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Also you calculate averages for a reason. Lascannons could biff their damage roll, which is where the real work for them is. The average Obliterator shot is S8 AP-2 D2. The strength is lower but the AP and damage bypass several mechanics that people rely on for their vehicles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you calculate averages for a reason. Lascannons could biff their damage roll, which is where the real work for them is. The average Obliterator shot is S8 AP-2 D2. The strength is lower but the AP and damage bypass several mechanics that people rely on for their vehicles.

The averages really don't tell a good story for Oblits. Look at the difference between all 3s and all 1s, and both are equally likely.

I chose a Knight specifically BECAUSE all the stats mattered. (Well, AP-2 and AP-3 are the same. But mostly.)

Wheren't double-shooting slaaneshy Obliterators one of the Chaos Crunchs a couple of months back?

oblys are still good, i played them a lot and unless you just play few (3 for example) they average roll enough to threathen evey unit in the game, you need to play a lot (9) plus a lord for re roll 1's if you want a reliable antitank but hardly they dont pay back. Hardly chaos can put into the table better firepower , havocs cant compare, predators aren't durable enough i wont ever consider defiler

 JNAProductions wrote:


They have 24" guns. They need not deepstrike.

Then that's one more way they can fail, as your opponent can deploy slightly behind the DZ or not parallel to your Oblits, and then they can only make it into range with Warptime. Which costs more resources, can fail, and still cannot target multiple Obliterator units. Or another way they fail again, you manage deploy in walking range from 24" from your optimal target, deploy with your army, lose the rolloff, and lose the Oblits first turn before firing or get wrapped up in assault because you had to deploy them on your frontline to get that first turn of shooting, where your Havocs wouldn't have because you put them in the ruins. You're either a turn behind on shooting or you're taking more risks that the alternative doesn't, and this is a consistent situation for 40k, and it's why most people say they do DS their Oblits.

 JNAProductions wrote:

And let's compare 3 Oblits (195 points) to a 4-Las Havoc Squad (165 points). We'll shoot, say, a Knight. And remember-the difference in points is less than 20%.

The post I just responded to specifically said 2 Havocs for every 1 Obliterator, so that's why I was doing 2 for 1. But even at a squad vs squad ratio, the Havocs are outdamaging and outranging by double the Oblits, for 165 pts compared to 195 points, and that's by your own stats rolling averagely for the Oblits guns, which specifically takes into account NONE of my criticism.

The criticism is that they are unreliable, and have too many opportunities to fail. The criticism I gave was not that they aren't worth their points when they DO get to roll a flat average across the board (although honestly, they probably still aren't, those numbers alone highlight why). The criticism is that they have too many opportunities to fail.

It may be a 1/27 chance to roll the Three-eyed Raven, but that chance is somewhat closer to a 30% chance to roll snake eyes + a 2 or 3, aka "one good roll", like I spoke of in my post. That IS going to happen, and completely cause your AT to fail it's job when it does. And to compound that, you also don't get to pick where that good roll is. If you roll a 3 for AP, and your target has a 4++, you wasted your good roll on a stat that doesn't count you still have the exact same as rolling 3 1's. This the opposite of what consistency is.

 JNAProductions wrote:

So, on a fantastic roll, the Oblits do MASSIVELY better.

That doesn't alleviate the problem, in a game of 40k. If you don't perform your role the first turn you get a chance, there's a good chance you get wiped off the board next turn or tied up in melee and not given a chance to average out those rolls - ESPECIALLY when your range is 24". Even more so when your target profile is the Knight.

 JNAProductions wrote:


I chose a Knight specifically BECAUSE all the stats mattered. (Well, AP-2 and AP-3 are the same. But mostly.)

This is exactly one of the problems. You had to choose a unit where all the stats you could roll would matter. Not always will this be the case. What happens when that same Knight has a 4++ against shooting, as every Knight you decide to prioritise with your shooting will, you can potentially roll "averagely" and still be left in a terrible place, with a 2, 3, and 1, leaving you with S8 AP1 D1 weapon while Havoc's have a S9, AP1, D6 weapon, leaving the Obliterators worse multiple times over. Or when you need to shoot at something less tough than a Landraider, and roll 3 for the damage, but snake eyes elsewhere. You're wounding on a 3+ after hitting on a 3+ like a Lascannon, but then half of it glances off armor and the other half does a single point of damage. This isn't a consistency issue that Havoc's have to worry about. For Oblits, it's just more and more spanners that commonly end up in the works.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Then, as a reminder, if you're fighting a Warden, here's what he does BACK to your units.

I didn't care to check this math, because rather than hand selecting a model that does more damage to Havocs, why not go with BY FAR the most commonly seen Knight, the Castellan? That would be the logical thing to do here. The Castellan directing all firepower at a one of your squads of Obliterators safely wipes them all, with a wound extra damage too most the time to secure, 195 pts of Oblits down. The same Castellan even split firing on to 2 different Havoc squads for maximum damage, he kills a single Lascannon out the second squad, dealing 215 pts worth of damage. This is assuming no cover save for Havocs which they will be taking a lot easier in all practicality then the Oblits. And against anything that doesn't have 48" range on their weapons, these numbers shrink further and further on the Havocs but remain pretty static on the Obliterators. Not even to mention the opportunities for the REST of the army to dump on a T4 unit with only 24" range that aren't really provided out to 48", then durability really isn't much a selling point for either




And remember, the topic is whether or not Obliterators are good in 8TH EDITION. That's a measurement vs AT in this game, not vs Havocs. Havocs aren't even that great themselves, they are just the easy comparison. Obliterators are worse, more inconsistent, pricey, restrictive in range, and just not a good unit in 8th, and once you take them off paper and start actually seeing what can happen in practice, they are much less reliable.

I'm confused primarily by one point you made-a 4++ Knight.

Against a 4++ Knight, AP-1 is the sweet spot, and Oblits might get that. Regardless, they're not paying the full AP-3 price, which a Lascannon is. So that's actually a case where they do BETTER.

I mean, hell, take something T6 3++, like a Captain On Dawneagle. At that point, literally only damage matters, so you cans ave your reroll for that and not give a damn about Strength or AP.

And a Castellan, firing EVERYTHING at Oblits, assuming Cawl's Wrath and the Raven Strat... (Okay, not everything-Shieldbreaker will be fired at a support character, and meltaguns are assumed to be out of range.)

7.83 shots with the Plasma
3.92 with the Volcano Lance
4.67 with two twin Siegebreakers

Hitting 7/9ths of the time, wounding 35/36ths wih everything but the Siegebreakers, which wound 7/9ths of the time, and saving on a 5+ (Plasma and Volcano) and 2+ (Siegebreakers-cover from Prepared Positions or actual cover), it does...

4 dead with the plasma alone.
Just under 2 dead from the Lance.
Less than half an unsaved wound from the Siegebreakers.

Whereas against Havocs...

If the Plasma and one Siegebreaker goes into one, other Siegebreaker and Volcano into the other, assuming they have cover...

5 dead from the Plasma.
2.5 ish dead from the Lance.
.5 ish dead from each Siegebreaker.

So, after running the math, doing it INTELLIGENTLY (Plasma one squad, everything else on the other) you kill one entire squad and then 3.5 from the other.

In other words, you're left with 1-2 Lascannons. Not exactly what you wrote.

Edit: I will say, Castellan does more points of damage against an Obliterator squad, since they're multiple wounds. But they can either be held in Deep Strike (yeah, they ain't firing turn one, but they're immune to damage, at least) or hidden out of LoS, and then walk out with no penalty since they have Assault weapons.

Whereas with the Havocs, if they can see the Castellan, it can see them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm confused primarily by one point you made-a 4++ Knight.

Against a 4++ Knight, AP-1 is the sweet spot, and Oblits might get that. Regardless, they're not paying the full AP-3 price, which a Lascannon is.

Oblits roll 2, 3, 1. Complete AVERAGE roll.

Knight has 4++. That roll is effectively 2, 1, 1. Your best roll is wasted.

 JNAProductions wrote:

So that's actually a case where they do BETTER.

Lets test that shall we

4x Lascannon vs 4++ Knight

=3.11 wounds



3x Obliterators vs 4++ Knight, with rolls of 2, 3, 1

= 2 wounds


over 150% damage increase for the Havocs. Vs Obliterators who rolled perfectly average dice. With double their range. For 20% cheaper. Both firing vs optimal targets. And that's not even a bad roll, which can feth you even harder. This is why looking at the gun as S8 AP2 D2 is flawed. It's not that at all. There is too many points where the Obliterator can fail.

 JNAProductions wrote:

And a Castellan, firing EVERYTHING at Oblits, assuming Cawl's Wrath and the Raven Strat... (Okay, not everything-Shieldbreaker will be fired at a support character, and meltaguns are assumed to be out of range.)

7.83 shots with the Plasma
3.92 with the Volcano Lance
4.67 with two twin Siegebreakers

Hitting 7/9ths of the time, wounding 35/36ths wih everything but the Siegebreakers, which wound 7/9ths of the time, and saving on a 5+ (Plasma and Volcano) and 2+ (Siegebreakers-cover from Prepared Positions or actual cover), it does...

4 dead with the plasma alone.
Just under 2 dead from the Lance.
Less than half an unsaved wound from the Siegebreakers.

Whereas against Havocs...

If the Plasma and one Siegebreaker goes into one, other Siegebreaker and Volcano into the other, assuming they have cover...

5 dead from the Plasma.
2.5 ish dead from the Lance.
.5 ish dead from each Siegebreaker.

So, after running the math, doing it INTELLIGENTLY (Plasma one squad, everything else on the other) you kill one entire squad and then 3.5 from the other.

In other words, you're left with 1-2 Lascannons. Not exactly what you wrote.

We fired the same guns (I too left melta and Siegebreakers out), but I didn't take the time out to factor in Cawls Wrath or House Raven. Your numbers are even more slanted towards the the Havocs, and support what I said even better. You just killed 2 full squads of Oblits, doing about 400 pts of damage. You just killed 8 Havocs, doing about 250 pts of damage, and leaving 2 Lascannons alive between both squads. That's significantly better numbers for the Havocs.

That's just cherry picking. If 2, 3, 1 is a 'completely average roll', let's use those average numbers for 3 of your 4 'to hit' rolls with the lascannons. Damage drops to 1.95 with those 'average' rolls.

 grouchoben wrote:
That's just cherry picking. If 2, 3, 1 is a 'completely average roll', let's use those average numbers for 3 of your 4 'to hit' rolls with the lascannons. Damage drops to 1.95 with those 'average' rolls.

What? I used entirely average rolls for the lascannons, with each wound calculated at 3.5 damage - exactly midway of a 3 and 4.


4x Lascannon at BS3+

2/3 hit = 2.667 hits
2/3 wound = 1.777777777777778 wounds
1/2 pen = 0.8888888888888889 pens

x 3.5 damage each = 3.11 wounds

Exactly what I said.




When rolling 3d3, a 2/3/1 result is entirely an average roll. There is no contesting that. I'm giving one of many examples of how it's another way that even an average roll on those dice can fail the Obliterators, let alone a poor one.



It's not cherry picking, I'm being beyond fair. If the facts don't line up with your current perspective, maybe it's time to reconsider why you feel what you do.

So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice. It's simply ANOTHER opportunity for Obliterators to fail. Sometimes, you will get a big payoff. Other games your AT will flub, sometimes you will roll poorly, sometimes even average rolls will be a flub as demonstrated, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. You can point at the times that it works, but for the alternatives, that's almost everytime (ANYTHING can roll poorly, you just want to minimize the probability of it happening - Oblits maximize it with a bunch of different areas they can potentially to fail). Oblits are a not a consistent or competitive unit in 8th, and the fact that math is against them on paper, the fact that off paper there is so many more ways they can fail and added pitfalls to the unit, combined with the fact of their complete lack of presence even in one of the most common top-table factions, should maybe be an indicator to go back over your notes.

I love Obliterators, and I love the concept. But in this current edition, they just aren't that great.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice.

If he doesn't get to select the dice to show them being good, you don't get to select the dice to show them being bad.

You have deliberately cherry-picked the worst-case roll which has an average of 2, and claimed it to be an "average" roll. In fact, in this specific scenario, it is the 6th worst roll possible out of 27 options - hardly "average", right?

I'm not saying your point isn't valid - sometimes, a bad roll in one stat will make the shooting significantly worse, and sometimes good rolls are wasted due to the target - but it's not exactly honest to claim this is an average roll in this context.

The thing with obliterators is they are hard to mathhammer because you can't take into account intelligent use of rerolls and target selection in your calculations.
If you roll poor D3s for strength and ap you probably don't waste a reroll on the damage D3. And you can choose a target something that the weapon profile fits better too.

I also find personally the weight of dice you throw tends to make their average profile gravitate towards average. 12 shots are more stable than 4. And it feels like the three D3 rolls are more stable than that big D6 for your lascannons.
This is even moreso with the EC strat. If my D3 rolls are poor first time round, they probably will be good second time round.

Lascannons always seem so prone to bad luck. I'd rather get two 2D obliterator wounds through rather than one D6D lascannon because you just know your opponent will make that 6+ las save. And if they don't you chuck a 1 for damage.

Aelyn wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice.

If he doesn't get to select the dice to show them being good, you don't get to select the dice to show them being bad.

You have deliberately cherry-picked the worst-case roll which has an average of 2, and claimed it to be an "average" roll. In fact, in this specific scenario, it is the 6th worst roll possible out of 27 options - hardly "average", right?

I'm not saying your point isn't valid - sometimes, a bad roll in one stat will make the shooting significantly worse, and sometimes good rolls are wasted due to the target - but it's not exactly honest to claim this is an average roll in this context.

I'm saying neither of us get to pick the dice, and that it CAN go wrong where other weapons may not, not that it always will - how are you missing this?

Them having a good stat profile sometimes, is not a counter to me saying they having a poor profile a bunch of other times, it's literally encompassed by what I'm saying.

Look at Thunder Hammer Captains - ALWAYS a consistent damage profile. There is minimal risk of failure once you start swinging, you don't have to roll 3 dice and hope you get the right S, useable AP and a decent damage roll. They just hit. How good they will be after the patch remains to be seen, I'm just giving it as just the first example I could think of a great AT unit that 8th has seen so far. Look at Overcharged Plasma - look at Armiger AC's - look at Impaler Cannons - look at HBC - these guns just perform, and there is minimal chance of an extra dice roll ruining your day if you hit well and wound well.

Even something with an added element of luck like Armigers, you can't "cherry-pick" a bad roll with average dice for Armigers because it still evens out at 8 shots. And even without an average roll, a poor roll or two in there doesn't ruin your day, you're throwing so many dice at the one number that it's minimal chance of cascading failure. Oblits have an extra element of risk that even with AVERAGE rolls you can whiff, let alone poor ones. That's not a good thing in a competitive setting, even if you do get big payoffs some games, you are losing others because you brought 400 points of AT, and the one of the two units that rolled well to hit completely missed on one of 3 extra added rolls.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
The thing with obliterators is they are hard to mathhammer because you can't take into account intelligent use of rerolls and target selection in your calculations.
If you roll poor D3s for strength and ap you probably don't waste a reroll on the damage D3. And you can choose a target something that the weapon profile fits better too.

I'd just like to say I appreciate this response a lot more than the replies I've received so far, you reasoned well, you didn't deliberately ignore any counter logic to find a new avenue to try prod, and you didn't throw any nonsense accusations, snark, or implications my way, so I appreciate that. I'd like to respond though, that if you have to select a target other than the tank that you ideally wanted to kill, then your AT has failed, and you are now cutting your losses on a flubbed investment. It's the sensible play at this stage of course - but it's a good example of my problem with Oblits.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I also find personally the weight of dice you throw tends to make their average profile gravitate towards average. 12 shots are more stable than 4. And it feels like the three D3 rolls are more stable than that big D6 for your lascannons.
This is even moreso with the EC strat. If my D3 rolls are poor first time round, they probably will be good second time round.

Lascannons always seem so prone to bad luck. I'd rather get two 2D obliterator wounds through rather than one D6D lascannon because you just know your opponent will make that 6+ las save. And if they don't you chuck a 1 for damage.

Yeah. For what it's worth, I don't think Havocs are very good in 8th either. Devastators without Cherubs or Guilliman re-rolls. The fact that they look so good next to Oblits is a testament to how poor Oblits are right now.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice.

If he doesn't get to select the dice to show them being good, you don't get to select the dice to show them being bad.

You have deliberately cherry-picked the worst-case roll which has an average of 2, and claimed it to be an "average" roll. In fact, in this specific scenario, it is the 6th worst roll possible out of 27 options - hardly "average", right?

I'm not saying your point isn't valid - sometimes, a bad roll in one stat will make the shooting significantly worse, and sometimes good rolls are wasted due to the target - but it's not exactly honest to claim this is an average roll in this context.

I'm saying neither of us get to pick the dice, and that it CAN go wrong where other weapons may not, not that it always will - how are you missing this?

Them having a good stat profile sometimes, is not a counter to me saying they having a poor profile a bunch of other times, it's literally encompassed by what I'm saying.

Yes, and if you care to read my post, you will see that I agree with that part of your argument.

What I disagree with is this:

 SHUPPET wrote:

When rolling 3d3, a 2/3/1 result is entirely an average roll.

Those rolls don't give you the mean, median, or mode of EV when shooting against that target, so claiming that they are average rolls is deliberately misleading in this instance. (Those rolls give EV 0.25 damage per hit, compared to actual 'average' results of EV 0.5 damage per hit across the probability space whether taken as (arithmetic) mean or median - mode is 0.33 or 0.5 damage per hit, but mode often behaves a bit strangely.)

It's a pet peeve when people claim something as "average" without clarifying or contextualising - it's about the easiest way to mislead with statistics.

I get what you are saying, but there is a bit of context given, to make it clear what I was saying. Perhaps "middling" is the more appropriate the term I should have used. I'll try to take care to improve my terminology in future

 SHUPPET wrote:
I get what you are saying, but there is a bit of context given, to make it clear what I was saying. Perhaps "middling" is the more appropriate the term I should have used. I'll try to take care to improve my terminology in future

But the problem is you've got the maths backwards. For consistency you want Obliterator. For higher average damage you want Lascannons. Because they have less shots Lascannons have a much higher chance to 'whiff' even taking into account the variable profile of the Oblits.

Vs the classic Knight with Ion Bulwark and Rotate Ion Shields:

An Obliterator does 0.89 damage
Twin Lascannons does 1.03 damage

However, the chance the Obliterator does NO damage is 62% while the Two Lascannons has a much higher 72% chance of doing nothing.

Lets also not forget that the Command reroll exists, slightly mitigating the chance to rolling a low number on a D3 that matters.
Anyone fact that into their "averages"?

Personally, I'd compare 3 Oblits to a Lascannon Pred over Havocs. Similar cost and durability (or rather 1 Pred is closer in durable in most cases to 3 Oblits than 5 Havocs).
12 Shots should yield better results than only 4, especially if you are using a Command reroll to ensure one of your stats rolls high

And so far it looks like 1 Oblit compares to "almost" 2 Lascannons. So 3 Oblits would easily be about 5 Lascannons, for about the cost of a Pred and more durable.
AND Oblits can take on more than just tanks, having the versatility to take on multi-model units.
I find it very hard to believe any argument that says Oblits are not "good". Whether they are "the greatest" is certainly debatable, but they are definitely a "good" unit worthy of any list

-

I've always found them to be a good choice.

When they roll bad they are ok, when they roll well they are amazing, their (now defunct) turn 1 deepstrike was potent and their stratagems and legion traits just made a tough and shooty unit even tougher and shootier.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I get what you are saying, but there is a bit of context given, to make it clear what I was saying. Perhaps "middling" is the more appropriate the term I should have used. I'll try to take care to improve my terminology in future

Fair enough, and like I say I agree with your point that their variable stats increases their variance.

I still think 'middling' would be inappropriate - the example you chose was only in the 22nd percentile for the probability space, after all - but I see what you're saying. Though it is interesting to note that, as you only roll the damage stat once for an entire round of shooting, they do benefit more from a re-roll on damage than most variable-damage guns.

The variance is of course mitigated by the fact that they are shooting multiple turns, over which they are more likely to survive than Havocs and Predators both.

I will say again that having played dozens of CSM games, I don't remember a single game where Havocs and Predators did anything impressive. I can't remember a single game where Obliterators didn't.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I will say again that having played dozens of CSM games, I don't remember a single game where Havocs and Predators did anything impressive. I can't remember a single game where Obliterators didn't.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about them

-

Yeah. Until the deepstriking nerfs Slaaneshi Obliterators where one of the staples of competitive Chaos Builds.
Maybe they have fallen out of favour . That does not mean they aren't good. It just means they aren't appropiate for the present ITC meta.

 Galef wrote:

And so far it looks like 1 Oblit compares to "almost" 2 Lascannons. So 3 Oblits would easily be about 5 Lascannons, for about the cost of a Pred and more durable.

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers from, even with middling rolls you are losing out to damage to 4 Lascannons with Oblits. They are closer to 1 Lascannon EACH than 2.

 TonyH122 wrote:
The variance is of course mitigated by the fact that they are shooting multiple turns, over which they are more likely to survive than Havocs and Predators both.

24" unit with 3 models consistently getting multiple turns of shooting is an anathema in any meta that I'm familiar with, but maybe it's different where you play.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I will say again that having played dozens of CSM games, I don't remember a single game where Havocs and Predators did anything impressive. I can't remember a single game where Obliterators didn't.

Neither are particularly good units either.

 Galas wrote:

Maybe they have fallen out of favour . That does not mean they aren't good. It just means they aren't appropiate for the present ITC meta.

The reason I gave is the reason they have fallen out of favor. Top players have found they can't be relied on in a tournament setting. This has been established well before the DS nerfs, to which they are impacted even heavier. We've heard some of the best Chaos players say this on podcasts, we've heard the same thing stated by people with their ear to the pulse of the competitive meta. I can go back and give some quick stats of how many times CSM is making top 8 to how many times Obliterators appear in recent high level events if you'd like.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. Until the deepstriking nerfs Slaaneshi Obliterators where one of the staples of competitive Chaos Builds.

Chaos has made multiple top 16s at multiple massive events, and not one of these lists has Oblits. This is just objectively wrong. They are far from a staple of Chaos.

That's literally because Mortarion and Magnus are taking up so much space.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's literally because Mortarion and Magnus are taking up so much space.

Are we verifying these statements at all before making them, or just chuckin' em out there and seeing what sticks?





Don Hooson, top 8 BAO (#1 place in fact), Chaos player, no Morty or Magnus

Carlos Kaiser, top 8 BAO, Chaos player, no Morty or Magnus

Michael Timpe, top 16 BAO, Chaos player, Magnus ONLY

Daniel Downer, top 16 Nova, Chaos player, no Morty or Magnus (However, the guy listed his CSM Iron Warriors detachment as "Iron Legion" which is a crime of its own)




I think it's pretty clear your speculation here is mistaken.

Shuppet I'm not discussing that Obliterators aren't used anymore. I was saying that they where used before and for great effect.

Now they aren't used anymore. I don't discuss that. I don't think they are a weak or bad unit. I think they are very strong. A little unreliable, and as you said, you can't count with unreliability if you want to regularly take top tables.

Did those events happen before or after the Deep Strike nerfs in the 1st Big FAQ? Because if they happened after then you didn't really disprove Galas's statement.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Did those events happen before or after the Deep Strike nerfs in the 1st Big FAQ? Because if they happened after then you didn't really disprove Galas's statement.

Both events happened after the first round of deep strike nerfs were, which were brought in over half a year ago. I assumed he was talking about before the most recent Deepstrike nerfs that happened last week, as that's the only nerfs that have come into play since this thread was made, and the only changes that really make sense to reference. I especially got this impression from the statement, and I quote "Wheren't double-shooting slaaneshy Obliterators one of the Chaos Crunchs a couple of months back?" was given, but maybe by that he meant over 6 months ago and never since, I don't know. I will say that this does feel like backpedalling after being proven wrong though, but if we insist that we were reaching back all the way to pre-FAQ 1, I guess I can't disprove that. Referencing a ruleset as far outdated as pre FAQ 1 as your reason for why Oblits are a good unit doesn't make a lot of sense here nor does it have any real relevance to the topic. Maybe they were staples back in the ruleset where rule of 3 wasn't a thing, first turn deepstrikes could happen anywhere on the board, and before both the players and the game designers had thoroughly ironed out what works well and what doesn't, I don't think they were then either though. But as it stands in the current state of 8th edition, they are not competitive staples at all, and it's not because Magnus and Mortarion, which is the statement I posted those events in response to.

I wasn't back pedaling, to be honest I didn't realized those changes where so far ago.

Sometimes I'm even surprised by realizing that 8th edition was released more than one year ago. And as I said in other threads, the "spanish meta" is like, months behind USA meta, so slaaneshi obliterators where still the real hotness here as recent as this summer in some really big tournaments. (Ok, big by spanish standard, 64-120 people. I know compared to 500 person tournaments they seem very small, but our biggest tournament is in 1 and a half month and it has only 360 people on it, and thats the most people it will have, like, a new record)