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More than a primaris marine for that POS is just silly. They have friggen 1 base attack.

So do GK strikes and interceptors. And interceptors cost 20pts.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Seriously warp talons 19 points?

More than a primaris marine for that POS is just silly. They have friggen 1 base attack.

They also have a jump pack, 2 lightening claws, 5+ invul, daemon keyword and the ability to shut off overwatch. So 19 points of equipment plus a t4 body and an awesome special ability.

At 19 points and the ability to almost guarantee charges with EC and Night Lords, I can see them being really competitive.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Seriously warp talons 19 points? More than a primaris marine for that POS is just silly. They have friggen 1 base attack.

What should the points a unit with these stats be? -- Deepstrike, A3, AP2, reroll wounds, ignore overwatch, DttFE, and a 3+/5++.

Daermons got mad point drops. Go for all choas!

Obliterators are down 20...*sigh*

Looks like every space wolf unit got drops.

Except TWC

PM is obviously worth more than 14 points. Whatevers.

Rubric is still going to be pretty good with all that high AP 1 damage coming out of marines these days. They dropped 2 points as well I think too. Magnus also dropped. Now that Daemon price isn't autoinclude...You might be be taking a magnus in their place. Personally I'd rather play with magnus anyways.

Eh. The points are a bit of a wash. PM are better at taking hits despite the Rubric's rule. It's really just the cheaper caster.

Magnus dropped? Wow...how much?

 Xenomancers wrote:


Crons got drops...including their best units...They will likely be OP now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Seriously warp talons 19 points? More than a primaris marine for that POS is just silly. They have friggen 1 base attack.

What should the points a unit with these stats be? -- Deepstrike, A3, AP2, reroll wounds, ignore overwatch, DttFE, and a 3+/5++.

Daermons got mad point drops. Go for all choas!

Obliterators are down 20...*sigh*

Looks like every space wolf unit got drops.

Except TWC

PM is obviously worth more than 14 points. Whatevers.

Rubric is still going to be pretty good with all that high AP 1 damage coming out of marines these days. They dropped 2 points as well I think too. Magnus also dropped. Now that Daemon price isn't autoinclude...You might be be taking a magnus in their place. Personally I'd rather play with magnus anyways.

Eh. The points are a bit of a wash. PM are better at taking hits despite the Rubric's rule. It's really just the cheaper caster.

Magnus dropped? Wow...how much?

DttFE is worth 0 points and you forgot the key part of their Ignore Overwatch ability: they gotta come from Deep Strike.

Space wolves dropped points? How did the dreads do?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Daermons got mad point drops. Go for all choas!

Crons got drops...including their best units...They will likely be OP now.

Which mad drops did Daemons get? Most of the units that got drops were bad. Depending on if FW CSM get nerfs the Chaos faction could be going into the pooper for a few months until the best SM sub-factions get another nerf (if they get another nerf).

Which of the best Cron units got buffed? Tesla Immortals and TBs, Destroyers, Doomsday Arks, Doomscythes did not get buffs. Depending on CWE and Drukhari changes Necrons could be tier 1 (just below certain tier 0 SM sub-factions), but I don't think your comment was accurate.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

DttFE is worth 0 points

Not in the marine meta.

and you forgot the key part of their Ignore Overwatch ability: they gotta come from Deep Strike.

I don't see the problem when I'd run them Raptorial with a Smash Lord, anyway.

Someone said PM are still 16 points. Has anyone seen a good copy?

I mean they may still be fragile (although a lot less than they were) - but at what point on Warp Talons are people just saying "never never never"? 19 points seems reasonable to me.

I still think the weakness is "we deep strike in, and then we charge, oh no the charge dice refuse to cooperate no matter what stratagems I use" - and now the unit is a sitting duck that achieved nothing. But thats true for most DS->Assault units.

If this is correct big blobs of possessed seem like the way to go. I felt they were borderline there anyway.

There's an interesting subset of CSM players who are staunchly opposed to any kind of risk/reward mechanic.

No psychic powers, no assaulting (because you might fail charges), no summoning, definitely no daemon weapons... basically the ideal is to set up a gunline with full rerolls and passive army-wide bonuses, and take as much randomness out of the game as possible.

I assume this has something to do with the pathology of loss aversion. Still, is it not a little bizarre to involve yourself so deeply with an army called Chaos when you have such deep repugnance towards any kind of unpredictability in the first place?

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's an interesting subset of CSM players who are staunchly opposed to any kind of risk/reward mechanic.

No psychic powers, no assaulting (because you might fail charges), no summoning, definitely no daemon weapons... basically the ideal is to set up a gunline with full rerolls and passive army-wide bonuses, and take as much randomness out of the game as possible.

I assume this has something to do with the pathology of loss aversion. Still, is it not a little bizarre to involve yourself so deeply with an army called Chaos when you have such deep repugnance towards any kind of unpredictability in the first place?

That subset exists for all factions. It just seems worse for chaos because most of what we do falls under that category.

As opposed to loyalist marines who generally do that whole gun line reroll no randomness thing you described.

It may have something to do with some of the moronic randomness we had to deal with in previous editions as well.

And the only bad about the talons new cost is raptors didn't get a buff as well. If chosen don't get a drop it'll be annoying.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

DttFE is worth 0 points

Not in the marine meta.

and you forgot the key part of their Ignore Overwatch ability: they gotta come from Deep Strike.

I don't see the problem when I'd run them Raptorial with a Smash Lord, anyway.

Someone said PM are still 16 points. Has anyone seen a good copy?

Which is all extra CP to spend on the squads and to get that Warlord Trait.
And yes DttFE is worth 0 points in the Marine meta. It could've been removed entirely and honestly nobody would've noticed and, if they did, nobody would care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's an interesting subset of CSM players who are staunchly opposed to any kind of risk/reward mechanic.

No psychic powers, no assaulting (because you might fail charges), no summoning, definitely no daemon weapons... basically the ideal is to set up a gunline with full rerolls and passive army-wide bonuses, and take as much randomness out of the game as possible.

I assume this has something to do with the pathology of loss aversion. Still, is it not a little bizarre to involve yourself so deeply with an army called Chaos when you have such deep repugnance towards any kind of unpredictability in the first place?

Then why pay for as though you were consistently benefitting from those like they weren't random, or why would you take a Daemon weapon when all the other Relic weapons are just better?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crons got drops...including their best units...They will likely be OP now.
.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Necron best units: tesla immortal(no change), dda(no change), doom scythe(no change). Out of about 1600 pts of any competive necrons only change was overlord got about 14 pts or so cheaper. WEEEEEEEEEE! What a change! And most of the remaining points go often to destroyers(no change) and rest to scarabs(no change).

Gee. OP as if. Competive lists barely changed. Maybe extra tesla immortal if you didn't already field 3x10. Competive necron list gets very little out of this. For casual games internal balance got BIT better but for competive lists nothing major changed.

What you think necron best units are? Praetorians? Joke. Lychguard? Joke. C'tans aren't hot either and doubtful these point drops make them either.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
The base cost of a Chaos Terminator now matches the base cost of a Loyalist one, so instead of complaining about how their Terminators cost more for no ____ing reason they'll have to complain about how poorly Terminators compare to the Loyalist's new Primaris toys instead.

Nah that's ok. We'll keep our deep striking/some of the best looking models in the game (that goes for all three marks) terminators.

You keep your ugly lore ruining primaris.

I'm talking about stats and game performance. Aesthetics and lore are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion (i.e. "here are some of the new points values, discuss), and in that context either Terminators need to get cheaper or Aggressors and Assault Centurions need to get more expensive or both.

(I don't want to derail the thread but I'm not a big fan of the current Terminators. It's the way they're posed rather than anything wrong with the design of the armor, I liked the old metal ones just fine.)

Yeah I know. But you were taking a jab at chaos players so I took one back.

As far as stats/performance goes we're not getting primaris so I see no reason to worry about that. The problem is all the rules loyalists have gotten recently that other factions haven't gotten equivalents of.

Before c:sm got those primaris weren't that big of a problem.

You took that as a jab at Chaos players? Chaos Termies were more expensive for no reason. That was a legitimate complaint. It isn't anymore after CA 19, so the next obvious complaint is the same one Loyalists who've done the math have been making for a while; why is a Terminator almost the same price as an Aggressor when three Aggressors are blatently better than five Terminators. That's an even more legitimate complaint for Chaos than it is for Loyalists since Chaos doesn't have the option to take the new overpowered crud.

tneva82 wrote:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Necron best units: tesla immortal(no change), dda(no change), doom scythe(no change). Out of about 1600 pts of any competive necrons only change was overlord got about 14 pts or so cheaper. WEEEEEEEEEE! What a change! And most of the remaining points go often to destroyers(no change) and rest to scarabs(no change).

Gee. OP as if. Competive lists barely changed. Maybe extra tesla immortal if you didn't already field 3x10. Competive necron list gets very little out of this. For casual games internal balance got BIT better but for competive lists nothing major changed.

What you think necron best units are? Praetorians? Joke. Lychguard? Joke. C'tans aren't hot either and doubtful these point drops make them either.

It will be based on the confused rumour that tomb blades went down 7 points.
Its somewhat amazing how you can watch one set of rumours - and any mistakes - be repeated in half a dozen places on the internet.

Are Ravenguard Centurions worth it without the WL trait and stratagems? After all - it's just more traits and CP.

Well, of course, one would say -- they're silly good. Are they silly good for the points when they're walking across the field with no help at all? (probably a bit, because 4 2+ T4 wounds is just silly at 30 points)

There isn't a lot better than the nurgle daemon fist. The others are situationally useful. As in, "will I need this in the games I am about to play" useful. Lots of stuff falls under this umbrella. It doesn't make them bad. It means you pick them with more care then something you mindlessly spam as much as you're allowed to.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No tau points here...heard they had a lot of their weapons getting cheaper (maybe good for crisis suits?)

All I want for christmas... Is a cheaper Ghostkeel

What's the business sense in making the coolest model in the army so damn weak anyway. Needs to come down at least 30-40 points after wargear/ Ion Raker/ Burst Cannons/ Drones are added.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Are Ravenguard Centurions worth it without the WL trait and stratagems? After all - it's just more traits and CP.

Well, of course, one would say -- they're silly good. Are they silly good for the points when they're walking across the field with no help at all? (probably a bit, because 4 2+ T4 wounds is just silly at 30 points)

There isn't a lot better than the nurgle daemon fist. The others are situationally useful. As in, "will I need this in the games I am about to play" useful. Lots of stuff falls under this umbrella. It doesn't make them bad. It means you pick them with more care then something you mindlessly spam as much as you're allowed to.

It isn't 30 points after wargear just remember that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It isn't 30 points after wargear just remember that.

For sure, but so do Terminators and they're 23 points for half the wounds.

4 wounds, plus layered rules, plus a points cost as if they didn't get either of the first two things creates quite a mess on a unit with the combined wounds of a knight, but compartmentalized. That on top of armor requiring anti-tank, but where few things wound them on 2s to a point where shooting a lascannon at them is no easier than shooting it a knight, but with way more risk, because of the aforementioned compartmentalization.

The fix on Centurions is probably to give them native deep strike (which dilutes the RG ability perk) but up their points a respectable chunk.

Or not have the stupid successor chapter tactics in the game full stop (sorry Aeldari) and price things on the basis individual chapters are real factions now. I can't see that happening though.

Movement issues are real - but even a topped out loadout at say 13 points for wound with T5 2+ save seems a bit good, even before various perks you can boost it with.

Tyel wrote:
The fix on Centurions is probably to give them native deep strike (which dilutes the RG ability perk) but up their points a respectable chunk.

Or not have the stupid successor chapter tactics in the game full stop (sorry Aeldari) and price things on the basis individual chapters are real factions now. I can't see that happening though.

Movement issues are real - but even a topped out loadout at say 13 points for wound with T5 2+ save seems a bit good, even before various perks you can boost it with.

None of the successor abilities break them whatsoever. Unless you think the 11" Flamers are broken, in which case I dunno what to tell ya.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It isn't 30 points after wargear just remember that.

For sure, but so do Terminators and they're 23 points for half the wounds.

4 wounds, plus layered rules, plus a points cost as if they didn't get either of the first two things creates quite a mess on a unit with the combined wounds of a knight, but compartmentalized. That on top of armor requiring anti-tank, but where few things wound them on 2s to a point where shooting a lascannon at them is no easier than shooting it a knight, but with way more risk, because of the aforementioned compartmentalization.

Which is why you add all the points together before the comparison. It's 54 I think for the Hurricane + Flamer loadout? Keep in mind of course Terminators aren't good, so making Centurions almost 80-100 points (which we just had happen!) doesn't provide incentive to take Terminators.

Could Centurions be 60 with that loadout? Probably. Are they super good? Hell yeah. Are they game breaking though? Nah.

Also you provide a problem that has to do with a core system issue (the wounding process not being granular whatsoever), which is not their issue specifically. Lascannons are wounding Necron Lords and Monoliths at the same rate after all.

Poxwalkers dropping down to 4 points each is why I have finally built up 30 of them and plan to paint them all this weekend. First time I will be properly using contrast.

11" Flamers would be real nice for my poor Burna Boyz.

Sumilidon wrote:
Poxwalkers dropping down to 4 points each is why I have finally built up 30 of them and plan to paint them all this weekend. First time I will be properly using contrast.

Are we sure abut that one though? The leaked DG pages are very blurry, and so my money is on them dropping to 5 at best. 2 point drop for a normal 6 point troop seems a bit excessive/hopeful. Not that I personally won't be buying lots of them* if 4 points is true.

*well a proxy since I can't stand the normal poxwalker model for some reason.

 Castozor wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Poxwalkers dropping down to 4 points each is why I have finally built up 30 of them and plan to paint them all this weekend. First time I will be properly using contrast.

Are we sure abut that one though? The leaked DG pages are very blurry, and so my money is on them dropping to 5 at best. 2 point drop for a normal 6 point troop seems a bit excessive/hopeful. Not that I personally won't be buying lots of them* if 4 points is true.

*well a proxy since I can't stand the normal poxwalker model for some reason.

photos I've seen are quite clear. Poxwalkers are 5ppm now. Not 4 not 6

-

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's an interesting subset of CSM players who are staunchly opposed to any kind of risk/reward mechanic.

No psychic powers, no assaulting (because you might fail charges), no summoning, definitely no daemon weapons... basically the ideal is to set up a gunline with full rerolls and passive army-wide bonuses, and take as much randomness out of the game as possible.

I assume this has something to do with the pathology of loss aversion. Still, is it not a little bizarre to involve yourself so deeply with an army called Chaos when you have such deep repugnance towards any kind of unpredictability in the first place?

I mean you've just described the dominant playstyle of 8th.

It's not really surprising that people are gonna think in those terms. Maybe the design of the edition is just bad if it flattens the outcomes and differences with a bunch of reroll auras

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which is why you add all the points together before the comparison. It's 54 I think for the Hurricane + Flamer loadout? Keep in mind of course Terminators aren't good, so making Centurions almost 80-100 points (which we just had happen!) doesn't provide incentive to take Terminators.

Could Centurions be 60 with that loadout? Probably. Are they super good? Hell yeah. Are they game breaking though? Nah.

Also you provide a problem that has to do with a core system issue (the wounding process not being granular whatsoever), which is not their issue specifically. Lascannons are wounding Necron Lords and Monoliths at the same rate after all.

Yea, I cant reccomend a good point value for them even though Centurions break even D3 weapons.

Can we all agree, Logan on Storm Rider pts drop is a net gain for everyone ? Santa, your time has come, again. Sleigh all in the name of the all Father !! Then deliver unto the enemy coal, for they were very bad.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Can we all agree, Logan on Storm Rider pts drop is a net gain for everyone ? Santa, your time has come, again. Sleigh all in the name of the all Father !! Then deliver unto the enemy coal, for they were very bad.

Well it is officially the Christmas season.

Guess chaos and xenos were bad this year.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
I mean you've just described the dominant playstyle of 8th.

It's not really surprising that people are gonna think in those terms. Maybe the design of the edition is just bad if it flattens the outcomes and differences with a bunch of reroll auras

That was intentional and I completely understand, people want to win of course. But it doesn't mean we should embrace the playstyle if we consider it bad design. An ostensibly social game being predictably decided on stovepiped, list-building min-maxing at home and P2W model purchases rather than interactions between the players is gonna be a disaster.