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At the OP the cults have 2 fast attack. Bikes and Hellions. Other than that you are spot on.

We do have a few options for list building. There are a few more options than you suggest. But you are right we are very much constrained.

I also find our charcters better in close combat than you give the credit for. Obsidian rose Archon with the -1 to hit in CC armor does work. Give him a CC warlord trait and he is even tougher, I am running mine with the one that lets him heal when he kills a model.
Blood glave succubus is good.
Heamy with the electro whip is good. Blast pistol s are great in CC.

But they do lack toughness and the ablity to really dish it out. But for 50 points I won't complain too much on the Succubus. Provided she has an artifact or a warlord trait.

I don't even care if they get tougher, I just want to put my Succubus on a jet bike.

I also find our charcters better in close combat than you give the credit for. Obsidian rose Archon with the -1 to hit in CC armor does work. Give him a CC warlord trait and he is even tougher, I am running mine with the one that lets him heal when he kills a model.
Blood glave succubus is good.
Heamy with the electro whip is good. Blast pistol s are great in CC.

You know, that's my big problem with our HQ's.
They seem purpose built and priced to have a relic and Warlord Trait.

An Archon with a Djin Blade and Hatred Eternal is a great melee beatstick.

A Writ of the Living Muse Archon is the best support unit in the Codex.

A Succubus with the Blood Glaive and Hyper Swift Reflexes is cheap, deadly, and durable.

A Haemonculus with an EC whip, Vexator Mask and Master Nemesine is one of the best CQC characters we have.

As a design choice, all of these are perfectly fine, at least in a vacuum. It makes sense that the leader of a raiding force should be decked out in their most valuable artifacts of torture.

The problems arise when you've used your relics and warlord traits on one, maybe two HQs, and you still have three other expensive and useless beatsticks you need to fit in.

I use it on 3, but point taken. I mean what else am I going to spend my CP on?

It is a strange situation with DE. They are competitive but ultimately boring.

GW doesn't seem to know what to do with the army.

Here's my personal wish list.

-Bring back all the missing characters.

-Add wings, jet bikes, and skyboards to the wargear options for all HQ's

-Close combat weapons should be made deadlier...a lot deadlier. They should be the ultimate glass cannon in shooting and melee

-New HQ's like a Drachon. Master Incubi. Dark Eldar Assassin

-New models for Trueborn. Come standard with Ghost Plate and Shard Carbines. Full customizable options for the whole unit.

-New models for Blood Brides. Full options for the whole unit. Can pick their combat drugs or roll for 2 drugs and use both.

-New models for Grotesques. More combat options. There's lots of strange weapon options for the Coven lists that seem redundant.

-Increase the transport capacity for Raiders and Venoms to 12 and 6. It drives me absolutely insane that I can't take an HQ in a transport with a fully equipped unit. Just the ultimate case of stupidity and oversight.

-Increase Incubi base strength to 4 and give the entire unit additional attacks on a successful wound roll of 6.

-find a purpose for the Cronos

-Incubi on skyboards

-incubi on jetbikes

-Incubi Chariot

-Hellion Chariot

-Incubi Samurai version of Wraith Knight for Lord of War choice.

Headlss wrote:
I use it on 3, but point taken. I mean what else am I going to spend my CP on?

Im always CP starved with Aeldari...

Headlss wrote:
At the OP the cults have 2 fast attack. Bikes and Hellions. Other than that you are spot on.

We do have a few options for list building. There are a few more options than you suggest. But you are right we are very much constrained.

I also find our charcters better in close combat than you give the credit for. Obsidian rose Archon with the -1 to hit in CC armor does work. Give him a CC warlord trait and he is even tougher, I am running mine with the one that lets him heal when he kills a model.
Blood glave succubus is good.
Heamy with the electro whip is good. Blast pistol s are great in CC.

But they do lack toughness and the ablity to really dish it out. But for 50 points I won't complain too much on the Succubus. Provided she has an artifact or a warlord trait.

I don't even care if they get tougher, I just want to put my Succubus on a jet bike.

Thanks. How could I forget the mighty Hellions? My complaint with the HQs is that they suck without a relic + WL trait.

Sadly the other relics are more important as well, Vex mask, Helm of Spite, Writ of Living Muse, etc...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Sadly the other relics are more important as well, Vex mask, Helm of Spite, Writ of Living Muse, etc...

Totally agree with this, it's hard to justify a combat relic when the utility ones are so good.

Drager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Sadly the other relics are more important as well, Vex mask, Helm of Spite, Writ of Living Muse, etc...

Totally agree with this, it's hard to justify a combat relic when the utility ones are so good.

vex mask is definitely a combat relic though surely...?

the_scotsman wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Sadly the other relics are more important as well, Vex mask, Helm of Spite, Writ of Living Muse, etc...

Totally agree with this, it's hard to justify a combat relic when the utility ones are so good.

vex mask is definitely a combat relic though surely...?

Pretty sure they meant an actual relic weapon, vex is more of a supporting relic for combat, its main goal is to keep whatever you have fighting alive.

Drager wrote:
Thanks. How could I forget the mighty Hellions? My complaint with the HQs is that they suck without a relic + WL trait.

As I said though - I don't think this is right.

Lets take an Archon. With a basic husk blade you are hitting on 2s rerolling, S4 (a bit meh), AP-2 D3 damage.
He only has T3 and 5+, but he does have a 2++ that lasts until after the round you fail your first save in, and he has a 6+++ cos DE. Rerolling charges by turn 2.

Will he solo a squad of Marines? No. Will he solo Daemon Princes or other characters who cost 2.5 times as much? No.
Will he handle himself respectably against other characters in this bracket? Yeah I think so. Certainly for 74 points. You can also give him a blaster (index) or blast pistol to take advantage of a 2+/rerolling 1s, S8, AP-4 D6 damage gun. Which is a menace to anything but chaff. (6" is a bit of liability, but with movement 8" thats not the worst threat range in the world.)

Succubi is in the same boat. If you drop the Agonizer (unless you are going after monsters its probably a good trade off) you are just 50 points.
Again, WS/BS2+, rerolling 1s in the fight phase. Minus 1 to hit with the glaive in the first 2 turns is annoying, but its gone by turn 3. S5, AP-3, D1. 4 A is a bit lame, but can be upped through drugs. (Admittedly I'd prioritise putting +1A on a blobs of Wyches, but if you were to dedicate to Wych cult you can easily hit 6 squads and be picking +1 attack everything). Defensively you have T3, 4++, 6+++. You can also grab a blast pistol for a shooting threat (there are issues, don't want to oversell it, but it beats what a lot of characters can take.)

The D1 is the problem. I think given the -1 to hit and low number of base attacks the glaive should be D2. Yes you can take an impaler, but the low strength and AP make this a stupid choice.

Even so, 50 points. Not sure what you can expect. I know there are people who would prefer her to be say 100 or whatever points and have more attacks while the Blood Glaive profile be standard, but eh.

I can also understand the approach of "look, if its not a daemon prince/custodes biker captain, or a smash captain, I'd rather just take some naked Lhaemeans as my HQs - they might do nothing, but at least its only 15 points of nothing".
But this feels like a first world problem. There are a lot of books with characters in this price bracket who are not meta defining.

Your shadow field fails straight away. It doesn't last until end of phase anymore.

Drager wrote:
Your shadow field fails straight away. It doesn't last until end of phase anymore.

Yes, sorry I got that wrong.

The Shadowfield is really what kills the Archon as a combat character for me. 2++ sounds good, and if you're rolling a hot streak with your dice it can be infuriating for your opponent, but as soon as you roll a 1 the Archon's dead meat.

T3 and a 5+ save is terribly fragile for a character that wants to be getting into melee, especially if they're your Warlord.

 onlyroad wrote:
My biggest concern with the DE codex is how..bland list building feels.

The 7th Edition Codex, despite being a trash fire, had far far more opportunities for unique builds. Do you want an Archon to Webway Portal in with his pack of personal wardogs? Go ahead. Do you have a Succubi who needs a Cronos to accompany her everywhere so she can remain at the peak of outward perfection? Go ahead.

Now with the split, it just feels like I'm piecing together a list from a set of six pre-made detachments. Kabal Battalion, Ravager Spearhead, and whatever flavor I feel like tacking onto the end.

So many units have caveats attached to them, like the Court and Beasts, that limit an already limited selection of the Codex. You can't take just one or two units of something you like, you have to grab a variety of units from other factions to slot them into its own detachment.

I'm winning games and having fun, sure, but it definitely feels like everyone else gets to play with Lego while I'm stuck with Jumbo Mega Bloks.

Options aren't helping marines. At all. None of our legos fit together.

Martel732 wrote:

 onlyroad wrote:
My biggest concern with the DE codex is how..bland list building feels.

The 7th Edition Codex, despite being a trash fire, had far far more opportunities for unique builds. Do you want an Archon to Webway Portal in with his pack of personal wardogs? Go ahead. Do you have a Succubi who needs a Cronos to accompany her everywhere so she can remain at the peak of outward perfection? Go ahead.

Now with the split, it just feels like I'm piecing together a list from a set of six pre-made detachments. Kabal Battalion, Ravager Spearhead, and whatever flavor I feel like tacking onto the end.

So many units have caveats attached to them, like the Court and Beasts, that limit an already limited selection of the Codex. You can't take just one or two units of something you like, you have to grab a variety of units from other factions to slot them into its own detachment.

I'm winning games and having fun, sure, but it definitely feels like everyone else gets to play with Lego while I'm stuck with Jumbo Mega Bloks.

Options aren't helping marines. At all. None of our legos fit together.

Cool. Let's make the predator good and delete all your other tanks. And make it so landspeeders and preds break Chapter tactics. And you don't get the other tanks back when a meta shift makes preds bad. You in?

This really isn't the place to whine about imperial factions. All the other threads are for that.

 Burnage wrote:
The Shadowfield is really what kills the Archon as a combat character for me. 2++ sounds good, and if you're rolling a hot streak with your dice it can be infuriating for your opponent, but as soon as you roll a 1 the Archon's dead meat.

T3 and a 5+ save is terribly fragile for a character that wants to be getting into melee, especially if they're your Warlord.

Thats why I like The Armour of Misery, I take the Kabal of the Obsidian Rose any way for the extra 6" range on my blasters. I take bolter shots on the 3 up armor save, and anything multi damage on the shadow field. If I don't roll the invul I can't fail it. I also take Soul Thirst as my warlord trait, so he can heal the little bits of damage that inevitably get through the armor save.

But the scond Archon. You are exactly rigjt on. I give him a blaster and let him babysit a squad or two of warriors on foot, with maxed out blasters and a dark lance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the guy complaining about Marines. You are right aswell parts of that Codex and especially the new shadowspear units explicitly forbid useful and interesting combinations and synergies.

We are lucky that we have 3 codex's in one. Look at the poor Harliquins we have 3 times the book they do.

Martel732 wrote:

 onlyroad wrote:
My biggest concern with the DE codex is how..bland list building feels.

The 7th Edition Codex, despite being a trash fire, had far far more opportunities for unique builds. Do you want an Archon to Webway Portal in with his pack of personal wardogs? Go ahead. Do you have a Succubi who needs a Cronos to accompany her everywhere so she can remain at the peak of outward perfection? Go ahead.

Now with the split, it just feels like I'm piecing together a list from a set of six pre-made detachments. Kabal Battalion, Ravager Spearhead, and whatever flavor I feel like tacking onto the end.

So many units have caveats attached to them, like the Court and Beasts, that limit an already limited selection of the Codex. You can't take just one or two units of something you like, you have to grab a variety of units from other factions to slot them into its own detachment.

I'm winning games and having fun, sure, but it definitely feels like everyone else gets to play with Lego while I'm stuck with Jumbo Mega Bloks.

Options aren't helping marines. At all. None of our legos fit together.

Yep. Marines don't jive with some of the fundamental mechanics of 8th, have been left behind due to codex creep, and have been forced into a meta purpose built to kill them. What else is new?

I'm talking less about how effective the army is --- let's not beat around the bush here, Dark Eldar are an S Tier faction --- but rather how fun it is to collect and play. The 7th edition codex sucked. It sucked bad. But it had more in it that helped build a sense of your dudes.

In 8th? It feels like my detachments have been pre-written in a lot of ways, and the army has been structured to actively prohibit you from sticking to the fluff.

Do you want to take a page from Path of the Dark Eldar and play a raiding force under the command of the eccentric avian enthusiast Maximilian? You know, have a crap ton of Razorwing Flocks accompany the party into battle in some twisted parade and contest? Can't do that now. Now you've got to buy a succubus and a squad of wyches, and a beastmaster to get your Flocks. Flocks with no obsessions, and no battlefield slot.

Do you want some Reaver Jetbikes in your Flayed Skull army? You know, the one where the Archon in charge was literally a Reaver Champion? Hope you like Red Grief, because that's the closest you'll get to having them actually be Flayed Skull.

That's what I'm talking about. Say what you will about the Marine Codex, and I'll probably agree with most of your gripes about their power, but they are unparalleled in their ability to feel exactly like your dudes. And no matter how many games I win, or models I kill, or what have you, will I get that same degree of flexibility and uniqueness with Dark Eldar.

No, but BA in particular have been so deviant from their fluff in terms of capability for so long it no longer matters what their fluff is. GW has broken any hope of suspension of disbelief. There is only disbelief remaining.

Drukhari are at least glass half full. Even if it gets monotonous. Like pentaflyrant from 7th.

Honestly, I don't know why GW makes so MANY marine kits and then makes them all suck in the game. There are other models that badly need updates and what does the game get? More marines that don't work on the table.

More and more, I'm thinking the game would be better if marines were squatted. Which will obviously never happen, but they've created a giant NPC race that are supposed to be setting focus? It's just bad and kinda miserable to act out on the table. Marines aren't adding anything to the game. Just to the Black Library.

Worst part is that conceptually I love Drukhari. It's just really unfortunate that dissy cannons cause a lot of sour grapes, especially for marines.

Whilst I generally find DE to be very confusing and somewhat beyond my ability to really understand how a list is put together, I can understand the frustration.

It's a bit like mini versions of formations from 7th. Sure they make you strong, but also cookie cutter and bland. And you end up paying quite a lot of points for things you don't want, and not taking things you do.

Cynista wrote:
Whilst I generally find DE to be very confusing and somewhat beyond my ability to really understand how a list is put together, I can understand the frustration.

It's a bit like mini versions of formations from 7th. Sure they make you strong, but also cookie cutter and bland. And you end up paying quite a lot of points for things you don't want, and not taking things you do.

It's also compounding another issue that the Dark Eldar have - just how cut down the army has gotten. In 5th edition there were 42 units in the Codex, in 8th edition there were only 30 (although most of that, admittedly, is from Harlequins getting spun off into their own Codex and special characters getting removed).

Add in the army getting split into three and they really don't have a deep unit pool to build lists from.

 Burnage wrote:

Cynista wrote:
Whilst I generally find DE to be very confusing and somewhat beyond my ability to really understand how a list is put together, I can understand the frustration.

It's a bit like mini versions of formations from 7th. Sure they make you strong, but also cookie cutter and bland. And you end up paying quite a lot of points for things you don't want, and not taking things you do.

It's also compounding another issue that the Dark Eldar have - just how cut down the army has gotten. In 5th edition there were 42 units in the Codex, in 8th edition there were only 30 (although most of that, admittedly, is from Harlequins getting spun off into their own Codex and special characters getting removed).

Add in the army getting split into three and they really don't have a deep unit pool to build lists from.

I think this is really the crux of the issue. The split in obsessions is cool, but being forced to take a bazzilion HQs which must be duplicated really kills it. I'm happy to take an Archon a Haemonculus and a Succubus, but I'd rather do that in a Brigade or Battalion. There is also the fact that rule of 3 combined with some design choices have led to some things being nigh unplayable (Court of the Archon; I'm looking at you) and other things being close to mandatory (Ravagers).

Martel732 wrote:
No, but BA in particular have been so deviant from their fluff in terms of capability for so long it no longer matters what their fluff is. GW has broken any hope of suspension of disbelief. There is only disbelief remaining.

Drukhari are at least glass half full. Even if it gets monotonous. Like pentaflyrant from 7th.

Honestly, I don't know why GW makes so MANY marine kits and then makes them all suck in the game. There are other models that badly need updates and what does the game get? More marines that don't work on the table.

More and more, I'm thinking the game would be better if marines were squatted. Which will obviously never happen, but they've created a giant NPC race that are supposed to be setting focus? It's just bad and kinda miserable to act out on the table. Marines aren't adding anything to the game. Just to the Black Library.

Worst part is that conceptually I love Drukhari. It's just really unfortunate that dissy cannons cause a lot of sour grapes, especially for marines.

I think the thing I really can't wrap my head around is exactly what you said: They just KEEP shoveling out marine releases, and they just KEEP being total useless garbage.

Honestly though, if you like Drukhari, have you considered stepping away from marines for a while to give them a try? Honestly they're among the most fun armies for someone who enjoys technical play to pick up, really fun to paint, have gorgeous kits that for the most part are still in fifth edition prices..

You always just seem so unhappy, man. There's no reason you have to spam dissie cannons and feel like you're betraying your marines, wych cult and coven armies are a thing too.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, but BA in particular have been so deviant from their fluff in terms of capability for so long it no longer matters what their fluff is. GW has broken any hope of suspension of disbelief. There is only disbelief remaining.

Drukhari are at least glass half full. Even if it gets monotonous. Like pentaflyrant from 7th.

Honestly, I don't know why GW makes so MANY marine kits and then makes them all suck in the game. There are other models that badly need updates and what does the game get? More marines that don't work on the table.

More and more, I'm thinking the game would be better if marines were squatted. Which will obviously never happen, but they've created a giant NPC race that are supposed to be setting focus? It's just bad and kinda miserable to act out on the table. Marines aren't adding anything to the game. Just to the Black Library.

Worst part is that conceptually I love Drukhari. It's just really unfortunate that dissy cannons cause a lot of sour grapes, especially for marines.

I think the thing I really can't wrap my head around is exactly what you said: They just KEEP shoveling out marine releases, and they just KEEP being total useless garbage.

Honestly though, if you like Drukhari, have you considered stepping away from marines for a while to give them a try? Honestly they're among the most fun armies for someone who enjoys technical play to pick up, really fun to paint, have gorgeous kits that for the most part are still in fifth edition prices..

You always just seem so unhappy, man. There's no reason you have to spam dissie cannons and feel like you're betraying your marines, wych cult and coven armies are a thing too.

I second this, I mean I know I made this thread to bitch, but I still love the army more than any other and highly recommend it!

Yeah. Dark elfs are good, no question. And there are several ways to play. You don't have to take dissy ravagers. I don't have any flyer, no ravangers and no dissy cannons, I don't run vec or writ of the living muse. I still have a fun list that wins.

But a lot of the fine detail we miss out on. With only a troop choice, a heavy and an HQ in a kabal there just aren't many ways to play them.

And we're starved for HQs. We have 3 each locked to a specific faction which means a specific build. You can put a marine captain, in Termy armor, on a bike, or give him a jump pack. Storm shields, melta, T hammer, claws, power sword... Same with libarian, etc. Options and sub options.

I happen to like 3 of the 5 ways to build a detachment so I am quite happy. Just let me put my Succubus on a jet bike and I'm golden.

Headlss wrote:
Yeah. Dark elfs are good, no question. And there are several ways to play. You don't have to take dissy ravagers. I don't have any flyer, no ravangers and no dissy cannons, I don't run vec or writ of the living muse. I still have a fun list that wins.

But a lot of the fine detail we miss out on. With only a troop choice, a heavy and an HQ in a kabal there just aren't many ways to play them.

And we're starved for HQs. We have 3 each locked to a specific faction which means a specific build. You can put a marine captain, in Termy armor, on a bike, or give him a jump pack. Storm shields, melta, T hammer, claws, power sword... Same with libarian, etc. Options and sub options.

I happen to like 3 of the 5 ways to build a detachment so I am quite happy. Just let me put my Succubus on a jet bike and I'm golden.

The "thing on a fast thing!" gets brought up really often and I just...I don't know. For so long it's just been the default, always 100% better option that I don't think it brings any additional diversity at all, especially now that so many characters auras are so important.

Would being able to slap jetbikes or "movement enhancing wings" on all my HQs make my army better? Yes. Will it make it more diverse? I mean you tell me man, but I know the second I got a mobility option on any of my DE HQs, I'd go from having 3x footslogging HQs to 3x of their mobility enhanced equivalents, really fast. Much like the only reason any character is ever not taken with a mobility option is if they don't have one, or people are afraid of index options going away so they choose not to use them.

I'd much rather just have a different HQ for each of the three unit types. Some kind of battlefield transmogrifier would be cool for covens, allowing you to do things like change around the stats of coven units, like increasing strength and damage but reducing weapon skill, or increasing speed but reducing toughness. A dedicated character hunter representing a younger, fame-hungry and selfish succubus would be great for cults. Maybe a spymaster with sniper weapons and deep strike for Kabals.

"give me a mobility option" has always just seemed like a kind of selfish complaint, in that you're just asking that they be flatly buffed. I can't think of a time when mobility didn't automatically make the unit better if it was available. Also in the case of the succubus you'd be adding like 4" to her movement, since she currently can just take movement drugs and go 10" anyway. If we're talking about the first real model release drukhari get since fifth edition, I'd have a whole lot of stuff higher up on my list than jetbike HQs.

"Thing on a fast thing" gets brought up so often because the entire point of Dark Eldar is being fast as hell, yet their HQs have no mobility outside of jumping into transports. Like, if I'm playing Flayed Skull, everything in my army will be moving a minimum of 17"... except for the HQs, which are stuck on foot and moving at less than half that speed.

It feels awkward and previous Codexes had bikes and skyboards as wargear options. It would be a buff, but it's not an outrageous one and would get the army playing in a smoother way.

Well, the situation with the HQs is an issue.
They are neither very killy nor very fast.
I guess that GW doesn't want to produce an Archon on a skyboard or a jetbike.
So they are on foot and not very attractive game-wise.
As said, babysitting Ravagers shouldn't be a task for an Archon.
But GW take more care about Marines and their apostate counterparts as to Xenos races these days.

Marines get everything GW can give them except good rules.

Space Elves get nothing GW can give them except good rules.

No wonder they're at war.

I just miss being and to use my jetbike HQ models