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tneva82 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
@ Jidmah and Englishman

If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.

Same attitude why certain people wanted wraithknight nerfed into total useless garbage. Revenge.

I am going to be shamelessly honest. I don't care that the WK is garbage this edition. It should be. Another point to be shameless about. I don't care if the ork codex comes out OP. It will get adjusted eventually and I will be able to take any units out of my collection and have a chance of winning, I can even play the units nobody uses just because they will stand a chance. I guess this may just mean good codex synergy to some people. Now if it's 1 busted build I'll be a bit upset.

Also for the people saying that the DDD rule of always hitting on 6s should be a core rule. Maybe instead of just debating that how about adding an extra rule aspect to DDD to replace that which may be taken and given to everyone. I think that might help some of the animosity that is appearing on this thread. We have kind of derailed this thread from rumors and/or speed freaks topics.

as much as I want my tau to auto hit on 6s, tbh I don't see it as a core rule 'til either 9th or another codex. The rule is fresh and it will make it redundant if it came in CA right away.

Dandelion wrote:
@ Jidmah and Englishman

If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.

I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.

im enjoying the QQ from other races considering practically every other race player laughed in my face when we got the 7th codex and said "well that sucks better learn to deal with it"
Orks finally get something really strong nobody else has. I relish in the tears im seeing!

just Re: the new basing of ork boys question - anyone got a copy of August white dwarf?

Turn to page 128 and tell me if you think the bases those Orks are on look bigger than the guard they are facing. I think they are.

There is no place in the game that specifies which models sit on what bases; even if they 'change' what shipped with them, you dont have to rebase

If the feet aren’t hanging over both edges and the model doesn’t look like it’s going to fall over at any moment, then it’s the bigger base.

There is no way I'm rebasing all my models.

I might actually rebase my models if the base sizes change because, first of all, I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to Da Rules and I'm pretty sure I recall GW once saying that the base a model ships with is its official size. Two, and more importantly, I'm not too happy with how my bases look right now, and I've been wanting to make them more complex for a while now. This would be the excuse the actually do it.

Of course, I'd still prefer we didn't.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to Da Rules and I'm pretty sure I recall GW once saying that the base a model ships with is its official size.

They did not say this thing; tehy have said in the past you may use the base a model came with, but not that the base it currently comes with is in any way official

tneva82 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
@ Jidmah and Englishman

If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.

Same attitude why certain people wanted wraithknight nerfed into total useless garbage. Revenge.

Tneva can you stop pretending that you speak for anyone except for your dumb self? Just for once?

Did you ever consider it might be something like;

 JimOnMars wrote:
I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.

Or perhaps because I like the idea of Orks having something uniquely powerful, for once? Like what every other race expects as standard?

E - Good spot on the bases arkapello. I won't be rebasing my models though. Certainly not any time soon anyway.

The amount of people whining over the Orks always being able to hit on 6's is staggering!

Back to the topic on hand, I just sold my Ork bike army to a friend about 6 months ago and now I have to rebuild it, at least in part, because those ork buggies look amazing. So does that war boss on the bike. Figure I'll have to get 2 speed freak boxes, one of three new bosses on the trike, and some forge world nob bikers. That'll give me a pretty sweet little speed freak army.

Jeez, remind me to link this thread when there a ''Ork players are awesome'' popping up

 JimOnMars wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
@ Jidmah and Englishman

If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.

I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.

This.

Basically everyone who has a single 5+ shooting unit in their codex is now crying like a baby how they have it worse than orks.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Jeez, remind me to link this thread when there a ''Ork players are awesome'' popping up

I think most Ork players are awesome. I think that written communication on the Internet just tends to lead to misunderstandings, and the discussion that follows the misunderstanding leads to more misunderstandings, and eventually it compounds into vicious arguments over incredibly minor disagreements. So it's not so much that Ork players are actually a bunch of jerks, it's just that web forums make everyone seem like a jerk.

Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

Dandelion wrote:
@ Jidmah and Englishman

If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
On top of everything that's been discussed, those other armies have multiple, easy, ways of getting +1 to-hits; each in their own ways.

Also, we keep talking about total number of HITS. I feel that if we're not picking targets and calculating wounds/armor saves/FNP; we're only seeing half of the equation.

You're absolutely right that points costs need to be taken into account when comparing numbers, but...

...so too do weapon stats. Orks HAVE to keep moving forward, they have no way to gunline outside of Grots. The vast majority of their weapons are 24" or shorter; which means you're always moving, as well as potentially advancing; which is to say most weapons will also be getting an innate -1 just for trying to be used. That sucks when you're BS5+ and have no other ways to get accuracy increases.

Hitting on 6's flatly was NEEDED for an Ork army to even try and function.

No one is arguing that orks didn't need the 6s always hit. I just wanted to point out that: A) it should be a core rule and B) ork shooting isn't necessarily garbage since point costs and weapon profiles can and will change.
Stop trying to make this anything other than that.

I see it a bit differently I think.
I absolutely agree it should have been part of the core rules and I am thrilled it is in AoS now.
To me it seems like giving it to every army in the next faq is a , for lack of a better term, slap in the mouth. I only mean that for Ork player getting a fancy new rule is a huge buzz. Giving half that rule way to everyone else feels like a bit of a buzz kill. But what ever happens happens.
Personally I do not think a 6 should always hit. But I guess it's the age of streamline rules. The reason I don't think a 6 should always hit is because I see it as a crutch over taking units that cost more in points or cash that have stats that will hit on a 6 when subject to a -2 to hit.

I'm probably in the minority with that opinion. Which is fine.

Bases:
No way am I rebasing. For several reasons.

One - Time/effort/money. Each model would have to be changed and new bases bought etc and the work to redo them all, I need to be working on unpainted minis...

Two - number of models, I didn’t change my marines as it would have taken too long, and that was 60-70 models.
My Orks are triple that..

Three - Army cases. They were bought and planned with old slots for them (custom battlefoam, so it’s exact sized bits).
That’s why my Necrons stayed on old bases, and I’m only just building them up now, but they wouldn’t fit in otherwise - maybe the Praet/Lychguard models I will, and characters. Same with Orks, but not the slots wouldn’t fit them for..

 Davespil wrote:
The amount of people whining over the Orks always being able to hit on 6's is staggering!

The amount of people who don't care to read, and more importantly understand, is staggering. You see, NO ONE is complaining that Orks hit on 6s. NO ONE.
A couple people made some comments on how it'd be nice for the game if every faction could hit on 6s as a core rule. Then... it all began.

Ork players started showing their true colors, claiming that they, and only they, are deserving of this most grandiose rule. Never mind that other factions have had similar problems, though to a lesser extent. Apparently, they just don't care and they label any who would bring to light similarly maligned units as a cry baby. They only care about themselves and their faction and it is THAT attitude that irks me.

Pure hypocrisy.

I'm leaving before I burst a blood vessel from the contradictions and entitlement. Any sympathy I had for Ork players just evaporated because of this thread.

Good day.

Wanna always hit on a 6, play KillTeam. Just saying.

Kendo wrote:
Wanna always hit on a 6, play KillTeam. Just saying.

So you're saying that we should remove the always fail on a 1 rule? Cool!

There is no point to making a rule for all armies to hit on 6's. Given most armies are majority BS4+ or BS3+. If they face -2 to hit they are already hitting on a 6+ or a 5+. The rule would have no point.

-3 to hit is very rare and i can only think of 1 army that can do it with a strat (eldar) there may be more, but none that i know of. If you made it so every one hits on 6's , that would make having a -3 to hit pointless.

Orks get this rule because they are majority BS5+ , so a -2 to them made it so they can shoot at all. A -2 to AM or Tau (mostl BS4+) still lets them hit on a 6.

This makes orks unique in a way from other armies. Not all armies need all the same rules. Especially if its pointsless. Like lwhats the point of custodes always hitting on 6's ? They are BS2+.

There isnt enough -3 to hit in the game to shut down a BS4+ army completely to justify letting everyone hit on 6's.

My 2 teef.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Kendo wrote:
Wanna always hit on a 6, play KillTeam. Just saying.

So you're saying that we should remove the always fail on a 1 rule? Cool!

No, that’s in there too.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
There is no point to making a rule for all armies to hit on 6's. Given most armies are majority BS4+ or BS3+. If they face -2 to hit they are already hitting on a 6+ or a 5+. The rule would have no point.

-3 to hit is very rare and i can only think of 1 army that can do it with a strat (eldar) there may be more, but none that i know of. If you made it so every one hits on 6's , that would make having a -3 to hit pointless.

Orks get this rule because they are majority BS5+ , so a -2 to them made it so they can shoot at all. A -2 to AM or Tau (mostl BS4+) still lets them hit on a 6.

This makes orks unique in a way from other armies. Not all armies need all the same rules. Especially if its pointsless. Like lwhats the point of custodes always hitting on 6's ? They are BS2+.

There isnt enough -3 to hit in the game to shut down a BS4+ army completely to justify letting everyone hit on 6's.

My 2 teef.

Yup, pretty much sums it up.

GW are not stupid, I think their reasoning is probably more or less the same. I for one am happy that my Orks will now always hit on a 6, although I don't think it will have a huge impact on Ork shooting - hopefully there are also point reductions to shooting units and strategems to improve them. It would be great to be able to field my Lootas again, for example.

Orks need BS 4+ and one attack less. The always hits on 6 for ranged weapons rule is okay but not thrilling, if all the other factions are way better shots.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Orks need BS 4+ and one attack less. The always hits on 6 for ranged weapons rule is okay but not thrilling, if all the other factions are way better shots.

Orks in general? No, but it might be a good rule for shoota boyz

They had BS 3 ( hits on a 4+) in 2nd edition, but back then they were in units about the same size as everyone else.

The maximum modifier to hit is I think -10. It is very situational and involves a lot of moving parts to work, and impacts one model. However it is something that only Orks can now not only ignore, but benefit from as it grants an additional shot.

-1 for Alaitoc
-1 Conceal power
-1 Drain power
-1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem
-1 Warp Spider Flickerjump/Flyer Hard to Hit/Shimmerplume/Shiftshroud/Cameleoline Cloaks/Banshee Exarch (Notice a pattern here?)
-1 Moving Heavy/Advancing Assault penalty
-1 wounded by Baharroth
-3 from night fighting at 36"

There should always be a chance to hit, a natural roll of a 6 should hit, just like a natural roll of a 1 should miss. Omitting this rule is poor game design, especially when it is handed out to one factions. That faction may need it the most, but that doesn't warrant it being exclusive to them.

How do you get wounded by Baharroth while being 12/ 36" away from him?

Conceal is also limited to infantry and bikes, while the stratagem is limited to infantry and units with fly, no hard to hit flyers.

Last, none of the three variants of night fighting made by GW provide more than -1 to hit.

And once again, no reasoning is given why you should be able to hit such a buffed unit with a unit that has been debuffed and moved by you. "Because orks have it too" is not a reason, neither is "this is poor game design" unless you provide reason why it is poor game design.

Even if all these come together:
- Unless you have fly, you can't shoot anyways, because there is a Phoenix lord within 1" of your unit.
- If you have FLY (or similar), fall back with your unit and just shoot Baharroth at -2, worst case -3 if you have nothing but heavy weapons.
- Fall back and have another nearby unit shoot Baharroth at -1.
- Have all your other units in the army shoot with no more than -2 (innate hard to hit+allaitoc) since all buffs and debuffs have been wasted one unit. All of them will be able to hit on sixes.

won't be rebasing anything, I do however have a stack of 32mm bases spare (I have two copies of BoP where the models are on steel bases), and a load of square based orcs looking for a new home to be rebased and combined with spare sluggas and other assorted 40k bits who likely will get 32mm bases.

They will just be the units that don't get the benefit of a KFF or a vehicle to ride in