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 Commissar Benny wrote:
The problem is not IG. It is the way CP is acquired & allowed to be utilized. Until that is addressed, we will continue to repeat history.

Correction - the problem is those units that make up the top soup lists and how they interact with each other, both in terms of generating CP and in terms of psychic powers. Until those units and their interactions are addressed, we will continue to repeat history.

4 ppm Infantry shouldn't exist for any reason.

There are other units in the Guard dex as well as others that are far too efficient.

 Ordana wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Niiru wrote:
The nerf to Fly has also now made IG even stronger, as conscript bubblewrap can now not only defend against ground units... but also flying assault units.

That's right, a cheap blob of conscripts can prevent Raptors, Warp Talons, assault marines...

Hell, that's not even that bad. Cheap conscripts can block JETBIKES. And Grav Tanks.

Valkyries.

A 200 point Heldrake, flying hundreds of meters above the battlefield, flying at near supersonic speeds, finding it's target and preparing to dive from above the clouds and pounce upon its prey... is blocked by a 30 point line of basic humans with potato guns.

*Insert big MASSIVE buzzer*

Units with Fly can still move over models during the Movement Phase.
You can't charge across a screen anymore, you can still move over it.

Page 177 – Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models and
terrain as if they were not there.’

Yes, duh, obviously. But the charge range is a massive part of a units movement. You're essentially saying "the rule is fine, it just means that fly units are now up to 12" slower than they once were but are still paying the same points cost, thats fine! (because I don't use fly units)".


Edit: Also, another glitch with this rule now means that units like jetbikes and DPs can no longer assault units that are hiding in ruins. Hide in a ruin and you're totally safe.

Thanks for assuming things but I play with combat jetbikes myself, and I think its fine. Screens should be able to screen.

And units with Fly can still very much charge a unit in a ruin. Why do you think they can no longer do so?

I mean if you think it's fine that a basic human being is capable of jumping 20 feet in the air and blocking a flying machine / giant winged monster, then that's totally fine. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how stupid it might be.

Now if they introduced new units, that paid an extra premium for the ability to block flyers (which I believe does exist, thought I think they're forgeworld) then I'd have no problem with conscripts paying a few extra points per model to carry nets or long sticks or something to swat flyers out of the sky. It's still ridiculous, but at least it's not a free buff to the unit.

As far as the ruins thing goes, I may be mistaken, but from what I recall non-infantry couldn't end a movement phase upstairs in a ruin unless it could Fly. And as you can no longer fly in the charge phase, then you can't charge and end your charge inside a ruin. (I don't think it applies to the ground floor... only on upper levels. I'd have to check the rulebook though).

Niiru wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Niiru wrote:
The nerf to Fly has also now made IG even stronger, as conscript bubblewrap can now not only defend against ground units... but also flying assault units.

That's right, a cheap blob of conscripts can prevent Raptors, Warp Talons, assault marines...

Hell, that's not even that bad. Cheap conscripts can block JETBIKES. And Grav Tanks.

Valkyries.

A 200 point Heldrake, flying hundreds of meters above the battlefield, flying at near supersonic speeds, finding it's target and preparing to dive from above the clouds and pounce upon its prey... is blocked by a 30 point line of basic humans with potato guns.

*Insert big MASSIVE buzzer*

Units with Fly can still move over models during the Movement Phase.
You can't charge across a screen anymore, you can still move over it.

Page 177 – Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models and
terrain as if they were not there.’

Yes, duh, obviously. But the charge range is a massive part of a units movement. You're essentially saying "the rule is fine, it just means that fly units are now up to 12" slower than they once were but are still paying the same points cost, thats fine! (because I don't use fly units)".


Edit: Also, another glitch with this rule now means that units like jetbikes and DPs can no longer assault units that are hiding in ruins. Hide in a ruin and you're totally safe.

Thanks for assuming things but I play with combat jetbikes myself, and I think its fine. Screens should be able to screen.

And units with Fly can still very much charge a unit in a ruin. Why do you think they can no longer do so?

I mean if you think it's fine that a basic human being is capable of jumping 20 feet in the air and blocking a flying machine / giant winged monster, then that's totally fine. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how stupid it might be.

Now if they introduced new units, that paid an extra premium for the ability to block flyers (which I believe does exist, thought I think they're forgeworld) then I'd have no problem with conscripts paying a few extra points per model to carry nets or long sticks or something to swat flyers out of the sky. It's still ridiculous, but at least it's not a free buff to the unit.

As far as the ruins thing goes, I may be mistaken, but from what I recall non-infantry couldn't end a movement phase upstairs in a ruin unless it could Fly. And as you can no longer fly in the charge phase, then you can't charge and end your charge inside a ruin. (I don't think it applies to the ground floor... only on upper levels. I'd have to check the rulebook though).

We're playing a game of WW2 tanks, genetically engineered super humans wielding chainsaws and demonic flying robot chicks. Realism isn't something I give a gak about. Is this better for the game yes/no

And you still have the Fly keyword in the charge phase. You just can't ignore terrain and models like everyone else so yes, you can charge into a ruin, you can even go strait up to the top floor and fight someone there. You just need to once again measure for vertical movement.

Can we stop with the drama threads like this? Literally all this is doing is starting drama before there was any.

Agreed, ig players will just gaslight everyone anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed, ig players will just gaslight everyone anyway.

Maybe one day those mean Guard players will let you into the cool kids club.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed, ig players will just gaslight everyone anyway.

Maybe one day those mean Guard players will let you into the cool kids club.

Gotta buy 500 lasgun models and 100 tanks before you can join that club, as far as I understand.

Then you, too, will have the right to complain and gaslight to your heart's content.

Niiru wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Niiru wrote:
The nerf to Fly has also now made IG even stronger, as conscript bubblewrap can now not only defend against ground units... but also flying assault units.

That's right, a cheap blob of conscripts can prevent Raptors, Warp Talons, assault marines...

Hell, that's not even that bad. Cheap conscripts can block JETBIKES. And Grav Tanks.

Valkyries.

A 200 point Heldrake, flying hundreds of meters above the battlefield, flying at near supersonic speeds, finding it's target and preparing to dive from above the clouds and pounce upon its prey... is blocked by a 30 point line of basic humans with potato guns.

*Insert big MASSIVE buzzer*

Units with Fly can still move over models during the Movement Phase.
You can't charge across a screen anymore, you can still move over it.

Page 177 – Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models and
terrain as if they were not there.’

Yes, duh, obviously. But the charge range is a massive part of a units movement. You're essentially saying "the rule is fine, it just means that fly units are now up to 12" slower than they once were but are still paying the same points cost, thats fine! (because I don't use fly units)".

Edit: Also, another glitch with this rule now means that units like jetbikes and DPs can no longer assault units that are hiding in ruins. Hide in a ruin and you're totally safe.

The new rule doesn't delete the FLY keyword during the Charge Phase.

At least read the rules before you complain.

 Arbitrator wrote:
People have made their mind up about the Guard Boogeyman the same way people continue to revile Tau even an edition later for the sin of being good against Space Marines.

When CA no doubt makes CP in-faction only, people will still complain.

As someone who came to play Tau during 8th I can attest to this. I've actually gotten sneers from people just for opening my model case.

Astra Militarum will continue to be Blammed

Problem is that IG is just too points-efficient, It's ridiculous how many shots-per-turn you can cram into a list, and in 8th raw weight of fire is very powerful with the 6+ is a guaranteed wound on anything rule. I think it's pretty much agreed on by most people that IG is the most powerful mono-faction.

I'm not into tournament stuff, but in more casual games IG are very hard to counter. They bring the most firepower to the table point for point, are good at screening, and if you do get in charge distance of a tank Defensive Gunners makes overwatch abolutely lethal (try charging that LR Executioner with plasma sponsons with 6d3 plasma shots and a possible Lascannon as well when it overwatches at 5+). On top of that they are easy to play at a half-decent level (obvious unit synergies, basic gameplay consists of point gun at appropriate target and don't position like an idiot). The most obvious counter to IG would be to outshoot them... which is nearly impossible.

 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

Niiru wrote:
The nerf to Fly has also now made IG even stronger, as conscript bubblewrap can now not only defend against ground units... but also flying assault units.

That's right, a cheap blob of conscripts can prevent Raptors, Warp Talons, assault marines...

Hell, that's not even that bad. Cheap conscripts can block JETBIKES. And Grav Tanks.

Valkyries.

A 200 point Heldrake, flying hundreds of meters above the battlefield, flying at near supersonic speeds, finding it's target and preparing to dive from above the clouds and pounce upon its prey... is blocked by a 30 point line of basic humans with potato guns.

Are you really charging anything with grav tanks or valkyries? Fly can still move over units in the movement phase.

Change grav tank and Valkyrie for Bloodthirster and Flyrant and that sentence will make a lot more sense. In a "real" scenario those things would charge straight through those Guardsmen (wings or not, come to think of it) to nom on the shiny tank behind them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


That list sort of says it all. Tau is a close second, but they can't ally in to Knights. Mechanicus is, too, but has nowhere near the synergy as IG. Tyranids have a save that is half as good and the gun is less than half as useful unless you pay twice the cost of IS. Wyches ain't got guns.

Tau is my main force and although it would be nice to have non fire warrior options that are viable for fluffy farsight lists, they do a great job at being the necessary bodies. 5*6 models with their volley fire are amazing at holding a base, fine for screening, and tough to outshoot as infantry. I could pay 1pt more for the pulse rifle over the pulse carbine, but generally they are exactly what troops should be in a ranged focused codex. Now for internal consistency gun drones are better T and more consistent 4 shots at 18" for less than 2x the price, or stealth suits are 1 better save and wound for double again, or piranhas are well too susceptible to anti-vehicle guns to care about at 70+pts.

I'm not sure due to lack of firsthand exp but shouldn't guardsmen in a similar position? How is their internal balance?

The soup issue with these models is imagine that necrons could ally with T'au. Why bother with immortals and crypteks? T'au have the shooty and bodies down, skip straight to c'tan spam. Guardsmen can do that with custodes/knights/SM/assassins etc. I feel like IG should want baneblades as their titan but we aren't seeing that as much as knights.

I also run chaos and am not happy being forced by efficiency to run cultists, i use my kroot models for em. It's not so much that the 15pts to upgrade to a marine unit is too points hungry it's that marines lack quantity of shots or efficacy of CC damage to be worth taking. In that regard a marine buff would help both sides reduce reliance on chaff for casual at least. Until then we're stuck with IG being leagues ahead of their soup role. Ad Mech might catch up if engineseers were useful in any way, like a version that buffs CC and another that buffs T.

 Togusa wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
People have made their mind up about the Guard Boogeyman the same way people continue to revile Tau even an edition later for the sin of being good against Space Marines.

When CA no doubt makes CP in-faction only, people will still complain.

As someone who came to play Tau during 8th I can attest to this. I've actually gotten sneers from people just for opening my model case.

That's fine. What matters is wether they were sneering at you at the end of the game.

Pretty sure IG will "still be the problem" because the standard Catachan brigade is probably the best thing in the game right now. Catachans are the best screens, great objective holders, do great shooting and are great in assault too. You also bag mortars which are excellent, some cheap psychic and some more area denial and bags of CP in a world of 3 detachments.

In terms of the meta the only real hit as I see it is to smash captains so they are probably on the chopping block to find something different if anything is. With that said some testing is required, as the raw power is still there and efficiently taking something important off the table will always tend to be valuable.

Its also perhaps an odd thought but I think the scouts are a very nice thing to include in the list. More area denial, if you can get them on objectives straight away your opponent has to deal with them or potentially see the game run away with them. Scouts are by no means tough, but you really don't want to prioritize killing them when facing this list.

In an all Imperial Soup All the Time Imperial Soup meta I could maybe see the Captains getting cut - because you have the body count to screen charges for days - but its hard to see what you would plug in that's remotely as good for the points.

So all in all I expect a fairly unmodified Imperial Soup will endure until CA hopefully shakes things up.

 Arbitrator wrote:
People have made their mind up about the Guard Boogeyman the same way people continue to revile Tau even an edition later for the sin of being good against Space Marines.

If it helps, I don't revile Tau for being good against Marines during an edition or two.

Nah, I revile them for their aesthetics.

The Kroot are still cool, though.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Even if the Guard CP's were uneable I cannot get better board control with the Imperium Keyword for that few points.

And this is why, as I've said over and over again, there needs to be an actual cost to taking Allies - so that you can't cherry-pick the best units from different books with no penalty over a mono army.

Or perhaps (a shocking though!) one army should not have units that are just flat out better than options in other books and are always taken if possible?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Astra Militarum will continue to be Blammed

And they should. Lets see what CA brings.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Astra Militarum will continue to be Blammed

And they should. Lets see what CA brings.

Guardsmen need the BLAM. It's lore friendly too.

Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

If Guard units are the yard stick for balanced, a lot of units across multiple codex's and even FW indexes need points drops of 20%.

Ice_can wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

If Guard units are the yard stick for balanced, a lot of units across multiple codex's and even FW indexes need points drops of 20%.

Nah, the IG units that need a few points more are:

1) Basilisks, about 10-15 points
2) Infantry squads about 0,6 points, so i could see it going to 5 or staying where they are.
3) Company and platoon commanders both 10 points.

The super heavies should all get looked at too.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Astra Militarum will continue to be Blammed

Flashing back to the original Dawn of War Winter Assault commissar blam sound effect.

Spoletta wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

If Guard units are the yard stick for balanced, a lot of units across multiple codex's and even FW indexes need points drops of 20%.

Nah, the IG units that need a few points more are:

1) Basilisks, about 10-15 points
2) Infantry squads about 0,6 points, so i could see it going to 5 or staying where they are.
3) Company and platoon commanders both 10 points.

The super heavies should all get looked at too.

Mortars 100% need a price increase.
9d6 48" s4 shots that don't need LoS for 100 points is retardedly stupid.
The other weapon team options are probably fine so I would increase the cost of Mortars to 10, if not more.

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

But if IG works right now, wouldn't it be better to fix all the other armies and not destroy what IG have? When someone has a car with 10+ damaged parts and a good engine, the fixing does not start with breaking he engine.

I have no idea what GW would have to do make IG stop being good though. Even if they buff the cost by 1 they are still great. It would have to be some sort of special rule that they can't block stuff, being just unarmored frail humans and all across points hikes, debuff to Ld and only God knows what else.

What are people's thoughts on Scions? They don't need a price hike, do they? I haven't seen any big mathhammer on them.

Spoletta wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

If Guard units are the yard stick for balanced, a lot of units across multiple codex's and even FW indexes need points drops of 20%.

Nah, the IG units that need a few points more are:

1) Basilisks, about 10-15 points
2) Infantry squads about 0,6 points, so i could see it going to 5 or staying where they are.
3) Company and platoon commanders both 10 points.

The super heavies should all get looked at too.

Whirlwinds need to be cheaper, predators need to be cheaper, vindicators need to be a lot cheaper, marines need to be cheaper.
Hammerheads need to be cheaper, Firewarriors need to be cheaper, kroot need to be cheaper.
Heck even Sicarans and other FW stuff need price drops to compete with IG codex.

As they all loose out to units you haven't listed so presumably that implies you think they are ok.

Heck even fellblades and falchions need price drops compaired to their IG equivalents.

As to scions now that they are turn 2 deepstrike only they are probably a lot lower on the list if problem units

 Crimson wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Even if the Guard CP's were uneable I cannot get better board control with the Imperium Keyword for that few points.

And this is why, as I've said over and over again, there needs to be an actual cost to taking Allies - so that you can't cherry-pick the best units from different books with no penalty over a mono army.

Or perhaps (a shocking though!) one army should not have units that are just flat out better than options in other books and are always taken if possible?

I see you're burning the same strawman you use every time anyone brings up Soup.

I'm surprised it isn't a pile of ash at this point.

 Crimson wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Even if the Guard CP's were uneable I cannot get better board control with the Imperium Keyword for that few points.

And this is why, as I've said over and over again, there needs to be an actual cost to taking Allies - so that you can't cherry-pick the best units from different books with no penalty over a mono army.

Or perhaps (a shocking though!) one army should not have units that are just flat out better than options in other books and are always taken if possible?

Lets be real here that's not happening and it would not be a good thing even if it did. It would destroy faction identity, some factions like Tau are just made not to have good assault units just like how on the other hand some factions like deamons are not made to have good shooting.

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

But if IG works right now, wouldn't it be better to fix all the other armies and not destroy what IG have? When someone has a car with 10+ damaged parts and a good engine, the fixing does not start with breaking he engine.

I have no idea what GW would have to do make IG stop being good though. Even if they buff the cost by 1 they are still great. It would have to be some sort of special rule that they can't block stuff, being just unarmored frail humans and all across points hikes, debuff to Ld and only God knows what else.

If GW tried to make other armies as good as the currently best army, after 3 CA releases, some armies would end up having troops costing 1 ppm.

Trollbert wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Astra militarum will probably receive some point nerfs in CA. Not many, because it's not like they have any unit really over the top (except artemis hellhounds, but that's FW), but in general probably some little point hikes here and there.

But if IG works right now, wouldn't it be better to fix all the other armies and not destroy what IG have? When someone has a car with 10+ damaged parts and a good engine, the fixing does not start with breaking he engine.

I have no idea what GW would have to do make IG stop being good though. Even if they buff the cost by 1 they are still great. It would have to be some sort of special rule that they can't block stuff, being just unarmored frail humans and all across points hikes, debuff to Ld and only God knows what else.

If GW tried to make other armies as good as the currently best army, after 3 CA releases, some armies would end up having troops costing 1 ppm.

Points aren't everything. They could give them extra rules. For example tacticals could get a buff to their fire power, or defense.