Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though!

That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

 Redbeard wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Those upset about losing options (that you can still use) and not being able to customise stuff should have lived through the 2nd to 3rd transition. Whole ORK armies were invalidated over night. Never mind 2000 points of stuff you can’t use (but can), my whole army made no sense any more after 3rd came in.

So, in your opinion, because something sucky isn't quite as sucky as your prior experience, we should all be grateful? You're just the sort of customer GW likes - you've been fed a s--t sandwich so often, you've forgotten what's in it, and are just happy that it's warm and fresh.

Well no because that time stuff was invalidated in its droves. I had to change my whole army. Now, all these things people are upset about not being able to play, you actually can. Perfectly legally in any play style the index rules are perfectly valid. I have have had to make no changes at all to my army. So if I’m the type of customer that GW likes then good, because I’m the type that actually realises that nothing has changed and all your models are still usable. And looted vehicle rules are on their way and sound great. The “conversions” people are upset about not being able to do anymore were just head swaps or arm swaps. Not conversions. The wheels and things on the new buggies are interchangeable and I’m planning some fun conversions changing out crews and chassis on them to make some unique buggies. It’ll just require a bit more thought. That’s not a bad thing.

Looted vehicles are only in Open Play though.
Most people prefer to play matched play. Looted vehicles might as well not exist for them.

All GW had to do was say "not allowed for tournaments, but otherwise go nuts" and that would be great.
Orks would get proper battletanks in matched play, everyone gets to convert and kit out models to their heart's desire and GW gets to sell more kits. Everyone wins.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Only illegal for those strictly following ETC and nobody has the balls to challenge them on their stance for Index or FW.

Otherwise these ARE core rules. ETC is a homebrew for losing core rules.

Not only ETC.

And again who knows how long. Risky to start converting models now.

Open play where the one rule is "There are no rules! Also here are a bunch of rules.".

Andykp wrote:
Well no because that time stuff was invalidated in its droves. I had to change my whole army. Now, all these things people are upset about not being able to play, you actually can. Perfectly legally in any play style the index rules are perfectly valid. I have have had to make no changes at all to my army. So if I’m the type of customer that GW likes then good, because I’m the type that actually realises that nothing has changed and all your models are still usable. And looted vehicle rules are on their way and sound great. The “conversions” people are upset about not being able to do anymore were just head swaps or arm swaps. Not conversions. The wheels and things on the new buggies are interchangeable and I’m planning some fun conversions changing out crews and chassis on them to make some unique buggies. It’ll just require a bit more thought. That’s not a bad thing.

Bolded part false.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looted vehicles are only in Open Play though.
Most people prefer to play matched play. Looted vehicles might as well not exist for them.

All GW had to do was say "not allowed for tournaments, but otherwise go nuts" and that would be great.
Orks would get proper battletanks in matched play, everyone gets to convert and kit out models to their heart's desire and GW gets to sell more kits. Everyone wins.

I am 99% certain they said they were Narrative and Open - if they even just have Power Levels attached to them, the people I play with will be totally cool with "Power Level X 20 = points" for them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looted vehicles are only in Open Play though.
Most people prefer to play matched play. Looted vehicles might as well not exist for them.

All GW had to do was say "not allowed for tournaments, but otherwise go nuts" and that would be great.
Orks would get proper battletanks in matched play, everyone gets to convert and kit out models to their heart's desire and GW gets to sell more kits. Everyone wins.

I am 99% certain they said they were Narrative and Open - if they even just have Power Levels attached to them, the people I play with will be totally cool with "Power Level X 20 = points" for them.

Ah, that's right, they are in narrative. Still no matched play though, where they should be.
I miss looted wagons. They were a fun unit.

Haha, I remember that time I was in a gw store and said "Does anyone want to play narrative or open play" and i got a look of disgust from everyone in the store. XD Unless you have a dedicated group with your own table, Narrative and Open play doesn't really exist.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Only illegal for those strictly following ETC and nobody has the balls to challenge them on their stance for Index or FW.

Otherwise these ARE core rules. ETC is a homebrew for losing core rules.

Not only ETC.

There's nobody else banning core materials. Unless you're talking about super specific shops, which really doesn't count.

 lolman1c wrote:
Haha, I remember that time I was in a gw store and said "Does anyone want to play narrative or open play" and i got a look of disgust from everyone in the store. XD Unless you have a dedicated group with your own table, Narrative and Open play doesn't really exist.

Yeah that definitely happened. I'm sure a whole room of people just gave you a look of DISGUST for even MENTIONING narrative play!

People like points, that's for sure, but I play custom scenarios and army setups all the time, which would fall under "narrative play", at least as GW seems to define it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Haha, I remember that time I was in a gw store and said "Does anyone want to play narrative or open play" and i got a look of disgust from everyone in the store. XD Unless you have a dedicated group with your own table, Narrative and Open play doesn't really exist.

Yeah that definitely happened. I'm sure a whole room of people just gave you a look of DISGUST for even MENTIONING narrative play!

People like points, that's for sure, but I play custom scenarios and army setups all the time, which would fall under "narrative play", at least as GW seems to define it.

I haven't seen that level of disapproval, but I have had a lot of newer ( started in 8th) players get weird about index/FW options. It's kinda odd but almost full circle. I remember when I started that named characters and FW had a stigma and we seemed headed back towards that. I actually miss units that didn't have model, made players get creative and actually have to hobby, not just ebay the flavor of the month.

FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

My scrapjet got better at least

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Well no because that time stuff was invalidated in its droves. I had to change my whole army. Now, all these things people are upset about not being able to play, you actually can. Perfectly legally in any play style the index rules are perfectly valid. I have have had to make no changes at all to my army. So if I’m the type of customer that GW likes then good, because I’m the type that actually realises that nothing has changed and all your models are still usable. And looted vehicle rules are on their way and sound great. The “conversions” people are upset about not being able to do anymore were just head swaps or arm swaps. Not conversions. The wheels and things on the new buggies are interchangeable and I’m planning some fun conversions changing out crews and chassis on them to make some unique buggies. It’ll just require a bit more thought. That’s not a bad thing.

Bolded part false.

But this says you can use it in any play style. There are only three if tournaments don’t allow it then that’s nothing to do with GW. So not false at all.

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though!

That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

Do you think it is worth ten points? (Not being facetious)

nareik wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though!

That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

Do you think it is worth ten points? (Not being facetious)

Tankbusta bombs are free. So yes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
a) for how long
b) already illegal for many

Only illegal for those strictly following ETC and nobody has the balls to challenge them on their stance for Index or FW.

Otherwise these ARE core rules. ETC is a homebrew for losing core rules.

To be fair, the ITC pack is also a homebrew set, though with different changes to the ETC set.

nareik wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though!

That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

Do you think it is worth ten points? (Not being facetious)

I don't think the 1 point increase on Boyz is entirely down to the ability to take tankbusta bombs, but thinking about how many considered the bog standard boy to be great value when they were 6ppm, maybe GW thought it was undercosted slightly? With tankbusta bombs as a "freebie" and access to strategems and kultures maybe GW thought 7ppm was justified? I don't know, but I do know that tankbusta bombs on a small mob of deathskulls Boyz is very useful indeed.
It adds another fairly viable option to the much maligned trukk boy mob.

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though!

That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

Do you think it is worth ten points? (Not being facetious)

I don't think the 1 point increase on Boyz is entirely down to the ability to take tankbusta bombs, but thinking about how many considered the bog standard boy to be great value when they were 6ppm, maybe GW thought it was undercosted slightly? With tankbusta bombs as a "freebie" and access to strategems and kultures maybe GW thought 7ppm was justified? I don't know, but I do know that tankbusta bombs on a small mob of deathskulls Boyz is very useful indeed.
It adds another fairly viable option to the much maligned trukk boy mob.

Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

 lolman1c wrote:
FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

Also lost the ability to use strats on embarked units. Can no longer use stikkbombs or more dakka on trukkbustas. This faq hamstrings our ability to to kill tough targets quite badly.

We are only a few weeks into the codex and are already getting gutted

redboi wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

Also lost the ability to use strats on embarked units. Can no longer use stikkbombs or more dakka on trukkbustas. This faq hamstrings our ability to to kill tough targets quite badly.

We are only a few weeks into the codex and are already getting gutted

Huh?

I just don’t get it. You’re handed a perfect way to counter every issue Tankbustas had WHILE adding unprecedented access to variability smoothing (CPs ever used on re-rolls anyone?) and complain we’re getting gutted.

 lolman1c wrote:
Haha, I remember that time I was in a gw store and said "Does anyone want to play narrative or open play" and i got a look of disgust from everyone in the store. XD Unless you have a dedicated group with your own table, Narrative and Open play doesn't really exist.

I have never had this happen but I have also seen numerous people ask for narrative/open play games on our local game site (Over 200 members) and literally nobody answers or if they do they ask if they can play ITC rules. I have also never personally seen a narrative or open play game at my local shops. It is always ITC rules.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tank busta bombz on boyz though! That's a gain?

On deathskulls truck Boyz it certainly is.

Do you think it is worth ten points? (Not being facetious)

I don't think the 1 point increase on Boyz is entirely down to the ability to take tankbusta bombs, but thinking about how many considered the bog standard boy to be great value when they were 6ppm, maybe GW thought it was undercosted slightly? With tankbusta bombs as a "freebie" and access to strategems and kultures maybe GW thought 7ppm was justified? I don't know, but I do know that tankbusta bombs on a small mob of deathskulls Boyz is very useful indeed.
It adds another fairly viable option to the much maligned trukk boy mob.

Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

Dakka Dakka Dakka for 7ppm is actually the same as no dakka dakka dakka on a 6ppm except against targets with -2 to hit. Dakkax3 on a 7ppm for 84pts is 12 boyz armed with shootas. That is 24 shots, 4 exploding 6s on average for a grand total of 28 shots which = 9.3 hits. 6ppm you can take 14 boyz instead of 12 so you get 28 shots anyway. So all Dakkax3 did was equal out the ranged damage potential for boyz, it doesn't help with close combat, movement, leadership or durability. SO overall Dakkax3 is a wash for ranged and nothing else. The Tankbusta bombz are borderline useless, it equates to 3 boyz in a full mob having a grand total of 6 shots with a S8 weapon which means 2 hits on average and against a T8 vehicle (the thing we have a hard time with before the codex) that is 1 wound with a 50-75% chance to go through the armor save (2+ or 3+) and do D6 damage. The bonus is minuscule to say the least. Basically all these "Buffs" are so minor and insignificant that it shows me that GW was just trying to find a way to increase the cost of boyz without making it appear as a straight out nerf, even though it completely is. If boyz are as good as before why are people spamming grots instead who don't benefit from much in the new codex and are seen mostly as a tax unit or at best a grot shield. Overall, I would rather NOT have Dakkax3 on my Boyz models and give back the Tankbustas bombs if it meant I could take 6ppm Boys again, and you know why? Because I wasn't using them for taking on Knights or shooting things because they suck at both of those roles, I was using them as CHEAP disposable melee infantry. At the moment they cost as much as Tau Firewarriors who have a S5 30inch ranged rapid fire weapon with 4+ armor, 4+BS and TONS of rules and buffs that make them nasty at shooting, GW didn't increase their cost and give them some crappy Melee buff for a reason, it doesn't make sense.

Bitharne wrote:

Huh?
I just don’t get it. You’re handed a perfect way to counter every issue Tankbustas had WHILE adding unprecedented access to variability smoothing (CPs ever used on re-rolls anyone?) and complain we’re getting gutted.

Except that all those wicked cool Stratagems don't work unless those Tankbustas are standing out in the fething open getting killed by everything because its a T4 model with a 6+ save that can only move 5' a turn and cost 17ppm. In other words THEY ARE BULLET MAGNETS which is why you never see them being played as foot slogging (You know, where they gain those benefits from strats) and instead see them ALWAYS crammed into trukkz, battlewagonz and koptas. And in the Index, Tankbustas weren't seen as a counter to every issue, nor were they even seen as a counter to Knights, because again, too fragile, too expensive.

So by limiting our units that REQUIRE a transport to function in the game you are basically saying they gained basically NOTHING from this codex except maybe a faction bonus or at most Dakkax3. Neither of which compares to the bonuses from Showing off or even Dakkax3 hitting on 5s....or god forbid, you combine the two and you can shoot twice and 5s and 6s cause more shots while 1s (badmoon) Give you another reroll as well. But we can't have that because those tankbustas HAVE to stay in the vehicle or die.

If you take all of that in, you realize that Tankbustas have become the new Sternguard Melta Suicide squad from 7th edition. They drive up, jump out, shoot, kill their target (maybe) and then die in a hail of fire because T4 and 6+ saves don't mean anything to any army.

I almost feel bad that you have to be more tactical than rushing forward and firing from a transport. Almost.

SemperMortis wrote:
If boyz are as good as before why are people spamming grots instead who don't benefit from much in the new codex and are seen mostly as a tax unit or at best a grot shield.

Because 3 ppm Shield Drones with Objective Secured are broken.

 alextroy wrote:
I almost feel bad that you have to be more tactical than rushing forward and firing from a transport. Almost.

Hey. not every army can afford the tactical genius of sitting in the corner and throwing dice until you win.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I almost feel bad that you have to be more tactical than rushing forward and firing from a transport. Almost.

Hey. not every army can afford the tactical genius of sitting in the corner and throwing dice until you win.

To be fair, it's kinda silly it wouldn't work, like with Archons not projecting anything on a transport when everyone else is on one, Marine vehicles not having Chapter Tactics...

It's a lot of silliness.

Kinda laughable that I've waited 18 months for this codex and within two fething weeks of release every Imperial soup/aeldari player on dakka dakka is crying their eyes out calling for nerfs. What's wrong, new hotness can't be souped into your broth ?

Bring more screens, use your cp denying strats, use your still superior guns and to hell with your stupid claims that this Ork codex has changed the meta. Of course it'll shake up the meta, every bloody codex release changed the meta to a varying degree upon release.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I almost feel bad that you have to be more tactical than rushing forward and firing from a transport. Almost.

Hey. not every army can afford the tactical genius of sitting in the corner and throwing dice until you win.

To be fair, it's kinda silly it wouldn't work, like with Archons not projecting anything on a transport when everyone else is on one, Marine vehicles not having Chapter Tactics...

It's a lot of silliness.

It is a lot of silliness, I'm not disagreeing there.

Bitharne wrote:

redboi wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

Also lost the ability to use strats on embarked units. Can no longer use stikkbombs or more dakka on trukkbustas. This faq hamstrings our ability to to kill tough targets quite badly.

We are only a few weeks into the codex and are already getting gutted

Huh?

I just don’t get it. You’re handed a perfect way to counter every issue Tankbustas had WHILE adding unprecedented access to variability smoothing (CPs ever used on re-rolls anyone?) and complain we’re getting gutted.

Care to explain? What exactly have we been "handed"? Tankbustas are now exactly the same they were in the index, save army traits. Except now we can't even use command rerolls on them
A tankbusta unit not in a trukk is nothing but a big 200pt+ bullseye that evaporates the first time something sneezes in it's general direction, and lacks the mobility to get into a meaningful position to do any damage even if you are crazy enough to have them hoof it.

This FAQ is a giant screw up. That single change is a massive nerf to the codex as a whole, and wasn't needed in the slightest.. Technically, RAW the Boarding Action stratagem has no effect when used on trukks and battlewagons. Again, we are less than a month into the codex and the nerfs are already rolling in. Just wait a couple more months for them to really pile on. This codex is going to be shambles by the time spring comes around.