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I think the Castellan (and all other IK) should be capped at a 5+ invuln instead.

Make rotate ion shields 1CP for everybody and change it to reflect back a mortal wound for each unmodified invuln save of a 6 they make.

Make ion bulwark a 5+ invuln in CC as well (that already exists as a relic but I don't see the problem of having it be a warlord trait as well)

Only make the house stratagems available for the Knight Lance formation. Meaning you at least need 2 armigers as well as a big 'un for that "Order of companions" strat.

Raise the castellan 100ish points, raise the gallant 50. Lower the cost of the rapid fire battle cannon by 25.

If all of this happens I feel like we'll start seeing heavy vehicles without invulns in the game again. I don't think the point increase for the castellan should be crazy if we fix the biggest issue IMO, the 3++.

The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.

Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.

This game really needs less shooting or better defenses. I didn't spend months painting my stuff just to have them put back in the case in the first turn.

Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.

Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.

Yes, because knights are so good right now that you have to bring enough firepower to drop them. You will face IK in a tournament, 9/10 times. Not preparing for it is ridiculous. Make IK worse and they'll be less prevalent, meaning people can stop skewing super hard towards AT.

As for IK being able to leave combat and still function, I don't see the issue. Land raiders dropped a lot in points (probably not enough) but are you really complaining about leman russes? They're cheap and are in an army with an endless supply of chaff to protect them. With the price drop to tank commanders those guys are offensively good and if the Castellan went up in points dropping the overall need for all that AT those guys can really start putting the hurt on a lot of lists.

This isn't really pertaining to the bolter rule though, so I'll stop. I mean you can argue that better bolters makes the flexibility a bit tempting with tacticals and having them as backfield holders with a lascannon in each squad.

PiñaColada wrote:
I think the Castellan (and all other IK) should be capped at a 5+ invuln instead.

Make rotate ion shields 1CP for everybody and change it to reflect back a mortal wound for each unmodified invuln save of a 6 they make.

Make ion bulwark a 5+ invuln in CC as well (that already exists as a relic but I don't see the problem of having it be a warlord trait as well)

Only make the house stratagems available for the Knight Lance formation. Meaning you at least need 2 armigers as well as a big 'un for that "Order of companions" strat.

Raise the castellan 100ish points, raise the gallant 50. Lower the cost of the rapid fire battle cannon by 25.

If all of this happens I feel like we'll start seeing heavy vehicles without invulns in the game again. I don't think the point increase for the castellan should be crazy if we fix the biggest issue IMO, the 3++.

I wouldn't even change the cost of the castellan, the model is fine.
650 points for 4 plasma cannons a couple of missiles and some predator autocannon are not overpowered. You can get much more than that with those points.
The problem is in the invul save and in the Cawl's wrath, if it weren't for that trait and that relic, the castellan would be perfectly fine.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.

Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.

Most armies=two overpowered soups actually. Maybe 3 with AM.

Not even stand alone drukhari can 1-shot a knight unless they're heavy tailoring against the imperium list, which makes them extremely bad against several other common armies.

Spoletta wrote:

I wouldn't even change the cost of the castellan, the model is fine.
650 points for 4 plasma cannons a couple of missiles and some predator autocannon are not overpowered. You can get much more than that with those points.
The problem is in the invul save and in the Cawl's wrath, if it weren't for that trait and that relic, the castellan would be perfectly fine.

It's not 650 points though. It's 593 or 604 depending on loadout.

It also has nothing to do with the new bolter rule discussion. Just saying.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.

We also know from third edition that codex marine chapters spend around 13 hours a day drilling shooting in various scenarios and only spend 4 hours of the 24 hour cycle sleeping. Everything else is drilling with a small section of time dedicated to prayers. Unlike Astartes SOB couldn't function with just 4 hours a sleep a day.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where's this idea that Sisters and Marines have the same level of training coming from? One of the advantages of being a genetically modified murder-gorilla is that you can train in ways that would kill even the hardiest of unmodified human. The averare Scout probably has way more experience in combat than your average Sister of Battle. The advantages of having your Bolter effectively be part of your nervous system as opposed to just a tool due to the Black Carapace has already been mentioned.

You mean these scouts that explicitly are not deployed to most battles chapter faces, unlike sisters, and when they are, it's mostly stealthy skulking about, not full on combat, again unlike sisters? These ones? Who by the way cease to be the scouts after about 10 year tops, so you actually have it backwards, typical line sister will be way more experienced than a scout, who by the way gets the benefit of the new bolter rule without having black carapace so this point is null and void too.

As for training, it's called 'diminishing returns'. It takes roughly 5-10 years to master any skill, well within possibility range of even 30 year old sister. After that, it becomes increasingly hard to make even tiny, incremental advances especially seeing the sisters do fight with the bolter 100% of the time, and the SM is kicked to assault squad once he learns shooting well enough to learn completely different skill set while becoming rusty with big guns again. In fact you could argue it would take a veteran tactical marine to equal a good sister in bolter shooting as the extra years will be largely 'wasted' acquiring proficiency in weapons sisters will never use...

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aaaand it's back to talking about SoB again.

Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.

All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.

"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.

Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"

And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.

There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.

The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.

Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.

I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.

You've got:

SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.

Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.

Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.

Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.

Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?

What's this all about then eh? Genetically modified massive superhumans who have their guns neurologically wired into their nervous system and spend more hours in a day training with them than everything else in their day combined, vs a militant religious order of humans who like their guns a lot and are pretty good with them?

There's no fluff argument for giving SoB the same rule that I can see...

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.

Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.

If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.

I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The problem with that is there's enough heavy fire power to drop a knight with a 3+ quickly in most armies.

Other heavy vehicles won't, and don't stand a chance. And there are other reasons they aren't taken, but knights are. A knight can leave combat and shoot. A Leman Russ, or Land Raider can't.

Most armies=two overpowered soups actually. Maybe 3 with AM.

Not even stand alone drukhari can 1-shot a knight unless they're heavy tailoring against the imperium list, which makes them extremely bad against several other common armies.

Yeah it's always been pretty funny to me that people pretend that any one eldar faction has an answer to knights. the ONLY thing that downs them in one turn is a specific soup combo that combines a psychic power from one codex with an ability (haywire) from one of two different codexes.

Meanwhile, if I want to handle a 3++ save knight with my thousand sons, I take the psychic power that lets me do that, cast it with a +1 or +2 to cast guy, and then just shoot the dang knight with any lascannons I have.

 Mr Morden wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aaaand it's back to talking about SoB again.

Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.

All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.

"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.

Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"

And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?

If we are including Astra Militarum, would should only count Scions. So, Storm Bolters on Taurox Primes, anybody?

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.

Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.

If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.

I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.

If you go into a setting that is designed to be fantastical wish-fulfillment, full of things that are completely beyond the pale of reality, and you use some minute biological distinction between males and females to justify the need to limit women in the setting despite ignoring the numerous other hilariously glaring instances of non-realism as features of the narrative setting (such as, why are 95% of the humans depicted in the setting european?) that is a great example of casual sexism.

This is a setting where your regular humans not wearing face masks are allowed to fight the super duper plague faction and all your soldiers don't keel over and vomit their guts out on turn 2 causing you to auto-lose. Because if that realism was applied, it wouldn't work as a game. Your super-soldiers are allowed to drop onto the battlefield at terminal velocity and not get turned to mush in their armor because that's AWESOME, who the feth cares?

Women are allowed to be elite soldiers with higher ballistic skill without someone going "but muh testosterone!"

It's a fantasy setting. Get over it.

Diminishing returns or not, someone who practices 13 hours a day and only needs to sleep 4 hours every day is going to get so much more training in than someone who's only human. Plus, you're still assuming that the training is the same kind of training. Why would a transhuman monster who's faster, stronger, and able to process information much faster than a human be training in the same manner as someone who's human?

Sure, Scouts may not be part of every engagement their Chapter faces, but fighting or going to places where there is fighting is all Space Marines do. Marines usually don't do garrison duty except as part of garrisons they know are going to come under attack. Plus, I'm pretty sure they're Scouts for longer than 10 years.

 Mr Morden wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aaaand it's back to talking about SoB again.

Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.

All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.

"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.

Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"

And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?

You are talking about who trains the longest hours and sleeps the less, if bolter training has diminishing returns or not and if superhuman strength or faith should give one better shooting. So go sigh somewhere else, ty. If at any point you are confused, read the title of the thread.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, at least three pages were added since I last posted.

Several other people added the source request, and made many of the same fluff arguments as to why Space Marines wouldn't be the only ones to qualify for this, or a similar rule.

If we're going to keep talking about this though, could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.

I haven’t seen any casual sexism here. The worst I’ve noticed is people trying to apply biological differences between men and women to this argument, and that isn’t sexist. It is just useless as we don’t have a game system built for that kind of granularity.
I think the whole Black Carapace argument is much more viable in this scenario. Feeling you weapon in your mind sounds better than someone that just uses a weapon.

If you go into a setting that is designed to be fantastical wish-fulfillment, full of things that are completely beyond the pale of reality, and you use some minute biological distinction between males and females to justify the need to limit women in the setting despite ignoring the numerous other hilariously glaring instances of non-realism as features of the narrative setting (such as, why are 95% of the humans depicted in the setting european?) that is a great example of casual sexism.

This is a setting where your regular humans not wearing face masks are allowed to fight the super duper plague faction and all your soldiers don't keel over and vomit their guts out on turn 2 causing you to auto-lose. Because if that realism was applied, it wouldn't work as a game. Your super-soldiers are allowed to drop onto the battlefield at terminal velocity and not get turned to mush in their armor because that's AWESOME, who the feth cares?

Women are allowed to be elite soldiers with higher ballistic skill without someone going "but muh testosterone!"

It's a fantasy setting. Get over it.

Sure, beyond the pale of reality, however normal humans still have physical limitations. That is grounded in reality for this setting. That’s why super soldiers like Astartes are made (the better reasoning for this rule, IMO).
These minute biological differences are not sexist. They just aren’t a good argument for a game where that kind of granularity can’t be achieved.
It isn’t the first game to take realism into account to make a game more fun, however. I would have been vary annoyed if the parachute I was using in Battlefield 1 didn’t work every time, where it should have jammed sometimes.
In a scenario where one is fighting the plague marines and like, I’d imagine they would be equipped with proper gear. WYSIWYG isn’t an actual rule.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Aaaand it's back to talking about SoB again.

Back on topic, the problem with the bolter is not the amount of shots you get, it's the fact that the shots aren't strong enough. You could make the bolters assault 3 weapons for free, and then you would find out that you just managed to make your 15 pt unit resemble the 8 pt dakkagant. Hurray. At least they used to punch through guard armor in previous edition, now they don't even do that.

All bolters should be ap-1 from the get go, and inferno bolters should be ap-3.

"Sigh" Listen Mate - its a thread about Bolters and we were talking about the varous users and if the rule should apply to them - if you had bothered to read.

Be far more productive for you to moan about the constant intrusion into every thread of "Marines suck"

And on your point - are you talking about ALL Bolters or just (as usual) Marine ones - does that include Heavy Bolters including Guard ones?

You are talking about who trains the longest hours and sleeps the less, if bolter training has diminishing returns or not and if superhuman strength or faith should give one better shooting. So go sigh somewhere else, ty. If at any point you are confused, read the title of the thread.

I Read the title - did you? Read it again....

New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs

- its a statement inviting discusion of the rule, how and why its implemented or are you deciding who and how someone responds to it =- if so cite your authority.

Double "Sigh" mate - I was one of several who said i didn't think that Sisters (or either kind) should get the rule - extra points on your reading skill or lack of it. Talking about whether or not the new rule was approrpiate or not or should be exanded is not exactly off topic. IS IT

So talks about the Castellan (who doesn't even carry the damned weapons) or talks about not giving a rule to plastic inanimate models who depict fictional non existing people constitues sexism or not seems on topic to you, right?

Knights aren't going anywhere. They finally balanced the meta with them.

Lol and "they don't belong" so much wishful thinking.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.

There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.

The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.

Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.

I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.

You've got:

SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.

Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.

Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.

Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.

Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?

Thinking that DW vets won't get Bolter Drill is pretty short sighted. It's obviously a rule for all of these types and will probably get adjusted quickly. You don't lose thousands of years of experience as soon as you are transferred to a unit in power armour. In fact, not allowing it currently is being a little bit TFG as you are employing a technicality in the keywords to disallow it when the rule doesn't seem to want exceptions (all terminators get it, except this fellow here).

I think he means that since they teleport within 12" they were already in RF range and as such don't really benefit from this new rule. It does give them better flexibility for later turns though.

Even on the drop, it adds durability. You drop 9" away from their front line, and shoot 23" away at their squishy core.

It wont' be an option every game, but it's fairly common that I either have or face an army where the squishy bits are more than 12" away from where I can DS.

 bullyboy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.

There is still no reason not to to take DW everything.

The possitive is -
HB cents are now considerable.
Rhinos with 2 SB now put out reasonable firepower
Redemptors got beter
Repuslors got better
Crusders got better
Even sterngaurd got better
Intercessors got better
Bikes got a lot better
Terminators got better
Stormraven can now stay outside of charge range and still rain death.

Is this going to make a meaningful difference? NO. The real issue with marines is point cost and weak defensive stats and trash stratagems and traits not confering to vehicals.

I still have not gotten a straight answer on how this somehow makes deathwatch better, because as far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing for the units people actually take from DW.

You've got:

SB/SS vet squad with terminator buddies and vanvet buddies: Absolutely nothing. These guys deep strike into rapid fire range, they would only claim any benefit from the rule if they A, survived the turn, then B, managed to be outside of 12" from any available target the following turn.

Mixed squad that combat squads into 2 SS vanvets and 3 DW bikes: Do not have the bike keyword, so therefore gain no benefit from the rule.

Terminators joined to vet squads: Do not have the terminator keyword, therefore gain no benefit.

Mixed Fortis teams with Intercessors bodyblocking for Hellblasters: Might benefit, BUT the hellblasters' guns do not, meaning if you ever make use of the rule you're dividing your plasma fire (the reason for the squad's existence) in half. This squad still needs to be moving up to 15" range to rapid fire.

Are people going to suddenly start taking deathwatch terminator and bike squads to use this rule? Or are they going to decide the drawbacks of those squads over the alternatives (not having 3++ saves) is not worth it?

Thinking that DW vets won't get Bolter Drill is pretty short sighted. It's obviously a rule for all of these types and will probably get adjusted quickly. You don't lose thousands of years of experience as soon as you are transferred to a unit in power armour. In fact, not allowing it currently is being a little bit TFG as you are employing a technicality in the keywords to disallow it when the rule doesn't seem to want exceptions (all terminators get it, except this fellow here).

I mean, if you consider me TFG for not taking advantage of a rule I don't get because I don't have the keyword that it applies to, then I guess I'm a TFG. I'm not taking Bolter Drill on my Meganobz either, because they don't have the TERMINATOR keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Even on the drop, it adds durability. You drop 9" away from their front line, and shoot 23" away at their squishy core.

It wont' be an option every game, but it's fairly common that I either have or face an army where the squishy bits are more than 12" away from where I can DS.

Yeah, except that deep striking counts as moving. so you can't use it on the drop, unless you are a Terminator etc.

Kdash wrote:


Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.

One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.

But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.

@techsoldaten - where is the rest of your army?

@KDash - sadly the stratagem affects only 1 weapons so it would be 2 CP to do that.

"Yeah, except that deep striking counts as moving. so you can't use it on the drop, unless you are a Terminator etc."

Because I fail at context.

Yes, in a non-Termie squad, it doesn't help you that turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I keep looking for the downsides of this rule.

I'm starting to think just about the only army it screws over is Swordwind Eldar. With the variety of units in that style army, and their general susceptability to Boltguns mixed with their short range, this lets the Marine player pick their targets much more freely. Which means Swordwind will lose. Who else gets hit hard by this?

(Note: CWE can certainly take this hit and still be top dog.)