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With 30k currently on the brain, I started wondering about which Legions were "strongest", and realised that I really don't think I can answer that.
So, these are my criteria for "Which Space Marine Legion was the strongest?":
1: This is assumed to be pre-Nikea, and pre-Argel Tal's Pilgrimage. Therefore, there will no Possessed, no Kakophoni, no Gal Vorbak, no Daemons, etc etc.
2: Primarchs will not be included on a personal combat level, but any strategic or tactical input they may have is included. Think of it as the Primarch leading their army, but having no physical effect.
3. We are not counting allies of the Legion (Titan Legions, Knight Houses, fleets not directly commanded by the Legion, Solar Auxila etc etc). However, assets that the Legion directly control will be counted (so the Spireguard, Armaturan Academy Guard, Kaerls, or Battle Automata), as will fleets directly controlled by the Astartes - so the Imperial Fists would not include the Solar System's defences, but would include the Phalanx and their own fleet, whereas the Ultramarines would have access to Armatura, but not the Segmentum Fleet.
4: There could be many different ways of fighting - I ask to look at a holistic approach, across the widest variety of possible engagements. So while the Alpha Legion would be the strongest Legion in sabotage, that's only one type of battle.
5: The size difference between Legions is a factor. The Thousand Sons and Emperors Children, for example, will be very small Legions, whereas the Death Guard and Ultramarines will be larger.
With all this in mind, what do you think?
Spoilered are my insights:
Spoiler:
I don't think I could rate the Night Lords or Alpha Legion that high. Night Lords are great terror troops, but Space Marines are resistant to fear. Not only that, but the Night Lords lack courage themselves in a pitched battle.
Alpha Legion also flounder in pitched battle. They simply don't seem to have the doctrine to allow them to fight well in massed warfare.
My top picks, as Legions, would be Dark Angels (good technology, lots of veteran legionnaires, Lion's tactical insight), Imperial Fists (the Phalanx, good defensive and aggressive tactics), Sons of Horus (Horus' good tactics, general skill of the Legion), and Ultramarines (sheer weight of numbers, Guilliman's tactical/logistic support, a large support network).
Not sure how I feel about the Thousand Sons - either great, or low. Being all psykers is good, but flesh change is a factor. They're also one of the smallest of Legions, but can their psychic powers make the difference?
Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus would probably rank pretty high. They were, bar none, the best legion when it came to decapitation strikes, assaults, and Deep Strike tactics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 19:05:45
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Why would we not count a Primarch's combat skills? A primarch's strategic genius doesn't count for much when Fulgrim removes their strategic head from their shoulders.
Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children were the two biggest Legions with fantastic records from the Great Crusade (post-Monarchia, for the latter) but two of the weakest Primarchs. They shouldn't rate in the same category as the Sons of Horus or Dark Angels, who could count on their leader surviving the inevitable primarch vs primarch clash that would result from a Legion vs Legion fight.
The Imperial Fists shouldn't rate very high for the same reason- Dorn was middle of the pack in combat skills if not near the bottom, and his strategic brilliance is less than compelling. Perturabo got the better of him, hard, and Perturabo almost lost a space battle to a plain old Imperial Fist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 19:51:09
EmpNortonII wrote: Why would we not count a Primarch's combat skills? A primarch's strategic genius doesn't count for much when Fulgrim removes their strategic head from their shoulders.
Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children were the two biggest Legions with fantastic records from the Great Crusade (post-Monarchia, for the latter) but two of the weakest Primarchs. They shouldn't rate in the same category as the Sons of Horus or Dark Angels, who could count on their leader surviving the inevitable primarch vs primarch clash that would result from a Legion vs Legion fight.
The Imperial Fists shouldn't rate very high for the same reason- Dorn was middle of the pack in combat skills if not near the bottom, and his strategic brilliance is less than compelling. Perturabo got the better of him, hard, and Perturabo almost lost a space battle to a plain old Imperial Fist.
Aren't you confusing the Emperor's Children and the Word Bearers ?
EmpNortonII wrote: Why would we not count a Primarch's combat skills? A primarch's strategic genius doesn't count for much when Fulgrim removes their strategic head from their shoulders.
Because I'm judging the Legion (and their immediate resources), not their Primarch. However, the way the Primarchs instructed their Legions to fight affected the Legion itself. I don't particularly care for the idea that the battle all boils down to which Primarch is best in a fight, because that's not what I want to know or discuss here.
I'm all open to a Primarch v Primarch discussion, but not in this thread, if you please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 20:19:37
Well, in the one criteria that "matters" pre-heresy, most worlds conquered, the credit is held by the Luna Wolves and Horus.
That's not entirely fair - since they were the first legion to be reunited with their primarch and hence got a geometric kick up in strategic capability and priority for the best toys - but it's a useful meterstick.
Second was supposedly the Ultramarines - although the track record of the primarchs was supposed to be Horus>Johnson>Russ - which doesn't necessarily mean the other primarch's legions weren't succeeding more in total away from their respective primarch's fleets - Dorn and Gulliman were good at delegating, which may explain their high 'legion' victory numbers compared to 'personal' victory numbers.
locarno24 wrote: Well, in the one criteria that "matters" pre-heresy, most worlds conquered, the credit is held by the Luna Wolves and Horus.
That's not entirely fair - since they were the first legion to be reunited with their primarch and hence got a geometric kick up in strategic capability and priority for the best toys - but it's a useful meterstick.
Second was supposedly the Ultramarines - although the track record of the primarchs was supposed to be Horus>Johnson>Russ - which doesn't necessarily mean the other primarch's legions weren't succeeding more in total away from their respective primarch's fleets - Dorn and Gulliman were good at delegating, which may explain their high 'legion' victory numbers compared to 'personal' victory numbers.
While this is a good point, I didn't want to default to this. I must have forgot to clarify - I meant which Legion would be the victor against most of the other Legions, as well as their capability in fighting the varied xenos threats. So both their PvP, and PvE potential, I suppose.
Also, this is the first I've heard of Russ being on the leaderboard for amount of worlds taken. I thought it to be Horus, then Guilliman, then Jonson, then presumably someone like Perturabo/Dorn, Fulgrim, or Sanguinius next. Russ' claim to fame was being second discovered, having a decently successful Legion and trying to impose himself as the Emperor's Executioner, and that was pretty much it.
The Dark Angels. Only the Luna Wolves conquered more but the Lion was supposedly the best strategist in the entire bunch.
Only their losses in the Rangdan Genocides made them take losses that catapulted the Luna Wolves forward.
The black rage is within us all. Lies offer no shield against the inevitable. You speak of donning the black of duty for the red of brotherhood; but it is the black of rage you shall wear when the darkness comes for you.
Those are the top 4 to me, Iron Hands just because of sheer bloody minded dedication, luna wolves because of the warmaster, ultramrines due to sheer scale, and dark angels due to the lion and the wings that allow them to adapt to any situation.
I'd rank the Iron Warriors pretty high. Maybe not in the top 3, but deadly enough given their numbers, determination and firepower. They were ultimately the legion the others turned to when nobody else wanted to take a particularly well-defended world. Also IIRC the Alpha Legion was able to give the Ultramarines a good dressing-down even without their Primarch.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 03:41:17
"The sword can be anklebiter as well as throatcleaver. We need no new weapons to defeat the sons of the hydra, merely new doctrines."
-Joriah Stendall, second Chapter Master of the Red Grail Crusaders
Okay so no primarch's fighty abilities, I'm not familiar with legion's direct controlled assets nor assets that don't count for this assessment. I would still rate 1ksons fairly high(top 5), everyone of them is a fairly potent psyker, if the sisters of silence weren't present, they would of fend off the space wolves and custodes. Each one is worth 1k regular marines or more, if they fight together and not individually, they can rack up quite a kill count.
Since we can't include the fightiness of primarchs, we should really take the fighty prowess of the captains(Kharn(world eaters), Sigsmund(imperial fists), Sevatar(night lords), Raldoron(blood angels), Abaddon(luna wolves).
The numerical of marines is also a big factor(advantages to Ultramarines, Iron Warriors, Luna Wolves), Emperor's Children start from almost extinction at 200, depending on what time frame exactly we're referring to, their number still may not be sufficient.
A pitched battle can count the Alpha Legion at the very bottom of the list. Raven Guard and White Scars would be bottom 1/3 to 1/4 as their style of warfare is not pitched battle. Having marines fighting each other to the death would also see the Salamanders near the bottom next to the Alpha Legion if they aren't last themselves.
My list:
Top
Luna Wolves(able commander on(Abaddon) and off(Horus) the field, tactics, #'s)
Thousand Sons(magic un ltd.)
Space Wolves(their savagery and fairly numerical #)
Dark Angels(able off field commander(Lion), tactics/training, fairly good #'s)
Imperial Fists(Able field duelist(Sigsmund), discipline bar none, fairly good #'s and tactics)
Blood Angels(able field commander(Raldoron), black rage)
Night lords(they have able field commander(Sevatar), precog genes, terror tactics)
Ultramarines(they have #'s, tactics/training, able off field commander(Guilliman))
World Eaters(they have #'s, able field commander(Kharn), savagery bar none)
Death guard(they are relentless and have huge #'s)
Emperor's Children(lack of #'s and like to show off really hurt their prowess)
Iron Warriors(they have #'s and are relentless, not afraid of the dirty work)
White Scars
Iron Hands(they have #'s, and the machine is > fanaticism)
Word Bearers(they have #'s and are fanatics, that's about it)
Raven Guard(look at dropzone massacre in a pitched battle)
Salamanders(too kind, fight a brother would be unimaginable)
Alpha Legion
Bottom
The space wolves would do particularly well. If I recall correctly they spent most of the Great crusade fighting some of the most terrifying and deadly xeno species.
The SoH / Luna wolves had the best record in the GC
I bet the Death Guard would do good. This kind of warfare suits them. Same with the Imperial Fists.
I'd place the Raven Guard high on the list aswell, they did a pretty go job at a fighting retreat on Ivsstian.
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Danielle Rae wrote:Also IIRC the Alpha Legion was able to give the Ultramarines a good dressing-down even without their Primarch.
While true, I feel this is an exceptional case, rather than the norm. From what we're aware, the Ultramarines didn't try to attack the Alpha Legion, and assumed that killing "Alpharius" would be enough, and essentially came off combat readiness after they did. The Alpha Legion were successful purely because the Ultramarines didn't expect an attack, which certainly fits the Alpha Legion's strengths, but with such a narrow range of what the Legion are good at, I struggle to see them as much good overall.
Big Mac wrote:Each one is worth 1k regular marines or more, if they fight together and not individually, they can rack up quite a kill count.
1000 each? I really don't think the Thousand Sons are that good. I wouldn't even say the Grey Knights are that good, and they're better than the Sons. Not to mention that they were one of the smallest Legions (only 1,000 of them when Magnus first saved them from the Flesh Change, and never more numerous than 10,000 Astartes (compared to the Ultramarines 250,000 pre-Calth).
My list: Top Luna Wolves(able commander on(Abaddon) and off(Horus) the field, tactics, #'s) Luna Wolves should definitely be high up, but I don't think Abaddon was a better commander than someone like Pollux. An able commander, but then, most Legions had able commanders of Abaddon's calibre. While also a large Legion (between 130,000-170,000 men, they didn't really come close to the Ultramarines in terms of numbers. Thousand Sons(magic un ltd.) Good psychic, but a REALLY small Legion. I don't think their psychic potential is good enough to get them beyond 5th best with their small size. Space Wolves(their savagery and fairly numerical #) Savage and certainly relished attacking other Astartes, but they weren't massively numerous (130,000 at peak, 100,000 normally, about mid sized) and took more losses against the World Eaters than the World Eaters took during the Night of the Wolf. Dark Angels(able off field commander(Lion), tactics/training, fairly good #'s) Good numbers, probably second largest. Tactically better than nearly all Legions, and with good tech, but logistically inferior to the Ultramarines. Imperial Fists(Able field duelist(Sigsmund), discipline bar none, fairly good #'s and tactics) Around the same size as the Wolves, roughly 100,000 men, so medium sized. I don't really want to include duellist feats, as most Legions had someone within that power level, and in terms of command, I'd rather focus on leadership and combat tactic, rather than combat strength - my fault for not making that clear. Blood Angels(able field commander(Raldoron), black rage) Blood Angels are a strange one - I feel like they should be really high up, but I don't know why. Night lords(they have able field commander(Sevatar), precog genes, terror tactics) Sevatar seems like a good duellist, but as a commander, I don't think he was particularly special. Plus, their terror tactics, while good at taking on xenos or humans, probably aren't that capable of threatening Astartes. I would personally put the Night Lords quite low down, and certainly lower than the next three. Ultramarines(they have #'s, tactics/training, able off field commander(Guilliman)) Purely from sheer numbers and tactical/logistic skill, the Ultramarines had massive advantages over most Legions, plus their rate of conquest leaves me confused why they're so low down, especially lower than the Night Lords. I might not put the Ultras in 1st, but certainly in the top 5, for me. World Eaters(they have #'s, able field commander(Kharn), savagery bar none) At least 150,000 World Eaters, so certainly a larger Legion. I'd actually be inclined to put them higher than the Space Wolves, or at least, would beat the Wolves in fight. Death guard(they are relentless and have huge #'s) Death Guard numbers are a bit of a strange case, actually. Two sources claim very different sizes, both seem unreasonably small or large. The smaller one, claimed in the first HH Black Book, is 98,000, which seems far too small. Alternatively, we have Flight of the Eisenstein, which claims 7 Great Companies of around 70,000 men each, which puts them at 490,000, larger than the Ultramarines (who are canonically supposed to be the largest Legion). Emperor's Children(lack of #'s and like to show off really hurt their prowess) However, they were very skilled, probably more so than nearly any other Legion. I'd wager an Emperor's Children Astartes to be better than nearly any other Legionary. Of course, numbers hurt them, like the Thousand Sons. Iron Warriors(they have #'s and are relentless, not afraid of the dirty work) Also quite tactically gifted too. I'd like to think they should be higher. White Scars Unfortunately, little known, or at least, not in as much detail. However, I'd like to think that they'd be quite solid, all things considered. Iron Hands(they have #'s, and the machine is > fanaticism) Not sure about their numbers. However, completely tenacious. Word Bearers(they have #'s and are fanatics, that's about it) Yeah, high numbers and fanaticism, but if that's all, then the World Eaters would do this far better. Raven Guard(look at dropzone massacre in a pitched battle) Another example of "good where they're specialised, but lacklustre everywhere else". Salamanders(too kind, fight a brother would be unimaginable) I'd like to assume here that brotherly sentiment is gone, for the purposes of this, but I just can't see the Salamanders being in the top half. Alpha Legion Either Alphas or Night Lords should be bottom. Too specialised, and too focused on attacking weak targets, rather than dealing with strong ones. Bottom
Nice list, I've just left a few personal notes about my thoughts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 18:26:31
Iron Warriors would rank very high for their high numbers and because besides normal antares tactics they are able stand long wars and siege. Plus they are usually augmented with robots and other high technology. They were the premier garrison and seige.
"We have all and none. Death better come to the other bastard first." - SSG Alton, 19th Valerian Light Infantry Regiment
"With iron and fire the beast shall be lain low at the hands of the Hunters whose home is under the Bloodmoon." - Bloodmoon Hunters Chapter
"Bring on the Angels of Blood and Darkness as thy descend from the heavens to smite our enemies. Let the Wolves of war rend and tear our foes to pieces. And we of the Bloodmoon Hunters shall bring the iron and fire as our vehicles crush all that oppose us under our treads." - Tech-Captain of the Bloodmoon Hunters
My 40k Armies:
Bloodmoon Hunters (Iron Hands Successors)
Lunar Venatorii Regiments (Astra Miltarium)
Mjior Prime Expediton (Skitarii/Admech)
Ordo Machinum (Inquisition)
1000 each? I really don't think the Thousand Sons are that good. I wouldn't even say the Grey Knights are that good, and they're better than the Sons. Not to mention that they were one of the smallest Legions (only 1,000 of them when Magnus first saved them from the Flesh Change, and never more numerous than 10,000 Astartes (compared to the Ultramarines 250,000 pre-Calth).
That's is old lore. By the HH : Inferno FW Book, they are estimated to have counted 80-85k legionnaries right before Prospero.
Big Mac wrote:Each one is worth 1k regular marines or more, if they fight together and not individually, they can rack up quite a kill count.
1000 each? I really don't think the Thousand Sons are that good. I wouldn't even say the Grey Knights are that good, and they're better than the Sons. Not to mention that they were one of the smallest Legions (only 1,000 of them when Magnus first saved them from the Flesh Change, and never more numerous than 10,000 Astartes (compared to the Ultramarines 250,000 pre-Calth).
Magnus had made a pact unknowingly with Tzeentch to temporarily reduce/eliminate perils completely for his sons, so they can cast magic without limit and fighting together only compound their effectiveness.
My list:
Top
Luna Wolves(able commander on(Abaddon) and off(Horus) the field, tactics, #'s) Luna Wolves should definitely be high up, but I don't think Abaddon was a better commander than someone like Pollux. An able commander, but then, most Legions had able commanders of Abaddon's calibre. While also a large Legion (between 130,000-170,000 men, they didn't really come close to the Ultramarines in terms of numbers.
Alexis Pollux was a nobody, and can't hold Abaddon's jock strap; Abaddon was already a solidified top fighter, general, to reduce his stature is loyalist bias. Thousand Sons(magic un ltd.) Good psychic, but a REALLY small Legion. I don't think their psychic potential is good enough to get them beyond 5th best with their small size.
Space Wolves(their savagery and fairly numerical #) Savage and certainly relished attacking other Astartes, but they weren't massively numerous (130,000 at peak, 100,000 normally, about mid sized) and took more losses against the World Eaters than the World Eaters took during the Night of the Wolf.
Russ had Angron and his WE surrounded and could have given the order to execute every last one of the WE, WE are more ferocious, SW are ferocity controlled. Dark Angels(able off field commander(Lion), tactics/training, fairly good #'s) Good numbers, probably second largest. Tactically better than nearly all Legions, and with good tech, but logistically inferior to the Ultramarines.
Imperial Fists(Able field duelist(Sigsmund), discipline bar none, fairly good #'s and tactics) Around the same size as the Wolves, roughly 100,000 men, so medium sized. I don't really want to include duellist feats, as most Legions had someone within that power level, and in terms of command, I'd rather focus on leadership and combat tactic, rather than combat strength - my fault for not making that clear.
Why don't you just make your pre requisites so that you're favorite legion is #1? Blood Angels(able field commander(Raldoron), black rage) Blood Angels are a strange one - I feel like they should be really high up, but I don't know why.
Night lords(they have able field commander(Sevatar), precog genes, terror tactics) Sevatar seems like a good duellist, but as a commander, I don't think he was particularly special. Plus, their terror tactics, while good at taking on xenos or humans, probably aren't that capable of threatening Astartes. I would personally put the Night Lords quite low down, and certainly lower than the next three.
Sevatar was quite a commander, very underrated, knowing that the NL are very much like pirates, only he can subjugate them together outside of Curze; you're over looking the power of precog, knowing what happens next greatly helps who could change it, sadly Curze is the only one who couldn't change his fate no matter how hard he tries; terror tactics works on marines, just ask that RG they tortured to basically turn him into a newly recruited NL, marines knows no fear, but this is terror, there are many instances where this was shown in the HH books. Ultramarines(they have #'s, tactics/training, able off field commander(Guilliman)) Purely from sheer numbers and tactical/logistic skill, the Ultramarines had massive advantages over most Legions, plus their rate of conquest leaves me confused why they're so low down, especially lower than the Night Lords. I might not put the Ultras in 1st, but certainly in the top 5, for me.
I put them here because they have no known able fighty commander. Vanilla only get you so far. World Eaters(they have #'s, able field commander(Kharn), savagery bar none) At least 150,000 World Eaters, so certainly a larger Legion. I'd actually be inclined to put them higher than the Space Wolves, or at least, would beat the Wolves in fight.
Death guard(they are relentless and have huge #'s) Death Guard numbers are a bit of a strange case, actually. Two sources claim very different sizes, both seem unreasonably small or large. The smaller one, claimed in the first HH Black Book, is 98,000, which seems far too small. Alternatively, we have Flight of the Eisenstein, which claims 7 Great Companies of around 70,000 men each, which puts them at 490,000, larger than the Ultramarines (who are canonically supposed to be the largest Legion).
I was using the latter #'s. Emperor's Children(lack of #'s and like to show off really hurt their prowess) However, they were very skilled, probably more so than nearly any other Legion. I'd wager an Emperor's Children Astartes to be better than nearly any other Legionary. Of course, numbers hurt them, like the Thousand Sons.
Iron Warriors(they have #'s and are relentless, not afraid of the dirty work) Also quite tactically gifted too. I'd like to think they should be higher.
White Scars Unfortunately, little known, or at least, not in as much detail. However, I'd like to think that they'd be quite solid, all things considered.
Iron Hands(they have #'s, and the machine is > fanaticism) Not sure about their numbers. However, completely tenacious.
Word Bearers(they have #'s and are fanatics, that's about it) Yeah, high numbers and fanaticism, but if that's all, then the World Eaters would do this far better.
Raven Guard(look at dropzone massacre in a pitched battle) Another example of "good where they're specialised, but lacklustre everywhere else".
Salamanders(too kind, fight a brother would be unimaginable) I'd like to assume here that brotherly sentiment is gone, for the purposes of this, but I just can't see the Salamanders being in the top half.
Alpha Legion Either Alphas or Night Lords should be bottom. Too specialised, and too focused on attacking weak targets, rather than dealing with strong ones.
NLimho are around where I put them at #6, maybe slightly lower around #7-8; all their recruits except those Terran ones are survivors/pirates, they WILL do anything to give them an edge, there is no hesitation. Bottom
Nice list, I've just left a few personal notes about my thoughts.
Big Mac wrote: Magnus had made a pact unknowingly with Tzeentch to temporarily reduce/eliminate perils completely for his sons, so they can cast magic without limit and fighting together only compound their effectiveness.
But they were still at risk of the Flesh Change (see Phosis T'Kar), and Magnus' pact massively reduced the size of his legion.
Alexis Pollux was a nobody, and can't hold Abaddon's jock strap; Abaddon was already a solidified top fighter, general, to reduce his stature is loyalist bias.
To give Pollux credit, he outsmarted Perturabo in a tactical battle. Pollux might not be as physically powerful as Abaddon, I won't contest that, but I would really rather not focus on the strength of an induvidual, and more on the strength of their army, and how they lead it. In these situations, Abaddon isn't the theatre commander, Horus is, but I don't want to focus on the physical strength of any individuals.
[Russ had Angron and his WE surrounded and could have given the order to execute every last one of the WE, WE are more ferocious, SW are ferocity controlled.
From how I read the Night of the Wolf, Russ only had Angron surrounded, not his Legion - something that would have been difficult when the World Eaters were the larger force, and had inflicted more casualties.
Russ could absolutely have killed Angron, not disputing that, but Angron's point was that his Legion didn't need him to win - and they probably would have.
Why don't you just make your pre requisites so that you're favorite legion is #1?
Again, I did mention the prerequisites of "we aren't including the strength of the Primarchs, because I want to focus on the Legions themselves. I thought it wouldn't need explaining that it also applies to singular Legion officers and commanders.
My apologies for not making that crystal clear, but I certainly think I suggested that I wasn't bothering with personal heroics in this thread, and looking at the macro strengths of the Legions, not which named guy was best. Not only that, but I'm hesitant to say if my personal favourite would be number 1, and if we did include personal heroics, they'd probably come out better for it.
[Sevatar was quite a commander, very underrated, knowing that the NL are very much like pirates, only he can subjugate them together outside of Curze
Which speaks more to the disorganisation of the actual Legion itself. If it *needed* a stellar commander to make it somewhat organised and coherent, then the Legion itself had a crippling flaw. This is something the Alpha Legion actually do quite well in, on the micro scale, almost better than anyone else.
you're over looking the power of precog, knowing what happens next greatly helps who could change it, sadly Curze is the only one who couldn't change his fate no matter how hard he tries
Sanguinius had it too - neither Primarchs used it to massive tactical benefit, and more to personal combat, or personal divination. As such, seeing as neither Primarch (as far as I'm aware), uses their precogitive powers to command a battle, I'm not sure if it should be counted.
terror tactics works on marines, just ask that RG they tortured to basically turn him into a newly recruited NL, marines knows no fear, but this is terror, there are many instances where this was shown in the HH books.
On a micro level, yes, you could torture a single marine. You can't torture a whole Legion on the battlefield. Their terror tactics worked against armies with poor morale, where they could sap the morale of the entire armies. This is considerably more difficult on Astartes.
I put them here because they have no known able fighty commander.
Legatus Orpheo, who fought Kharn to a standstill, to the point where Kharn didn't actually known who would win (although Orpheo would certainly die).
And again, I thought I'd made it clear enough - fighty commanders isn't the criteria here. I apologise for not making it more clear, but I assumed when I said I wasn't counting Primarch heroics, I meant all named character heroics.
Vanilla only get you so far.
Largest Legion, best logistics - hardly vanilla. The best? Debatable, but not a bad Legion by any stretch. That's 40k you're thinking of.
I was using the latter #'s.
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to line up to every other piece of information. While I think the first figure is far too small, the Death Guard becoming the largest Legion by almost double, contradicting more numerous sources that imply the Ultramarines and Dark Angels were the largest two, is too out-there for me personally to take at face value.
NLimho are around where I put them at #6, maybe slightly lower around #7-8; all their recruits except those Terran ones are survivors/pirates, they WILL do anything to give them an edge, there is no hesitation.
Exactly. They're not soldiers, they're pirates. They'll *try* anything to give them an advantage, but will that matter when fighting a far more organised, larger, and more skilled force, like the Dark Angels, Imperial Fists or Luna Wolves? They're good, don't get me wrong, but on a holistic level, looking at the Legion in all aspects, they're inferior to most others.
Of course, in my personal opinion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 20:57:44
Alexis Pollux was a nobody, and can't hold Abaddon's jock strap; Abaddon was already a solidified top fighter, general, to reduce his stature is loyalist bias.
To give Pollux credit, he outsmarted Perturabo in a tactical battle. Pollux might not be as physically powerful as Abaddon, I won't contest that, but I would really rather not focus on the strength of an induvidual, and more on the strength of their army, and how they lead it. In these situations, Abaddon isn't the theatre commander, Horus is, but I don't want to focus on the physical strength of any individuals.
Perturabo isn't exactly a genius, he was too eager to get any form of recognition from his father and brothers. He is a Primarch, so kudos to Pollux!
you're over looking the power of precog, knowing what happens next greatly helps who could change it, sadly Curze is the only one who couldn't change his fate no matter how hard he tries
Sanguinius had it too - neither Primarchs used it to massive tactical benefit, and more to personal combat, or personal divination. As such, seeing as neither Primarch (as far as I'm aware), uses their precogitive powers to command a battle, I'm not sure if it should be counted.
You should count precog, Sevatar and quite a few of his brothers had precog genes after they've become legionaires; knowing what to do and how to do it greatly help your future, 'ground hog day'.
I put them here because they have no known able fighty commander.
Legatus Orpheo, who fought Kharn to a standstill, to the point where Kharn didn't actually known who would win (although Orpheo would certainly die).
I don't even know who he is, I'll take a look on Lexi to see his deeds, imo Kharn must of had a off day.
EDIT: can't find Orpheo anywhere? did you misremember or mistaken his name?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines
Vanilla only get you so far.
Largest Legion, best logistics - hardly vanilla. The best? Debatable, but not a bad Legion by any stretch. That's 40k you're thinking of.
Vanilla isn't a derogatory term to describe marines, I have placed them just above mid level, they aren't elite, but they are competent in term of legion quality assertions.
NLimho are around where I put them at #6, maybe slightly lower around #7-8; all their recruits except those Terran ones are survivors/pirates, they WILL do anything to give them an edge, there is no hesitation.
Exactly. They're not soldiers, they're pirates. They'll *try* anything to give them an advantage, but will that matter when fighting a far more organised, larger, and more skilled force, like the Dark Angels, Imperial Fists or Luna Wolves? They're good, don't get me wrong, but on a holistic level, looking at the Legion in all aspects, they're inferior to most others.
NL are like modern day ex elite military mercs, not your Somali poorly trained pirates; IF are like modern day US marines or army well trained and disciplined troops, DA and LW are like modern day spec ops troops in mass.
Of course, in my personal opinion.
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Here are my thoughts on ranking the legions, this won’t be an exact strongest to weakest but rough tiers, as the exact nature of the fight can vary the rankings by some amount so I’ll judge by potential strength and generally just a generic fight match up of about a planet in size. Also I won’t include the II and XI for obvious reasons haha. I also avoided reading others response to get my initial thoughts, then I’ll read to see what others think!
For those too lazy/busy, the short of it is that generally speaking numbers matter most, your average legionary from one legion is going to be roughly equivalent to another. Sure some are strong in shooting, some in melee, but across the averages we can assume a planet sized conflict will involve all of the above, so each legion can play to its strengths to some degree. Overall I’d say Dark Angels or Ultramarines, with the Word Bearers and Luna Wolves being somewhat close seconds.
Spoiler:
Lower tier- Night Lords, Raven Guard, Salamanders, World Eaters, White Scars (?) (all depends on the scenario of course but we’re assuming the entire legion fighting for one planet)
The Night Lords I consider the weakest overall I’d say, as their lack of cohesion and scruples leads to a legion not particularly good in open combat, and one that caves quickly when things turn. In an asymmetrical war however they will shoot up, but even then when its legion on legion that’ll only get you so far (see Thramas and it’s net result).
The Raven Guard and Salamanders I rank here because of numbers and a few flaws that can be taken advantage of. The Raven Guard are a small legion and shy from open combat, so in a legion on legion war they are at a distinct disadvantage on both accounts. They rank higher than the Night Lords since they would be more effective at having an overall plan, and at keeping the plan going even with significant pressure. At the end of the day though, a determined/heartless legion would easily attrition the guerrilla attacks if the Raven Guard fail in their initial gamble, see Guiliman and Corax training. Essentially the Raven Guard and Night Lords can stay in the fight longer than many legions, but if things don’t play out perfectly for them then it’s only stalling the inevitable.
The Salamanders I rank low as they are low in numbers and favor close ranging weapons. Combine that with a potentially large flaw of having humanity (terrible I know), and you have a small force that needs to close the gap, but also wants to protect whatever innocents could be targeted. This in short leads to sub optimal performance. The Salamanders are tough, but being about a third the size of the larger legions I don’t see them having the numbers to sustain their close range forces, and at range they are similar to the baseline legion, so they lose by numbers against most legions.
The World Eaters are up there on an individual level/tactical level because of their raw ferocity, but at the strategic level they are predictable. This means you’d probably get the Leman Russ scenario in most situations, the World Eaters will win battles but lose sight of the overall picture.
White Scars- I actually don’t remember how many they number, so it depends on that on exactly where they go. Their fast speed is a boon but on a planetary scale I feel like it’d be inevitable they’d get bogged down eventually with so many marines on one planet, it’s more a question of how much damage they can do and if they avoid getting boxed in. I feel like it’d be a repeat of path of heaven, minus the inter planet nature of it and a means of escape.
Mid level legions- Emperor’s Children, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Word Bearers, and the Space Wolves
Alpha Legion- like the Raven Guard but more of them, giving much better sustainability. Also since the Alpha legion has such an unknown arsenal they could have better equipment for more traditional fights (Land Raiders etc). Assuming they don’t have infiltrators at the start of the planet sized war, otherwise they’d be higher up as the inbuilt turncoats would cause more confusion than ambushes and hit and run tactics the NL and RG would do. They could easily be top tier if we knew their exact size and if it was large enough, as they are adaptable and well equipped.
Death Guard- a bit like the Salamanders but with chemicals. This does give them a bit more potential range (phosphex shells etc.), but many legions do have destroyers already so many legions in theory would have the knowledge of how to mitigate the impact, so it’s not an instant I win button. It depends on their exact numbers, I’ve seen as low as 100,000 to 200,00 plus, in which case they’d go up to high tier since they’d have deadly weaponry and numbers.
Imperial Fists and Emperor’s children- both are good legions with different emphasizes but similar records, but the numbers I’ve seen for their legion means they’d do well against the smaller ones but probably suffer against the larger ones. If the Imperial Fists get to button up then they’d do better than the EC probably, but then again the EC would do better once they got into closer range so in my opinion it would even out.
The Iron Warriors are similar but allegedly a bit larger than the IF, so they’d fair a bit better by virtue of having more bodies available. The Iron Warriors also could have some early success by just willingly taking the casualties and making the enemy blink first so to speak, but could struggle against the more mobile legions, and would get out attritioned by the larger ones if they got too stubborn. Now human regiments could have a big impact here since the IW loved using them, but I don’t think we have an exact number for how many that is, but it could potentially be a lot. Generally speaking they’d do well holding an objective, but in a fluid and dynamic “both sides arrive on the planet at the same time” I don’t think pre-fab emplacements will be enough to save them against the larger legions.
The Iron Hands probably would be similar to the IF and IW honestly, but preferring armor and technology on the offense instead of defense while being roughly the same size. Again they’d do well but their distrust of human support means they’d probably have less spire Guard equivalents.
The Space Wolves are good and have experience in fighting Astartes, and are on the upper level of mid because of this. Having said that the estimates tend to put them at around the 100,00 mark if a bit lower, which means they can lose to some of the larger legions by virtue of numbers if they aren’t cleverly used.
Now for high tier, we have the Sons of Horus, Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, and Ultramarines.
First the Blood Angels, who I put at the low end of high tier. They are about average in size based on what I could find, but have the tactical ability of any legion while having the potential savagery of Russ or Angron. I think they’d do the best of all the “average sized” legions, but their hesitation to give into the rage means they ultimately still don’t punch hard enough to take out the large legions.
The Sons of Horus are similar, they at their height were a bit larger than average from what I read but not quite Ultra larger, if you catch my drift. My understanding is that they are similar to the Wolves in ferocity but larger, and with Horus who has better military insight than Russ, leading to cleaner victories. They can do very well, relying on raw savagery and Horus’ insight to make up for their smaller legion.
Thousand Sons are the smallest here, but their warp powers are very good and not many legions can counter it. If all 80k or so are on one planet, may the Emperor have mercy on who they fight.
I would rate the Word Bearers at the high end of high tier. They have numbers and the fanatic behavior to overwhelm many of the smaller legions in a straight up fight. Having said that, they don’t have much else. They aren’t particularly gifted fighters and Lorgar isn’t particularly tactically brilliant, nor do they have any special tech. Now if we include demons and human cults across the empire then then things change, it’s hard to fight back when the warp is spewing millions of demons and the very planet begins to fight you. We don’t have a number of cults the Word Bearers can muster at the start of the heresy (when their max strength was, and in theory they had the demon abilities decades before the heresy), but it’s probably a lot.
The Ultramarines are another top tier. They are one of the largest at their height, have 500 worlds of spire Guard equivalents, and are led by a strategically brilliant mind. I’m sure the local Ultramar fleet under control of the XIII vastly outnumbered the other legions if you put them in one spot, but I’m kind of ignoring fleets since we don’t have concrete numbers and ships can vary quite a bit. They may not be best at anything(like the Word Bearers ironically), but through sheer weight and capable if uninspired doctrine they would overwhelm most legions in a straight fight.
The Dark Angels also could stomp some #%^* in their day. At their height they had similar numbers to the Ultramarines, and the dreadwing would probably erase what ever is front of them even just with their ground equipment since they had unique access to all sorts of arcane equipment we know little about. Technically they wouldn’t have the Lion yet, and that would be the one weakness they’d have, other wise the legion would be a bit weaker if they wanted the Lion, but still highly competitive.
Big Mac wrote: Perturabo isn't exactly a genius, he was too eager to get any form of recognition from his father and brothers. He is a Primarch, so kudos to Pollux!
He was still one of the strategically best Primarchs. He just had a bad habit of making things difficult for him to gain praise. This doesn't seem to be one of those times.
You should count precog, Sevatar and quite a few of his brothers had precog genes after they've become legionaires; knowing what to do and how to do it greatly help your future, 'ground hog day'.
Maybe, but none of them seem to use it in a command aspect, and nearly always in a personal one. Seeing as I'm ignoring personal combat traits, I'm still unable to find evidence of one of the Night Lords or Sanguinius himself use their precognition to lead their troops.
Vanilla isn't a derogatory term to describe marines, I have placed them just above mid level, they aren't elite, but they are competent in term of legion quality assertions.
I know it's not derogatory, but it's simply not accurate to describe them. They were the premier Legion in several factors, and were at least competent all around. They might not be the best Legion, but to suggest they were completely lacking any kind of strengths or flavour as vanilla would imply isn't true. They were no more vanilla than the Fists, the Luna Wolves, or the Salamanders.
NL are like modern day ex elite military mercs, not your Somali poorly trained pirates; IF are like modern day US marines or army well trained and disciplined troops, DA and LW are like modern day spec ops troops in mass.
But modern day ex-military mercs are still inferior to current military soldiers - mercenaries lack the same discipline, organisation, coherency, and supplies that a proper army has. Even *if* the Night Lords were better individually than other Astartes (which I doubt), they'd still be inferior in this scenario because they have little to no coherency as an organised army. You're absolutely right, they are pirates, and come with all the negatives that bestows.
If this was a question of "a single Space Marine from each Legion enter a fight, which one is standing at the end?" (which would be a cool thread, don't get me wrong - if you don't create it, I might), then I'd probably rate the Night Lords very highly, and someone like an Imperial Fist or Ultramarine comparatively lowly, but I'm talking Legions - not individuals - and as a Legion, the Night Lords are fractured, disorganised, and are not well equipped to handle mass conflict with another Legion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 21:52:49
You should count precog, Sevatar and quite a few of his brothers had precog genes after they've become legionaires; knowing what to do and how to do it greatly help your future, 'ground hog day'.
Maybe, but none of them seem to use it in a command aspect, and nearly always in a personal one. Seeing as I'm ignoring personal combat traits, I'm still unable to find evidence of one of the Night Lords or Sanguinius himself use their precognition to lead their troops.
Evidence from a 1ksons(Arvida?) with precog, I'd imagine no different, leading your troops down 1 corridor and say stop to avoid detection or ambush a patrol party, think that Tom Cruise movie 'Edge of Tomorrow'.
My apologies, I did misspell his name: Orfeo Cassandar.
Ah, so his potential prowess was cut short by a Primarch.
NL are like modern day ex elite military mercs, not your Somali poorly trained pirates; IF are like modern day US marines or army well trained and disciplined troops, DA and LW are like modern day spec ops troops in mass.
But modern day ex-military mercs are still inferior to current military soldiers - mercenaries lack the same discipline, organisation, coherency, and supplies that a proper army has. Even *if* the Night Lords were better individually than other Astartes (which I doubt), they'd still be inferior in this scenario because they have little to no coherency as an organised army. You're absolutely right, they are pirates, and come with all the negatives that bestows.
I miscounted, I had them at #7 on my list, I also put DA/LW/IF ahead of the NL, even though I'm a fan of NL I'm trying not to be bias in my assessment.
If this was a question of "a single Space Marine from each Legion enter a fight, which one is standing at the end?" (which would be a cool thread, don't get me wrong - if you don't create it, I might), then I'd probably rate the Night Lords very highly, and someone like an Imperial Fist or Ultramarine comparatively lowly, but I'm talking Legions - not individuals - and as a Legion, the Night Lords are fractured, disorganised, and are not well equipped to handle mass conflict with another Legion.
In a 1v1 arena, I'd put WE/1ksons/NL/BA/SW/EC as my top 6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 23:58:57
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Wait, hold up. I need a rules clarification here. How, exactly, are the Primarchs relaying orders to their troops? What, exactly, needs to be done to knock the Primarch's "strategic thinking" out of the fight? If you're wanting to know what Legion is best at standing on an open field firing bolters until the other side exists, the answer is Ultramarines, because there are more of them than anyone else, followed by Word Bearers. Will electronic warfare (which I expect the Alpha Legion rocks at and the Night Lords are pretty good at) allow a Primarch's orders to be interfered with? Does a Marine just need to tap the Primarch and yell "olly olly oxenfree?" Night Lords, Raven Guard, and Luna Wolves are all good at that.
Big Mac wrote:Evidence from a 1ksons(Arvida?) with precog, I'd imagine no different, leading your troops down 1 corridor and say stop to avoid detection or ambush a patrol party, think that Tom Cruise movie 'Edge of Tomorrow'.
Still small-scale, I'm afraid. While it would certainly help on micro-levels, it doesn't ever seem used in a command role, and thus, it wouldn't be right to include it.
Ah, so his potential prowess was cut short by a Primarch.
Quite. He matches Kharn blow for blow, to the point where Kharn genuinely thinks that the battle could go either way - of course, this is when Orfeo's men have all been killed, and Orfeo is literally the last Ultramarine on Armatura - and then during a break in the fighting, where Orfeo asks Kharn to surrender, Angron comes in, dismisses Kharn, and tears Orfeo limb from limb.
I miscounted, I had them at #7 on my list, I also put DA/LW/IF ahead of the NL, even though I'm a fan of NL I'm trying not to be bias in my assessment.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Night Lords fan - if I collected a traitor Legion, it'd be them or Iron Warriors. However, I know that Night Lords aren't anything like any of the others, and in this particular test, suffer hard.
EmpNortonII wrote:Wait, hold up. I need a rules clarification here. How, exactly, are the Primarchs relaying orders to their troops?
Assumed vox-communication from their ship/psychic relays/vox-comms on the ground.
In truth, the reason I specified that was so the Legions still fight like they normally do. I didn't want a situation where we'd start assuming that, because of no Primarchs, suddenly the World Eaters develop more tactical insight, or the Dark Angels lose their mastery of strategy.
In general, most Legions fight in roughly the same manner with or without their Primarch being present - that's the point of what I was trying to set up. That we don't end up with Legions acting in a way that they normally wouldn't.
So, it really doesn't matter too much if the Primarch is there or not, but I'll assume they are, commanding from a bunker backfield, or in a starship in orbit.
What, exactly, needs to be done to knock the Primarch's "strategic thinking" out of the fight?
Again, my point was rather "I want X Legion to fight like X Legion, not Y Legion". However, yes, you could disrupt command links in the same way you could normally, and that should be factored in.
If you're wanting to know what Legion is best at standing on an open field firing bolters until the other side exists, the answer is Ultramarines, because there are more of them than anyone else, followed by Word Bearers.
Dark Angels would win out over Word Bearers, and I don't know if Ultramarine numbers would be enough against someone like the Luna Wolves, Thousand Sons, or Dark Angels, for example. There's more than just bolters, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that a Primarch being a good fighter should be able to make up for their weaknesses of their Legion.
Will electronic warfare (which I expect the Alpha Legion rocks at and the Night Lords are pretty good at) allow a Primarch's orders to be interfered with?
In the same way that any method of their disruptive tactics would affect a type of battle. So, in a hypothetical pitched battle, Alpha Legion versus Imperial Fists, the Alpha Legion will attempt as part of their strategy to cause disruption in the Imperial Fist command network, but are still having to fight a pitched battle.
And again, from what I gather, most Legions fight pretty much the same way, even when separated from their Primarch. I only meant to reinforce that idea.
Does a Marine just need to tap the Primarch and yell "olly olly oxenfree?" Night Lords, Raven Guard, and Luna Wolves are all good at that.
Not just "tap", it must be assumed that you need a force with a certain degree of strength to kill any Primarch. However, I don't know if you're understanding the feeling I'm going for with this. I don't want this to devolve into "Angron's the meanest Primarch, so his Legion is the best" kind of approach. A Primarch is one person, but how their forces fight, what they have access to, and how skilled they are are bigger indicators of the strength of the Legion itself.
Yes, I include the ability and skill of executing speartip strikes as a massive advantage of the Luna Wolves, but I don't want it to end up with a case of "they killed the Primarch, they win GG", if you get me. That might make them the best leader killers, but not necessarily the best Legion.
Space Wolves(their savagery and fairly numerical #) Savage and certainly relished attacking other Astartes, but they weren't massively numerous (130,000 at peak, 100,000 normally, about mid sized) and took more losses against the World Eaters than the World Eaters took during the Night of the Wolf.
Russ was third in number of victories . Only the lion and Horus exceeded his victories. Russ is an extremely under rated commander.
Dark Angels(able off field commander(Lion), tactics/training, fairly good #'s) Good numbers, probably second largest. Tactically better than nearly all Legions, and with good tech, but logistically inferior to the Ultramarines.
We don't know enough about them yet. They were the number one legion until the rangdan xenocides. And they probsbly did something to wreck their composure.
Imperial Fists(Able field duelist(Sigsmund), discipline bar none, fairly good #'s and tactics) Around the same size as the Wolves, roughly 100,000 men, so medium sized. I don't really want to include duellist feats, as most Legions had someone within that power level, and in terms of command, I'd rather focus on leadership and combat tactic, rather than combat strength - my fault for not making that clear.
I'd rate them a lot higher actually. They had the strongest fleet. Control the high ground, you control the battle. That counts more than sheer numbers. Dorn had zero charisma but there was a reason he was the emperors right hand.
Night lords(they have able field commander(Sevatar), precog genes, terror tactics) Sevatar seems like a good duellist, but as a commander, I don't think he was particularly special. Plus, their terror tactics, while good at taking on xenos or humans, probably aren't that capable of threatening Astartes. I would personally put the Night Lords quite low down, and certainly lower than the next three.
Night lords were pragmatists. No glory, no wasteful tactics. But they got things done. And left worlds cowering in fear.
Ultramarines(they have #'s, tactics/training, able off field commander(Guilliman)) Purely from sheer numbers and tactical/logistic skill, the Ultramarines had massive advantages over most Legions, plus their rate of conquest leaves me confused why they're so low down, especially lower than the Night Lords. I might not put the Ultras in 1st, but certainly in the top 5, for me.
Easy. Ultras rebuilt. Most other legions conquered and left the rebuilding to the imperial authority consolidating in their wake. Gully liked to do that himself. Slowed him down considerably, which was only compensated not by brilliance but by the size of his legion. Ultras were good, but dogmatic, by the book and inflexible.
World Eaters(they have #'s, able field commander(Kharn), savagery bar none) At least 150,000 World Eaters, so certainly a larger Legion. I'd actually be inclined to put them higher than the Space Wolves, or at least, would beat the Wolves in fight.
Death guard(they are relentless and have huge #'s) Death Guard numbers are a bit of a strange case, actually. Two sources claim very different sizes, both seem unreasonably small or large. The smaller one, claimed in the first HH Black Book, is 98,000, which seems far too small. Alternatively, we have Flight of the Eisenstein, which claims 7 Great Companies of around 70,000 men each, which puts them at 490,000, larger than the Ultramarines (who are canonically supposed to be the largest Legion).
Iron Warriors(they have #'s and are relentless, not afraid of the dirty work) Also quite tactically gifted too. I'd like to think they should be higher.
Large legions for sure, but not the most talented. These were attrition based legions, who treated marines as expendable fodder. They made victories not by brilliance, but by throwing more marines into the grinder. Marines using guard tactics. Wasteful, in other words.
EmpNortonII wrote:Should we assume the Alpha Legion has infiltrated its opponent as well as they infiltrated the Raven Guard following the Dropsite Massacre?
In one of the various scenarios, yes. This isn't just in one battle, but of a variety of battles against a variety of Legions. I don't think in every situation the Alpha Legion would have the same advantage as they did over the Raven Guard, but in scenarios where the enemy Legion is unprepared, then the Alpha Legion have massive advantages that nearly any other Legion has nothing close to.
However, in scenarios where the Alpha Legion are being caught unaware, or where their enemy is prepared for them, or in pure pitched combat, this trait is severely lessened.
Space Wolves(their savagery and fairly numerical #) Savage and certainly relished attacking other Astartes, but they weren't massively numerous (130,000 at peak, 100,000 normally, about mid sized) and took more losses against the World Eaters than the World Eaters took during the Night of the Wolf.
Russ was third in number of victories . Only the lion and Horus exceeded his victories. Russ is an extremely under rated commander.
Citation? Not saying the Wolves weren't good, but Guilliman is cited to have gotten more victories certainly than Russ, and I'm pretty sure it's unclear if Guilliman or the Lion brought more worlds to compliance - of course, Horus claimed the most.
If you can find me a reference point where it says Russ claimed more worlds than Guilliman, I'd be happy to see it.
Imperial Fists(Able field duelist(Sigsmund), discipline bar none, fairly good #'s and tactics) Around the same size as the Wolves, roughly 100,000 men, so medium sized. I don't really want to include duellist feats, as most Legions had someone within that power level, and in terms of command, I'd rather focus on leadership and combat tactic, rather than combat strength - my fault for not making that clear.
I'd rate them a lot higher actually. They had the strongest fleet. Control the high ground, you control the battle. That counts more than sheer numbers. Dorn had zero charisma but there was a reason he was the emperors right hand.
I'm not 100% sure about the strongest (the World Eaters probably had the best naval commander, and the Ultramarines had a pretty sizable fleet, but they didn't have the Phalanx). Again, I'd rather that the fleet played little impact on the ground war - otherwise, yeah, fleet beats all, but that's not particularly entertaining (probably why most 40k fiction isn't just "there was heresy. Then there was the orbital bombardment from the fleet. The end".
Also, Dorn wasn't the Emperor's right hand. He was his castellan, the closest thing to a bodyguard beyond the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood, but his right hand was Horus, and his left was Malcador.
Night lords(they have able field commander(Sevatar), precog genes, terror tactics) Sevatar seems like a good duellist, but as a commander, I don't think he was particularly special. Plus, their terror tactics, while good at taking on xenos or humans, probably aren't that capable of threatening Astartes. I would personally put the Night Lords quite low down, and certainly lower than the next three.
Night lords were pragmatists. No glory, no wasteful tactics. But they got things done. And left worlds cowering in fear.
Their fear tactics were quite wasteful, in my eyes. They didn't liberate worlds, they didn't establish room for empire building, they just subdued planets and broke them in much the same way the Alpha Legion did. Their fear tactics took longer to do than a strike from the Blood Angels, or a speartip assault from either the Khan or Horus. I wouldn't call them pragmatists. If there's any Legion I'd call pragmatic in war, it's probably the Ultramarines. They certainly stuck true to their tenets of war, but those tenet were built around pragmatism. That's where the whole "theoretical/practical" Ultramarine doctrine comes in.
The only Legion I can think of being more practical and pragmatic would be the Sons of Horus, who really did fight dirty, but had the skill as an army to make it work where the Night Lords couldn't.
Ultramarines(they have #'s, tactics/training, able off field commander(Guilliman)) Purely from sheer numbers and tactical/logistic skill, the Ultramarines had massive advantages over most Legions, plus their rate of conquest leaves me confused why they're so low down, especially lower than the Night Lords. I might not put the Ultras in 1st, but certainly in the top 5, for me.
Easy. Ultras rebuilt. Most other legions conquered and left the rebuilding to the imperial authority consolidating in their wake. Gully liked to do that himself. Slowed him down considerably, which was only compensated not by brilliance but by the size of his legion. Ultras were good, but dogmatic, by the book and inflexible.
But the Ultramarines reclaimed more worlds than nearly any other Legion, only confirmed beaten out by Horus himself, and it's debated if he or the Lion were next most successful. Yes, Guilliman probably would have been even faster had he left it to his subordinates (which he often did), or just kept pushing on, but the reason his Legion got so large was simply because of that, and that size allowed for his men to spread out more and more and snowball into claiming more worlds. It's how Legions like the World Eaters were able to claim so many recruits, even if not at the efficiency of the Ultramarines - they recruited from worlds they conquered, and the more they conquered, the more they grew, allowing them to conquer more.
Again, 40k Ultramarines were certainly dogmatic and inflexible, but the HH books show the Ultramarines as being quite robust when it comes to changing battle situations.
And even despite all this, I don't think they'd be the best Legion regardless.
Large legions for sure, but not the most talented. These were attrition based legions, who treated marines as expendable fodder. They made victories not by brilliance, but by throwing more marines into the grinder. Marines using guard tactics. Wasteful, in other words.
However, they certainly did achieve results. The World Eaters beat the Space Wolves, and the Iron Warriors had good tactical acumen. They just kept being posted to warzones that would have near-annihilated other Legions. While I don't think they would be in the top 5, they weren't slouches.
There's also the question of what they'd do with conquered territory.
Most of the Primarchs are too primadonna to lead an empire. They didn't have to, because Big E was in charge.
Lion could organize an empire, but lacked the charisma to lead.
Horus could lead an empire. Could probably organize one too.
But amateurs study battle, experts study logistics. UltraMarines would do well on the logistics front, would be highly organized, and has a charismatic leader. The well-roundedness that makes them bland also makes them a strong contender for a protracted campaign.
I'd be inclined to say the legion with the best fleet. While it would make for boring fluff, in reality void war would be everything in 30-40k. If one legion can freely attack from orbit the differences in fighting style on the ground are as important as the colour of armour they're wearing
If we're taking that out of the equation I'll give another boring answer; Ultramarines. Their numbers can't be ignored. To use a tabletop analogy, it wouldn't really matter if one guy's 2000 point army has better chapter/legion tactics when his opponent is fielding 3000 points
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Do the Word Bearers have those three Abyss-class battleships? If so, couldn't they simply withdraw from any ground battle, keep it in space, and steamroll the competition? All three ships supporting each other at Lorgar's word seems pretty unstoppable.
Bloodmoon Hunters (Iron Hands Successors)
Lunar Venatorii Regiments (Astra Miltarium)
Ordo Machinum (Inquisition) 
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
