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The biggest disservice that 8th Edition did to transports is to remove their fire points. Being able to fire your squad's special/heavy weapon out of your transport makes a HUGE difference in the "Is it worth taking?" factor, especially for shooty armies that use their transports for protection rather than as party buses to melee combat. Who even uses Chimeras and Tauroxes anymore?

Fire points were likely removed in line with the "Units in transports aren't really considered to be on the table" principle. Yet open-topped transports set a precedent for units in transports still being sort of on the table for some purposes. So they really should bring back fire points. Maybe not as a datasheet-by-datasheet thing (which would require a massive FAQ), but as a blanket rule for transports: "Up to two models of an embarked unit may shoot from inside their transport at their own Ballistic Skill. If the transport has moved in the preceding Movement phase, the embarked unit is treated as having moved."

(Not sure about other details, such as overwatch. Maybe keep it consistent with open-topped transports and say that embarked units can't fire overwatch.)

.

I feel like making it a blanket rule is asking for trouble.

In principle, though, I don't think it's a bad idea.

Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Karol wrote:
Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Why? Seriously, what's with the trend of making stuff that should be basic options Stratagems?

Karol wrote:
Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Absolutely not.

It's something that should just exist for certain vehicles, period. Sisters at least can with their FW vehicle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Absolutely not.

It's something that should just exist for certain vehicles, period. Sisters at least can with their FW vehicle.

And why is that? I can list a ton of things, that should be basic upgrades, but which are stratagems. Clearly GW thinks that puting such rules in to the game should be done with stratagems. It is clear, that if anything the rules has a bigger chance to be a one, then them suddenly rewriting all transports.

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Absolutely not.

It's something that should just exist for certain vehicles, period. Sisters at least can with their FW vehicle.

And why is that? I can list a ton of things, that should be basic upgrades, but which are stratagems. Clearly GW thinks that puting such rules in to the game should be done with stratagems. It is clear, that if anything the rules has a bigger chance to be a one, then them suddenly rewriting all transports.

Certain basic upgrades weren't the point of certain units. The point of Rhinos, Ghost Arks, etc. was to provide safety across the battlefield but at least let you get some potshots in with your weapons so you're not totally useless. Couple that being lost and how bad the current Transportation rules are, out of principle it needs to be fixed.

The Ork Trukk has a weapon which can only be fired when a unit is Embarked in the Trukk. I feel like this would be a decent way to represent fire points for all Factions.

Yeah, it's one of the few things where I feel streamlining in 8th went too far. I'm not someone who misses armor facings or firing arcs or any of that rubbish, but I think with the price you pay for the Rhino and the little need of additional movement you have in 8th it would go a long way if my Plague marines could fire their two Plasmas or Blight launchers from the hatch. I always liked that and it felt pretty stylish. I also think it would be pretty easily implemented in 8th.

If anything, I agree it should appear as a stratagem, just to keep transports from becoming cheap tanks.

I feel that for the most part, transports would want to stay buttoned up, drop troops off at their destination and either run support or get the hell out of the way to go get reinforcements*. Having them lounge around the battlefield with some heavy weapon lascannon guys hanging out the roof doesn’t sound right.

* Thinking about it, allowing transports in your deployment zone to respawn destroyed squads doesn’t sound like a bad ability or stratagem.

 Stormonu wrote:
If anything, I agree it should appear as a stratagem, just to keep transports from becoming cheap tanks.

I feel that for the most part, transports would want to stay buttoned up, drop troops off at their destination and either run support or get the hell out of the way to go get reinforcements*. Having them lounge around the battlefield with some heavy weapon lascannon guys hanging out the roof doesn’t sound right.

* Thinking about it, allowing transports in your deployment zone to respawn destroyed squads doesn’t sound like a bad ability or stratagem.

What cheap tanks? Can you really think of an example of this being abusive or is this just an irrational thought?

Rhino w/ 2 dev squads vs. buying a Razorback seems breakable if you have fire points.

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Make it a stratagem. Pay 1-2 CP and you can get a unit from the transport shot when embarked.

Absolutely not.

It's something that should just exist for certain vehicles, period. Sisters at least can with their FW vehicle.

And why is that? I can list a ton of things, that should be basic upgrades, but which are stratagems. Clearly GW thinks that puting such rules in to the game should be done with stratagems. It is clear, that if anything the rules has a bigger chance to be a one, then them suddenly rewriting all transports.

So because gw is junk as game designer everybody should imitate them and make equally junk rules?

Fire points never made much sense to me for closed vehicles. I think more open topped vehicles should exist.
I understand that the loss of firepower for being on a transport is very punishing, that with transports being more expensive and all of that, made transports not that usefull.

But I dont think having units firing at will from a transport is how things should work.
For example, things like Orks and Dark Eldars, I find totally fine for them to fire from light vehicles, like pirates.
But armies like marines, sisters, imperial guard, should not hide inside vehicles, shooting. They should ride the vehicles disembark and shoot, like the marine primaris rhino.

My favourite army is mech Tau with breachers in devilfish. But for me, mech is not units inside transports, but shooting units using transports for movility.

I would like fire points and wrecks.

 flandarz wrote:
The Ork Trukk has a weapon which can only be fired when a unit is Embarked in the Trukk. I feel like this would be a decent way to represent fire points for all Factions.

that is a good idea too. not sure, if it would work for all factions. orcs mounting a gun on anything makes sense. eldar doing something decandents and having a gun outside makes sense too. But a rhino with a gun mounted on it turns in to a razorback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 782596 10635070 wrote:

So because gw is junk as game designer everybody should imitate them and make equally junk rules?

GW is the only source of rules, unless you happen to play tournaments. I am not even close to being a tournament player, but from what I read around, non tournament orgeniser in europe or US did any unit rules rewrites.

So if GW decides something is the way they do it, it is the way to do it.

 Stormonu wrote:
Rhino w/ 2 dev squads vs. buying a Razorback seems breakable if you have fire points.

LOL you serious? Pay the straight points for a TLasback or pay 85+ points to do the same one on a Rhino that's already 70+ points?

Totally breakable. Totally. Super breakable. I can't believe how broken that is.

I never understood how a Rhino was supposed to protect everyone inside if the hatches were all open with everyone leaning out firing wildly. Never made much sense to me.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I never understood how a Rhino was supposed to protect everyone inside if the hatches were all open with everyone leaning out firing wildly. Never made much sense to me.

Which is why, in ye olden days, units firing out of firing points made the vehicle count as Open topped when using the damage table.

That's if I remember correctly. I think I do though.

The removal of fire points is one of the better decisions GW made with 8th. Let all passengers in an open-topped transport fire, sure, but marines hiding in rhinos taking potshots all game is neither good gameplay nor does it make any sense.

Blastaar wrote:
The removal of fire points is one of the better decisions GW made with 8th. Let all passengers in an open-topped transport fire, sure, but marines hiding in rhinos taking potshots all game is neither good gameplay nor does it make any sense.

Explain why it isn't good gameplay (for units that cost as much as the transport or more to actually contribute under the current garbage Transport rules) or why it doesn't make any sense (seeing as, if Dark Eldar can fire out of a Venom with super high accuracy, a Marine could do that from a slower vehicle).

What about bringing back Fire Points but imposing a -1 to hit penalty for units shooting out of them, to represent the restricted aim?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
The removal of fire points is one of the better decisions GW made with 8th. Let all passengers in an open-topped transport fire, sure, but marines hiding in rhinos taking potshots all game is neither good gameplay nor does it make any sense.

Explain why it isn't good gameplay (for units that cost as much as the transport or more to actually contribute under the current garbage Transport rules) or why it doesn't make any sense (seeing as, if Dark Eldar can fire out of a Venom with super high accuracy, a Marine could do that from a slower vehicle).

Take your question this its logical conclusion for the stated army. You are fine with Sternguard or Centurions shotgunning of a Land Raider?

I hate autocorrect. Shotgunning should be 'shooting out'.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
The removal of fire points is one of the better decisions GW made with 8th. Let all passengers in an open-topped transport fire, sure, but marines hiding in rhinos taking potshots all game is neither good gameplay nor does it make any sense.

Explain why it isn't good gameplay (for units that cost as much as the transport or more to actually contribute under the current garbage Transport rules) or why it doesn't make any sense (seeing as, if Dark Eldar can fire out of a Venom with super high accuracy, a Marine could do that from a slower vehicle).

Mobile-bunker strategies aren't very interactive, that's why. You're paying points to improve a unit's durability and mobility in a way that encourages boring gameplay. It may be, or have been in the past, effective but it isn't especially engaging for either player. There are better options available to a war-game ruleset, GW simply refuses to use them.

It doesn't make sense for the Imperium's finest super soldiers to be cowering in their transport all battle.

Only if you let me damage units in the transport when they stick their heads out/open the ports.

Bring back fire points and you'd almost certainly see Impulsors filled to the brim with Hellblasters zipping around the battlefield protected by the hit points and 4++ save of the impulsor.

that'd proably be the new dominating meta choice.

Because if transports are useless to melee units, they should also be useless to shooting units

More than enough shooting in this game.

It seems rather simple that GW decided that outside of Transports designed for the occupants to shoot, they were getting rid of the rule. Thus, Rhinos lost their fire point, but not Ork Truks or Drukari Raiders while Chimeras retained their Lasgun Arrays. Its all a matter of making rules to make the game play the way GW wants to to. Apparently Marines firing out of the top of Rhinos is not the way they want the game to play.

 carldooley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
The removal of fire points is one of the better decisions GW made with 8th. Let all passengers in an open-topped transport fire, sure, but marines hiding in rhinos taking potshots all game is neither good gameplay nor does it make any sense.

Explain why it isn't good gameplay (for units that cost as much as the transport or more to actually contribute under the current garbage Transport rules) or why it doesn't make any sense (seeing as, if Dark Eldar can fire out of a Venom with super high accuracy, a Marine could do that from a slower vehicle).

Take your question this its logical conclusion for the stated army. You are fine with Sternguard or Centurions shotgunning of a Land Raider?

I hate autocorrect. Shotgunning should be 'shooting out'.

Land Raiders never had firing points but what's the problem with either of those units shooting out of a Land Raider at certain amounts besides "I don't like it"?

Generally, the Transports that allow shooting are the more "destructible" ones. That seems to be on purpose, so the addition of "fire points" would likely need to come with the penalty of reduced Toughness and worse Saves.