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oh @@ ok, I always thought it was the same as shooting. I learned something new today! I guess I need to comb through my psychic list now for the spells that do not target closest unit. : )

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am not sure how you nuke heroes from orbit like snipers using psychic. Smite spam? Smite targets nearest target and all the same rules protecting heroes within a big blob of chaff applies to psychics too. So as long as the hero has stuff in front of it, psychic powers can't target it either.

Sniper are a bit of a sore point for me because imperium gets vindicares and other snipers so easily. While I play chaos. Everytime I look across a sea of cheap infantry to that untargettable cheap company commander and the other imperium heroes which basically can't be targeted... Whereas if I am facing vindicare or a large enough number of snipers I have to be really careful about my heroes.

Tzeentch's Firestorm, Gift of Chaos, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gaze, and Doombolt all ignore character targeting restrictions. Typically I have at least 2-3 of those powers on the board somewhere because I do not run a goatman-based """"Thousand Sons""""" army. Usually that's Doombolt Infernal and Firestorm with Doombolt on Ahriman to make him more reliable.

Combine that with almost always having a unit with 12" move and fly with Warptime, and often having a heldrake, my Tsons are among my most reliable armies for taking down unsuspecting characters.

Eldar, in addition to having Rangers, also have a few tricks to snipe Characters:
Autatch with a Reaper Launcher (Index) and the WL trait that allows him to target characters is one way.

But my favorite trick is to use a Hemlock with Jinx. Find a space to move them in where they are the closest to the Character you want dead. Cast Jinx on them, then shoot them with 2D3 auto-hitting S12 AP-4 D2 shots
Admittedly, this is best used against Marine and Marine-like armies (Necrons, for example) that do not have lots of bodies on the field to block such movement in the first turn and typically only have 4++ Iron Halo equivalents, which become 5++ with Jinx.
Often I'll move the Hemlock to just in front of the Characters "bubble wrap" unit, since cast Jinx on the Character and in the shooting phase, focus fire on killing the bubble wrap.
Once the Character is now the closest target for the Hemlock, I open fire with it.

But even with these tricks, Character sniping isn't always the best tactic. It certainly can demoralize your opponent, increasing the chances they will make mistakes, but in general, it's better to just kill the units that Character is buffing.

So while Vindicares and Eliminators provide Imperium armies with a neat trick, I don't see it as all that "meta-changing".
At the very least, for me, this is further reason to NEVER take Warlocks either on foot or bike. They are far too easy a target for snipers and fail their powers way too often to worth jack.

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Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am not sure how you nuke heroes from orbit like snipers using psychic. Smite spam? Smite targets nearest target and all the same rules protecting heroes within a big blob of chaff applies to psychics too. So as long as the hero has stuff in front of it, psychic powers can't target it either.

Sniper are a bit of a sore point for me because imperium gets vindicares and other snipers so easily. While I play chaos. Everytime I look across a sea of cheap infantry to that untargettable cheap company commander and the other imperium heroes which basically can't be targeted... Whereas if I am facing vindicare or a large enough number of snipers I have to be really careful about my heroes.

AGAIN, Chaos has snipers, not even psychik ones, seriously, you even get them for cheap if you so sorely need them.

I don't play forgeworld... Besides I play CSM, and some Daemons. Nothing in the CSM codex or the Daemons codex has snipers ... unless I am missing something.

Chaos can get Vindicares too, btw. Or any of the Assassins

But you have to take Cypher as your WL (he has the IMPERIUM Keyword). So you could take him in an AUX detachment (-1CP) and now you are free to either take 3 Vindis in a Vanguard detachment (0CPs) or spend 1 CP to take 1 Vindi from your Reinforcement points
You sacrifice ALOT to do this, namely CPs and access to Faction specific Relics, but it can be done if you really want Vindis

If you go the Reinforcement points route, the single Vindi does not take up a Detachment, so you'll only have "spent" 1 Detachment on Cypher himself. You can then use you other 2 Detachments on "proper" Chaos stuff

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Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't play forgeworld... Besides I play CSM, and some Daemons. Nothing in the CSM codex or the Daemons codex has snipers ... unless I am missing something.

Well then you are bound by Psy, still your stipulation of chaos not having Snipers is wrong, because it is all encompassing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Chaos can get Vindicares too, btw. Or any of the Assassins

But you have to take Cypher as your WL (he has the IMPERIUM Keyword). So you could take him in an AUX detachment (-1CP) and now you are free to either take 3 Vindis in a Vanguard detachment (0CPs) or spend 1 CP to take 1 Vindi from your Reinforcement points
You sacrifice ALOT to do this, namely CPs and access to Faction specific Relics, but it can be done if you really want Vindis

If you go the Reinforcement points route, the single Vindi does not take up a Detachment, so you'll only have "spent" 1 Detachment on Cypher himself. You can then use you other 2 Detachments on "proper" Chaos stuff

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Also This.

Mandragola wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I am only coming up with orks, tyranids and daemons as having no snipers... it seems they are more available than psykers to the general population.

So...meh?

How about Battle Sisters, with neither snipers nor psykers?

#Imperium

Yeah, but no: I shouldn't have to go outside my faction for core mechanics like targeting characters or dealing mortal wounds. I'm counting on the next year's codex to remedy this.

That said, the new assassin package looks pretty worthwhile.

I’m not sure whether I agree here. I do like cohesive armies made from the same codex but at some point the factions have to be different – good at some things but not others. If every faction has snipers (or cavalry, big mecha LoWs or whatever else) then that would be quite boring.

That said, SoB snipers could be cool. I’m not saying they shouldn’t exist. But neither do I have the objection to using soup that some people do.

I'm not calling for actual snipers, nor saying that all armies should be more alike. But 8th ed. has committed to auras as a core mechanic, so it seems all (or none, but not some) armies should have a way to counter them. Snipers and psykers offer two options, but Sisters have neither. In the absence of those, maybe a stratagem that lets a single unit's flamers pick any target or something like that.

Similarly, the lack of any way to deal mortal wounds is an issue. In the era of knights with high toughness, lots of wounds, and awesome saves, mortal wounds offer a core mechanic that bypasses one of those. Sisters do have melta spam, but if you're not screening your knight against a 12" range meltagun, you're doing it wrong.

So in terms of these core mechanics, I'll be disappointed if there's nothing in the codex to give us some of the same leverage other armies have. I like snipers, I just don't want to be forced to ally them in.

Mandragola wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am not sure how you nuke heroes from orbit like snipers using psychic. Smite spam? Smite targets nearest target and all the same rules protecting heroes within a big blob of chaff applies to psychics too. So as long as the hero has stuff in front of it, psychic powers can't target it either.

This is wrong. Smite targets the nearest unit but not all psychic powers do. The protection for characters only applies to shooting - not psychic powers.

huh, I never thought of that...makes me rethink psychic maelstrom on my astropath

@the_scotsman you left out the IG command squad w/snipers in your comparison...they're like 32pts for a 4-man unit that could hit on 3's rerolling misses with an order or reroll 1s to hit normally. For under 100 points you could have 12 snipers...

Yeah, originally I really wanted to get an Astropath into my list. Figured a deny and a targetable ~1 mortal/turn to couple with my sniper scouts is well worth it for 20some pts. But then also realized that with most everyone also having snipers as well, he’s going to die instantly too, so while certainly not a bad deal does feel a lot less like an auto include.

Yay for vindicares.


Just had a game yesterday and had this happen to me.

First turn I shoot, roll a 1 to wound, reroll with a CP, get the wound off, and he makes his armor save. I pay a CP to shoot again and target a new character, hit, and roll another 1 to wound.

Second turn I roll a 1 to hit, CP reroll another 1.

Third turn I hit, roll a 1 to wound. We called it because trajann died the next turn causeing me to auto loose cause I had no way to score any points.


Note I payed a CP to get the assassin in my army, so he costed me 85 points and 4 CP to do nothing the entire game.

I actually don't see a whole lot of snipers in my meta or at tournaments I attend (so I'm probably making a mistake by running them) and even if they were out there I'd still run an astropath just have to be judicious about how you move him about the table If played properly he will definitely get his points back and that remove cover ability is dope.

@Eihnlaser yeah that's why I need 12 average snipers rather than one super sniper

 Peregrine wrote:

leopard wrote:
we have a local Dark Angels player who typically has 20-25 sniper scouts, you get used to not bothering with 'critical' characters.

personally it needs limiting in some way, or characters need a decent further points drop.

main issue though being how some armies can be basically "all sniper" while others have zero access to them

If they're bringing all snipers bring all tanks and laugh as you wipe them off the table. Snipers are fine, and if anything they're too weak. Perhaps you should try to build a functioning army instead of a CCG-style list of character buffs and stratagems?

ROFL...

I don't use characters in any critical role, indeed they tend to be a case of "as few as possible", largely because of scouts so I hardly have a character buff army. I'd use stratagems more if I remembered them more often.

issue is one that some armies of the game have long range ability to snipe characters, but more critically to do mortal wounds at the same time.

Yes I could go armour heavy as a response, and when I fancy breaking my IG out they certainly have the toys to do it, just find that style of army a bit 'meah' to be honest, it is a valid solution to the problem - note the army best able to bring armour to counter snipers also has easy access to snipers, Nids have less armour, Orks don;t have very good armour either.

Incidentally I actually agree on snipers being too weak, my issue is not that they are too strong, my issue is that there are too many of them in some armies.

If snipers were lone individuals, closer to the assassin types, open to all or most at least armies, but something you didn't get many of they would be fine. Keep the "sniper units" as not having the character snipe, just the range and current profile outside that and not really a problem, even if the Sniper then gets a buff say getting "AP" v Invulnerable saves.

mean time they block of 20-25 scouts gets munched if I get close with basic troops, just need to keep characters out of the way otherwise the Ork or Nid ones tend not to live long enough to be worth bringing.

Just think the game would be better without this sort of hard counter being available in quantities

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yay for vindicares.


Just had a game yesterday and had this happen to me.

First turn I shoot, roll a 1 to wound, reroll with a CP, get the wound off, and he makes his armor save. I pay a CP to shoot again and target a new character, hit, and roll another 1 to wound.

Second turn I roll a 1 to hit, CP reroll another 1.

Third turn I hit, roll a 1 to wound. We called it because trajann died the next turn causeing me to auto loose cause I had no way to score any points.


Note I payed a CP to get the assassin in my army, so he costed me 85 points and 4 CP to do nothing the entire game.

That...sucks. Maybe a good reason to go with Eliminators instead. At least a min unit has 3 shots per turn, thereby spreading out potential bad luck (hopefully)

-

leopard wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

leopard wrote:
we have a local Dark Angels player who typically has 20-25 sniper scouts, you get used to not bothering with 'critical' characters.

personally it needs limiting in some way, or characters need a decent further points drop.

main issue though being how some armies can be basically "all sniper" while others have zero access to them

If they're bringing all snipers bring all tanks and laugh as you wipe them off the table. Snipers are fine, and if anything they're too weak. Perhaps you should try to build a functioning army instead of a CCG-style list of character buffs and stratagems?

ROFL...

I don't use characters in any critical role, indeed they tend to be a case of "as few as possible", largely because of scouts so I hardly have a character buff army. I'd use stratagems more if I remembered them more often.

issue is one that some armies of the game have long range ability to snipe characters, but more critically to do mortal wounds at the same time.

Yes I could go armour heavy as a response, and when I fancy breaking my IG out they certainly have the toys to do it, just find that style of army a bit 'meah' to be honest, it is a valid solution to the problem - note the army best able to bring armour to counter snipers also has easy access to snipers, Nids have less armour, Orks don;t have very good armour either.

Incidentally I actually agree on snipers being too weak, my issue is not that they are too strong, my issue is that there are too many of them in some armies.

If snipers were lone individuals, closer to the assassin types, open to all or most at least armies, but something you didn't get many of they would be fine. Keep the "sniper units" as not having the character snipe, just the range and current profile outside that and not really a problem, even if the Sniper then gets a buff say getting "AP" v Invulnerable saves.

mean time they block of 20-25 scouts gets munched if I get close with basic troops, just need to keep characters out of the way otherwise the Ork or Nid ones tend not to live long enough to be worth bringing.

Just think the game would be better without this sort of hard counter being available in quantities

Compare the number of lists in competitive play that spam snipers to the number of lists in competitive play that spam characters, and tell me which rule is hideously, laughably overpowered and which one is a woefully impotent counter.

We need WAY more snipers with the level of efficiency of the vindicare in the game in order to combat the ridiculous brokenness that is the current Character rule.

I can have a character standing in an open field with no allies within 30" of him, and an enemy unit can't shoot at him if I have a rhino sitting 6" behind them.

That is why you regularly see competitive lists where it's like "oh, 3 space marine captains with thunder hammers, we'll do that instead of having any kind of elite melee unit because being a character is infinitely better protection than being a fething tank."

The reason troop snipers need to be available in quantity is that it takes so fething much to ever even think about removing a character with them.

Lets say I take some rangers to counter my opponent's smashcaptain.

It takes 22 sniper rifle shots to the face to bring him down. and given that he can cross the board in a single turn and remove ~3x his points value in close combat if I let him get into my vehicles or elite units, I better make sure I've got that ready to go. If I take a couple lone dudes who need 4-5 turns to kill him, there's no point in bringing them at all.

As a Tyranid Nidzilla player I've never had an issue with snipers, but then again our Hive Tyrants have been 'sniped' out by every single las cannon and rocketlauncher (I've still not forgiven you 7th ed Grav!) for god knows how many editions so Im still used to my bugs being killed no matter what screens them.


Also tyranids not having snipers wouldn't be so bad IF our sniper equiv, which I believe are Mawlocs and Lictors weren't so laughably bad. Then again I would split up the Hive Fleet powers into two trees, troop support and debuffing/ Damaging powers and have units only pick from one or the other, except for Maelcepters, Swarmlord and Zoanthrope units above 6 models.

We dont need more snipers, what we need is snipers to be more dangerous. A sniper should be a real threat to any infantry. Like they should always wound infantry on 3 or 4+, and get at least AP-1. In addition to what they already have, targeting characters, and 1 MW on 6. I already opened a thread in proposed rules.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/769441.page

leopard wrote:
we have a local Dark Angels player who typically has 20-25 sniper scouts, you get used to not bothering with 'critical' characters.

personally it needs limiting in some way, or characters need a decent further points drop.

main issue though being how some armies can be basically "all sniper" while others have zero access to them

Well. How many snipers ignore LOS?

tneva82 wrote:


Well. How many snipers ignore LOS?

The new primaris ones do and are more accurate when they do so

 WisdomLS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Well. How many snipers ignore LOS?

The new primaris ones do and are more accurate when they do so

Mind you, it's with an inferior firing mode that does not gain a MW on 6 to wound
But it is a nice alternative for units hiding behind LOS blocking terrain

-

Snipers only bug me because not everyone has access to such a mechanic.
Only way an ork can "snipe" is a well placed dakkajet (depends on target player not full bubblewrapping his characters) or burn our warlord trait for it, which is a joke and a half....

Well, I play DG and Custodes, so I'm not worried at all.
I've played against 30+ scout snipers with both DG and Custodes and the snipers did basically nothing. Just a mortal wound here or there.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snipers only bug me because not everyone has access to such a mechanic.
Only way an ork can "snipe" is a well placed dakkajet (depends on target player not full bubblewrapping his characters) or burn our warlord trait for it, which is a joke and a half....

I think GW is trying to rectify that situation though. GSC got the Sanctus. Marines got the Eliminators. It seems like they are trying to add options for dealing with characters to most armies. Hopefully the new additions to the Chaos Space Marines army open up options for dealing with characters. We will see.

GSC have the Sanctus, Jackal Alpha and Kelermorph that can pop characters with multiwound guns. Plus allied guardsmen for ratlings and sniper guardsmen. Tyranids don’t have snipers per se but Biovores can fire off mines that will go right for characters if they aren’t taken care of.

 Galef wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Well. How many snipers ignore LOS?

The new primaris ones do and are more accurate when they do so

Mind you, it's with an inferior firing mode that does not gain a MW on 6 to wound
But it is a nice alternative for units hiding behind LOS blocking terrain

A 1+ to hit, no LoS sniper should just not exist, no matter how bad the str or D is.
Its dumb

 Ordana wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Well. How many snipers ignore LOS?

The new primaris ones do and are more accurate when they do so

Mind you, it's with an inferior firing mode that does not gain a MW on 6 to wound
But it is a nice alternative for units hiding behind LOS blocking terrain

A 1+ to hit, no LoS sniper should just not exist, no matter how bad the str or D is.
Its dumb

Neither should sniper weapons mounted on superheavies.

And yet, here we are.

At the very least the Oathbreaker Guidance System is a strat, so it's once per turn.

Not to say it's GOOD, but it's at least limited.

Played my first game with the new vindicare today, it was a dread heavy salamander list using the strat to add him in, I had a squad of scout snipers to back him up as well.
Played against a drukarii list, homoculous, urien, two squads of grot, three talos, rangers, guardian Bob and eldrad and a warlock on bike. ITC mission 6.

He got first turn, his eldrad and the warlock moved up and hid, he took out my scouts. Vindicare put two wounds on the hom and urien.
Turn two the cindy killed the hom and warlock.
Turn three he killed urien and wounded eldrad.
After that eldrad hid and the vindicate killed a ranger a turn.

Overall I was very impressed, my opponent thought his covern characters would have held up a little better but using a command point on key rolls makes the vindy pretty reliable to put a couple of wounds on a turn at least, adds up fast.

We had a good amount of LOS blocking but he had to move up to keep his units in aura range and psykic range putting them at risk as I had a nice high perch for the vindy.

Will certainly be using again.

And now Bodyguard units have a reason to exist again.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And now Bodyguard units have a reason to exist again.

Only the cheap ones.