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This idea that Primarcs are these unkillable gods that can never be challenged by anyone who is not a Primarch is stupid and needs to die.

I'd prefer a story where Abaddon loses the 1 v 1 fight with Guilliman but out plays him in the larger battle by having a better strategy. To me that is arguably better than betting him down in a fight since Bobby G prides himself on strategy and logistics and fits with Abaddon's characterization of playing the long game and having plans come to fruition over time. Suckering him into a battle that costs him the war.

As for the idea that only Primarchs can kill Primarchs that's sorta baked into the setting, especially after the HH series. It's not impossible for other things to take them down, but it takes a lot and the only actual example of a non primarch killing one is Curze essentially committing suicide by assassin.

Please, the Emperor was almost killed by an ork. Primarcs are just big blokes, punch them hard enough and they go down.

I personally interpret that story as the Emperor gas lighting Horus. O no dad is in trouble right before he makes me warmaster after a campaign that was my finest hour. Then I saved the Emperor of Mankind right before he retires from the campaign. No way that was a set up to elevate Horus and give him a confidence boost and solidify his selection as warmaster.

The Emperor has the power to summon a star, it's not likely he was in any actual danger from an Ork.

I've never gotten on with the notion that the Emperor deliberately engineered that moment. It would be too transparent to Horus, and if anything, nearly getting killed so close to the climax of the great crusade could have shaken the Emperor up enough to make him want to bow out. Him leaving the crusade through fear makes for a far more compelling story than a manufactured ego boost for an exceptionally accomplished general.

 JamesY wrote:
I've never gotten on with the notion that the Emperor deliberately engineered that moment. It would be too transparent to Horus, and if anything, nearly getting killed so close to the climax of the great crusade could have shaken the Emperor up enough to make him want to bow out. Him leaving the crusade through fear makes for a far more compelling story than a manufactured ego boost for an exceptionally accomplished general.

The emperor definitely needs more flaws if they are going flesh him out as they have been.

That's why I'd rather they don't flesh him out to much. Anything they write is probably not going to live up to expectations. Personally I don't want to get anything from his point of in the Heresy, even the final confrontation with Horus should be from Horus's POV.

Andykp wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I've never gotten on with the notion that the Emperor deliberately engineered that moment. It would be too transparent to Horus, and if anything, nearly getting killed so close to the climax of the great crusade could have shaken the Emperor up enough to make him want to bow out. Him leaving the crusade through fear makes for a far more compelling story than a manufactured ego boost for an exceptionally accomplished general.

The emperor definitely needs more flaws if they are going flesh him out as they have been.

more flaws? dude the HH is pretty much a litany of how big a moron the emperor is at this point

@BD in fairness, he nearly conquered the entire universe and the webway. I'm not sure moron is the right word for the mistakes that were made, and it could never have been accomplished without a few errors.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If Abaddon would choose daemonhood, it would have to be in pretty extreme situation. Like if he was leading a Black Crusade and on a cusp of a significant victory, but is confronted by Guilliman. And as they duel, it will become apparent that Guilliman is gonna win and ruin Abaddon's plans, and at that point the gods will whisper to him and promise the victory if he just accept the daemonhood. And he might, and then crush Guilliman.

In that fight, my money is still on Bobby G. We have more than a few examples of Primarchs winning against demon princes and with one exception, only a Primarch has killed another Primarch.

the Emperor is just a man.

I think they’ve gone too far with th HH anyway. Made it very boring. The emperor should be a big mystery. But if they are fleshing him out he should be worse than a moron, he should be a coward and the opposite of what he is portrayed as in the current setting. I like the idea some one had about the emperor just being a front man for malcador who was the real architect of the great crusade. The emperor was all a facade.

I also think the gods should just make abadon a demon prince. It’d be funny if he didn’t want it too. Make him more bitter.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Well no the Emperor definitely stole the power, Chaos didn't actually want him to, because the Emperor was supposed to tell humanity about the Chaos gods in return for his powers. Chaos would have taken the Imperium far more easily if the Emperor had done that. Plus he is the anathema so I doubt they'd give him a hand.

We do not know what emps' deal with the chaos gods was. Only that he tried to renege on it. What chaos tells Lorgar during Aurelian is flat out a lie. The eldar didn't die because they didn't worship Slaanesh. They died because they created it. The whole knowledge of choas saves you is bs.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Would he even need to go to Molech to ascend to Daemonhood anyway? Like, doesn't he pretty much live on the frontier of Chaos itself, what with being in the Eye and all?

Besides, I don't forsee anything particularly interesting happening to Abaddon before GW decides what they are going to do with the other Daemon Primarchs.

Molech is a direct route to the chaos gods, so maybe they can give more power directly.


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 Earth127 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Well no the Emperor definitely stole the power, Chaos didn't actually want him to, because the Emperor was supposed to tell humanity about the Chaos gods in return for his powers. Chaos would have taken the Imperium far more easily if the Emperor had done that. Plus he is the anathema so I doubt they'd give him a hand.

We do not know what emps' deal with the chaos gods was. Only that he tried to renege on it. What chaos tells Lorgar during Aurelian is flat out a lie. The eldar didn't die because they didn't worship Slaanesh. They died because they created it. The whole knowledge of choas saves you is bs.

We know he took power, we don't know what kind of power.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
If the portal was left accessible after the Heresy perhaps Sureka travelled back there to make sure the portal was closed for good. She had the means but a rather large taloned hand stopped her last tiime.

No she woke up alive after she was killed by Horus and closed the gate.


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 Crimson wrote:
Please, the Emperor was almost killed by an ork. Primarcs are just big blokes, punch them hard enough and they go down.

Because he was powering and directing the astronomican at the same time as leading and fighting at the head of the great crusade. We don't even know that he'd be killed by that Ork, he's probably a perpetual.


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 Formosa wrote:
Plus abbadon has drach’nyen the blade that can literally kill the emperor and if he were to somehow release the Deamon inside... game over bobby g

Yeah cause the Emps already admitted to Drach'nyen that he would die by his hand, just not at that time he talked with him.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'd prefer a story where Abaddon loses the 1 v 1 fight with Guilliman but out plays him in the larger battle by having a better strategy. To me that is arguably better than betting him down in a fight since Bobby G prides himself on strategy and logistics and fits with Abaddon's characterization of playing the long game and having plans come to fruition over time. Suckering him into a battle that costs him the war.

As for the idea that only Primarchs can kill Primarchs that's sorta baked into the setting, especially after the HH series. It's not impossible for other things to take them down, but it takes a lot and the only actual example of a non primarch killing one is Curze essentially committing suicide by assassin.

Kruze was killed by a mortal human.


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 JamesY wrote:
I've never gotten on with the notion that the Emperor deliberately engineered that moment. It would be too transparent to Horus, and if anything, nearly getting killed so close to the climax of the great crusade could have shaken the Emperor up enough to make him want to bow out. Him leaving the crusade through fear makes for a far more compelling story than a manufactured ego boost for an exceptionally accomplished general.

Yeah I don't buy that, he's less omnipotent as people think.


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Andykp wrote:
I think they’ve gone too far with th HH anyway. Made it very boring. The emperor should be a big mystery. But if they are fleshing him out he should be worse than a moron, he should be a coward and the opposite of what he is portrayed as in the current setting. I like the idea some one had about the emperor just being a front man for malcador who was the real architect of the great crusade. The emperor was all a facade.

I also think the gods should just make abadon a demon prince. It’d be funny if he didn’t want it too. Make him more bitter.

Yeah I don't actually like the Molech story, having him get powers from the Chaos gods, just makes him appear like any other perpetual that managed to trick the gods to become a god.

Slight point of clarification, Kurze allowed himself to die by a mortals hand, they didn't have an out and out fight. He essentially committed suicide by cop/assassin, unless your really going to argue a random imperial assassin could match a primach in one on one combat that they were actually taking seriously.

It's not that the primarchs can't die to other things, it would just take a lot to do it. Hell Angron squated a titan and Lorgar took a hell of beating from getting hit by a titans main weapon but it still didn't kill him. They are incredibly durable.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Slight point of clarification, Kurze allowed himself to die by a mortals hand, they didn't have an out and out fight. He essentially committed suicide by cop/assassin, unless your really going to argue a random imperial assassin could match a primach in one on one combat that they were actually taking seriously.

It's not that the primarchs can't die to other things, it would just take a lot to do it. Hell Angron squated a titan and Lorgar took a hell of beating from getting hit by a titans main weapon but it still didn't kill him. They are incredibly durable.

Yeah, but that's from a Black Library books where a Librarian can jump on orbit and cut a spaceship in half with a sword.

As with all 40k lore I always encourage people to come to their own conclusions and if they don't like a particular story or interpretation that's fair game. If you don't like the Primarchs being that strong that's fair.

For me, the Primarchs have to be over powered to make sense in the setting and have been worth it. The Emperor went through a lot of trouble to make them and their actions changed the galaxy.

In a galaxy as big and wide as 40k, for 20 champions to make a difference, they have to be supernatural strong, smart, and charismatic.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Slight point of clarification, Kurze allowed himself to die by a mortals hand, they didn't have an out and out fight. He essentially committed suicide by cop/assassin, unless your really going to argue a random imperial assassin could match a primach in one on one combat that they were actually taking seriously.

It's not that the primarchs can't die to other things, it would just take a lot to do it. Hell Angron squated a titan and Lorgar took a hell of beating from getting hit by a titans main weapon but it still didn't kill him. They are incredibly durable.

Allowing himself to die still proves that a mortal can kill a Primarch. Assassins are not random warriors, they are some of the deadliest warriors in the Imperium. Saying only a Primarch can kill a Primarc suggests that they are invulnerable to a high degree. If its a matter of skill statistically they would be beat by a mortal even though it would be highly unlikely. They can die from heavy weapons, a mortal wielding a lascannon could kill them. In hand to hand combat they are virtually impossible to kill unless be another Primarch but saying they can only be killed by another Primarch is just silly. They can take titans on, but but they are more strong than they are invulnerable, apart from Vulkan. They can be stabbed by normal humans, Alpharius was stabbed by a guardsmen and yes it was Alpharius, before someone say 'but was it really.'

At no point did I say a mortal couldn't kill one. I just noted it would be incredibly difficult, and in universe there are very few things that could take them in a straight fight. Kurze essentially sat there while he died since to him that gave him the moral victory. If he wanted to fight back, she'd be dead. This is the same guy who gave the run around to three legions for months while pilling up bodies.

In game wise, we have stats for most of them and we can see how tough they are. Good luck taking one down with a Las cannon, most of them will shrug that off.

And we were talking about a Daemon Prince version of Abaddon here, that is pretty damn far above the normal human on a power scale... I can easily see that the daemon juice could allow him to outperform a Primarch; he is insanely strong already as a 'normal' Chaos Marine.

O, that I agree with. Bobby G would be in trouble if Abaddon let go and gave himself over fully to chaos. But base Adabbon vs most of the Primarchs without back up I don't think it be one sided but my money is still on the Primarchs.

Hell Russ nearly managed to kill Super Horus and only lost because he decided talking to your insane corrupt brother in the middle of a fight is a good idea. That's one mistake Abaddon would definitely not make and likely one of the reasons he dropped clone Horus. Abaddon doesn't do regret.

Abaddon doesn't go one on one against Primarchs.

He drowns them in swarms of his least trusted allies, then once they are subdued he assimilates them under his command, or he sends home their fist in a box

HoundsofDemos wrote:
At no point did I say a mortal couldn't kill one. I just noted it would be incredibly difficult, and in universe there are very few things that could take them in a straight fight. Kurze essentially sat there while he died since to him that gave him the moral victory. If he wanted to fight back, she'd be dead. This is the same guy who gave the run around to three legions for months while pilling up bodies.

In game wise, we have stats for most of them and we can see how tough they are. Good luck taking one down with a Las cannon, most of them will shrug that off.

True but, a direct hit in the face by a lascannon would without doubt kill a Primarch.


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nareik wrote:
Abaddon doesn't go one on one against Primarchs.

He drowns them in swarms of his least trusted allies, then once they are subdued he assimilates them under his command, or he sends home their fist in a box

Well he killed a clone of Horus and the way BL writer have written him and the rules GW has given them, I think they are moving towards the 'Abaddon is a clone' theory.

BTW regarding the emperor on Molech, according to Plague war, the shard of the emperor's power bound within his sword, is sufficant to utterly destroy a deamon, with no ability for said deamon to be restored, the idea that chaos gave him this power in a deal that went sour is rediculas if you consider that, chaos won't give a mortal that level of power, not unless they're giant idiots.

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW regarding the emperor on Molech, according to Plague war, the shard of the emperor's power bound within his sword, is sufficant to utterly destroy a deamon, with no ability for said deamon to be restored, the idea that chaos gave him this power in a deal that went sour is rediculas if you consider that, chaos won't give a mortal that level of power, not unless they're giant idiots.

He could have had incredible powers before he made the deal. From what Erebus. Horus, the red angel and Ingethel the ascended say, he needed the power to make the Primarchs, the daemons also say that the Primarchs are theirs and came from the warp and will all return to them in the end. As for going sour, how were they to know that Emperor wouldn't have kept his deal, they make deals with mortals all the time and they make deals before they accept and many denied them, so its not like they can read their minds, plus psykers can resist psychic powers, though the gods are obviously far more powerful, maybe the Emperor indulged the though of power to make them think he was conflicted, who knows.

only an IDIOT gives someone the power to destroy them in a deal.

yes it's likely the emperor may have gotten some key to the primarch project (on the other hand why did he wait so long if he got the key that early? something doesn't add up) but I content the emperor didn't gain any personal power on Molech.

BrianDavion wrote:
only an IDIOT gives someone the power to destroy them in a deal.

yes it's likely the emperor may have gotten some key to the primarch project (on the other hand why did he wait so long if he got the key that early? something doesn't add up) but I content the emperor didn't gain any personal power on Molech.

The emperor can destroy daemons, nothing is said about his ability to kill the Chaos gods themselves, as if the gods would care if he could kill a daemon or two. He waited so long because of the warpstorms, what good are the Primarchs and the Legio Astartes if they are stuck on earth, he had to wait and the Emperor is calculated, he sets out his plans as per his needs, which is why he never made the Astartes more powerful than they were, he made them to fulfil a purpose. How do you know he didn't get any personal power. He could only get to Molech on a spaceship and he designed it so it could only go one way, then he was able to get back to earth, seems like he got power.

Actually, that onr way part seems way more important if you wanted to bring someone with you to stand guard and make sure they can't leave...

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Actually, that onr way part seems way more important if you wanted to bring someone with you to stand guard and make sure they can't leave...

Then why would he need a ship to get there in the first place...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Actually, that onr way part seems way more important if you wanted to bring someone with you to stand guard and make sure they can't leave...

Then why would he need a ship to get there in the first place...

because, as Carlo notes, it's possiable he didn't arrive on ship because he needed to, it's possiable he brought someone or something WITH HIM, and left it there, we already know that the emperor was capable of traveling across space before he ever set foot on Molech. because he had, apparently stored the dragon on Mars after defeating it in ~300 AD. it's possiable he was limited and could not acheive intersteller travel sure but we should consider other possiabilities

The Emperor was very conservative with his powers. We saw a few flashes of power, making a legion kneel, summoning a star to hold the webway gate, what ever he had to do to beat up the void dragon. But he seems to prefer to not use them unless he really had to. His most common use of his powers is his various glamours which power wise is pretty low key. To me that fits his vision of wanting to get humanity away from having rely on the warp.

He more than anyone knew that it only took one bad dice roll to perils and the the bigger the pull out of the warp, more risk. Could he have transported himself and others across the galaxy, probably. Was that worth the risk when he and a bunch of other ageless beings get there the slow way while he's planning to steal from the chaos gods. If anything, the slow way doesn't sound like a bad plan.