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Since the release of 8th edition I have become an enthusiastic Death Guard player. I had pretty good success playing them as a mono faction (no soup) in the beginning of 8th edition when their codex was released. However, as time has gone on I am now really struggling to win games with them. Their codex, models, characters, strategems, and psychic abilites seem lack luster compared to all the other codexes. I’m curious what people think is the solution to make them more competitive? I have a few things that I think would help below:

-All units in the codex gain the Inexorable Advance similar to all the new codexes
-Chaos Lords and Sorcerers become T5 and gain Disgustingly Resilient (no extra cost)
-The Nurgle Daemons in the codex gain the Death Guard faction keyword
-Grandfather’s Blessings reduced in cost to 1 CP and able to use on any Death Guard unit (the heal D3 wounds strategem)
-Nurgle’s Rot reduced to 2 CP (the once per battle D3 mortal wounds, there are already unlimited Nurgle Daemon psychic power that do this for free)
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers Tri-lobe change to, “Add to all 1 hit rolls contains 3 models at the beginning of the game.” (Right now it is silly that all haulers must be in the same unit and lose the ability as soon as one dies since it is a 450point unit)
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers Putrescent Fog gives a cover save to all Nurgle Death Guard units instead of infantry that are entirely within 7” (this one may be to good of an upgrade without a significant points bump)
-A points reduction in Deathshroud Terminators, Blightlord Terminators, and Plague Marines
-All Auras for all death guard models changed to 7” range (right now it is random to 3”,6”,7” and should be 7” consistently for all)
-Allow Plague Marine’s Plague Champion to take a blight launcher similar to plasma and other weapon options.
-Reduce the cost of Plague belcher and Plague Spewers
-Bolters replaced for Plague Bolters instead that have the Plague Weapon rule
-Helbrutes gain disgustingly resilient
-All Daemon unit’s gain disgustingly resilient
-Possesed gain +1 Toughness and disgustingly resilient


New Strategem ideas allowing the DG to become really resilient at key points of the game:
-A new Strategem for 1 CP, a unit can reroll all Disgustingly Resilient rolls of 1 for a phase or pay 2 CP and reroll all DR rolls.
-A Strategem for 2 CP, choose one unit with 18” of a Death Guard model reduce that unit’s Toughness by 1 for the phase.
-A Strategem for 1 CP, choose a Death Guard unit and add +1 to their toughness until the end of the phase.
-A Strategem for 1 CP, choose an enemy unit and subtract -1 from all their hit rolls until the end of the phase.
-A Strategem for 1 CP, Add 1 to a units saving throws until the end of the phase.
-A Strategem for 1 CP, Add 1 to a units Disgustingly Resilient rolls until he end of the phase.

Most DG lists only have 8-9 CP and very little CP regeneration so they are likely not going to have the chance to use these often and will have to choose key moments to make their units incredibly resilient for short periods of time.

Even with these changes the Army still will likely struggle against all the newer codexes that have so much synergy and excellent strategems. The Death Guard seem overcosted, lack the punch they need, and lack synergy and good strategems. What changes do you think need to occur to make mono Death Guard lists competitive again?

A Death Guard list won BAO recently. However, it had a renegade knight and 2 helverins. Running mono DG without any knights is a losing proposition. In this meta, anything that can take knights should be taking knights.

Death Guard actually do pretty well in mono-codex vs mono-codex situations. If you are running them as a mono-codex army and playing against some of the more competitive soup armies, you will struggle, which may be your problem.

Some of your changes are reasonable, some of that is, quite frankly, insane, and the combination of all of it would boost Death Guard to crazy levels, likely well above even Dark Eldar/Eldar.

Let's look at some of your ideas:

-All units in the codex gaining Inexorable Advance is a decent suggestion. Like other Marines and their Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits, this is probably something we will see to some extent.
-DG Chaos Lords and Sorcerers should definitely be T5 and gain DR. They may require a slight points hike with these changes however.
-All Nurgle daemons in the codex should gain the Death Guard faction keyword. It's silly that they don't have it. This may require some tweaking of other rules to avoid undesirable interactions.
-Either change listed here to Grandfather's Blessing would be incredibly powerful; the combination of both changes would be completely insane. Death Guard vehicles are some of the toughest in the game; they absolutely do not need access to repairs on top of everything else, especially at 1 CP. Other factions such as Imperial Guard pay 1 CP to regenerate only 1 wound on a vehicle, and the vehicle cannot move on top of that. There is no reason for this stratagem to become that powerful.
-The change to Nurgle's Rot is probably fine. As it is, it is extremely situational to the point of basically never being used. Reducing the CP cost a little would not hurt. However, it may be good to make it an INFANTRY CHARACTER, to avoid Mortarion shenanigans.
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers are fine as is. Having to run them in a unit of 3 to buff them is a trade-off for the survivability and damage they bring to the table for their points cost. Having a flat 3+ BS would be very, very powerful on this unit.
-Again, the Blight-Haulers are fine as is. Changing their cover to affect everything around them would be a huge buff to PBC's and other DG vehicles, which simply to not need any additional survivability. It would basically make this an auto-take unit, and combined with the first change you suggested (adding Inexorable Advance to ALL DG units), this would again be extremely powerful.
-Blightlord Terminators are probably okay; they could maybe use a very slight points reduction. Plague Marines (along with almost all other marine variants in the game) could probably use a 1-2 point reduction. Deathshroud Terminators should go down a little bit.
-Increasing all auras 7" is another flat buff that's probably not really needed. I'm not totally opposed to it, but it just doesn't feel necessary.
-Plague Champions having access to Blight Launchers would likely be okay. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see less plasma in the game at any rate.
-Plague Belchers and Plague Spewers are the DG equivalent to flamers and heavy flamers which are also overcosted. A small points reduction would be reasonable.
-While rerolling 1's to wound on bolters wouldn't be too over the top, there are abilities in the DG codex that allows for units to reroll all wounds with plague weapons. This would be significantly better than the Space Marine lieutenant, without having to spend any points to make it happen. So this change by itself wouldn't be too bad, but because of other interactions in the codex it could cause problems.

broxus wrote:
What changes do you think need to occur to make mono Death Guard lists competitive again?

I suppose the first thing to do would be to see how they are fairing in competitive events. A quick search on best coast pairings ... 40k events ... last month ...
Crucible doubles - DG winner
Arkham games ITC even - DG winner
Trader Legion Inaugural - DG top 3
Orktober waaaughfest - DG top 8

That's from the first 8 unfiltered tounrament results the database returned. For all I know they might be soups, but soup is free so if you make mono-DG competitive against the soup you'll also make soup-DG unstoppable.

Doesn't mean all of your suggestions are bad, but DG are one of the stronger books at the moment.

A.T. wrote:

broxus wrote:
What changes do you think need to occur to make mono Death Guard lists competitive again?

I suppose the first thing to do would be to see how they are fairing in competitive events. A quick search on best coast pairings ... 40k events ... last month ...
Crucible doubles - DG winner
Arkham games ITC even - DG winner
Trader Legion Inaugural - DG top 3
Orktober waaaughfest - DG top 8

That's from the first 8 unfiltered tounrament results the database returned. For all I know they might be soups, but soup is free so if you make mono-DG competitive against the soup you'll also make soup-DG unstoppable.

Doesn't mean all of your suggestions are bad, but DG are one of the stronger books at the moment.

Are those pure DG lists or soup? So often soup lists are classified as DG lists when really they are not, i.e. the BAO list. This wouldn’t buff those lists, but instead really help the mono DG lists more.

broxus wrote:
Are those pure DG lists or soup? So often soup lists are classified as DG lists when really they are not, i.e. the BAO list. This wouldn’t buff those lists, but instead really help the mono DG lists more.

The site gives no indications one way or another, though any buff to mono DG would make soup DG correspondingly more powerful.

A.T. wrote:

broxus wrote:
Are those pure DG lists or soup? So often soup lists are classified as DG lists when really they are not, i.e. the BAO list. This wouldn’t buff those lists, but instead really help the mono DG lists more.

The site gives no indications one way or another, though any buff to mono DG would make soup DG correspondingly more powerful.

My point is that those soup lists are not so good because of DG lists, but instead because of how good the soup list items are, i.e. a Renegade Knights.

broxus wrote:
My point is that those soup lists are not so good because of DG lists, but instead because of how good the soup list items are, i.e. a Renegade Knights.

All chaos and imperial factions can soup with knights - but it's still only a subset of those that seem to be consistently top placing, and death guard is one of them.

If knights were the be-all and end-all you'd have a bunch of chaos & knights, ultramarines & knights, sisters & knights, etc in the top spots.
And without the lists those four could have all be pure DG anyway.

DG are solid, if you're struggling it's probably more about your generalship and less about the army itself.

If you're complaining about soup it's clear that there's a problem with your generalship - soup is how tournament armies are constructed, and DG in a tournament environment are doing just fine.

Adding a knight to 1500 points of DG is not really soup. I'm not sure what your aversion to them is, but you might want to get over it if you want to be competitive with DG.

I’m not going to debate my generalship and game play. I have done very well in tournaments and events. I never said DG were unplayable and broken. However, most agree there is becoming a significant power creep between old and new codexes. If you are playing older codexes at events you are going to be fine. Newer codexes force you tofight an uphill battle. People shouldn’t be forced to play soup to do well in events regardless of your codex or faction. The BAO lists for example had 850 points of knights and actually every list in the top 5 had a knight included. That shows a clear trend.

I presented some options and if you have feedback on them I would love to hear hit. All of the old codexes (GK, DG, SMs, CSMs, Daemons) all could use a power bump.

broxus wrote:
People shouldn’t be forced to play soup to do well in events regardless of your codex or faction.

Improving units within one faction or another won't really make a difference, because people will still play souped armies. They will just change their lists up to adjust with balance changes. If GW wants to reduce soup, what they need to do is change some core game rules to make allied detachments less effective. There's many ways to do that, from restricting command points to restricting what detachments you can bring to even more esoteric changes, but none of them involve improving one particular army or weakening another.

Case in point, GW raised the points costs on models like Celestine and Magnus which people had been taking in soup lists. Did they stop playing soup lists? Not at all. The core game rules still incentivize doing so, they're just playing with Knights Castellan and TS Daemon Princes now because that's what's stronger at the moment.

broxus wrote:
People shouldn’t be forced to play soup to do well in events regardless of your codex or faction.

Keep in mind that knights are like harlequins, assassins, and inquisitors - they are intended as allies.

If this were an earlier edition of the game the knight would simply have been reprinted in multiple books like the harlies or released with DH/WH/assassin style ally rules.

Only thing I'd like to see for DG is a way to get Deathshroud Terminators into CC reliably... even if that would bump up their cost significantly.

broxus wrote:
All of the old codexes (GK, DG, SMs, CSMs, Daemons) all could use a power bump.

GK and SM yes.

DG, CSM and Daemons are fine, some of the top performing factions in fact.

It sounds like your issue is more with soup than with DG. Either run soup yourself or understand that you are hamstringing yourself not taking soup (at present).

The suggestions should be to make soup less powerful. Not to buff the constituent parts of soup lists in an attempt to make 'mono' stronger. All it will do is increase the potency of soup lists that use the buffed parts. If you want mono to be stronger, soup needs to be weakened in some way.

I also disagree that we've seen codex creep. Craftworld was released earlier and remains one of the most powerful books. The same can be said for CSM. Harlequins and Necrons were released later and are not as powerful standalone.

I think a hefty revision of how soup lists interact internally, along with a sensible nerf to the most powerful units in the soup lists is the way forward.

DG needs more strategems and all the copy/paste units need something more DG like.

Also, plague marines need to be buffed in some way because no-one ever plays 17pts marines, even if they have T5 and DR. Making the boltgun better offensively or even giving them the ability to carry a missile launcher would go a long way.

Fixing soup is easy, just give mono factions a bonus or more restrictions in the way CPs are available for soup. That discussion was settled a while ago already imo.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Death Guard actually do pretty well in mono-codex vs mono-codex situations. If you are running them as a mono-codex army and playing against some of the more competitive soup armies, you will struggle, which may be your problem.

Some of your changes are reasonable, some of that is, quite frankly, insane, and the combination of all of it would boost Death Guard to crazy levels, likely well above even Dark Eldar/Eldar.

Let's look at some of your ideas:

-All units in the codex gaining Inexorable Advance is a decent suggestion. Like other Marines and their Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits, this is probably something we will see to some extent.
-DG Chaos Lords and Sorcerers should definitely be T5 and gain DR. They may require a slight points hike with these changes however.
-All Nurgle daemons in the codex should gain the Death Guard faction keyword. It's silly that they don't have it. This may require some tweaking of other rules to avoid undesirable interactions.
-Either change listed here to Grandfather's Blessing would be incredibly powerful; the combination of both changes would be completely insane. Death Guard vehicles are some of the toughest in the game; they absolutely do not need access to repairs on top of everything else, especially at 1 CP. Other factions such as Imperial Guard pay 1 CP to regenerate only 1 wound on a vehicle, and the vehicle cannot move on top of that. There is no reason for this stratagem to become that powerful.
-The change to Nurgle's Rot is probably fine. As it is, it is extremely situational to the point of basically never being used. Reducing the CP cost a little would not hurt. However, it may be good to make it an INFANTRY CHARACTER, to avoid Mortarion shenanigans.
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers are fine as is. Having to run them in a unit of 3 to buff them is a trade-off for the survivability and damage they bring to the table for their points cost. Having a flat 3+ BS would be very, very powerful on this unit.
-Again, the Blight-Haulers are fine as is. Changing their cover to affect everything around them would be a huge buff to PBC's and other DG vehicles, which simply to not need any additional survivability. It would basically make this an auto-take unit, and combined with the first change you suggested (adding Inexorable Advance to ALL DG units), this would again be extremely powerful.
-Blightlord Terminators are probably okay; they could maybe use a very slight points reduction. Plague Marines (along with almost all other marine variants in the game) could probably use a 1-2 point reduction. Deathshroud Terminators should go down a little bit.
-Increasing all auras 7" is another flat buff that's probably not really needed. I'm not totally opposed to it, but it just doesn't feel necessary.
-Plague Champions having access to Blight Launchers would likely be okay. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see less plasma in the game at any rate.
-Plague Belchers and Plague Spewers are the DG equivalent to flamers and heavy flamers which are also overcosted. A small points reduction would be reasonable.
-While rerolling 1's to wound on bolters wouldn't be too over the top, there are abilities in the DG codex that allows for units to reroll all wounds with plague weapons. This would be significantly better than the Space Marine lieutenant, without having to spend any points to make it happen. So this change by itself wouldn't be too bad, but because of other interactions in the codex it could cause problems.

I agree 100% with this. DG are a very powerful army compared to most other armies. In my gaming group the worst "soups" consist of something like craftworld eldar with harlequins or admech with knights, and my mono-DG are undefeated so far (a couple of draws though). All those buffs added would basically be like 7th edition eldar codex all over again.
There are a few units which simply do not compare well to other units in our codex and those need fixing. Possessed, deathshrouds, plague surgeon, land raiders and lords of corruption come to mind as units that simply don't work. Those should be on the same level as our other stuff.

Outside of that, most things I'd like to see are quality of life improvements:
- make all our marines proper plague marines with +1T and DR. Most my opponents are baffled when I tell them that my chaos lord is T4 with no DR, and it would also help possessed a lot.
- make all our auras 3"/7" so you don't need to check for each aura whether it's 1,3,6 or 7 inches
- Inexorable Advance for everyone. That alone should serve to make defilers, predators and heavy blight launcher drones more useful
- Plague weapon options for helbrutes, daemon princes, predators, defilers, possessed and other units that are not unique to the DG codex. All CSM stuff feels like second grade units because of this.

Death Guard are already a competent book. Some of the infantry need point cost reductions. The Plagueburst crawler needs a 50 point hike.

Bremon wrote:
Death Guard are already a competent book. Some of the infantry need point cost reductions. The Plagueburst crawler needs a 50 point hike.

If it got a points hike no one would take it because you must take them in numbers due to their terrible BS and lack of ways to buff them offensively via strategems or psychic powers. If they move you are hitting on 5s or 6s.

I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

The DG is very strong.
Yes, Lords, sorcerers and possessed should have T5 and DR, but it would mean increasing points costs (ca. 15points for the characters, at least 3points for possessed).

If anything, the Drone and the PBC should be increased by about 30points each to not be an auto include anymore. They are far too durable for their costs.

All Flamers in the game should go down, yes. A normal flamer should cost about 5points, so a belcher could be 6-7points.

Stratagems:
Nurgle's rot is too expensive with 3CP, but all similar abilites in other codizes are as well. Orbital bombardment, the Tau thing and so on, they are all useless, you'd hardly use them for 1 CP, let alone 3.

"A Strategem for 1 CP, Add 1 to a units Disgustingly Resilient rolls until he end of the phase."
Just no. Things like these broke 7th edition. DR is already an extremely powerful ability that makes DG one of the most beginner friendly armies, as mistakes in the game don't hurt you that much. 4+++ just like 2++ shouldn't exist and it's good that GW has learnt that lesson.

-"A Strategem for 1 CP, Add 1 to a units saving throws until the end of the phase."
If you need a stratagem like that there's not enough terrain on your board. Or you forgot your Blight Hauler.

-"A Strategem for 1 CP, choose an enemy unit and subtract -1 from all their hit rolls until the end of the phase."
You have Miasma of Pestilence which is already cheaper than in later codizes. -1 to hit modifiers are the reason some armies are broken, we don't need more of that, especially not in an army with DR.

You can take Daemons in a different detachment and they're more useful that way anyway. Just do it. A Nurgle-Daemon battallion costs you about 220 points. It will fit in any list.

What really needs to happen?
Land Raider -80 points.
Helbrute - 20 Points. (or DR for them...)
Rhino: -10-points.
maybe an upgrade to give them DR and -1BS (possessed machine) for 15-20points

blight launcher: +2points

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

Haha yea. Increasing the cost of PBCs, drones, and blight launchers as some said results in no one ever winning with them. The Death Guard definitely need more strategems the ones they have are weak or overcosted. I’m ok if Plague Marines don’t get 2 attacks, but instead Plague Bolters or something equivalent to improve their shooting. What honestly bothers me the most about the codex is the lack of plague weapon options and odd oversight to give a DG flavor to all units (i.e. lords, sorcerers, possessed, Helbrutes). I also hate they put pages of Daemons in the codex that you can’t put in your list since they lack the Death Guard faction keyword. What was the point???

As far as my original post I don’t expect to see all those tweaks implemented, but some should be considered to help improve the DG playability, competivness, and fun.

Yes I forgot to add Helbrutes should get DR in my original post, good catch.

broxus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Death Guard are already a competent book. Some of the infantry need point cost reductions. The Plagueburst crawler needs a 50 point hike.

If it got a points hike no one would take it because you must take them in numbers due to their terrible BS and lack of ways to buff them offensively via strategems or psychic powers. If they move you are hitting on 5s or 6s.

PBCs aren't taken for their mortars...

And herein lies the problem. PBCs need a tweak, no doubt; but they also need to be brought back into what their intended role is of heavy support and not a ground-based version of a Bloat Drone it currently is.

broxus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

Haha yea. Increasing the cost of PBCs, drones, and blight launchers as some said results in no one ever winning with them. The Death Guard definitely need more strategems the ones they have are weak or overcosted. I’m ok if Plague Marines don’t get 2 attacks, but instead Plague Bolters or something equivalent to improve their shooting. What honestly bothers me the most about the codex is the lack of plague weapon options and odd oversight to give a DG flavor to all units (i.e. lords, sorcerers, possessed, Helbrutes). I also hate they put pages of Daemons in the codex that you can’t put in your list since they lack the Death Guard faction keyword. What was the point???

As far as my original post I don’t expect to see all those tweaks implemented, but some should be considered to help improve the DG playability, competivness, and fun.

Yes I forgot to add Helbrutes should get DR in my original post, good catch.

Honestly the fact their Bolters of any kind don't have Plague Weapon as a rule is ridiculous. I'd want that and the two attacks. NOW you got a Plague Marine worth its cost.

Competitive DG consists of 2 units, a special rule, a single stratagem, and soup.
The prince with tallons, plate, and arch contaminator. 3xPBC. Putrid detonation (detonate a DG vehicle when it does). The special rule is inexorable advance, because it helps our few good FW units.

The rest that makes DG good is soup.

Well I haven't played many games with my DG yet, but I would like to see more reasons to take Plague Marines, they are really cool models, but they don't really feel as good as the old plague marines. Old marines had +1 attack, and the option to take two of all special weapons. I really miss having the melta guns, I mean I KNOW triple plasma is way better, but I miss the option.

Any single ingredient from a soup faction will not be able to stand up to a mix of the strongest ingredients from a soup faction.

As a mono dex, DG is fine. Every dex needs a bit of work and they are no exception, but in a dex v dex setting they are a very good army.

broxus wrote:
I’m not going to debate my generalship and game play. I have done very well in tournaments and events. I never said DG were unplayable and broken. However, most agree there is becoming a significant power creep between old and new codexes.

They're not talking about Death Guard, trying to act like this is an agreed thing is kinda disengenuous.

broxus wrote:
People shouldn’t be forced to play soup to do well in events regardless of your codex or faction. The BAO lists for example had 850 points of knights and actually every list in the top 5 had a knight included. That shows a clear trend.

Then ask for changes to the rules that are soup. Making DG stronger just makes Chaos soup stronger and means that you still won't be able to compete at all vs the top lists in the meta and doesn't achieve what you want at all, it just makes even less armies viable.

broxus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Death Guard are already a competent book. Some of the infantry need point cost reductions. The Plagueburst crawler needs a 50 point hike.

If it got a points hike no one would take it because you must take them in numbers due to their terrible BS and lack of ways to buff them offensively via strategems or psychic powers. If they move you are hitting on 5s or 6s.

Who cares if they hit anything? Sit them on objectives, they’re basically indestructible, and absolutely ridiculous for the points they cost. Meanwhile marines pay considerably more for tanks made of paper that don’t make it past the opponent’s second turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

Then make predators cheaper. There’s a reason PBC and DP are the most commonly spammed DG units, and it isn’t because they’re inefficient or overpriced.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Well I haven't played many games with my DG yet, but I would like to see more reasons to take Plague Marines, they are really cool models, but they don't really feel as good as the old plague marines. Old marines had +1 attack, and the option to take two of all special weapons. I really miss having the melta guns, I mean I KNOW triple plasma is way better, but I miss the option.

You can still take 2 specials in min units...

Agreed though, I wish they still had 2 attacks. Would make assault unit variants much more deadly with the additional +1 attack (3 attacks each with Bubotic Axes would be insane)

I think with their current iteration, a drop to 15 ppm would help them see more common table time





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:
A Death Guard list won BAO recently. However, it had a renegade knight and 2 helverins. Running mono DG without any knights is a losing proposition. In this meta, anything that can take knights should be taking knights.

That is not a DG list. Nurgle Daemon Soup with Knights is not a DG list.

The issue with competitive meta is soup in general though and a whole other discussion.

Bremon wrote:

broxus wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Death Guard are already a competent book. Some of the infantry need point cost reductions. The Plagueburst crawler needs a 50 point hike.

If it got a points hike no one would take it because you must take them in numbers due to their terrible BS and lack of ways to buff them offensively via strategems or psychic powers. If they move you are hitting on 5s or 6s.

Who cares if they hit anything? Sit them on objectives, they’re basically indestructible, and absolutely ridiculous for the points they cost. Meanwhile marines pay considerably more for tanks made of paper that don’t make it past the opponent’s second turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

Then make predators cheaper. There’s a reason PBC and DP are the most commonly spammed DG units, and it isn’t because they’re inefficient or overpriced.

Predators have issues for sure. Predators not gaining any Chapter Tactic equivalent and them being expensive really hurt them.