship names etc), printed them on cardstock, and played the game. Would I like to have a proper Necron fleet? Hells yes! But it makes due for now.

It is an incredibly simple system. You're not thinking of complexity, you're thinking of bloat, which as it stands is still less than 7th.

It's really not at all a complicated game; it just makes us all hide too much information in our little book of secrets, which makes opposing armies feel complicated when we're trying to learn them all mid game. Nothing in the game is really all that complicated or hard to remember; we're just mostly exposed to it at the point when we should already know what enemy models do in the game.

 Grimdakka wrote:
I think 9th edition will be near-perfect, just like how 4th edition was the best version of 3rd edition.

Hi-five!!! 4th really was excellent.


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 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

A 5 year old huh? Sweet! I'm 4 years away!

I won't touch 8th edition because it's not complex enough. I miss older rules that we're scrapped. As do the majority of my friends.

If it gets even more dumbed down I will toss my models.

When I was a kid around 13 the rules were easy to remember and understand, I don't think that I would enjoy playing with someone who isn't litterate enough to memorize most of the rules they play with.

I'm not a fan of more people playing if it means that it becomes less tactical.

I'm currently disgustied with the stupidity of it being overly simplistic, it's already easy to understand for competent children.

We don't need to make it more accessible for people that aren't litterate.

phydaux wrote:
Not overly complicated. in fact if anything it has been too dumbed down to allow it to appeal to younger kids.. The problem is that the rule books are poorly written & organized.

I honestly think that a decent game designer with some experience as a layout editor could "fix" 8th in under a week of work.

Poorly organized rulebooks has been the bane of the hobby since I started. Having to remember where they have this or that special rule, is it before the lore, before the profiles, after the unit profiles but before the weapon summary? The BRB was written out decently in I think last edition. Fluff for first half, rules for second, but this new book... gak it's all over the place.

But theres the money.
Or companies think there it is, look at rts games on PC, and the dumbing down there.
8th ed difficulty compared to what they did with C&C is like monecular genetics compared to the 1x1

The Allfather wrote:
We don't need to make it more accessible for people that aren't litterate.

40k currently has a ruleset for pre-schoolers. Most tactics and maneuvre revolves around buff auras and buckets of dice to kill anything.


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It's not bad if you don't want to think too much

 Thargrim wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Ditch the hardbacks and have proper digital products updated regularly. Broken record, but the format is holding the game back in a major way.

I do prefer the days of 20-25$ softback codex books, back then I bought codexes for armies I didn't play...I just bought them for the artwork and lore (40$ is too much for me). Digital however...for tabletop gaming...I hate it. I can't count on my phone or whatever to stay charged long enough for a full gaming session. To me it's no less clunky, it might save storage space, but honestly I like buying physical things and items...thats what this hobby is about anyways using physical components on the table, otherwise we'd be playing digital versions of these games entirely, like BB2 which is a good game...but a totally different experience than handling the rules in person.

I cannot agree more. Although I'm sure that I've just developed an addiction to "codex air", and flipping through the books mid-game gets me that fix.

Digital leaves me wanting.

Yep - give me a hardback codex anytime

BattleScribe is good for army lists using the latest points values, but I want my rules on the table with my miniatures

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

As much as I love Battlescribe, a codex in hand is worth 2 on the phone.

I wouldn't say it's becoming more complicated, they're just fixing holes & cost adjustment for the game to run even remotely close to balance.

I taught the basics of the game to my 4 year old nephew and he picked up to hit/wound/save mechanic pretty easily. Other than that he basically understands the game and has had fun the 2 times we've played so far.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?

People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

This is horrible to someone that wants a tactical game.

 Formosa wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?

People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

Going by the metric of their incredible economic success, record profits and gigantic boost in the value of their shares, I'd say for GW it is far and away the most successful edition. It's got more players and is generating more revenue than any previous edition. If by 'success' you mean 'do I enjoy it', that's up to each person's preferences and is at the end of the day pretty meaningless.

I really enjoyed 8th edition when it was just the Index books because everything felt balanced towards each other. Since the release of the codex books there has been codex creep but overall it has made the game better. You do need a level of complexity in a war game otherwise it is boring. Has 8th become too complex again? Absolutely not! I would go so far as to say it is about right for what it should be. We don't want a return to 7th but likewise we don't want too simple. 8th edition is a good system that just needs GW to make certain tweaks.

 Thargrim wrote:
8th is a big step in the right direction from 7th. Honestly to me 8th seems actually playable without pulling my hair out. Whether or not it is enjoyable though....whole other thing there. I honestly prefer there not being chapter rules, or little special rules and things that add up like that. AoS is starting to suffer from the same thing with 6 or so nighthaunt allegiance things that you have to keep in mind at all times.

Honestly this is an issue that has plagued GW games for years. As i've said in the past, this is why blood bowl was probably the best game GW has ever made, it doesn't suffer from these problems.

This is actually kind of what i meant to begin with.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
My five year old son can play 8th ed. There is no way he could play 7th.

He can also play X-wing, but we don't play any of the cards, FAQ rules, and other more complicated rules.

Battletech Alphastrike is also easy for him to play.

My point is I know of THREE games that have rulesets I can explain to a 5 year old. 8th ed is one of them. I have no idea where all this vitriol lately against 8th is coming from, it blows my mind honestly.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. 8th is like the most popular edition of 40k of all time and is a massive success, people have reacted very positively to the changes at all levels of the game. There is a vocal minority you hear screaming about how it's no good, rest assured you will never see these people happy about it. They play the game to complain.

8th is the most popular edition ever eh? Can you prove that ?

A massive success ? Can you prove that? Can you prove that as the only marketed edition that is purely down to the rules?

People have reacted positively to the rules? Well that’s demonstably false, reactions have been mixed, leaning to the positive, but certainly not “at all levels of the game”

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

We want a better game, we want the issues to be ironed out and to quote myself

“I Think 8th will eventually be the game I want to play, I feel like it’s still in the beta stages and given time it will develop into a good and well rounded game, then I will come back to it”

Hardly the screaming of a person who “plays to complain”

Going by the metric of their incredible economic success, record profits and gigantic boost in the value of their shares, I'd say for GW it is far and away the most successful edition. It's got more players and is generating more revenue than any previous edition. If by 'success' you mean 'do I enjoy it', that's up to each person's preferences and is at the end of the day pretty meaningless.

Given they have never marketed before, how incredible is that success really, all we can say is that advertising works, a real shocker there, we don’t know how popular previous Ed’s could have been if the had had the same level of marketing rather than a CEO that appeared to be anti consumer.

Has it got more players? Maybe, maybe not, how many were driven away by the aforementioned anti consumer practices, how many have returned, why have they returned, how many are new? The only answer we ever get is “lots” cos “reasons” truth is we don’t know, so it’s disengenuous to claim we have more players than ever, when we don’t even know how many we have had each ED, we also lack info on the cost to profit ratio (as they don’t do a proper earnings breakdown every quarter).

Long story short we don’t actually know what is causing the upsurge in popularity for 8th, I put it down to excellent marketing of a mediocre ruleset and a softening of the anti consumer nature GW has been notorious for, long may it continue and again, I hope they continue to flesh out the lacklustre rules in some important areas.

And yes it’s generating more revenue that previous Ed’s... but it’s also a lot more expensive than previous Ed’s,

 LunarSol wrote:
It's really not at all a complicated game; it just makes us all hide too much information in our little book of secrets, which makes opposing armies feel complicated when we're trying to learn them all mid game. Nothing in the game is really all that complicated or hard to remember; we're just mostly exposed to it at the point when we should already know what enemy models do in the game.

This is very true.

Back in maybe 4th or 5th you had maybe a page of USR in the BRB and they'd be present in all the books in some way. Sure they would have other rules but it generally wasn't as big a change in my eyes.

For instance some sub-factions that allow people to double shoot if they stand still or advance and charge with re-rolls to charge and on and on. Some of these rules are fairly big and fairly game-changing and if i haven't read your codex i won't know you can do that esp. with the 4 pages of stratagems.

Then there's the issue of book layout that someone mentioned. I dunno who designed the layout of the book but they should've been fired.

Perhaps i'm also just not used to how 8th ed 40k handles things. It's miles better than 7th no doubt but as i said it seems to be ramping up the rules bloat.

 Formosa wrote:
Given they have never marketed before, how incredible is that success really, all we can say is that advertising works, a real shocker there, we don’t know how popular previous Ed’s could have been if the had had the same level of marketing rather than a CEO that appeared to be anti consumer.

Has it got more players? Maybe, maybe not,

That you can claim this is baffling. Yes, it's not like we've got a checklist to know down to the man but there's no way we have less players than any previous edition. It doesn't matter who they are, whether they left or came back or why they play, nor does it matter that the rules are kinda crap (my own view incidentally, it's just not too crap to stop me playing), GW is selling stuff through the roof. I doubt the player base has remained he same and suddenly we're seeing tens of thousands of people starting 2nd and 3rd armies. We're seeing tens of thousands of new players.

 Formosa wrote:
Long story short we don’t actually know what is causing the upsurge in popularity for 8th, I put it down to excellent marketing of a mediocre ruleset and a softening of the anti consumer nature GW has been notorious for, long may it continue and again, I hope they continue to flesh out the lacklustre rules in some important areas.

But there is a huge upsurge. The marketing vs non marketing thing doesn't matter when viewing how successful an edition is. You can't exclude 8th from the equation because GW have done more to market it. They've marketed, and it's their most successful edition. Not their best in terms of gameplay, but their most successful.

Rapid fire should be a Marine rule period. I think GW has got themselves in a box with Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons, Pistols....blah blah.

make weapons shoot 1 or 2 or 3 times...just call it what it is.

Make super characters hit like a super character...not make some militia dude roll more dice

8th can be the best ever but get rid of the reroll dope high that GW is on, LOTs of less dice, better terrain and do something with USR and Strategems.

Honestly without Strategems I would be soooo bored with the game....Wait....why is that? Is it a crutch that has gotten out of hand???

 Formosa wrote:

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

Alright well if you want to play this game, you prove your statements first before asking for proof from mine, then we can proceed.

You'll struggle, but that's understandable. You don't have realistic standards for anything, so let's see if you can meet your own first then you can have a seat at the table of rational thought. I won't hold my breath.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

There is a vocal minority, but it’s the white knights, not the detractors, sure a couple of the detractors have said they don’t like the game, but they are in no way as unbearable as the white knights who refuse to see any fault and lack the ability to think critically.

Alright well if you want to play this game, you prove your statements first before asking for proof from mine, then we can proceed.

You'll struggle, but that's understandable. You don't have realistic standards for anything, so let's see if you can meet your own first then you can have a seat at the table of rational thought. I won't hold my breath.

Requiring hard data for assertions such as "there are more people playing now, and it is because of 8th edition" is hardly unrealistic. We can make guesses, but until GW hires a marketing firm to conduct research to find out how many people play, why they play, what their thoughts on 8th are, and how much they spend/have spent on 8th and prior editions, to name a few, we can't know for sure.