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BaconCatBug wrote: The issue is that GW is not a competent rules writer. Having "Feel No Pain" works fine until GW decide they want Graia to have a special snowflake version of Feel No Pain, and then we end up with the same exact rules bloat as we had before.
It's not black and white though. Having better versions of an USR is fine as long as you limit that behavior. Having a better version of FNP for one army or a single character/elite unit is fine. Having various better versions scattered across multiple rank and file units is not.
Some of those issues are ameliorated by utilizing variables. FNP is especially easy- Feel No Pain X. Leading to FNP 4+ or FNP 5+ or FNP 6+, or even FNP 3+ or 2+. GW gets so obsessive about making units "unique" and/or "fluffy" that they lose sight of clear communication and good gameplay.
That's not what he meant. He was referencing some AoS rule that gives one army a better version of FNP because it somehow interacts differently with their other rules. Someone who actually knows AoS might be better at explaining this.
A good example would be Disgustingly Resilient, Ramshackle and Quantum Shielding. All three reduce damage taken. DR ist just FNP 5+, Ramshackle reduces damage to 1 if you roll a 6+ and Quantum Shielding reduces damage to 0 if you roll under its damage value.
In the end, all reduce damage, but they do it differently. Or as BCB would say "Special Snowflake" versions of the same rule.
Right, but quantum shielding is a unique special rule, available only to necrons, to only handful of units.
USR (universal special rules) should be covering only those mechanics shared by multiple factions/units.
BaconCatBug wrote: The issue is that GW is not a competent rules writer. Having "Feel No Pain" works fine until GW decide they want Graia to have a special snowflake version of Feel No Pain, and then we end up with the same exact rules bloat as we had before.
It's not black and white though. Having better versions of an USR is fine as long as you limit that behavior. Having a better version of FNP for one army or a single character/elite unit is fine. Having various better versions scattered across multiple rank and file units is not.
Some of those issues are ameliorated by utilizing variables. FNP is especially easy- Feel No Pain X. Leading to FNP 4+ or FNP 5+ or FNP 6+, or even FNP 3+ or 2+. GW gets so obsessive about making units "unique" and/or "fluffy" that they lose sight of clear communication and good gameplay.
That's not what he meant. He was referencing some AoS rule that gives one army a better version of FNP because it somehow interacts differently with their other rules. Someone who actually knows AoS might be better at explaining this.
A good example would be Disgustingly Resilient, Ramshackle and Quantum Shielding. All three reduce damage taken. DR ist just FNP 5+, Ramshackle reduces damage to 1 if you roll a 6+ and Quantum Shielding reduces damage to 0 if you roll under its damage value. In the end, all reduce damage, but they do it differently. Or as BCB would say "Special Snowflake" versions of the same rule.
So in a system with USRs those three could be FNP(X+) (roll to save against each point of damage), Resilient(X+,Y) where if you roll an X+ the damage is reduced to Y, and Shielding(Characteristic) where you need to roll under the specified characteristic of an attack (could be damage, strength, etc) to reduce the damage to 0 (could also be Shielding(Characteristic, X) where it is reduced to X).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/29 15:01:25
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: So in a system with USRs those three could be FNP(X+) (roll to save against each point of damage), Resilient(X+,Y) where if you roll an X+ the damage is reduced to Y, and Shielding(Characteristic) where you need to roll under the specified characteristic of an attack (could be damage, strength, etc) to reduce the damage to 0 (could also be Shielding(Characteristic, X) where it is reduced to X).
Please, no. DR would just become FNP(5+), maybe ramshackle be streamlined to FNP 6+ because that's the same on average and Quantum Shielding would remain as is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/29 15:05:47
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Adding USR to the game doesn't mean all rules have to be covered by them, QUantum shielding and ramshackle could stay as they are with no problem.
Again, to compare it to MTG, theres
Prowess
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, this creature gets +1/+2 until end of turn
this is a USR thats often re-used
Then theres this card :
Monastery mentor
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, create a 1/1 monk with prowess
Then there is this card :
Adeliz, the cinder wind
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Wizards you control get +1/+1 until end of turn.
All three of these cards have similar rules but only 1 is formatted as an USR. The other ones are deliberatly not keyworded so you know at a glance that they aren't exactly prowess.
So to go back to 40k, while quantum shielding and ramshackle are both rules that cause a unit to ignore damage, they don't have to be mish mashed into the regular FNPUSR.
Andykp wrote: This page alone shows why it’s a bad idea to go back. And I’m very thankful that 40k isn’t like magic.
Nice argument there. Could you elaborate on how this page shows why its a bad idea? And why do you not want 40k to have as solid a ruleset as magic?
Because proper ruleset would not have game-breaking loopholes to exploit.
Now you're putting words in Andykp's mouth, and judging by what they've posted in this thread thus far, I'd wager Andykp's not one to go looking for loopholes to exploit.
That said, I think the above examples of how one rule could classify as a USR while two similar ones might stay unique to their respective units is actually a good explanation of how USRs would work well. The mechanics of the two 'snowflake' rules differ quite significantly from FNP despite pursuing a like intent. Using them would feel different during a game.
You also need to keep in mind that the rules themselves would be noted on the datasheets in all cases.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Andykp wrote: This page alone shows why it’s a bad idea to go back. And I’m very thankful that 40k isn’t like magic.
Nice argument there. Could you elaborate on how this page shows why its a bad idea? And why do you not want 40k to have as solid a ruleset as magic?
Because proper ruleset would not have game-breaking loopholes to exploit.
MtG has zero loopholes in its rules and has been that way for more than two decades.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
The only vehicles besides the gunwagon to have unique explosions are boomdakka snazzwagon, nauts and the burna bommer.
Even the stompa explosion is the regular explosion all the titanic models share.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
It is an issue when people don't have a language to explain their rules and have to read a paragraph aloud each time they have to explain an ability and when you have to read not just see which abilities a unit has, but read every single one of them in detail to actually understand what it does. You can invent different names for each of the modifiers in the rules for explosions if you hate having brackets in your rules name, normally what it comes down to is volatile or non-volatile fuel tanks (4+ or 6+), small, random or big size (3", D6", 6"), modest, ordinary or extraordinary damage (1, D3, D6MW). All of this information should be printed on the datasheet, just like you expect your abilities to be listed on the datasheet today and not halfway on the other side of the book away from all your options right with a collage in-between. Any units that don't fall into at least one of the categories above get their very own uniquely named rule or in the case of Imperial Knights, more likely one based on the class of Knight they are.
Here is what it might look like:
Spoiler:
Small Modest Explosion: Deffkilla Wartrike, Killa Kans.
Big Extraordinary Explosion: ‘Chinork’ Warkopta, Battlewagon, Bonebreaka, Battlewagon with Supa-kannon, Big Trakk, Kill Krusha, Dethrolla Battle Fortress.
Volatile Big Extraordinary Explosion: Gun Wagon.
Gorkanaut/Morkanaut/Stompa/Battle Fortress Explosion: Gorkanaut, Morkanaut, Stompa, Battle Fortress. (For the units that break conventions)
Kustom Stompa Explosion: Kustom Stompa.
That's Orks which have some of the most random rules for explosions, Necrons? I can't remember the rules for explosions, I don't have names to assign them in my head so I'm having to look up all these rules just like if I was playing a whole new faction. I was actually surprised by how big the explosion a Doomsday Ark has yesterday.
Spoiler:
Small Modest Explosion: Catacomb Command Barge, Annihilation Barge
Big Ordinary Explosion: Ghost Ark, Triarch Stalker, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe, Night Shroud, Doomsday Ark, Sentry Pylon,
Big Extraordinary Explosion: Monolith
Volatile Big Extraordinary Explosion: Gauss Pylon
Obelisk/Tesseract Vault/Seraptek Heavy Construct/Tomb Citadel Explosion: Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, Seraptek Heavy Construct, Tomb Citadel
You could also add double and triple modifiers and make a make a seperate Reactor Explosion rule if you wanted to flesh the system out fully, I do think being able to tell my opponents that all my non-Titanic units with 10-14 wounds all have Big Ordinary Explosions would be nice, even if I have to read the entire rule for Vaults, Obelisks, Constructs and Tomb Citadels. Even if Orks are all over the place, being able to ask whether you have any ways to auto-explode or whether you have any volatile explosions would also be nice. The Explodes rule is extra bad because it has the same language regardless of what the rule actually does. But something like Deep Strike is almost as bad, if the golden light coming out of your Custodes' butts does nothing it should not be in the description of what the unit does on the tabletop. The designers were free to add a blinding effect to it, but they chose to give Adeptus Custodes standard DS and call it something else for kicks. They can give custom names to every weapon, name and ability in the collectors edition, then your Space Marine vehicles can be armed with giant truck nuts or a fiery assault prow with S User AP- D1 and I'll just have one less weapon on my vehicles and use the basic close combat weapon profile every model is automatically armed with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 10:00:19
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
It would still be written on the datasheet if it was a USR and you can still have some fluff there if you want. I have no idea why the concept of FNP 5+ is complicated for anyone but somehow reading an entire paragraph of fluff text to get to the rules mechanic is fine. Same with the Explodes rule. You have three things every exploding thing needs to note - explode chance, radius and wounds. Why is noting those 3 things in a consistent format that speeds up the game bad? I don't buy the "it removes fluff" argument because there's still plenty of opportunity to add fluff to the datasheets if you want, and all that background info is in the Codex as well. It's demonstrably easier to parse and apply too. Furthermore, I don't think anyone had a problem with Death Guard having the Feel No Pain USR in previous editions being unfluffy so why is it suddenly different now?
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
It is an issue when people don't have a language to explain their rules and have to read a paragraph aloud each time they have to explain an ability and when you have to read not just see which abilities a unit has, but read every single one of them in detail to actually understand what it does. You can invent different names for each of the modifiers in the rules for explosions if you hate having brackets in your rules name, normally what it comes down to is volatile or non-volatile fuel tanks (4+ or 6+), small, random or big size (3", D6", 6"), modest, ordinary or extraordinary damage (1, D3, D6MW). All of this information should be printed on the datasheet, just like you expect your abilities to be listed on the datasheet today and not halfway on the other side of the book away from all your options right with a collage in-between. Any units that don't fall into at least one of the categories above get their very own uniquely named rule or in the case of Imperial Knights, more likely one based on the class of Knight they are.
Here is what it might look like:
Spoiler:
Small Modest Explosion: Deffkilla Wartrike, Killa Kans.
Big Extraordinary Explosion: ‘Chinork’ Warkopta, Battlewagon, Bonebreaka, Battlewagon with Supa-kannon, Big Trakk, Kill Krusha, Dethrolla Battle Fortress.
Volatile Big Extraordinary Explosion: Gun Wagon.
Gorkanaut/Morkanaut/Stompa/Battle Fortress Explosion: Gorkanaut, Morkanaut, Stompa, Battle Fortress. (For the units that break conventions)
Kustom Stompa Explosion: Kustom Stompa.
That's Orks which have some of the most random rules for explosions, Necrons? I can't remember the rules for explosions, I don't have names to assign them in my head so I'm having to look up all these rules just like if I was playing a whole new faction. I was actually surprised by how big the explosion a Doomsday Ark has yesterday.
Spoiler:
Small Modest Explosion: Catacomb Command Barge, Annihilation Barge
Big Ordinary Explosion: Ghost Ark, Triarch Stalker, Doom Scythe, Night Scythe, Night Shroud, Doomsday Ark, Sentry Pylon,
Big Extraordinary Explosion: Monolith
Volatile Big Extraordinary Explosion: Gauss Pylon
Obelisk/Tesseract Vault/Seraptek Heavy Construct/Tomb Citadel Explosion: Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, Seraptek Heavy Construct, Tomb Citadel
You could also add double and triple modifiers and make a make a seperate Reactor Explosion rule if you wanted to flesh the system out fully, I do think being able to tell my opponents that all my non-Titanic units with 10-14 wounds all have Big Ordinary Explosions would be nice, even if I have to read the entire rule for Vaults, Obelisks, Constructs and Tomb Citadels. Even if Orks are all over the place, being able to ask whether you have any ways to auto-explode or whether you have any volatile explosions would also be nice. The Explodes rule is extra bad because it has the same language regardless of what the rule actually does. But something like Deep Strike is almost as bad, if the golden light coming out of your Custodes' butts does nothing it should not be in the description of what the unit does on the tabletop. The designers were free to add a blinding effect to it, but they chose to give Adeptus Custodes standard DS and call it something else for kicks. They can give custom names to every weapon, name and ability in the collectors edition, then your Space Marine vehicles can be armed with giant truck nuts or a fiery assault prow with S User AP- D1 and I'll just have one less weapon on my vehicles and use the basic close combat weapon profile every model is automatically armed with.
Way to complicated.
Jidmah wrote: Did you know that the vast majority of vehicles across all codices uses the same four explosions? Always on a 6+, light vehicles get 1 MW at 3", dreads and medium vehicles have d3 MW at 3", tanks and planes get d3 MW at 6" and heavy battle tanks have d6 at 6". This is one of the few things consistent for Eldar, Orks, Marines and AM, so in general, ork vehicles blow up exactly as often and as hard as the vehicles of any of the other big factions.
Streamlining those four explosions into USR would not take away anything, the Burna Bommer would still get his non-USR insane fuel explosion and the stompa will have huge reactor explosion.
You can cover over 80% of all vehicles with just those four explosions. It's fine to give the other ones bespoke rules. "One size fits all" tends to fit no one.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: The only vehicles besides the gunwagon to have unique explosions are boomdakka snazzwagon, nauts and the burna bommer.
Even the stompa explosion is the regular explosion all the titanic models share.
Kans, deff dreads, battlewagon/bonebreaka, Gors/morkanaut, gunwagon, that’s 5 different explodes from the ORK heavy support. Different sizes and chance and actual damage.
I’m going round in circles here, at the need of the day it boils down to that I prefer it as is and you would prefer a change. It’s a matter of opinion. I think you’re trying fox something that isn’t broken but have said my piece and have nothing more to add. So I’ll leave you too it. Cheers for the chats.
Kanz have the same explosion as all light vehicles in the game.
Deff Dreads have the same explosion as all dreads in the game.
Battlwagons have the same explosion as all heavy tanks in the game.
All of them even appear on multiple datasheets in the ork codex! They are the very opposite of unique.
You not knowing that is proof by itself of how a coherent use of keywords would reduce complexity and increase understanding of the game rules.
Needing to read every single explodes rule in every vehicle datasheet is objectively worse than not needing to do that for the vast majority of vehicles, not a matter of taste.
Your opinion is that incoherent, hard to learn and memorize rules are superior to what professional game designers of highly successful games in all genres have established for almost twenty years now.
But there are people arguing that times were better when cars did not have seat belts and airbags, so I'll just stop here and leave you to your opinion.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
To reimplement USRs in 40k, there would need to be some streamlining and removal of redundant rules. With FNP N+, other rules that also reduce damage, like Quantum Shielding are unnecessary bloat. Think of mechanics as a finite resource. With a USR like FNP, or DS, is it worth using that finite resource on a rule that does the same thing, for a slightly different "feel?" Or would that resource be best used on an army-wide USR, or unit-unique rule, that adds more meaningful gameplay and interaction?
Plus, rules ike Quantum Shielding that are all-or-nothing are problematic by possessing such high variance. Imagine you play Necrons, and your Command Barge gets obliterated in one volley half of the time because you fail your QS roll. Not very fun, is it?
Explosions are pretty easy.
EXPLODES When this unit is destroyed, roll one D6. If the result is N or greater, all units within X" take AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
The bespoke rules method is flawed. It hinders communication between players, and learning/knowledge of one's army. Paradoxically, unique rules for everything makes it more difficult to make units stand out, because they are totally disconnected from the core rules. Special rules work best when only some units have them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 19:57:13
Consider rangers. Their rules could be:
"Appear Unbidden: This unit has <Deep Strike>"
Where Deep Strike is a USR.
Now, USRs that just point to other USRs are silly. But this method allows for the upsides of "bespoke rule" descriptions - such as Rangers appearing unbidden instead of just deep striking - while also getting the benefits of USRs.
Jidmah wrote: Kanz have the same explosion as all light vehicles in the game.
Deff Dreads have the same explosion as all dreads in the game.
Battlwagons have the same explosion as all heavy tanks in the game.
All of them even appear on multiple datasheets in the ork codex! They are the very opposite of unique.
You not knowing that is proof by itself of how a coherent use of keywords would reduce complexity and increase understanding of the game rules.
Needing to read every single explodes rule in every vehicle datasheet is objectively worse than not needing to do that for the vast majority of vehicles, not a matter of taste.
Your opinion is that incoherent, hard to learn and memorize rules are superior to what professional game designers of highly successful games in all genres have established for almost twenty years now.
But there are people arguing that times were better when cars did not have seat belts and airbags, so I'll just stop here and leave you to your opinion.
If you’re going to be rude I will have to come back. I was happy to leave it as opinions but you insist that your opinion is objective fact. Things being easier or more difficult to remember is subjective. The way people prefer games to work is subjective, that’s why some people enjoy 40k others enjoy chess.
Magic the gathering is this holy grail of keywords and USRs according to you and others on here. In does not appeal to me at all and never has. Where as I’m sure it appeals to many simply due to the elegance and the precise nature of its game design.
As for the ORKS I was talking about variety with in the codex. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. Have a USR for explodes dreadnought or explodes heavy vehicles is the system we have now. U just have to read the entry. I struggle to remember the USRs and like looking them up.
Quantum shielding, I enjoy that roll, it is a bit all or nothing but that adds to the drama and the frustration on my opponents part too. I play necrons and you could switch reanimating to a fell no pain. But it wouldn’t be as characterful. Same with quantum shielding. The way it is now necrons feel resilient and relentless, they just keep coming. And they feel unique. Diferent from other armies. Alien.
I’m off again now, forgotten just how arrogant jidmah comes across as in here.
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
To reimplement USRs in 40k, there would need to be some streamlining and removal of redundant rules. With FNP N+, other rules that also reduce damage, like Quantum Shielding are unnecessary bloat. Think of mechanics as a finite resource. With a USR like FNP, or DS, is it worth using that finite resource on a rule that does the same thing, for a slightly different "feel?" Or would that resource be best used on an army-wide USR, or unit-unique rule, that adds more meaningful gameplay and interaction?
Plus, rules ike Quantum Shielding that are all-or-nothing are problematic by possessing such high variance. Imagine you play Necrons, and your Command Barge gets obliterated in one volley half of the time because you fail your QS roll. Not very fun, is it?
Explosions are pretty easy.
EXPLODES When this unit is destroyed, roll one D6. If the result is N or greater, all units within X" take AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
The bespoke rules method is flawed. It hinders communication between players, and learning/knowledge of one's army. Paradoxically, unique rules for everything makes it more difficult to make units stand out, because they are totally disconnected from the core rules. Special rules work best when only some units have them.
Yeah no, Quantum Shielding is different enough from FNP.
Can we at least agree that USRs (along with perhaps bespoke rules that can modify how a USR works for that unit) would be great in theory but GW are incapable of delivering on it?
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
To reimplement USRs in 40k, there would need to be some streamlining and removal of redundant rules. With FNP N+, other rules that also reduce damage, like Quantum Shielding are unnecessary bloat. Think of mechanics as a finite resource. With a USR like FNP, or DS, is it worth using that finite resource on a rule that does the same thing, for a slightly different "feel?" Or would that resource be best used on an army-wide USR, or unit-unique rule, that adds more meaningful gameplay and interaction?
Plus, rules ike Quantum Shielding that are all-or-nothing are problematic by possessing such high variance. Imagine you play Necrons, and your Command Barge gets obliterated in one volley half of the time because you fail your QS roll. Not very fun, is it?
Explosions are pretty easy.
EXPLODES When this unit is destroyed, roll one D6. If the result is N or greater, all units within X" take AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
The bespoke rules method is flawed. It hinders communication between players, and learning/knowledge of one's army. Paradoxically, unique rules for everything makes it more difficult to make units stand out, because they are totally disconnected from the core rules. Special rules work best when only some units have them.
Yeah no, Quantum Shielding is different enough from FNP.
It really isn't. Both function as an extra layer of wound reduction on top of armor saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote: Can we at least agree that USRs (along with perhaps bespoke rules that can modify how a USR works for that unit) would be great in theory but GW are incapable of delivering on it?
We could, but then we may as well cease discussing the rules of GW games permanently. I don't think that's constructive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 21:44:49
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
To reimplement USRs in 40k, there would need to be some streamlining and removal of redundant rules. With FNP N+, other rules that also reduce damage, like Quantum Shielding are unnecessary bloat. Think of mechanics as a finite resource. With a USR like FNP, or DS, is it worth using that finite resource on a rule that does the same thing, for a slightly different "feel?" Or would that resource be best used on an army-wide USR, or unit-unique rule, that adds more meaningful gameplay and interaction?
Plus, rules ike Quantum Shielding that are all-or-nothing are problematic by possessing such high variance. Imagine you play Necrons, and your Command Barge gets obliterated in one volley half of the time because you fail your QS roll. Not very fun, is it?
Explosions are pretty easy.
EXPLODES When this unit is destroyed, roll one D6. If the result is N or greater, all units within X" take AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
The bespoke rules method is flawed. It hinders communication between players, and learning/knowledge of one's army. Paradoxically, unique rules for everything makes it more difficult to make units stand out, because they are totally disconnected from the core rules. Special rules work best when only some units have them.
Yeah no, Quantum Shielding is different enough from FNP.
It really isn't. Both function as an extra layer of wound reduction on top of armor saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote: Can we at least agree that USRs (along with perhaps bespoke rules that can modify how a USR works for that unit) would be great in theory but GW are incapable of delivering on it?
We could, but then we may as well cease discussing the rules of GW games permanently. I don't think that's constructive.
Except that FNP in statistical terms averages to a fixed percentage reduction of wounds while Quantum shielding is a variable reduction of wounds based on the Damage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 21:53:45
Andykp wrote: The posts above had no end of acronyms, abbreviation and then discussion about removing unique rules to make things fit with USRs. It was a head ache to read and is an example of what will happen if USR come back in.
And yes you are correct! I am not into loopholes.
Feel No pain 4+, Feel No Pain 5+ etc. is too complicated? Really?
No but FNPx+/y and the like is. Then DR becomes FNP and quantum shielding needs to change to represent this that and the other. That’s just one rule. How about explodes, is that going to be EXPLODES 6+/6”/D6. Or 4+/9”/D6. Or what ever. Flicking through the ORK codex alone and every heavy support has a unique explodes. I like that. It makes sense. A kan exploding is less than a dread. A gun wagon is full of ammo so will blow up on a 4+ but a bonebreaka on a 6+. It’s a little bit of flavour but as it’s written in the data sheet it’s causes no issues.
To reimplement USRs in 40k, there would need to be some streamlining and removal of redundant rules. With FNP N+, other rules that also reduce damage, like Quantum Shielding are unnecessary bloat. Think of mechanics as a finite resource. With a USR like FNP, or DS, is it worth using that finite resource on a rule that does the same thing, for a slightly different "feel?" Or would that resource be best used on an army-wide USR, or unit-unique rule, that adds more meaningful gameplay and interaction?
Plus, rules ike Quantum Shielding that are all-or-nothing are problematic by possessing such high variance. Imagine you play Necrons, and your Command Barge gets obliterated in one volley half of the time because you fail your QS roll. Not very fun, is it?
Explosions are pretty easy.
EXPLODES When this unit is destroyed, roll one D6. If the result is N or greater, all units within X" take AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
The bespoke rules method is flawed. It hinders communication between players, and learning/knowledge of one's army. Paradoxically, unique rules for everything makes it more difficult to make units stand out, because they are totally disconnected from the core rules. Special rules work best when only some units have them.
Yeah no, Quantum Shielding is different enough from FNP.
It really isn't. Both function as an extra layer of wound reduction on top of armor saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote: Can we at least agree that USRs (along with perhaps bespoke rules that can modify how a USR works for that unit) would be great in theory but GW are incapable of delivering on it?
We could, but then we may as well cease discussing the rules of GW games permanently. I don't think that's constructive.
Except that FNP in statistical terms averages to a fixed percentage reduction of wounds while Quantum shielding is a variable reduction of wounds based on the Damage.
Yes, the math differs, but the intention and application of the two is the same. Roll to avoid damage. One of the things about GW design I find so irritating is that much of their rules mechanics relies solely on tinkering with the probability of something, not creating more choices for players to make.
Let's not keep unnecessary, or even outright bad mechanics just because they are familiar and comfortable.
