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BrianDavion wrote:

 lifeafter wrote:

Andykp wrote:
This is one of things I dislike most about the horus heresey now that black library have butchered the story. All the traitors are tragic figures with daddy issues. It just feels very trite and condescending. It’s all too good guys vs tragic good guys gone bad. And it makes chaos marines feel more like ordinary marines with spikes on.

What should the motivation have been?

indeed. that the traitor primarchs had motivation and reason makes them intreasting characters... as opposed to 80s cartoon villians.

as for chaos marines feeling like ordinary marines, that might be the case early on, but you see the slow descent of the traitor legions into chaos throughout the series. "Slaves to Darkness" is when it is really hammered home

They still feel mostly like 80s cartoon villains. Like, perturabo literally kills his sister when she dares tell him he is kind of an ass.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It also, possibly speaks to his underestimating the Chaos Gods, if indeed he’d originally made a pact with them?

The notion of the Emperor making a pact with Chaos has really been addressed since it was first hinted at in VS. Given that Daemons are not noted for their honesty (and that this daemon had a massively vested interest in getting Horus juiced-up) I think a big pinch of salt is still required for that notion.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why? Because the Emperor designed it so they would.

Why else would he coincidentally treat half his Primarchs like crap and the other half as favoured sons?

The Horus Heresy was 100% manufactured to cull the Astartes as he had culled the Thunder Warriors beforehand. I suspect what threw a monkey wrench into the works was Magnus cocking up the Terran webway project.

That doesn't make sense though. He treated all his sons badly, the difference is some ignored it, covered it up in their heads or didn't see it and some couldn't do that. If the Emperor wanted to cull the Marines then why would he do it in such a colossally stupid, wasteful and risky way?

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why? Because the Emperor designed it so they would.

Why else would he coincidentally treat half his Primarchs like crap and the other half as favoured sons?

The Horus Heresy was 100% manufactured to cull the Astartes as he had culled the Thunder Warriors beforehand. I suspect what threw a monkey wrench into the works was Magnus cocking up the Terran webway project.

That doesn't make sense though. He treated all his sons badly, the difference is some ignored it, covered it up in their heads or didn't see it and some couldn't do that. If the Emperor wanted to cull the Marines then why would he do it in such a colossally stupid, wasteful and risky way?

Because the Emperor is an arrogant idiot and/or just a meat-puppet for Malcador.

I really doubt the Emperor treated Guilliman, Dorn or Russ anywhere near as cruelly and heartlessly as he treated Lorgar, Pererabo or Angron.

When the Emperor saw Guillimans empire, he praised him. When the Emperor saw Lorgars empire, and the worlds he brought compliance and stability to, he said nothing, despite Lorgar explicitly and intentionally disobeying his edicts, and then out of nowhere humiliates him with the spectre of the missing legions hanging over his head, despite CENTURIES of ignoring.

When the Emperor saw Dorn, he granted him the honour of Praetorian of Terra, giving him and his legion glory and the adoration of the fellow legions. When he saw Perterabo, he consigned him and his legion to dirty, unrecognised work, small isolated garrisons in remote areas of the galaxy.

When the Emperor saw Russ, he saw an arrogant braggart, and brought him to heel in a way that was acceptable to Russ and his culture, thus ensuring the eternal loyalty of Russ. When the Emperor saw Angron, he decided to spit in his face and condemn Angrons family to death because he wanted to deal with some random technobarbarians instead of supporting what is supposed to be his son against a culture that was clearly corrupt.

The standard way the Emperor introduced himself to the Primarchs was to magically appear on their planet, do something to beat them if they weren't onside immediately and move on. That happens for all of them.

As for how he treats them after the fact, that's largely a result of the reality that everything in the Heresy is a foregone conclusion. Angron was never going to not turn and the same applies to everyone and that leads to some stupid things happening.

I don't see how being a meat puppet for Malcador justifies the idea that the heresy was in any way planned.

Because making it planned is stupid. If the Emperor truly was a 38k+ year old walking God, he shouldn't be that stupid.

Malcador being a normal human, albeit an insanely powerful psyker, helps explains the dumbness.

The idea that old people are all super clever is... inaccurate, the older you get the more your biases sink in, the more you tend to be convinced you'd seen it all before and know it all. Maybe the Emperor's just one of those "know if all grand dad's" who sits around telling everything how things should be completely ignoring that the world has passed him by and he's no longer remotely with it

I've always kinda felt sorry for Curze. The guy ended up on a horrible world with no one to raise him, but he still tried to fix things. Too bad that he basically knew nothing except violence and fear.

Dude needed some serious therapy but instead he got an army and a license to kill. Then everyone got upset that the murderous psychopath was acting like a murderous psychopath...

 Tiennos wrote:
I've always kinda felt sorry for Curze. The guy ended up on a horrible world with no one to raise him, but he still tried to fix things. Too bad that he basically knew nothing except violence and fear.

Dude needed some serious therapy but instead he got an army and a license to kill. Then everyone got upset that the murderous psychopath was acting like a murderous psychopath...

He was also cursed with precognition but in the worst way. He always foresaw the worst possible future.

And the Emperor always had a purpose for each primarch and his legion. The night lords were supposed to be murderous psychopaths terrorizing planets into submission.

And they would have been the first legion to be purged for that very reason. To erase their stain from the imperium.

They were never a part of the imperium and never would be.

That's why Curze rebelled before the heresy even truly started. And why the night lords still don't play well with the other legions. The other legions had something to lose. Curze was always destined to be erased from the history of the imperium.

The problem with curze is that his answer to every crime was death... There was no due process, or punishment to fit the crime. He was basically a terrorist.

Because that's what the Emperor designed him to be.

All the primarchs were created by the Emperor for a specific purpose.

Curze was meant to be a monster and then was damned for it.

pm713 wrote:

That doesn't make sense though.

BaconCatBug is spot on. I has been confirmed by the former lead editor of the HH (when he was still in charge).

I'm not with you on this one. My greatest sympathy is for the most noble of all the Primarchs, Sanguinius, who was betrayed and murdered by Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Because that's what the Emperor designed him to be.

All the primarchs were created by the Emperor for a specific purpose.

Curze was meant to be a monster and then was damned for it.

This is not quite right. All the primarchs were scattered throughout the galaxy, many warped and changed from their original form and then raised on myriad bizarre worlds which left their imprints on them.

 Darian Aarush wrote:
I'm not with you on this one. My greatest sympathy is for the most noble of all the Primarchs, Sanguinius, who was betrayed and murdered by Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Because that's what the Emperor designed him to be.

All the primarchs were created by the Emperor for a specific purpose.

Curze was meant to be a monster and then was damned for it.

This is not quite right. All the primarchs were scattered throughout the galaxy, many warped and changed from their original form and then raised on myriad bizarre worlds which left their imprints on them.

Then explain why all the legions, which were created on Terra from their primarch's geneseed, and from Terran stock meshed up with their primarchs so perfectly when they were found?

The Emperor created each primarch and his legion to fill a specific role. It wasn't the primarch's/legion's fault if the purpose he created them for wasn't a pleasant or noble one.

And feth that blonde Mary Sue and his legion of cannibals. They're no less blood thirsty than any of the "traitors ".

Sorry if this is too off topic and pedantic, but it's been irritating me since I've seen the thread topic - which I assume is a reference to the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy FOR the Devil".

Can I ask that if the topic title is a reference to that song it is amended as appropriate?

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

That doesn't make sense though.

BaconCatBug is spot on. I has been confirmed by the former lead editor of the HH (when he was still in charge).

Spot on about what? What was confirmed by an editor? The post makes no sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because making it planned is stupid. If the Emperor truly was a 38k+ year old walking God, he shouldn't be that stupid.

Malcador being a normal human, albeit an insanely powerful psyker, helps explains the dumbness.

Or rather than trying to justify a stupid idea with Malcador being in charge you could go the more sensible route of just not have the heresy be planned.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Curze was meant to be a monster and then was damned for it.

He was supposed to be a controlled monster, using atrocity as a tool when necessary for purely utilitarian ends. Like the Operative from Serenity:

Serenity wrote:The Operative : I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : I don't murder children.
The Operative : I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative : It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative : I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

But the Emperor never seemed to understand that you can't spend your existence inflicting atrocities, even well-deserved ones, without either starting to take sadistic pleasure in it or going crazy. Curze ended up doing both, of course.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Curze was meant to be a monster and then was damned for it.

He was supposed to be a controlled monster, using atrocity as a tool when necessary for purely utilitarian ends. Like the Operative from Serenity:

Serenity wrote:The Operative : I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : I don't murder children.
The Operative : I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative : It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative : I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

But the Emperor never seemed to understand that you can't spend your existence inflicting atrocities, even well-deserved ones, without either starting to take sadistic pleasure in it or going crazy. Curze ended up doing both, of course.

Exactly. The Emperor created him for a purpose that would both damn him and turn him into a monster.

The primarchs and the legions were merely tools to him. He didn't care if they were corrupted by the purposes he created them to fill because when he was done with them he would destroy them just like the thunder warriors.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sorry if this is too off topic and pedantic, but it's been irritating me since I've seen the thread topic - which I assume is a reference to the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy FOR the Devil".

Can I ask that if the topic title is a reference to that song it is amended as appropriate?

For real, it was bugging the hell out of me too.

 Haasbioroid wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sorry if this is too off topic and pedantic, but it's been irritating me since I've seen the thread topic - which I assume is a reference to the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy FOR the Devil".

Can I ask that if the topic title is a reference to that song it is amended as appropriate?

For real, it was bugging the hell out of me too.

I'm glad it's not just me!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Haasbioroid wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sorry if this is too off topic and pedantic, but it's been irritating me since I've seen the thread topic - which I assume is a reference to the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy FOR the Devil".

Can I ask that if the topic title is a reference to that song it is amended as appropriate?

For real, it was bugging the hell out of me too.

I'm glad it's not just me!

Motorhead's version is better btw.

pm713 wrote:

Spot on about what? What was confirmed by an editor? The post makes no sense.

That the Horus Heresy was 100% manufactured to cull the Astartes. It was confirmed by the former lead editor of the HH series, Laurie Goulding.

Andykp wrote:

 lifeafter wrote:

Andykp wrote:
This is one of things I dislike most about the horus heresey now that black library have butchered the story. All the traitors are tragic figures with daddy issues. It just feels very trite and condescending. It’s all too good guys vs tragic good guys gone bad. And it makes chaos marines feel more like ordinary marines with spikes on.

What should the motivation have been?

What’s wrong with just simple greed, ambition, basic human failings, why does all have to be based on their daddy issues? They all just come across as simpering little children desperate for approval, it’s all very emo and juvenile. Much better that they had their own personalities and motives outside of their relationship with the emperor.

The thing is that "simple" human failings like greed, ambition etc are rarely just character traits one is born with (especially if taken to the sort of extremes that will lead to a galactic civil war!). Beings like this, in this universe would seem quite silly if they did not have at least some trauma, a degree of sociopathy and a whole host of other psychological issues (and I don't just mean the traitors here, this very muc trickles down to the marines as well). I don't exactly know what you mean by "emo" in this context but you appear to be stating that you think a trait of "I want power because I want power" would be preferable to any real character examination, if I am wrong please correct me! I'd find that particularly dull to be honest.

Having said that I don't think that the HH series examines this particularly well either and to be honest I would not expect it to, I rather expect the MO to any writer is not to get too heavy and they're also not going to be attracting the best of the best character writers anyway.

As for daddy issues, The HH was always unashamedly based on paradise lost and given the background of the setting these issues are something of a no brainer. Do they lean on it too heavily? Maybe but it all seems fairly plausible as far as anything in all of this does.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Spot on about what? What was confirmed by an editor? The post makes no sense.

That the Horus Heresy was 100% manufactured to cull the Astartes. It was confirmed by the former lead editor of the HH series, Laurie Goulding.

Problem is that kind of evidence by former staff is circumstantial at best, as intentions can change. Marc Gascoigne also claimed that Black Library would never ever have any story from an alien POV, yet here we are now with multiple Eldar trilogies, short stories, audio stories, a few Tau stories, etc...

It's sort of like a director's commentary on what they wanted to put in a movie but never actually did.

Iracundus wrote:


Problem is that kind of evidence by former staff is circumstantial at best, as intentions can change.

Sadly, it seems to be the road they have picked for the HH and the emperor. He laid out the roadmap mentioned ealier, to defend the decisions they made in "master of mankind" (e.g not giving two gaks about his "sons").

Iracundus wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Spot on about what? What was confirmed by an editor? The post makes no sense.

That the Horus Heresy was 100% manufactured to cull the Astartes. It was confirmed by the former lead editor of the HH series, Laurie Goulding.

Problem is that kind of evidence by former staff is circumstantial at best, as intentions can change. Marc Gascoigne also claimed that Black Library would never ever have any story from an alien POV, yet here we are now with multiple Eldar trilogies, short stories, audio stories, a few Tau stories, etc...

It's sort of like a director's commentary on what they wanted to put in a movie but never actually did.

Yeah, I'm suspicious of it as well.

As well I don't buy the idea that not caring about his sons = he was going to cull them with a civil war anyway. He definitely didn't care but intentionally starting a civil war is incredibly dumb and while flaws are a good thing for characters like the Emperor, stupidity is not. There are better ways of culling Marines.

pm713 wrote:
He definitely didn't care but intentionally starting a civil war is incredibly dumb and while flaws are a good thing for characters like the Emperor, stupidity is not. There are better ways of culling Marines.

When the webway project was finished, his 10000 custodes would have access to any planet in the imperium, practically instantly. There would no longer be a need for the legions - they would only be a liability. A civil war would wittle down both sides (of the legions), which would make for an easy clean up. Makes sense.

The above is according to Laurie goulding.

His forum has been shut down, but I might be able to pull out his original thoughts on the subject if anyone is interested.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
The primarchs and the legions were merely tools to him. He didn't care if they were corrupted by the purposes he created them to fill because when he was done with them he would destroy them just like the thunder warriors.

Not entirely true. At the outbreak of the Heresy, Corax discovered a Primarch "retirement villa" for him and his brothers when the Crusade was done. He may have realised he would need to eliminate some of the Primarchs once their flaws became obvious but the original plan was for them to enjoy a life after the Crusade. Many of them had skills not directly related to warfare and Magnus in particular was designed to keep the Golden Throne warm.

 Karhedron wrote:

Not entirely true. At the outbreak of the Heresy, Corax discovered a Primarch "retirement villa" for him and his brothers when the Crusade was done.

Is this from before of after "master of mankind" came out?

And can you provide an excerpt? Sounds pretty interesting.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
He definitely didn't care but intentionally starting a civil war is incredibly dumb and while flaws are a good thing for characters like the Emperor, stupidity is not. There are better ways of culling Marines.

When the webway project was finished, his 10000 custodes would have access to any planet in the imperium, practically instantly. There would no longer be a need for the legions - they would only be a liability. A civil war would wittle down both sides (of the legions), which would make for an easy clean up. Makes sense.

The above is according to Laurie goulding.

His forum has been shut down, but I might be able to pull out his original thoughts on the subject if anyone is interested.

A civil war would also cause massive devastation to countless planets, kill a lot of people, potentially lose a lot of valuable arceotech and re factionalise a lot of worlds. There's no justification for a civil war being the way to remove the Legions. The webway project doesn't make much sense either because there's no way the Custodes can protect every work from the kinds of threats Space Marines are flat out better against than Guardsmen.

If you want to argue that the Emperor was going to kill the Legions like he did the Thunder Warriors, fine I can believe that and it makes a varying degree of sense depending on which Legion. I cannot buy that a galactic civil war was the plan to do so.