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Martel732 wrote: Hold out for Dec Chapter Approved. If marines get no help there, give up on them. I know I will.
This, and the fact that I almost tabled my DE friend with GK is all that's giving me hope for marines right now. (he's bad with DE, doesn't have an optimized list at all)
I think one of the overlooked points is that Marines is one of the cheapest armies to build dollars wise.
You can get yourself a viable 1500 point army, and infantry-heavy gunline, on just 7 box sets. That's for 2 HQs, 4 Troops and three Heavies out of just 7 boxes.
Any 1500 point Guard army you're looking at 14 box sets, and that's INCLUDING three tanks to eat up points
Martel732 wrote: Hold out for Dec Chapter Approved. If marines get no help there, give up on them. I know I will.
This, and the fact that I almost tabled my DE friend with GK is all that's giving me hope for marines right now. (he's bad with DE, doesn't have an optimized list at all)
I would still like to know how, or at least what list you used.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Martel732 wrote: Hold out for Dec Chapter Approved. If marines get no help there, give up on them. I know I will.
This, and the fact that I almost tabled my DE friend with GK is all that's giving me hope for marines right now. (he's bad with DE, doesn't have an optimized list at all)
I would still like to know how, or at least what list you used.
could be as simple as his dice where hot and he was lucky with his saves
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Martel732 wrote: Hold out for Dec Chapter Approved. If marines get no help there, give up on them. I know I will.
This, and the fact that I almost tabled my DE friend with GK is all that's giving me hope for marines right now. (he's bad with DE, doesn't have an optimized list at all)
I would still like to know how, or at least what list you used.
This is mainly what I own as opposed to most GK lists.
That's what I had. Started with the a strike squad and purgataion squad in each rhino, voldus was behind one plus I had the ven dread on the field too. Everything else was in deep strike. After that game I removed the purgataion squad and 2 rhino's for a LR crusader. 1 less drop, more bolter shots and almost as must S6+ shots.
My friend with a very poor list to be honest, this is from memory as well.
Reavers [6 PL, 88pts] . Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
Scourges [5 PL, 150pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Blast Pistol
+ Heavy Support +
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance
+ Flyer +
Razorwing Jetfighter [8 PL, 155pts]: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Dark Lances: 2x Dark Lance
I couldn't really remember everything but still. I know he's my friend, but it's just a terrible list lol
I know I almost tabled him and I only lost because I didn't Gate my guy to the proper location. But him having so many dark lances instead of disintegrator cannons really beefed up my survivability. All in all, against this list if I had one more squad or was able to cast powers twice I think I would have tabled him. But he doesn't have a very good list, frankly someone that adores DE and has played for years would scoff at this list.
Also yes my dice were pretty hot
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I love psilencers instead of psycannons. Weight of fire and d3 is so great!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the brother captain had fury of deimos and the ancient had the banner of refining flame
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/11 19:15:03
Well GK are naturally good against an army that doesn't have high T high armor saves. Because their entire firebase is built around ap0 str 4 shooting. This is the best way to kill DE.
Realistically a marine army could build against DE and do really well too. Marines anti infantry ability is pretty good with things like scout bikes and aggressors. These weapons are just so useless against anything with an armor save though - that it can't be done in a TAC list.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
So Marines in general match up well versus one of the most competitive armies that is what you are telling me.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
I would love to watch either of you face a real Eldar soup list with good Dark Eldar (Venomes + Kabalites), Dark Reapers, Hemlocks...
Pretty funny when marines are hitting Hemlocks on 5s or 6s and eating 2d3 auto-hit, strength infinity, ap-4 2 damage per Hemlock. Or when the Alaitoc Reapers DS into cover, get Guided, and annihilate anything marines.
Real Eldar lists are freaking brutal right now. Suggesting that Grey Knights - in any way - counter them is ridiculous. Sure, deep strike in and try to shoot a venom. You need to survive the anti-DS shooting from the reapers, of course, and forgetting that if you want to rely on a clutch stratagem they'll just vect it.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I couldn't really remember everything but still. I know he's my friend, but it's just a terrible list lol
thanks for sharing the list. Much appreciated
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Insectum7 wrote: A guided 10 man Reaper squad kills 6 marines in cover. Wooooow.
Well in case of some armies 6 dudes could be anything between 1/5th and 1/4th of the whole army not counting big based stuff or tanks.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Just the strange pathology of xenos units considered being so amazing while marine units are considered meh. Like, Reapers are a great unit, and Guide is a great power, but Devastators are likewise excellent, and Chapter Master is like Guide all the time for everybody within range. It's strange to me.
I think there's a heartbreaking, fundamental problem between the statline of a Tactical Marine and how a Space Marine is portrayed in the fluff. There's simply nothing superhuman about them.
sphynx wrote: I think there's a heartbreaking, fundamental problem between the statline of a Tactical Marine and how a Space Marine is portrayed in the fluff. There's simply nothing superhuman about them.
Normal marine statline cannot be saved. Primaris statline is a great improvement, though unfortunately GW cannot restrain themselves from writing cheap multidamage weapons, thus basically invalidating this improvement.
sphynx wrote: I think there's a heartbreaking, fundamental problem between the statline of a Tactical Marine and how a Space Marine is portrayed in the fluff. There's simply nothing superhuman about them.
You'll have to remember that a normal human is S3 T3 etc...
"Well in case of some armies 6 dudes could be anything between 1/5th and 1/4th of the whole army not counting big based stuff or tanks."
10 Reapers is close to 1/5 and 1/4th of an army without discounting the big based stuff or tanks.
"Eldar Vehicles get Chapter Tactics but Iron Hands vehicles don’t. Let’s start with the ridiculousness of that."
Most people agree, yes, that should be fixed.
"I think there's a heartbreaking, fundamental problem between the statline of a Tactical Marine and how a Space Marine is portrayed in the fluff. There's simply nothing superhuman about them."
There is a *lot* that's superhuman about them. It's just that they go up against:
-Super space ninja elves
-Super soccer hooligans
-Super swarmy bugs
-Super big terrifying bugs
-Super indestructable robot aliens
And when they do go against humans, its:
-Super numerous army of doods
Marines don't feel "super" because everything in the game is "super" in some way. So either they need to be OP or you get players thinking they aren't "super".
Due to the math of 8th ed, they are the reverse of super. They are a liability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Just the strange pathology of xenos units considered being so amazing while marine units are considered meh. Like, Reapers are a great unit, and Guide is a great power, but Devastators are likewise excellent, and Chapter Master is like Guide all the time for everybody within range. It's strange to me.
Devastators are not excellent. Their equipment cost alone prevents this. You assume the answer in your premises.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/13 02:29:48
sphynx wrote: I think there's a heartbreaking, fundamental problem between the statline of a Tactical Marine and how a Space Marine is portrayed in the fluff. There's simply nothing superhuman about them.
You'll have to remember that a normal human is S3 T3 etc...
And carries a str 7 gun that does 2 wounds when it overloads and there is like 10 of them in multiple units, on top of the mortar and lascannon guys. The platforms resilience only matter, if the platform is either invunerable or super vunerable. The middle does not count for nothing as far as checking what is best.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Insectum7 wrote: Guard, and lots of other infantry carry anti-tank weaponry. Do you want marines to be as tough as tanks? Because that's a non starter.
The difference between T3 and T4 matter in an infantry skirmish. They matter less in an open field tank conflict. As they should.
Of course they should be vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry. The problem is that a 3+ save is just generally worth lot less than it used to be.
The problem is that there aren't really ANY weapons of any class that Marines are more durable against than Guardsmen.
A single Guardsmen with a Lasgun kills 1.3 pts of Marines in a shooting attack, but only 1pt of Guardsmen. So in small arms skirmishes Marines still lose point for point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I ran a simulation based on average rolls of 10 marines with Bolters Vs 32 Guardsmen with Lasguns. That's 130pts of Marines Vs 128pts of Guard.
Assumes both within rapid fire range, and I gave the Marines the first turn to give them an advantage.
The marines are wiped out in turn 5, with 17 Guardsmen still standing.
That's how bad basic marines are.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/13 15:20:25
Bharring wrote: In the open. Engaging toe-to-toe in a fireline. Never attempting to close.
Change any *one* of those 3 things (use cover, force concentration, or get closer), and Marines do actually win the small arms fight.
That said, not by enough, and they lose too much in other ways. So they're worse overall. But Marines do win in some categories.
Absolutely, all very true. I'm not saying the calculation is truly representative of what would happen in a battle, but conversely I've not given Guard an officer to issue FRFSRF or anything like that.
The point is to show how much of a hill Marines have to climb to get an advantage at all.
People have been saying 3+ isn’t any good for editions. At least now you get to 2+ in cover whereas before you got a cover save independent of your armor save. Sure often the cover save was better but 2+ is not bad.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Insectum7 wrote: Guard, and lots of other infantry carry anti-tank weaponry. Do you want marines to be as tough as tanks? Because that's a non starter.
The difference between T3 and T4 matter in an infantry skirmish. They matter less in an open field tank conflict. As they should.
Of course they should be vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry. The problem is that a 3+ save is just generally worth lot less than it used to be.
The problem is that there aren't really ANY weapons of any class that Marines are more durable against than Guardsmen.
A single Guardsmen with a Lasgun kills 1.3 pts of Marines in a shooting attack, but only 1pt of Guardsmen. So in small arms skirmishes Marines still lose point for point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I ran a simulation based on average rolls of 10 marines with Bolters Vs 32 Guardsmen with Lasguns. That's 130pts of Marines Vs 128pts of Guard.
Assumes both within rapid fire range, and I gave the Marines the first turn to give them an advantage.
The marines are wiped out in turn 5, with 17 Guardsmen still standing.
That's how bad basic marines are.
For the most part - people don't care about this argument. Most people want marines to be bad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/13 15:58:51
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
"Most people want marines to be bad."
More people play Marines than play any other faction.
Most people want Marines to not suck. And most people think they're subpar right now. But most people don't want 2W Marines with Bladestorm or 13ppm Intercessors. That's not not "bad". That's stupidly OP.
