Zo in Master of Mankind

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**Onething123456**

Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Zero chance he is from the of Strife.

The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are considered to be Games Worshop's best work.

He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.

You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.

**Andykp**

I wouldn’t say zero chance. There’s not a zero chance of anything regarding the emperor. He “could” be anything. I like the shaman story. Which means he may well not be human. It’s like lots of terms in 40k, what does being human mean? Marines are genetically altered, so are they still humans or are they human+?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.

What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.

He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.

See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.

**Onething123456**

Andykp wrote:
I wouldn’t say zero chance. There’s not a zero chance of anything regarding the emperor. He “could” be anything. I like the shaman story. Which means he may well not be human. It’s like lots of terms in 40k, what does being human mean? Marines are genetically altered, so are they still humans or are they human+?

I should have said close to zero chance. Sorry about that.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.

What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.

He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.

See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.

**Onething123456**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.

What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.

He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.

See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.

She still could have lying. People will say all sorts of things even when they know for an absolute fact they are going to die.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

You're just talking in circles at this point because you and I have already ridden that horse. Other people have also made their opinions known about it.

We just have different views on whether or not she was lying, clearly I don't believe she was. She had no reason to lie, an there are no implications that she knows any further truth to misconstrue with a lie. She's saying what she believes to be the truth.

**Onething123456**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
You're just talking in circles at this point because you and I have already ridden that horse. Other people have also made their opinions known about it.

We just have different views on whether or not she was lying, clearly I don't believe she was. She had no reason to lie, an there are no implications that she knows any further truth to misconstrue with a lie. She's saying what she believes to be the truth.

And this is true because you say so? She COULD have been lying.

And who has said in this thread besides you? You are the only one, as far as I can see.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Im not saying its true because I say so, Im saying thats what I believe is the case. Like how you believe your point of view is the case. Which is why its pointless for us to continue to beat the dead horse, because we've been talking in circles.

You really dont see other posts saying they dont think she was lying? Really?

Also, you should note that I never specifically stated that they have voiced the same opinion, I have said that other people have also made their point on what we have been discussing. I did not say anyone had voice my same exact opinion. However, exactly one person did say something I had said earlier in the thread almost exactly the same way I said it. Its quoted above.

**Crimson**

HoundsofDemos wrote:

One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.

They're probably made of human DNA. Vat grown humans are still humans. And about the warp stuff, Psykers are still humans and channel warp stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Any source which says that Ollanius was anything else than a normal guardsman is obvious nonsense and can be safely ignored.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

**Onething123456**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

The shaman backround was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.

Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.

**HoundsofDemos**

Onething123456 wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

The shaman back round was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

It should be noted that origin may not be cannon any more.

**Crimson**

HoundsofDemos wrote:

It should be noted that origin may not be cannon any more.

It is canon, but it doesn't mean it is true.

**Andykp**

Did the custodes say anything about him breathing after finishing off that woman?

**Onething123456**

Andykp wrote:
Did the custodes say anything about him breathing after finishing off that woman?

I don't know. But either way, when you look at the Emperor, you see what he wants you to. He is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant.

And the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Workshop's best work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:

One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.

They're probably made of human DNA. Vat grown humans are still humans. And about the warp stuff, Psykers are still humans and channel warp stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Any source which says that Ollanius was anything else than a normal guardsman is obvious nonsense and can be safely ignored.

You said there is canon in 40k. You cannot just ignore it as it is part of the lore. If you don't fancy the Emperor being around before our time and being born in Anatolia, that is fine. But do not reject it. The Perpetuals are part of the lore.

He and the other Perpetuals are well written. But you probably have not even read the books about them.

Take this quote from Voltstagge on Reddit.

Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won

.

The Perpetuals are awesome. People like you probably have not read the books.

And Pius being made into a Perpetual makes more sense than a mortal guardsman, since there is no way a Guardsman would have ended up on Horus' ship. And they would have sent more Marines to Horus' ship, not Guardsmen.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Onething123456 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Zero chance he is from the of Strife.

The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.

He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.

You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.

Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.

Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.

Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.

**BrianDavion**

Aye Drach'nyen and the Emperor are linked, I suspect the destiny is a little more hazy then that. I've learned to be cautious about prophecy in 40k, Angrel Ta's fate is a good example of why, everyone assumed he'd be killed by Sanguinius on Terra. turns out it wasn't the case.

**Onething123456**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Zero chance he is from the of Strife.

The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.

He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.

You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.

Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.

Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.

Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.

Where precisely does it say they were going to wipe the Laer? They were originally going to conquer them. Please underline where it says they were going to wipe them out if it exists. Do you realize that "subjugation" means just controlling them? It also said they were originally going to "conquer" the Laer.

**Delvarus Centurion**

BrianDavion wrote:
Aye Drach'nyen and the Emperor are linked, I suspect the destiny is a little more hazy then that. I've learned to be cautious about prophecy in 40k, Angrel Ta's fate is a good example of why, everyone assumed he'd be killed by Sanguinius on Terra. turns out it wasn't the case.

Agreed but seeing that the Emperor didn't contradict Drach'nyen it makes me assume that will be the case. Abaddon is the warmaster now and he does wield Drach'nyen so seems like it will end up happening, though whether the Emperor is trapped inside Drach'nyen or goes to the warp to become a god or reincarnate is another story all together.

**w1zard**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.

This Sisters of Silence saw him as an old man too, of normal stature.

It is true that we don't really know what the emperor looks like as it has been stated in the lore he is fond of using psychic glamours and altering his appearance to show others what they want to see. But if Magnus (who was the most powerful psyker in existence besides the emperor himself), the Custodes (who share the Emperor's geneseed), and the Sisters of Silence (who nullify psychic powers) all agree on something, that is probably the best bet.

**Onething123456**

w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.

This Sisters of Silence saw him as an old man too, of normal stature.

It is true that we don't really know what the emperor looks like as it has been stated in the lore he is fond of using psychic glamours and altering his appearance to show others what they want to see. But if Magnus (who was the most powerful psyker in existence besides the emperor himself), the Custodes (who share the Emperor's geneseed), and the Sisters of Silence (who nullify psychic powers) all agree on something, that is probably the best bet.

His real form is probably that of a normal human with prehistoric Anatolian features and olive skinned.

And His talk with Perpetual Oll Persson really disproves anything DAOT. The Perpetuals are part of the lore.

**HoundsofDemos**

I think as someone pointed out earlier in the thread Corax probably came the closest to seeing the real him. A perfectly average human being who wouldn't stand out in a crowd. The Emperor could literally be your next door neighbor.

**Delvarus Centurion**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think as someone pointed out earlier in the thread Corax probably came the closest to seeing the real him. A perfectly average human being who wouldn't stand out in a crowd. The Emperor could literally be your next door neighbor.

Corax never saw him as an average human, he saw a contridiction, neither fat nor thin, not tall or small, nor young nor old.

**HoundsofDemos**

ah, thank you for that clarification. To me that still sounds kinda average though, basically featureless.

**Delvarus Centurion**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
ah, thank you for that clarification. To me that still sounds kinda average though, basically featureless.

More featureless than it already is...

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.

Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.

As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.

That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.

Zero chance he is from the of Strife.

The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.

He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

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Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

-snip-

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.

You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.

People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.

Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.

Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.

Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.

Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.

Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.

**Manchu**

"Neither one extreme nor its opposite" is not a contradiction, however. It just means, not extreme. "Average" is a casual way of putting it.

**tneva82**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.

What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.

The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.

She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.

The shaman back round was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

Unless it\s been overwritten later it is still canon. Has there been clear statement opposite?
It should be noted that origin may not be cannon any more.