Guardsmen 5 pts per model.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

Why should guardsmen be 7 points when Skitarii Rangers are also 7 points and much much much much better?

Because Guardsmen have more synergy and serve a more valuable purpose in the context of Astra Militarum & Imperium.

Hormagants have 0 ranged weapons, a 6+ save, cannot receive orders, don't have kickass cheap tanks to back them up, and cost 5ppm. Explain why Guardsmen should be either cheaper (the reality) or the same cost (what people are advocating and Fake News Guard players are whinging about), when in reality they should at least be 1 point more.

Do you know how much better Tyranids would be if they could take Guardsmen as troops in a <HIVE FLEET> detachment?

Jorm infantry squads...OMG.

**Martel732**

It's hard to say guardsmen should be 6 ppm when kabalites are 6 ppm.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Because they didn't increase the cost of Guardsmen, which we all knew they should. 6-7 PPM is the right spot for Guardsmen given 8th edition as a whole.

You can bring an infantry squad + a mortar and deny reaper, for cheaper than i can bring 10 Hormagants. i will have no ranged weapons, meanwhile you'll be taking aim & rerolling all hits for free.

Couldn't we achieve balance by increasing the cost of officers and making infantry 5ppm...maybe droping horms to 4 PPM and giving both terms and horms a 5+ save?

**Amishprn86**

Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

I bring Termagants, which have T3, 1 shot at 12". I can't take them in squads of 9 like IG can to avoid reaper. They have a 6+ save. They cost me 4ppm.

But Gants can; get 3 shots, have ways to DS 20-30 mans, Double shoot and even have MW's via stratagems, have -1 to hit via other units, immune to Moral, re-rolls with X or more, an HQ that buffs them and rebirths them, able to get FnP.

You can NOT measure units against each other without ALL the buffs they can get.

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to say guardsmen should be 6 ppm when kabalites are 6 ppm.

Kabalites are a 7-8ppm unit easily, but that's neither here nor there, eldar in some form have always been broken. And we cannot evaluate Eldar until ALAITOC is nerfed honestly.

**Unit1126PLL**

You guys are simply ridiculous.

The claim that Guard armies are winning on the back of the Infantry Squad doing anything other than dying is ... just bonkers. Infantry Squads die well, that's about all they do. Their offensive power is fairly irrelevant. In my games, I can usually count on a single hand how many wounds were dealt to the enemy by lasguns.

Guard at 7ppm would no longer be better for Imperium than Skitarii Rangers, because the whole reason Guard are good for Imperium armies right now is cheapness...

**Xenomancers**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

I bring Termagants, which have T3, 1 shot at 12". I can't take them in squads of 9 like IG can to avoid reaper. They have a 6+ save. They cost me 4ppm.

But Gants can; get 3 shots, have ways to DS 20-30 mans, Double shoot and even have MW's via stratagems, have -1 to hit via other units, immune to Moral, re-rolls with X or more, an HQ that buffs them and rebirths them, able to get FnP.

You can NOT measure units against each other without ALL the buffs they can get.

You have to pay for base stats first IMO. This is. Stats and weapons - you increase the base cost of that with abiltiies the units have on their data sheet. Synergies with other units should factor into the cost of those abilities. Nether Gants or Infantry have any data sheet abilities worth note (gaunts get reroll 1's to wound in units of 20+) but every units gets 1 freebie like this - with guardsmen it's really their weapon being rapid fire.

IMO a stratagem should not affect the cost of a unit. The stratagem has a cost to pay for it - if the synergy is too strong - increase the cost of the strat.

**Amishprn86**

Marmatag wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to say guardsmen should be 6 ppm when kabalites are 6 ppm.

Kabalites are a 7-8ppm unit easily, but that's neither here nor there, eldar in some form have always been broken. And we cannot evaluate Eldar until ALAITOC is nerfed honestly.

Yes b.c T3 5+ guys with Poison bolters are amazing and thats why you see 80+ in every DE army on the table and not the minimum 3 units or 6 units for CP's.

**SHUPPET**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

I bring Termagants, which have T3, 1 shot at 12". I can't take them in squads of 9 like IG can to avoid reaper. They have a 6+ save. They cost me 4ppm.

But Gants can; get 3 shots, have ways to DS 20-30 mans, Double shoot and even have MW's via stratagems, have -1 to hit via other units, immune to Moral, re-rolls with X or more, an HQ that buffs them and rebirths them, able to get FnP.

You can NOT measure units against each other without ALL the buffs they can get.

i started typing so many things and deleted them because i just don't know where to begin on how wrong this is.

However it is probably my favourite comment so far, so please don't stop, I want to see where this leads

**Xenomancers**

It's a lot of things with DE. The kab itself isn't that great. Flayed skull in raiders with tons of weapon access...that is broken.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
You guys are simply ridiculous.

The claim that Guard armies are winning on the back of the Infantry Squad doing anything other than dying is ... just bonkers. Infantry Squads die well, that's about all they do. Their offensive power is fairly irrelevant. In my games, I can usually count on a single hand how many wounds were dealt to the enemy by lasguns.

Guard at 7ppm would no longer be better for Imperium than Skitarii Rangers, because the whole reason Guard are good for Imperium armies right now is cheapness...

If Infantry only "die well", please present a troop choice more durable for the cost. I'll be waiting.

**Bobthehero**

Marmatag wrote:
You can bring an infantry squad + a mortar and deny reaper, f you'll be taking aim & rerolling all hits for free.

No? You can only do that if you're Cadian, and you gotta pay for an officer (which bumps the cost of Guardsmen to 6ppm, right now)

**KurtAngle2**

Marmatag wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

Why should guardsmen be 7 points when Skitarii Rangers are also 7 points and much much much much better?

Because Guardsmen have more synergy and serve a more valuable purpose in the context of Astra Militarum & Imperium.

Hormagants have 0 ranged weapons, a 6+ save, cannot receive orders, don't have kickass cheap tanks to back them up, and cost 5ppm. Explain why Guardsmen should be either cheaper (the reality) or the same cost (what people are advocating and Fake News Guard players are whinging about), when in reality they should at least be 1 point more.

Do you know how much better Tyranids would be if they could take Guardsmen as troops in a <HIVE FLEET> detachment?

This is in fact happening since Tyranid players are using GSC Neophyte which are superior to Tyranids Hormas/Termas even in their Index status...so sad

**Dandelion**

Spoletta wrote:

Are you being ironic? Do you really believe that math wise dark reapers are good???

I don't play against eldar so I wouldn't know.

Ok, i'll bait. Here is your comparison, 165 points of marines (sarg and 4 lascannon devs) vs 5 darks reapers (170) points. No cherub for ease of math and to make it even more stacked against marines, which are not even a competitive choice to begin with. The sarg does not even have an auspex! He also forgot his bolter home! The exarch also has a reaper launcher instead of the typical exarch weapon which would make him look bad in this AT comparison.

Durability: No match here, same exact stats except that marines are T4. This does not count against artillery o LR fire of Str8+ but against mortars, burst cannons, devourers, and the like increases durability by 20% or 33%. Marines also have an ablative wound in the sarg.

Firepower:

Against an LR equivalent (T8 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines 3,26 for Reapers. Marines inflict 56% more damage.

Against Predator/PBC equivalent (T7 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines and 4,32 for Reapers. Marines inflict 18% more damage. PBC have DR, but it impatcs both weapons for the same percentage. Marines still win by the same margin.

Against TVault/knight equivalent (T8 4++) we have 3,05 for marines and 2,47 for Reapers. Marines inflict 23% more damage.

Against Armiger equivalent (T7 5++) we have 4,02 for marines and 4,32 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.

Against flyrant equivalent (T7 4++) we have 3,04 for marines and 3,267 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.

Well, don't forget that Reapers have 2W on their leader, so that would likely skew durability to about even.
- it takes 27 boltgun hits to kill a 5 reaper squad.
- 30 boltguns to kill the 5 man dev squad.
so +10% durability for marines.

Now for output:
Shooting at a Russ:
-Reapers: 3.33 W
-Devs: 5.18 W (3.88 W if moving)
+55% (+16%) for devs
Shooting at a Predator:
- Reapers: 4.44 W
- Devs: 5.18 W (3.88 W if moving)
+16% for devs (+14% for Reapers)
Shooting at a Riptide:
- Reapers: 4.44 W
- Devs: 4.15 W (3.11 if moving)
+7% (+42%) for Reapers
Shooting at a Ghostkeel (w/ shield, no drones):
- Reapers: 3.33 W
- Devs: 2.33 W (1.55 W if moving)
+42% (+114%) for reapers
Shooting at an Armored Sentinel:
- Reapers: 4.44 W
- Devs: 5.18 W (3.88 W if moving)
+16% for devs (+14% for Reapers)
Shooting at a Custode:
- Reapers: 3.33 W
- Devs: 2.66 W (2W if moving)
+28% (+65%) for Reapers
Shooting at an Intercesssor:
- Reapers: 5.9 W
- Devs: 3.7 W (2.77 W if moving)
+59% (+112%) for Reapers

So basically, devs win out against toughness 8, no invuln/shenanigans models. But against anything else, Reapers win.
In the case of the predator and sentinel, the two are about even when considering variable movement, so if the devs only move once every 2 turns, the damage averages out.

**Amishprn86**

SHUPPET wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
If guardsmen are only going up to 5 points, and not the 6 or 7 they deserve, Lasguns should be strength 2, and their save should be 6+. Conscripts should be 7+.

I bring Termagants, which have T3, 1 shot at 12". I can't take them in squads of 9 like IG can to avoid reaper. They have a 6+ save. They cost me 4ppm.

But Gants can; get 3 shots, have ways to DS 20-30 mans, Double shoot and even have MW's via stratagems, have -1 to hit via other units, immune to Moral, re-rolls with X or more, an HQ that buffs them and rebirths them, able to get FnP.

You can NOT measure units against each other without ALL the buffs they can get.

i started typing so many things and deleted them because i just don't know where to begin on how wrong this is.

However it is probably my favourite comment so far, so please don't stop, I want to see where this leads

Please type, b.c a unit in a vacuum is pointless to measure, do i agree that IG should be 5ppm? sure i can take it, do i think they are so OP that they make Gants pointless? No i dont, many tournaments players are using 60-90 mix gants and winning, i use gants and like them, i feel 4ppm is fine for them.

**Dandelion**

SHUPPET wrote:

If you are familiar with "Wargame: Red Dragon", you would see that each faction has different flavors of essentially the same units. However, the interaction with LOS, cover, hiding etc... give the game huge tactical depth, and the minute differences between units can be exploited by clever deployment to gain an advantage over otherwise similar units.

does it still have a community? I always wanted to get into that game

**Galas**

Bobthehero wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
You can bring an infantry squad + a mortar and deny reaper, f you'll be taking aim & rerolling all hits for free.

No? You can only do that if you're Cadian, and you gotta pay for an officer (which bumps the cost of Guardsmen to 6ppm, right now)

Why is people ussing officers has an argument to defend how Infantry Squads are not OP when the fact that you are forced to bring HQ in any kind of detachment and officers are so cheap and so usefull is actually one of the best parts of IG.

Infantry squads are not "worse" because they need an Officer to work properly. Is the opposite, many armies would kill for HQ's like Officers.

**SHUPPET**

Dandelion wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Dandelion wrote:

If you are familiar with "Wargame: Red Dragon", you would see that each faction has different flavors of essentially the same units. However, the interaction with LOS, cover, hiding etc... give the game huge tactical depth, and the minute differences between units can be exploited by clever deployment to gain an advantage over otherwise similar units.

does it still have a community? I always wanted to get into that game

There's about 300ish people on at a given time. I would suggest getting a friend to play with first to learn the ropes though since multiplayer is brutal. I got it for $10 during a sale, and they have sales fairly often.

I own the game. Played it with a friend for a bit, who I also played 40k with, but unfortunately had a falling out with. I was teaching him how to get good at 40k and he was teaching me Wargame (at the time Airland Battle was the wave) but I dropped it at the same time as dropping him as a friend. However, the game itself also seemed pretty awesome. I'm in Australia though, is that gonna mean its no-one?

**Bobthehero**

Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

**Martel732**

Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

**JNAProductions**

Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

**Xenomancers**

Galas wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
You can bring an infantry squad + a mortar and deny reaper, f you'll be taking aim & rerolling all hits for free.

No? You can only do that if you're Cadian, and you gotta pay for an officer (which bumps the cost of Guardsmen to 6ppm, right now)

Why is people ussing officers has an argument to defend how Infantry Squads are not OP when the fact that you are forced to bring HQ in any kind of detachment and officers are so cheap and so usefull is actually one of the best parts of IG.

Infantry squads are not "worse" because they need an Officer to work properly. Is the opposite, many armies would kill for HQ's like Officers.

I try to argue this point all the time. It falls on deaf ears most the time.

**Marmatag**

Galas wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
You can bring an infantry squad + a mortar and deny reaper, f you'll be taking aim & rerolling all hits for free.

No? You can only do that if you're Cadian, and you gotta pay for an officer (which bumps the cost of Guardsmen to 6ppm, right now)

Why is people ussing officers has an argument to defend how Infantry Squads are not OP when the fact that you are forced to bring HQ in any kind of detachment and officers are so cheap and so usefull is actually one of the best parts of IG.

Infantry squads are not "worse" because they need an Officer to work properly. Is the opposite, many armies would kill for HQ's like Officers.

"Fake News, I feel that Guard HQs are bigly expensive. Sad." -Guard players

**Xenomancers**

JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

60 points to fill HQ requirements for a batallion and turn 54 shots into 108....it's absolutely insane man. Probably also twinlinking a mortar unit too.

The aura hq is still only 1 hq too. You have to bye another. So the end result is - you have a batallion that is super buffed and I have 2 hq's with nothing buff yet.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

**SHUPPET**

Everything in this discussion falls on deaf ears. This is the same people who argued that IG is weak because nobody runs it solo. These are the new equivalent of 6th-7th Tau community.

**Kanluwen**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

**Slayer-Fan123**

SHUPPET wrote:
Everything in this discussion falls on deaf ears. This is the same people who argued that IG is weak because nobody runs it solo. These are the new equivalent of 6th-7th Tau community.

Eh more like Eldar I'd wager. Not to say 7th Tau was weak of course, but I find the apologists more like Eldar players defending their units compared to Tau players who, in their defense, had a worse written codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

Hard to say it's degrading the effectiveness of an order when the Order is effectively still 6+ free shots instead of 9. Poor you :(

**Bobthehero**

How are you buffing 6+ squads with 2 Officers? And then buffing the mortar?

And Marmatag, I never said that they were expensive, I said they weren't free, so who's gakking out Fake News now?

**JNAProductions**

Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

60 points to fill HQ requirements for a batallion and turn 54 shots into 108....it's absolutely insane man. Probably also twinlinking a mortar unit too.

The aura hq is still only 1 hq too. You have to bye another. So the end result is - you have a batallion that is super buffed and I have 2 hq's with nothing buff yet.

60 points gets you four orders. Just four. So you can only FRFSRF four squads, for 36 into 72 shots.

And Marines can buy a Lieutenant, which stacks just fine with a Captain/Chapter Master. Guard can get a Commisar, if they want... Which sucks.

Note: I'm not saying Marines are as good as guard. They aren't-but again, why say "Nerf Guard!" when guard are in a good place, especially in relation to being able to run different things and still perform well, instead of saying "Buff Marines!" so everyone can enjoy all aspects of their codex?