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...Aren't Space Marines sterile anyways? I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere.

Aaaand I just realized I'm getting back to the Forbidden Topic. Post deleted in 3... 2...

The Rogue Trader box shows us that GW is already going in the right direction.

A major Guard overhaul is the real key to this whole issue.

Andykp wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Andykp wrote:
We have one. One female model in the human range who isn’t in a corset or Lycra (or less of us count the prisoners). A medic from the rogue trader box.


I’ll say it again. 1 model.

Nope. It's at least 4. In addition to the Dark Eldar Prisoners (who are humans), we also have...


No corset there!

For the record, I own almost all of the metal female minis the GW has made available since 3E

There are more, but I'm waiting for you to keep putting your foot in your mouth, insisting that there's just one.

I did initially ask about them in plastic. So that is just one. And if that’s what you are doing then you are missing the point massively. However many it is, it isn’t enough. By a LONG way. And the examples you have given aren’t exactly perfect examples of inclusion and diversity are they. So carry on by all means but at some point you will have to admit that women are under represented in 40k. Or represented in a negative way. (I’m looking at repentia sisters things).

Why are we discounting the RT exactly? She's wearing REGULAR CLOTHING for Imperial high society, not armour. Why is a corset in this situation somehow a bad thing?

Geez, it's like people will move goal posts over and over again to preserve a narrative.

The Rogue Trader box is a clear step in the right direction, personally - not only does it have female models but it has female models with distinct styles and personalities conveyed through their appearance, from the impractically fashionable Rogue Trader herself to the far more serious doctor.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Rogue Trader box is a clear step in the right direction, personally - not only does it have female models but it has female models with distinct styles and personalities conveyed through their appearance, from the impractically fashionable Rogue Trader herself to the far more serious doctor.

I don't think the RT's fashion is anymore impractical than this is:


I mean it's strange to be wearing a large brimmed hat with a veil, but I won't fault her for it.

The Imperium is egalitarian? Sometimes I wonder if I read the same fluff other people read. Don't tell the psykers that are fed to the Big E's vanity that they have the same fundamental rights as a Planetary Governor, whatever you do.

The Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state. It could not be less egalitarian if it tried.

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Contemporary women's fashion being, of course, totally free from any arguments of oppression/repression.

My point was that most the women been in corseted armour portrayed a negative and objectified image of women in the setting. So a female model in high heals, an actual corset and a veil doesn’t really disprove my point. It kind of adds to it.

I get corsets might be fashionable in 40k circles but would all the women really wear them? All the time? The men in the setting wear a huge diversity of styles but the women all totter in on their heals in a corset of some sort.

I mean "impractical" from the standards of somebody who's going to be ducking behind a crate and shooting chaos mutants. She's a high-class aristocrat so looking good is more important to her than wearing sturdy, flexible military gear even though the latter would reasonable be more helpful in what she does; this is the kind of thing that a lot of franchises do with their Exactly One female character, which is why it's nice that the doctor is also there to provide contrast and a different personality type.

Andykp wrote:
My point was that most the women been in corseted armour portrayed a negative and objectified image of women in the setting. So a female model in high heals, an actual corset and a veil doesn’t really disprove my point. It kind of adds to it.

I get corsets might be fashionable in 40k circles but would all the women really wear them? All the time? The men in the setting wear a huge diversity of styles but the women all totter in on their heals in a corset of some sort.

I disagree that wearing a corset automatically objectifies anyone. Then again I don't assume women are objectified based on how they dress, so take that with a grain of salt I guess.

And the huge range of style for male models? Isn't it all coats and big hats or robes and big hats if they're not wearing power amour?

Strange gothic fashion is eminently appropriate to 40k. If you don’t care for this stuff, 40k may not be your thing. That said, Guardswomen would not be dressed in strange personality-expressing fashion but rather personality-erasing AdMunitorum BDUs.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The Imperium is egalitarian? Sometimes I wonder if I read the same fluff other people read. Don't tell the psykers that are fed to the Big E's vanity that they have the same fundamental rights as a Planetary Governor, whatever you do.

The Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state. It could not be less egalitarian if it tried.

That was pretty much a brain fart on my part, yes; I meant "men and women are generally treated by the same standards" rather than, well, what egalitarian actually means. xp

There is inherently nothing wrong with corsets and high heels etc (can we have some men in these as well?) but it is kinda problem if that's the majority of the representation. If there were some tough guardswomen in more practical(ish) gear too it wouldn't be an issue.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The Imperium is egalitarian? Sometimes I wonder if I read the same fluff other people read. Don't tell the psykers that are fed to the Big E's vanity that they have the same fundamental rights as a Planetary Governor, whatever you do.

The Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state. It could not be less egalitarian if it tried.

That was pretty much a brain fart on my part, yes; I meant "men and women are generally treated by the same standards" rather than, well, what egalitarian actually means. xp

The standard being that 99% of them are illiterate and uneducated masses that serve the grinding gears of the Imperium.

 Manchu wrote:
Strange gothic fashion is eminently appropriate to 40k. If you don’t care for this stuff, 40k may not be your thing. That said, Guardswomen would not be dressed in strange personality-expressing fashion but rather personality-erasing AdMunitorum BDUs.

We don’t have any female guards women and that’s my point. You can keep the flavour of 40k and still have women in it. As it stands there are too few and they are all of the same trope. That is a failing and the numbers of female players is a consequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
There is inherently nothing wrong with corsets and high heels etc (can we have some men in these as well?) but it is kinda problem if that's the majority of the representation. If there were some tough guardswomen in more practical(ish) gear too it wouldn't be an issue.

This.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The Imperium is egalitarian? Sometimes I wonder if I read the same fluff other people read. Don't tell the psykers that are fed to the Big E's vanity that they have the same fundamental rights as a Planetary Governor, whatever you do.

The Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state. It could not be less egalitarian if it tried.

That was pretty much a brain fart on my part, yes; I meant "men and women are generally treated by the same standards" rather than, well, what egalitarian actually means. xp

The standard being that 99% of them are illiterate and uneducated masses that serve the grinding gears of the Imperium.

For the 99% yes, and the 1% are also generally equal to each other; female Inquisitors, Tech-Priests, etc. are all common and not considered to be unusual in any way. It's only the Space Marines and the Custodes that are a boy's club, everyone else has an equal opportunity to die for the Emperor.

 Crimson wrote:
There is inherently nothing wrong with corsets and high heels etc (can we have some men in these as well?) but it is kinda problem if that's the majority of the representation. If there were some tough guardswomen in more practical(ish) gear too it wouldn't be an issue.

Well we do have the Escher Gang who wear no corsets:


[In before the "halter tops objectify women" complaints happen]

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The Imperium is egalitarian? Sometimes I wonder if I read the same fluff other people read. Don't tell the psykers that are fed to the Big E's vanity that they have the same fundamental rights as a Planetary Governor, whatever you do.

The Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state. It could not be less egalitarian if it tried.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contemporary women's fashion being, of course, totally free from any arguments of oppression/repression.

It is egalitarian when it wants to be. When it needs recruits, it is very egalitarian. Fasists are all for dividing tasks.

can we have some men in these as well?

What is the eldar line, for 250?

Andykp wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Strange gothic fashion is eminently appropriate to 40k. If you don’t care for this stuff, 40k may not be your thing. That said, Guardswomen would not be dressed in strange personality-expressing fashion but rather personality-erasing AdMunitorum BDUs.

We don’t have any female guards women and that’s my point. You can keep the flavour of 40k and still have women in it. As it stands there are too few and they are all of the same trope. That is a failing and the numbers of female players is a consequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
There is inherently nothing wrong with corsets and high heels etc (can we have some men in these as well?) but it is kinda problem if that's the majority of the representation. If there were some tough guardswomen in more practical(ish) gear too it wouldn't be an issue.

This.

I generally support what you're saying here, but the bolded, nope, italicized, is extremely speculative unless you have something to bolster it.

Andykp wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Strange gothic fashion is eminently appropriate to 40k. If you don’t care for this stuff, 40k may not be your thing. That said, Guardswomen would not be dressed in strange personality-expressing fashion but rather personality-erasing AdMunitorum BDUs.

We don’t have any female guards women and that’s my point. You can keep the flavour of 40k and still have women in it. As it stands there are too few and they are all of the same trope. That is a failing and the numbers of female players is a consequence.

We don't have any named characters, but it's rather hard to tell if the Cadian model is male or female due to the age of the sculpt and lack of finer facial detail for most of them. You can argue that there are not enough characters, but you can't argue that every Guard model "must" be a guy.

Well you could, but that'd be silly.

It's really not. Cadians are very classically masculine faces.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Strange gothic fashion is eminently appropriate to 40k. If you don’t care for this stuff, 40k may not be your thing. That said, Guardswomen would not be dressed in strange personality-expressing fashion but rather personality-erasing AdMunitorum BDUs.

We don’t have any female guards women and that’s my point. You can keep the flavour of 40k and still have women in it. As it stands there are too few and they are all of the same trope. That is a failing and the numbers of female players is a consequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
There is inherently nothing wrong with corsets and high heels etc (can we have some men in these as well?) but it is kinda problem if that's the majority of the representation. If there were some tough guardswomen in more practical(ish) gear too it wouldn't be an issue.

This.

I generally support what you're saying here, but the bolded, nope, italicized, is extremely speculative unless you have something to bolster it.

You are right. I’m am making assumptions there. Thought I would get called out on it as I typed it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's really not. Cadians are very classically masculine faces.

GW wasn't really doing a great job with sculpting female heads in general in the 90s. I mean look at the faces on the Sisters.

Every Escher girl cant afford a corset so settles for a sports bra instead. Underwear seems to be a theme here

If you are saying that the lack of Guardswomen models is a problem that GW should fix ASAP then we are completely in agreement.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's really not. Cadians are very classically masculine faces.

you could say that about almost all GW models.

Female bodies are virtually indistinguishable from male bodies in uniform and body armor, with the only defining trait being a different hip/waist ratio that is mostly covered up by thick coats, webbing, and armor. All they need is heads, although all guardsmen really need new models.

I don't know about the military, never been in one. But I am a scout, and the difference between the male and female scout is that in the first 4km the male scout carries a larger bag of stuff and past 4km he also has to carry the female scouts bag. Male IG should look like mules, all HWT dudes should be Dudes and most snipers should be female.

So were are clutching at straws now to the extent that if you don’t look too closely some of the human models could be female in the right light.

The current state of females in the 49k setting and range is indefensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If you are saying that the lack of Guardswomen models is a problem that GW should fix ASAP then we are completely in agreement.

Yes it is. Then move on to other human lines.

Andykp wrote:
Every Escher girl cant afford a corset so settles for a sports bra instead. Underwear seems to be a theme here

But consider: if they wore shirts you couldn't see their sick abs.

Andykp wrote:
So were are clutching at straws now to the extent that if you don’t look too closely some of the human models could be female in the right light.

The current state of females in the 49k setting and range is indefensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If you are saying that the lack of Guardswomen models is a problem that GW should fix ASAP then we are completely in agreement.

Yes it is. Then move on to other human lines.

It IS defensible in the respect that GW used to REALLY suck at doing female faces and models but has gotten better. That said, it's a matter of actually taking the time and money to update existing armies to meet the level of ability the company now has.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Every Escher girl cant afford a corset so settles for a sports bra instead. Underwear seems to be a theme here

But consider: if they wore shirts you couldn't see their sick abs.

This is true. It’s also why catachans cut their sleeves off. All about the gun show.

Cadian models do not look at all like women and really cannot be mistaken for women, if we’re being serious. They were designed pretty clearly to be tough looking men. They even look masculine stood next to Space Marines.