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Voss wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

'Low' miracle dice are good for feeding into the Moment of Grace stratagem, which lets you dump 1-3 miracle dice into a roll after its rolled for +1 per die, which lets you turn an important failed hit/wound/save into a success.

There are some other recycling things here and there, but yes, they're mostly 'nice' rather than amazing.


Personally, the daunting thing about the codex is it looks like it really favors a massive horde of 150+ infantry models with a lot of spamming of specific units and I really don't want to do that, especially since the optimization says that <melee> need to be that color and <HS> have to be the other one, and maybe the ones in the middle dancing about all game can be that middle color. And if you want to try to lean hard on the miracle dice, you have to either create gimmick detachments or go all in.

I'd call resurrecting characters better than "nice". People keep claiming snipers are a problem for sisters like a single one can down a character easily but only a few snipers can do that easily and even if they did the ability to go "lol no" and throw away a bunch of 1s and 2s and bring them back with 3 wounds in going to be a source of a lot of frustration. Especially if it was a "last ditch" shot and given the Sister reliance on aura buffs its a great insurance policy.

As for the Sister Horde I'd believe it. GW just prioritised and entire model range to appease all the people who say "I'd love Sisters I would totally start and army IF THEY WERE PLASTIC" so forcing them all to buy 10 $/£/€40 boxes of them to run an effective army is a pretty hilarious way to make them put their money where their mouth is. Yes its gakky, but I have my 100 sisters in good ole metal so once again IDGAF.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

Why even play 40k if you're going to use basic b***h missile turrets anyway? Just get some world war 2 kits and make pew pew noises.

Nothing you say will ever make me buy or field a sculpt that I don't like.

Because at heart I'm an IG player (even though I'm not using them atm).
Because WWII lacks Titans, dreadnoughts, SW, Ad-Mech, Khorne demons, etc etc etc

But yes, I do play WWII games (and other historics, some very detailed rules wise), more than I do 40k in fact. Why don't you come join us & play real games where the direction your tank/turret is facing matters, you can't trace LoS from just any old bit of a model, & games last more than two turns?

Also, Missionaries and Preachers have sadly lost most of their weapon options. I thought in an Index friendly environment this would be no problem... except there actually are not Missionaries or Preachers in the Index, there's only a Ministorum Priest and Uriah Jacobus... But I guess those Index datasheets can be technically still used...

 Crimson wrote:
Also, Missionaries and Preachers have sadly lost most of their weapon options. I thought in an Index friendly environment this would be no problem... except there actually are not Missionaries or Preachers in the Index, there's only a Ministorum Priest and Uriah Jacobus... But I guess those Index datasheets can be technically still used...

the problem is, for how long? because we don't know how Warhammer legends will shake out for the Ministorum as a whole. for all we know those index options will be defunct along with the Repressor.

im trying to hold back negativity since people get really touchy about that around here, but this is why i feel let down by all this. out of all the things i wanted for the book, i sort of got one thing, and in exchange...

A fair few weapon options got lost.
An HQ was outright lost.
plus hits occurred to the playstyle i had built for.

and the crux of the new excitement is around orders and playstyles i didn't want to use. I heard all about the sister castle during the beta dex. and yet now im supposed to be excited about horde sisters because AP-2 aura If im willing to go Valorous Heart and cart imagifiers about. or bloody rose because they make not just melee more effective and have the best rules synergies for that, which more of our models are now suited to, but also are likely the best subfaction to employ our deepstrikers. or for a "centerpiece" HQ i also don't want to use due to order incompatability (Junith).

it's great the sisters are in plastic, but why did this book have to remove instead of just add to? why among the new options is everything so restrictively specfic? why couldn't there have been a mono-codex rule to benefit more than half the book by taking that choice (gotta love the ORDER, then sacred rites spots where they overlap, vs where they don't, vs where nothing is)? why couldn't we at least get a jump pack equivalent canoness that isn't a character? (seriously, juniths ride screams Sisters Catacomb command barge dual kit, and they missed it!)

well, we're past that now, and onto seeing what comes of it all. hopefully sisters will do well, and maybe down the line there'll be something i can be more excited about in this. I wonder what the FAQ and errata will bring. oh, and hopefully that puts the Miracle dice thing to rest. personally i just assume it's the weaker interp until otherwise noted.

Yeah, removing options is maddening. When will the Legends happen? I have the ancient plasmagun carrying Missionary by Jes Goodwin that I'd really like to use. At least Uriah's gear is covered by the Missionary's options in the new codex, so that model will remain usable.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, removing options is maddening. When will the Legends happen? I have the ancient plasmagun carrying Missionary by Jes Goodwin that I'd really like to use. At least Uriah's gear is covered by the Missionary's options in the new codex, so that model will remain usable.

True, at least Uriah's model can still be used. still wish we had that HQ choice back for detachments stuff. No idea when legends will happen, but at this point i almost want it to hurry up so i know how it affects each army i like.

I probably wouldn't be so annoyed with some of the option removals if it wasn't for the fact this whole thing is being heralded like a great return. some of the changes invalidate old models made WYSIWYG, like the stormbolter-heavy bolter update on some vehicles (and who do i point at for putting a heavy weapon on immolators anyway!), or the decision to rejig who can take storm bolters removes some of the bolter efficiency which weakens that one strategem we have tied to them in the same year CSM and SM got bolter discipline. Blessed blades alleviates some of the melee kit loss, but thats only because so little in the army can even choose to take stuff and despite it's cost it's darn good- except the new melee squad can't equip the superior with it despite not even needing to model a different sword (and wheres my hammers anyway...). guess im kitting my canoness as a melee build or giving her the relic pistol, since i can't give her much longer ranged, and for some reason despite her rank she disdains every bolter variant except basic and condemnor...

So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

It is new. (And as yet, unreleased) It starts with its six different relics and it can shoot all its Pistols.

It's expected to be a Diorama-ish model

 Crimson wrote:
It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

Okay, that helps a bit. Seems odd to have a datasheet for a model that isn't even out yet.

And, can it fire all 6 bolt pistols per turn? Does it have 6 arms? What even is it?

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

Doesn't it look like the new undead hero diorama, where it loses models when it loses wounds?

 Togusa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

Okay, that helps a bit. Seems odd to have a datasheet for a model that isn't even out yet.

And, can it fire all 6 bolt pistols per turn? Does it have 6 arms? What even is it?

14 attacks, 18 wounds, 6 bolts pistols. How many arms do you bet?

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

Its basically the battle reliquary from the old Brettonians. Dead saint being carried around by a bunch of people armed with relics with the damage brackets representing the bearers being "slain" so losing attacks / relics as you go.

you can shoot with all your pistols assuming you dont fire any non pistol weapons (if it has any)

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

Never, which makes it an odd claim to make. It was reasonable two editions ago, but... even from the start of 8th edition it wasn't all that durable thanks to weight of fire and even low AP.
Its a downright laughable claim to make now.

The comment you referenced also talked about the 4+ invul, and the ability to ignore save mods of of up to -2. Also, throw in Hospitallers to resurrect, and the ability to auto 6 save when necessary, plus the never fail morale. Oh, and the deny the witch, while weak on its own, does have a few buffs now which make it usable.

But you know, go right ahead and only mention two things in the list.

PenitentJake wrote:

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

The comment you referenced also talked about the 4+ invul, and the ability to ignore save mods of of up to -2. Also, throw in Hospitallers to resurrect, and the ability to auto 6 save when necessary, plus the never fail morale. Oh, and the deny the witch, while weak on its own, does have a few buffs now which make it usable.

But you know, go right ahead and only mention two things in the list.

You mean their statline, before you have to add in a bunch of auras and having to use their miracle dice for saves (because you are going to need them for their lack of stats). So yes I will mention the terrible stats that need multiple buffs/auras/miracle dice to make them "durable".

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

Its basically the battle reliquary from the old Brettonians. Dead saint being carried around by a bunch of people armed with relics with the damage brackets representing the bearers being "slain" so losing attacks / relics as you go.

you can shoot with all your pistols assuming you dont fire any non pistol weapons (if it has any)

This just makes me insanely happy.

Agreed- such a story based unit. They depart from the sanctum and have to cross the board. The survivors of the mission become the canonesses that lead the detachments that you use to build your detachments.

Really a shout out to the type of stuff that the witch hunter dex had going on.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Voss wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

'Low' miracle dice are good for feeding into the Moment of Grace stratagem, which lets you dump 1-3 miracle dice into a roll after its rolled for +1 per die, which lets you turn an important failed hit/wound/save into a success.

There are some other recycling things here and there, but yes, they're mostly 'nice' rather than amazing.


Personally, the daunting thing about the codex is it looks like it really favors a massive horde of 150+ infantry models with a lot of spamming of specific units and I really don't want to do that, especially since the optimization says that <melee> need to be that color and <HS> have to be the other one, and maybe the ones in the middle dancing about all game can be that middle color. And if you want to try to lean hard on the miracle dice, you have to either create gimmick detachments or go all in.

I'd call resurrecting characters better than "nice". People keep claiming snipers are a problem for sisters like a single one can down a character easily but only a few snipers can do that easily and even if they did the ability to go "lol no" and throw away a bunch of 1s and 2s and bring them back with 3 wounds in going to be a source of a lot of frustration. Especially if it was a "last ditch" shot and given the Sister reliance on aura buffs its a great insurance policy.

As for the Sister Horde I'd believe it. GW just prioritised and entire model range to appease all the people who say "I'd love Sisters I would totally start and army IF THEY WERE PLASTIC" so forcing them all to buy 10 $/£/€40 boxes of them to run an effective army is a pretty hilarious way to make them put their money where their mouth is. Yes its gakky, but I have my 100 sisters in good ole metal so once again IDGAF.

For the record you cannot use them on the "revive roll"......

I like the models so far, got the box because I always said I'd get it if plastic sisters came out. Hated they were monopose but since this is mostly a modeling project I'll live. I know how to convert and guard leave me with no shortage of bits to fix the models with wargear I dislike. Most of them look great, not had a chance to build it, but my only complaints appear to be the repentia and melee servitor guys. Mainly just because I don't care for their look. That said, the canoness datasheet gave me a serious headache. It's so convoluted to have the upgrades tied to specific weapons, but guys at my club say I should be fine to take whatever because you don't take upgrades in a specific order or something? At first glance, it seems the canoness included has an illegal loadout, so can't wait to see that faqd. Not giving preachers the option for at least an eviscerator is cruel, it's their most iconic weapon and I'd hoped plastic sisters would mean a new preacher IG and Sisters could use with a couple weapon options.

As for what I like, miracle dice is a cool mechanic. It's different, it offers some cool tricks, and "feels" right. I need some games to get a feel for it but first glance is it's no Order mechanic like guard get, but it's still pretty cool. Some of the new units, like the triumph of St Katherine and the battle shrine sound really cool and thematic. I like GW took the time to make sure 2 of their 3 hero units were able to be with whatever ordo too, that was nice. I like that the book feels thematic without being busted. Yeah they never had a shot beating marines but they feel fine for casual environment, and I get the feeling a small detachment of sisters will do well as an ally for stuff like IG. IG and Sisters characters have abilities that overlap and they complement each other pretty well, so they'll be fun to try sometime. Their issues are the same as always. Short range, not super fast, and limited weapon options. They still feel like an army that needs allies, but I guess we'll see.

I've been reading through it for a while now and it's interesting, this codex is the first in a while where I feel like it's going to take some reading to get the really good tricks out of it. I know some people feel they've already figured it out based off a few scans but I think there's some good stuff here. Bare minimum, I think a minimum sisters batallion for CP generation and pysker denial has promise, considering admech do the same thing for graia to try and survive pysker attacks.

It would be nice if you could use miracle dice on the rolls checking if a transport explodes and then if the embarked models die. There would be a nice opportunity to put guaranteed 1s and 2s to use

Sisters now are an hybrid melee/shooting army.

If you don't plan to play them that way and try to just castle and shoot, you will not get much mileage out of them.

I have been studying the codex for a while, and they have some seriously strong combinations.
Don't be so fast to dismiss miracle dice, they can pull of game changing moves even in the worst interpretation.

Spoletta wrote:
I have been studying the codex for a while, and they have some seriously strong combinations.

Go on... ?

I'm focusing on bloody rose since that is the paint scheme i'm aiming for, but for example a big mistake i see in this thread is thinking that the best use of a miracle dice is a last ditch 6++ or a melta damage.

Sisters are the only faction in the game with GUARANTEED charge from deep strike. 100% chance as long as you have a 6 and a 3 or a 5 and 4 or just a 5 and 3 dices to discard. You can't even Vect it, it will just happen.

They have the best chaff clearing in the game for 1 cp. I have yet to see anyone pulling 40 BS 3+ S4 AP-1 shots from deepstrike at 110 points, multiple times per game.

Lots of AP-4 and -5, which is really nice against marines.

They can select a trait tailored to the match, or take two and then start rerolling them until they find the good ones.

They can negate slay the warlord.

They are full of cheap chars, and every time one dies you get bonuses. Not to mention that the canonesses are mini smashcaptains for a less than half the points.

I mean I've been surprised how little has been made of miracle dice and what they could do for sisters melee. s3 doesn't hurt too much when you can promise your self at a couple 6s.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I mean I've been surprised how little has been made of miracle dice and what they could do for sisters melee. s3 doesn't hurt too much when you can promise your self at a couple 6s.

10 Zeraphym can auto charge from deepstrike and inflict 12,8 MEQ wounds for 170 points, without external buffs. More than 6 hurricane bolters rapid firing in assault doctrine, just to put thing in perspective.

Edit: 3 time more point efficient at removing primaris than stalker bolter intercessors in devastator doctrine. I would call it good.

That's going to make it hard to wait for that kit. Just six more hours and I can have my box...

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
I mean I've been surprised how little has been made of miracle dice and what they could do for sisters melee. s3 doesn't hurt too much when you can promise your self at a couple 6s.

A single automatic hit or (if you have a high enough dice) wound. Generally only on the fist-armed battle sister squads as all of your characters and assault units either lack faith or have a single miracle dice between them for the entire assault phase.

Then don't use it on the fists, use it on the superior with power sword that everyone laments as useless.

Spoletta wrote:
Not to mention that the canonesses are mini smashcaptains for a less than half the points.

I agree on the chaff clear/charge combo, but canonesses do lack that all important mobility of the smash captains (and a fair percentage of their damage). Even celestine can't deepstrike so the jump units are working in isolation outside of a daemonhunters terminator.

I haven't gone into the details on miracle dice personally because my rolls of those best not depend on me constantly getting 5's and 6's, but yes, if your focused on melee they can be useful, especially since charges occur at a different phase than the fight..

Also waiting on the FAQ before i sing the praises of using die at all in the fight or shoot phase for hits or wounds.

But Spoletta is onto some of the best offense the book has, because we can from multiple angles force charges, and you can always deepstrike zephyrim to help with charge rerolls should you want to equip the zephyim pennant. the synergy on this is full on bloody rose, so the models that it'll work on best are repentia, zephyrim, and seraphim, but still. also, since The Passion is one of the best sacred rites and these units all benefit, may as well use it in a mono-build and hold aegis if you need to anti-psyker.

in lieu of the loss of dominion vanguard, this and raw target saturation along with burning descent seraphim is a way to put some pressure on.

im just not so jazzed because of STR 3 in all that except repentia and the bolt pistols/potential inferno pistols, but it will clear chaff, and even potentially proc miracle die in the movement phase on the burning descents.

can't help the fact i think in rangebands and im working specifically on argent shroud, though.