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 Corennus wrote:
So you're saying all marines except HQ should have 2 wounds.......interesting.

Would certainly make Tacticals more viable and an alternative again to Intercessors.

But I think Scouts should still be 1 wound. they're not fully inducted yet.

Yes, that is basically what I am saying. All current 1W MEQs should have 2Ws. So Tacs, Assault, Devs and their Chaos equivalents.
I am also saying Terminators and Bikes should have 3W. Assault Bikes 4W.

HQs already have plenty of wounds as well as Character protection, so they are fine as-is.
I agree, Scouts should stay at 1W, Scout Bikes at 2W

I am also ok with Necron Immortals having 2W, but due to their RP rule and vastly "better than Bolters" weapon options, they should be no less than 20ppm for this.
But I am also ok with Immortals staying as they are at 1W. Afterall, they do not have layered armour in the same way as a Marine. Their "armour" is their body.
So I'm 50/50 on Immortals. Either way Necron Warriors could drop a point or two. But this is all for a different thread

-

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rerolls rerolls rerolls.

And more big guns.

Which none of those armies have? Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Mechanicus have the same access to rerolls and Guard can get them just being Cadian (reroll for the Blast weapons on Catachan might be better for you. Math was done elsewhere as far as I know).

Not as thoroughly and plentiful, off the top of my head. All to hit, 1s to wound, for potentially everything against anything.

Archons? Autarchs? Dominus? Ya know, the HQ's you're already taking, with the former two being cheaper than Captains?

Meanwhile Cadians get them just for sitting still, which really isn't hard when you ignore LoS and have a lot of range, or even both.

Do they get full re-rolls to hit (not just 1's) and any re-rolls to wound?

Do you get the same in your army without wasting 3CP?

I'll take your avoidance of answering the question as a "no".

More re-rolls are available to SM.

No it really isn't.
Marines currently have:
1. Captains
2. Wisdom Of The Ancient (which is redundant and a bad Strategem)
3. Named Chapter Masters (which you don't use, as that would clearly be too broken for your casual games obviously)
4. The Chapter Master Strategem, which is a whopping 3CP.

All those are bad outside the named Chapter Masters and Captains. So we can actually call it two sources of bonuses to hit, as much as you want to protest. I almost can't wait to see the follow up post on why Wisdom Of The Ancients is so great from you. You love defending horrid balance.
For wounding you have the Lt. and Killshot, the latter of which being horribly specific to the point it almost doesn't exist thanks to Rule Of Three.

So what do other armies have outside all the bonuses I named? Let's take a look.
1. AdMech have the Dominus (Captain), Cawl (named Chapter Master), Benediction Of The Omnissiah, and the Protector Doctrina Imperative. So the Dunecrawlers, on top of not receiving negative bonuses moving, get the same generic HQ dudes providing rerolls and don't have some stupidly specific Strategems. Then of course Benediction isn't hard to activate. There's a clear winner here whether you want to admit it or not. Rerolling to sound only matters if you can hit, and there's a clear value to modifying your hit rolls instead of an always varying Wound roll.
2. Eldar once again have the Autarch (Captain), Linked Fire, and Runes Of Witnessing. There's no full reroll, but Fire Prisms can fire twice without any penalty if they barely moved, making the bonuses for Autarchs and Runes Of Witnessing to come into play. More importantly is Linked Fire, as Wave Serpents don't need to even be near each other. You get full rerolls and Shred. That's much better than Killshot. Once again we have a clear winner.
3. I don't actually need to go into everything Russes get do I?
4. The only one you're correct on is Dark Eldar. You have Archons and there's some Warlord trait with a reroll of 1 to wound somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
So you're saying all marines except HQ should have 2 wounds.......interesting.

Would certainly make Tacticals more viable and an alternative again to Intercessors.

But I think Scouts should still be 1 wound. they're not fully inducted yet.

Yes, that is basically what I am saying. All current 1W MEQs should have 2Ws. So Tacs, Assault, Devs and their Chaos equivalents.
I am also saying Terminators and Bikes should have 3W. Assault Bikes 4W.

HQs already have plenty of wounds as well as Character protection, so they are fine as-is.
I agree, Scouts should stay at 1W, Scout Bikes at 2W

I am also ok with Necron Immortals having 2W, but due to their RP rule and vastly "better than Bolters" weapon options, they should be no less than 20ppm for this.
But I am also ok with Immortals staying as they are at 1W. Afterall, they do not have layered armour in the same way as a Marine. Their "armour" is their body.
So I'm 50/50 on Immortals. Either way Necron Warriors could drop a point or two. But this is all for a different thread

-

There in lies your scale problem the moment you introduce more wounds as even a concept.
Do Orks get two wounds? Necron Immortals and therefore we scale up for everyone else like Wraiths and Lychguard and Praetorians? Thunderwolves get another wound?

Just slabbing on wounds doesn't scale. At all.

"but Fire Prisms can fire twice without any penalty if they barely moved"
If by "without penalty" you mean "with penalty", sure.

As for Fire Prisms firing twice, you should run the numbers on what one Fire Prism does compared to one Pred. Or per point. A Pred does a lot more firing once than a Fire Prism does firing twice at the appropriate target.

The stratagem changes things, when used. But it can't always be used, and isn't free.

"More importantly is Linked Fire, as Wave Serpents don't need to even be near each other."
Of course they don't. Because it doesn't impact Serpents. It's a stratagem that *only* impacts Fire Prisms. No other CWE anything.

"You get full rerolls and Shred."
Umm, what is Shred giving that "full rerolls" isn't? And that's only by using a stratagem. And then only for Fire Prisms. And then only against a single target a turn.

I think you need to take a second look at the CWE codex. Your opponents aren't playing right.

Ice_can wrote:
[If someone really wants 2 wounds base for marines, try playing against Deathguard with an additional wound across the board and then tell me it's not game breaking. .

I played. With my friend. We are both terribly unhappy with the state of our armies (of my six, three are loyal marines, and he has all of chaos space marines armies) and so we decided to test some features, including marines with two wounds.

Two games, literally three weeks ago, I play with simple space marines, one for the custodians, one for the adeptus mechanicus. A friend had twenty-five models of plague marines in three rhinos and another staff.

What can I say? Two wins (AC and AM), one draw and one defeat (SM).. Plague marines became noticeably tenacious, yes. But they did not become indestructible. I would say that they turned from a fan unit into working horses. They just began to work out their cost.

Also, yay, Runes of Witnessing. CWE can take 2 primary HQs and pay 2 CP a turn to get the same aura buffs as an SM that takes 1 primary and 1 secondary HQ and pays no CP.

Weren't you complaining that the ChapterMaster didn't count because you had to pay 3 CP to have him? But 2 CP every turn means nothing?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There in lies your scale problem the moment you introduce more wounds as even a concept.
Do Orks get two wounds? Necron Immortals and therefore we scale up for everyone else like Wraiths and Lychguard and Praetorians? Thunderwolves get another wound?

Just slabbing on wounds doesn't scale. At all.

It does scale, actually. Why else do Terminators and Bikes get 100% more wounds than a regular marine?
Because even GW realized that the system in 8th allows a scale of wounds. They just didn't go far enough and Marines are paying the price for their hesitance.
My proposal would make Termies and Bikes only have 50% more wounds than a regular Marine, thus make the "scale" more appropriate.

And yes, you need to add a wound to Praetorians and Lych Guard *if* you do the same to Immortals. That should be assumed. Which is why I stated I would be ok with Immorals staying at 1W. The interaction with RP makes adding wound to Necron require heavier cost increases.

Orks having 2W works for the bigger ones (so NOT Boyz). I believe Nobs already have 2W. Orks are also meant to be more plentiful, but easier to kill.
This is a good example of wounds representing "stamina" or "discipline" rather that just "bulk". A Marine is far more likely to fight on when wounded due to their training, than some random Ork who just thinks "fightin' is fun".
It's the exact reason (or at least the only logical one) for why Eldar Aspect Exarchs have more wounds that their squad members. They literally are the same but the Exarchs have more experience and discipline, ergo they don't die to a single wound and can muster the strength to fight on.

Remember that GW has never defined losing the last wound as the model being "dead". In fact in prior editions they made it clear that the model could still be alive but is either wounded too grievously to keep fighting, simply knocked out, or is just unable to fight.
The model is "slain" in that they can't take part in the battle (i.e. game) any longer.

-

"It's the exact reason (or at least the only logical one) for why Eldar Aspect Exarchs have more wounds that their squad members. They literally are the same "things' but the Exacts have more experience and discipline, ergo they don't die to a single wound and can muster the strength to fight on."

Exarchs are not Aspect Warriors. They are nothing like Marine Seargents.

Exarchs are suits of armor, currently occupied by the body of the last Eldar whos soul merged with it. It is not just a more experienced Aspect Warrior.

Whether they should have 2W can be debated. Previously, they had a 3+ armor save regardless of aspect instead of 2W.

A Marine Sarge is a Marine. Same kit. Same physical body. Just more experience. An Exarch is not.

So you are saying Exarchs have +1W because the ARMOUR is better? So...just like standard SM armour?
Shouldn't that mean Exarchs would have +1 saving throw, not +1W?
Because if you are saying the armour gives +1 wound, I'd argue Power armour is better than regular Aspect armour all day, thus supporting my stance that it should give +1W.
And yes, they are a more experienced Aspect warrior because they become merged with the .... experiences ... of the previous wearers of the suit.

But whether it's the armour or the discipline gained from lifetimes of battle, Exarchs have +1W for reasons that SHOULD follow through to Marines.
So we have not only a fluff reason to make them 2W, but it helps balance then in game too. +1W is a WIN-WIN, as is minimum 2atx for basic Marines

I firmly believe GW had this thought when designing 8E, but chickened out in altering their golden goose and created a lame duck that is the Primaris line.
That sentence was poultry in motion.

-

Eldar Exarchs have always been a bit special. In earlier editions this was represented by a bump in weapon skill and ballistic skill. However, they were just as durable as the rest of the squad members (with the exception that Banshee and Dire Avenger Exarchs were upgraded to a 3+ armor save).

It baffles me that this was changed in 8th edition to give them 2 wounds and keep the same ballistic skill / weapon skill as their peers. It makes no sense, adds meaningless book keeping and has a relatively minor impact on the game. Its just bizarre. Aspect Warrior Exarchs should absolutely have 1 wound.

I think the true strength of xenos is ignoring rerolls and still being witheringly effective. I hate the reroll scheme for marines because the babysitters are expensive and mostly useless.

"So you are saying Exarchs have +1W because the ARMOUR is better? So...just like standard SM armour?"
Exarchs used to have a 3+, and that felt more fitting. I always shrug a little when a Dire Avenger Exarch walks off a boltgun to the face.

That said, you're still thinking of the armor as an inanimate layer atop the Exarch. The soulstone*s* are embedded on the armor, not the body. Further, Soulstone-embedded armor is harder to destroy, and the will to drive the Exarch comes from the soulstones, not the body.

"I'd argue Power armour is better than regular Aspect armour all day,"
You could also argue that the sky is green.
First, Power Armor is certainly stronger as a whole than a Howling Banshee suit of armor. But it's not clear that it's stronger (or weaker) than Striking Scorpion or Shining Spear or Incubi armor.
Then, there's the nature of the armor. Against power armor, you need to destroy the person inside. Against Exarchs, you need to destroy the armor. Typically piercing armor is easier than outright destroying it.

Eternal Warrior was once a way to show that the Phoenix Lords - the extreme conclusion of an Exarch over thousands of years, according to theory - isn't stopped just by bashing the meat inside it a little. It takes more than that. Exarchs haven't had EW, but then they're not as powerful as Phoenix Lords.

"But whether it's the armour or the discipline gained from lifetimes of battle, Exarchs have +1W for reasons that SHOULD follow through to Marines."
Armor: The 2W is what it takes to kill the Exarch's armor. The 1W is what it takes to pierce PA and hurt what's inside. 1W on the Exarch may "kill" the body inside, that may not stop it. A suit of PA isn't destroyed every time it's wearer is killed, but the unit is. An Exarch isn't destroyed every time it's 'wearer' is killed, and neither is the unit.
Discipline gained from lifetimes of battle: SM Sarges may have hundreds of years experience. Exarchs may have thousands. And not necessarily consecutively: even an Exarch who's oldest part is 500 years old could have hundreds of lifetimes. They're nowwhere near the same thing.

I'm not sold on Exarchs being 2W. I'd rather either a 3+ or just fluff acknowledgement and no rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, fluffwise, the CWE beatsticks/combat heroes are Exarchs, not Autarchs. But HeroHammer being what it is, the rules don't reflect this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Eldar Exarchs have always been a bit special. In earlier editions this was represented by a bump in weapon skill and ballistic skill. However, they were just as durable as the rest of the squad members (with the exception that Banshee and Dire Avenger Exarchs were upgraded to a 3+ armor save)."
And Hawks. As in, all the 4+ armor save Exarchs.

They gained their second wound in the 7E Codex, not the 8E Index.

That said, I certainly support 1W Exarchs with no other changes. I'd rather 1W Exarchs with +1 WS/BS, but whatever.

I'll say this: It is very difficult to not talk about fluff when trying to support my proposal.
I completely get that you can justify or disprove just about anything in the fluff.

It's just...even at 10ppm with 1W, Marines still suck compared to two 1W models at 5ppm, regardless of T or armour. At minimum, it only takes 1 shot to kill the Marine, whereas it requires double that for the others.
Statistics aside, that is the real reason Marines suck right now. It takes less firepower to kill them than equal points of lesser unit that spread their durability across multiple models.
This is compounded by their lack of damage output (which would be better if more Marines could like 1-2 turns longer to add their damage output)

Marines are paying for "what if" durability. As in "if they pass their armour" or "if they T makes them harder to wound". When throwing lots of dice, this "what if" durability ends up favoring units that forego actual T and saves for bodies

Here's another funny thing: 2W Marines @15ppm is actually LESS powerful than 1W Marines @10ppm
Here's why: For 30pts, you either get three 1W Marines or two 2W Marines.
The 1W Marines have 3 total wounds that care not about multi-damage weapons, have 3 bolters and more melee attacks
The 2W Marines, while having 4 total wounds, DO care about multi-damage weapons and only have 2 Bolters and less melee attacks.

IMO, either change would be acceptable, but being more durable to small arms fire just seems more acceptable and doesn't create as many head scratching situations like "Why is X now more expensive than a Marine? It has less T and worse Armour". Which could lead to X getting cheaper, and now Marines are too expensive by comparison AGAIN.

-

Consider:
It's just...even at 30ppm with 1W, Dark Reapers still suck compared to two 1W models at 13ppm, regardless of T or armour. At minimum, it only takes 1 shot to kill the Dark Reaper, whereas it requires double that for the others.
Statistics aside, that is the real reason Dark Reapers suck right now. It takes less firepower to kill them than equal points of lesser unit that spread their durability across multiple models.

Or:
Dark Reapers are paying for "what if" fiirepower. As in "if they pass their 3+ hit roll" or "if the S makes them more likely to wound". When throwing lots of dice, this "what if" firepower ends up favoring units that forego actual S and AP for shots

Those statements are just as logically accurate, but are clearly wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd rather field or go up against 3 10-pt Marines than 2 2W 15pt Marines, actually. Not really for balance reasons, though.

At any rate, I thought most people considered Marines to be fine at 11ppm, but undercosted at 10ppm.

Bharring wrote:

Those statements are just as logically accurate, but are clearly wrong.

Horrible example. Reapers have a very good gun, which is why the REAPER is 8ppm, and the GUN is 22ppm.
Marines are paying for their durability, Reapers are paying for the gun.
Marines are paying TOO MUCH for durability that is basically an illusion, while Reapers obviously are worth what they pay for.

Bharring wrote:

I'd rather field or go up against 3 10-pt Marines than 2 2W 15pt Marines, actually. Not really for balance reasons, though.

At any rate, I thought most people considered Marines to be fine at 11ppm, but undercosted at 10ppm.

11ppm for current Marines might be fine with no changes. As-is they are arguably worse than Dire Avengers or Necron Warriors (only comparing these as they are close in points) so being cheaper than these is fair.
My complaint is that Tactical Marines SHOULD NOT BE WORSE than these, or similar choices. Not only because they are friggin Marines, but because they are the template for the Elite, Fast and Heavy choices.

So while making Marines pay for what they are worth is the idea, I believe they should be WORTH more and not just cost less.

-

But trying to show that 2W 15pt Marines are fine because they match up against something else that isn't in the game and hasn't been accepted as fair doesn't really add much.

I'm fine with being cheaper than Dire Avengers (especially as long as the Exarch is free), but why should Marines be *worth* more than a Dire Avenger? Aren't they each equally-elite super troops? Just in different ways?

Bharring wrote:
But trying to show that 2W 15pt Marines are fine because they match up against something else that isn't in the game and hasn't been accepted as fair doesn't really add much.

Granted. It made perfect sense to me, but I see your point about comparing unproven hypotheticals

Bharring wrote:
I'm fine with being cheaper than Dire Avengers (especially as long as the Exarch is free), but why should Marines be *worth* more than a Dire Avenger? Aren't they each equally-elite super troops? Just in different ways?

My fluff response would be that in every story I've even seen involving Marines vs non-Marine is that they are always fewer in number and take a considerable effort to be killed.

But restraining from fluff, I can say it has been this way since I started in 4th and I suspect before. Marines have never been cheap compared to other infantry Troops. They have always been more by at least 2-3ppm, implying that GW wants them to be the "elite" Troops.
This is central to what Marines are, at least from what I've observed.

-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_b-qBTul44

Fairly sure the Marines and Eldar were in about equal number in that.

Fluff has CWE also almost always outnumbered.

As for points, Dire Avengers have usually been 1ppm less than a Marine since 6E at least. They were a bit more ppm in the Index, which is the one exception I can think of. I don't recall Marines ever being more than 1ppm more than DAs. Because DAs are also "elite" troops.

I've done a complete breakdown in another post of all the infantry that need adjustments if we are just going to keep the same stats and adjust points to the Infantry/Kabalites/Firewarriors/battle sister.

Guardians 7 Storms being 6
Dire avengers 9
Tac Marine/CSM (base for all PA units) 10
Necron Warrior 10
Intercessor 15
hormagant 4
termagant 3
Tyranid warrior 17

I might be missing some troops but these are the major offenders.

Off the top of my head here are some other units that need dramatic fixes

Crisis suits 25 base
terminators (includes CSM varients) 26 fully equiped (ad or subtract up to 5 points base based on abilities)
Rhino 52 with storm bolter
Drop pod (20 points + cost 1 command point)
Devilfish 65 base
Chimera 70 Fully equped
Strike squad marine 16 fully equiped
Rubric marine 15 with bolter
Ad mech destroyer 28 base

I remember an edition in which Marines were 15ppm and DA were 12ppm. Can't remember which.
DA's are probably another poor example, especially considering DAs are currently 8ppm, not 12. Their gun, which is obviously better than a Bolter, is 4ppm.

I'd be happy with 10-11ppm Marines as it's fair enough. I'd be happier with 2W Marines as it's more fluffy and makes army lists with lots of Marines far more fun to play against.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've done a complete breakdown in another post of all the infantry that need adjustments if we are just going to keep the same stats and adjust points to the Infantry/Kabalites/Firewarriors/battle sister.

Guardians 7 Storms being 6
Dire avengers 9
Tac Marine/CSM (base for all PA units) 10
Necron Warrior 10
Intercessor 15
hormagant 4
termagant 3
Tyranid warrior 17

I might be missing some troops but these are the major offenders.

Yeah, I can dig those changes. Still sucks for a Marine to just die to 1 failed save, but at least the proportion to the other choice is appropriate.

-

 Galef wrote:
I remember an edition in which Marines were 15ppm and DA were 12ppm. Can't remember which.
DA's are probably another poor example, especially considering DAs are currently 8ppm, not 12. Their gun, which is obviously better than a Bolter, is 4ppm.

I'd be happy with 10-11ppm Marines as it's fair enough. I'd be happier with 2W Marines as it's more fluffy and makes army lists with lots of Marines far more fun to play against.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've done a complete breakdown in another post of all the infantry that need adjustments if we are just going to keep the same stats and adjust points to the Infantry/Kabalites/Firewarriors/battle sister.

Guardians 7 Storms being 6
Dire avengers 9
Tac Marine/CSM (base for all PA units) 10
Necron Warrior 10
Intercessor 15
hormagant 4
termagant 3
Tyranid warrior 17

I might be missing some troops but these are the major offenders.

Yeah, I can dig those changes. Still sucks for a Marine to just die to 1 failed save, but at least the proportion to the other choice is appropriate.

-

It would be fun to play them regardless. They have been a tax every edition I've played. To have them be an asset and accomplish things in games would be amazing. Who cares if they play more like an ork boy than a space marine?

The other thing do consider (for me specifically) is the likelihood of which change might happen.
With Chapter Approved being primarily a method to adjust points, rather than contain massive amount of updated datasheets, it's pretty clear that 2W Marines is the fever dream of a mad man.

I can only hope that the next CA at least makes Marines and Terminators playable in competitive settings by making the points appealing.

-

Bharring wrote:
But trying to show that 2W 15pt Marines are fine because they match up against something else that isn't in the game and hasn't been accepted as fair doesn't really add much.

I'm fine with being cheaper than Dire Avengers (especially as long as the Exarch is free), but why should Marines be *worth* more than a Dire Avenger? Aren't they each equally-elite super troops? Just in different ways?

Because marines are the template for every other slot in the army. Making marine vehicles not pure garbage would help, too, but that seems secondary to me. They've been garbage a long time now.

 Galef wrote:
I remember an edition in which Marines were 15ppm and DA were 12ppm. Can't remember which.

4th edition
Marines had no grenades or pistols and half the cost of their heavy weapon baked into their points - actually worked out 11pts a model if you discounted a full lascannon from an MSU squad.
DA had assault 2 bolters. Bladestorm was a 27pt squad upgrade to shoot twice in a turn followed by not shooting the next turn.

Totally different game back then.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've done a complete breakdown in another post of all the infantry that need adjustments if we are just going to keep the same stats and adjust points to the Infantry/Kabalites/Firewarriors/battle sister.

You seem to be missing those four units from your list, unless you are suggesting they are priced correctly.

I wonder if GW went/go through half the effort people are pouring into this discussion when coming out with marines?

It's hard to imagine that they did. I really wish I could take this whole thread and just send it to GW. This forum really never agrees on anything but some how we've gotten everyone (except Shuppet...) to agree that marines are over-priced.

The solutions range from 2+ saves, +1 wound or reducing the price to 10-11 points.

It also seem universal that their offensive out-put is too low and should be resolved with +1 A across the board. The shooting power doesn't seem to have the same universal solution but I think it depends on the durability solution. Increase the armor/+1w and they need from double the shots to exploding sixes.

The rest of the codex is still in a bad spot (paper thin "tanks", over costed transports, drop pods, slow as poop dreads, Guilliman, chaplins, deepstrike rule, flyers, vindicators, centurians, land raiders, terminators, psychic powers, strategems). But with the amount of work it's taken people to just come together on tacs I'm not sure if we have the collective willpower to even consider the rest of the issues.

Fair synopsis?

bananathug wrote:

Spoiler:

I wonder if GW went/go through half the effort people are pouring into this discussion when coming out with marines?

It's hard to imagine that they did. I really wish I could take this whole thread and just send it to GW. This forum really never agrees on anything but some how we've gotten everyone (except Shuppet...) to agree that marines are over-priced.

The solutions range from 2+ saves, +1 wound or reducing the price to 10-11 points.

It also seem universal that their offensive out-put is too low and should be resolved with +1 A across the board. The shooting power doesn't seem to have the same universal solution but I think it depends on the durability solution. Increase the armor/+1w and they need from double the shots to exploding sixes.

The rest of the codex is still in a bad spot (paper thin "tanks", over costed transports, drop pods, slow as poop dreads, Guilliman, chaplins, deepstrike rule, flyers, vindicators, centurians, land raiders, terminators, psychic powers, strategems). But with the amount of work it's taken people to just come together on tacs I'm not sure if we have the collective willpower to even consider the rest of the issues.

Fair synopsis?

Close enough.
I will concede that 10-11ppm Marines present a better solution to the offense issue than having 2W. Getting more bodies on the table means more bolters and more melee attacks.

How does everyone feel about giving Marines the Exarch treatment? Keeping Marines at 1W. but unit leaders like Sgts and Champions get +1W?
You can hardly argue the precedence isn't there. Unit leaders are little mini-heroes afterall.

-

bananathug wrote:
The solutions range from 2+ saves, +1 wound or reducing the price to 10-11 points.

It also seem universal that their offensive out-put is too low and should be resolved with +1 A across the board. The shooting power doesn't seem to have the same universal solution but I think it depends on the durability solution. Increase the armor/+1w and they need from double the shots to exploding sixes.

+1 wound, +1 attack, and with a little extra firepower

It's a primaris intercessor. Can't be long before GW starts releasing special and heavy weapons for them either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rerolls rerolls rerolls.

And more big guns.

Which none of those armies have? Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Mechanicus have the same access to rerolls and Guard can get them just being Cadian (reroll for the Blast weapons on Catachan might be better for you. Math was done elsewhere as far as I know).

Not as thoroughly and plentiful, off the top of my head. All to hit, 1s to wound, for potentially everything against anything.

Archons? Autarchs? Dominus? Ya know, the HQ's you're already taking, with the former two being cheaper than Captains?

Meanwhile Cadians get them just for sitting still, which really isn't hard when you ignore LoS and have a lot of range, or even both.

Do they get full re-rolls to hit (not just 1's) and any re-rolls to wound?

Do you get the same in your army without wasting 3CP?

I'll take your avoidance of answering the question as a "no".

More re-rolls are available to SM.

No it really isn't.
Marines currently have:
1. Captains
2. Wisdom Of The Ancient (which is redundant and a bad Strategem)
3. Named Chapter Masters (which you don't use, as that would clearly be too broken for your casual games obviously)
4. The Chapter Master Strategem, which is a whopping 3CP.

All those are bad outside the named Chapter Masters and Captains. So we can actually call it two sources of bonuses to hit, as much as you want to protest. I almost can't wait to see the follow up post on why Wisdom Of The Ancients is so great from you. You love defending horrid balance.
For wounding you have the Lt. and Killshot, the latter of which being horribly specific to the point it almost doesn't exist thanks to Rule Of Three.

So what do other armies have outside all the bonuses I named? Let's take a look.
1. AdMech have the Dominus (Captain), Cawl (named Chapter Master), Benediction Of The Omnissiah, and the Protector Doctrina Imperative. So the Dunecrawlers, on top of not receiving negative bonuses moving, get the same generic HQ dudes providing rerolls and don't have some stupidly specific Strategems. Then of course Benediction isn't hard to activate. There's a clear winner here whether you want to admit it or not. Rerolling to sound only matters if you can hit, and there's a clear value to modifying your hit rolls instead of an always varying Wound roll.
2. Eldar once again have the Autarch (Captain), Linked Fire, and Runes Of Witnessing. There's no full reroll, but Fire Prisms can fire twice without any penalty if they barely moved, making the bonuses for Autarchs and Runes Of Witnessing to come into play. More importantly is Linked Fire, as Wave Serpents don't need to even be near each other. You get full rerolls and Shred. That's much better than Killshot. Once again we have a clear winner.
3. I don't actually need to go into everything Russes get do I?
4. The only one you're correct on is Dark Eldar. You have Archons and there's some Warlord trait with a reroll of 1 to wound somewhere.

1. Maybe Admech have similar access to re-rolls. You'll have to be more detailed as I'm not too familiar with them. I don't think anybody's writing home about Admech as a competitive army though. They're still new and pretty low on choices, if I recall. Value for re-rolls is also dependent on the units that can get them.
2. Fewer re-rolls overall. Increased output on a few units doesn't equal increased output to every unit.
3. Russes are a single unit. Not even every weapon they have gets to fire twice. Unless your army is made entirely of Russes, the total bonus is still less.
4. No need to comment.

Chapter Master + Lt. can basically increase the damage output of the entire army by 50%. There's no rational way to ignore the impact of that.

But I want my 3W bikes doe!!!!!!!!!!

Out of curiosity, what unit leaders currently have 2W just for plot armor?

Bharring wrote:
Out of curiosity, what unit leaders currently have 2W just for plot armor?

All exarch's have +1W.