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Hi all,

Imagine the following situation. An opponent charges me with one or more units into multiple units of mine. Some of my units have the fight first ability. Normally, my opponent and I would alternate activations for units that are scheduled to fight first (units that have charged, and fight first units). If I used the Counter Offensive stratagem after one of his units has fought, does play then return to one of my fight first units? In essence allowing me to have 2 units activate back to back before my opponents next activation?

Thanks

Counter Offensive basically lets you select a unit in between your opponent's charging units and that takes up your turn in the order.

It does not let you fight with 2 units in a row.

That is kind of what I suspected, but was hoping otherwise. Thank you.

JakeSiren wrote:
That is kind of what I suspected, but was hoping otherwise. Thank you.

I disagree. I believe you would indeed fight twice in a row. I'm not sure where Deathreaper is getting that opinion. In fact, GW has previously said that Counter Offensive let's a unit fight outside the fight order, not replacing something in it.

The only scenario i can see with you fighting with 2 units in a row is if he only charged with 1 unit and you have 2 in combat.

Audustum wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
That is kind of what I suspected, but was hoping otherwise. Thank you.

I disagree. I believe you would indeed fight twice in a row. I'm not sure where Deathreaper is getting that opinion. In fact, GW has previously said that Counter Offensive let's a unit fight outside the fight order, not replacing something in it.

Is there a citation for that?

Because if so, I must have missed it.

BRB update 1.5

Q: If a unit is affected by a rule that forces it to fight after all
other units able to fight have done so, such as the effects of the
Paroxysm psychic power, the Vexator Mask or the Armour of
Russ, can it still be affected by the Counter-Offensive Stratagem?
A: Yes, the Counter Offensive Stratagem allows a unit to
fight outside of the normal fight order (i.e. the Stratagem
does not give a unit the ability to fight first in the Fight
phase, it simply instructs you to pick a unit and fight with
it next).

 p5freak wrote:
BRB update 1.5

Q: If a unit is affected by a rule that forces it to fight after all
other units able to fight have done so, such as the effects of the
Paroxysm psychic power, the Vexator Mask or the Armour of
Russ, can it still be affected by the Counter-Offensive Stratagem?
A: Yes, the Counter Offensive Stratagem allows a unit to
fight outside of the normal fight order (i.e. the Stratagem
does not give a unit the ability to fight first in the Fight
phase, it simply instructs you to pick a unit and fight with
it next).

Awesome, that seems fairly cut an dry.

So if an enemy charges me, they select one of their units to fight, then I can use counter offensive to have my unit fight, then I can activate a unit with a fight first ability before they can select their 2nd unit?

No.

Counter offensve just lets you fight with a unit after an opponent goes.

After you swing, your opponent gets to pick a unit that is in the fight first group (charged, or special rule).


You don't get permission to break the alternation.

 p5freak wrote:
BRB update 1.5

Q: If a unit is affected by a rule that forces it to fight after all
other units able to fight have done so, such as the effects of the
Paroxysm psychic power, the Vexator Mask or the Armour of
Russ, can it still be affected by the Counter-Offensive Stratagem?
A: Yes, the Counter Offensive Stratagem allows a unit to
fight outside of the normal fight order (i.e. the Stratagem
does not give a unit the ability to fight first in the Fight
phase, it simply instructs you to pick a unit and fight with
it next).

That FAQ is about units that have a rule that forces it to fight after all other units able to fight have done so.

That does not say anything about over-riding the rules about alternating units to fight.

The counter offensive stratagem interrupts the normal fight order and allows you to fight with a unit right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. After your counter offensive unit fought the normal fight order continues. If you have a fight first ability that allows you to fight before chargers fight you can select a second unit to fight with, before your opponent selects a unit to fight with.

 p5freak wrote:
The counter offensive stratagem interrupts the normal fight order and allows you to fight with a unit right after an enemy unit that charged has fought.

So far so good. This is true.

After your counter offensive unit fought the normal fight order continues.

if you have a fight first ability that allows you to fight before chargers fight you can select a second unit to fight with, before your opponent selects a unit to fight with.

Citation needed, because counter offensive does not say this at all.

The normal fight order in this case is player A chargers fight, player B fight first units fight, player A chargers fight, player B first fight units fight, etc. The counter offensive interrupts that chain, and inserts one unit of player B to fight right after a unit of player A chargers fought. Then the chain continues. The FAQ has already been quoted. The counter offensive unit doesnt even need to have a fight first ability to interrupt the chain.

Player A chargers fight, <insert counter offensive unit>, player B fight first unit fights, player A chargers fight, player B fight first unit fights, etc.

I'm with Deathreaper here.

You haven't demonstrated that AFTER the unit you use the stratagem on has fought you go back to the order as if they hadn't fought. The citation doesnt say that at all, you're inferring it.

I have demonstrated the normal order, and the order with the stratagem. How would you and deathreaper resolve the stratagem in this situation ?

 p5freak wrote:
I have demonstrated the normal order, and the order with the stratagem. How would you and deathreaper resolve the stratagem in this situation ?

By not getting to fight with a second unit, because the rule saying that after you fight your opponent then gets to still applies.

You're assuming that fighting outside the normal order means completely ignoring the activation for the order, but that's not what it says. Its outside the normal order because it is brought to the front, but it still exists and it still requires you to pass over to your opponent afterwards.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I have demonstrated the normal order, and the order with the stratagem. How would you and deathreaper resolve the stratagem in this situation ?

By not getting to fight with a second unit, because the rule saying that after you fight your opponent then gets to still applies.

The stratagem would be useless, because a fight first unit would already fight right after a charged unit has fought. I dont think its meant to be that way. When you pay CP for a stratagem you have to get some benefit from it.

You get benefit by being able to fight with a model that doesnt have a fight first ability before most of the opponent's models that charged.

The stratagem is certainly not useless (for units that do not have fight first abilities), as it allows any unit, to fight next even if it would normally not get too.


You should never assume you get to fight with more than one unit in a row, unless you pull off multiple charges and your opponent has no CP to interrupt or units with fight first abilities.

 p5freak wrote:
The stratagem would be useless, because a fight first unit would already fight right after a charged unit has fought.

Not at all useless.

As you noted from the BRB update 1.5 "If a unit is affected by a rule that forces it to fight after all other units able to fight have done so"

So using it on a unit that is forced to fight "after all other units" lets you fight with that unit second instead of last.

So clearly not useless in most situations. Just useless if you try to use it on a unit that has the fight first ability, since they get to fight first anyway.

You still havent answered how the stratagem would be resolved if all units that were charged have a fight first ability.

 p5freak wrote:
You still havent answered how the stratagem would be resolved if all units that were charged have a fight first ability.

Just like the rules say, one unit fights, then the opponent picks a unit to fight, and back and forth until all units have fought.

Basically, there is no reason to use the strat in that situation as nothing changes with the strat, because your units all already have the ability of the strat. It would just be redundant at that point.
.

You are completely ignoring the FAQ which says that a unit fights outside of the normal fight order with it. It interrupts the chain, and allows a unit to fight in between. If none of my charged units have a fight first ability, then i agree with you, i would fight with one of my units, and then all units who have charged would fight. But if my charged units, except one, have a fight first ability, the stratagem would allow the not fight first unit to fight, and then the chain would continue, one of my fight first units would fight next.

We're not ignoring the FAQ, we're just not jumping to the inference you are.

The unit fights outside the normal order, yes. That doesn't mean that that doesn't have an effect on the order afterwards.

 p5freak wrote:
You are completely ignoring the FAQ which says that a unit fights outside of the normal fight order with it.

I am not ignoring the FAQ which says that a unit fights outside of the normal fight order.

What you are assuming, is that, that means that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, which is clearly not true as there is nothing saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order. So you need a citation saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, if you can not provide one, then they do count against the normal fight order.

It interrupts the chain, and allows a unit to fight in between.

That is true as long as there are multiple units that charged you, and you do not have any strike first units.

If none of my charged units have a fight first ability, then i agree with you, i would fight with one of my units, and then all units who have charged would fight. But if my charged units, except one, have a fight first ability, the stratagem would allow the not fight first unit to fight, and then the chain would continue, one of my fight first units would fight next.

You still need to obey the rules about alternating. So yea...

Think about it this way: If using it allowed you to fight twice, why would they not just let you use it after you swing with a unit to fight twice?

They expressly mention you can only use the stratagem after your opponent fights to prevent you from getting 2 combats one after the other.

So why are you trying to argue you can use it to get 2 combats one after the other?

 DeathReaper wrote:

What you are assuming, is that, that means that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, which is clearly not true as there is nothing saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order. So you need a citation saying that the unit chosen does not count against the normal fight order, if you can not provide one, then they do count against the normal fight order.

Can you provide a citation that the counter offensive unit counts towards the normal fight order ? The FAQ says the stratagem allows you to fight with a unit outside of the normal fight order.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You still need to obey the rules about alternating. So yea...

I do obey those rules.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Think about it this way: If using it allowed you to fight twice, why would they not just let you use it after you swing with a unit to fight twice?

Because stratagems allow you to do something you wouldnt normally be able to do. Like shooting twice with endless cacophony. Or fight/shoot when your model dies, with only in death does duty end.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

They expressly mention you can only use the stratagem after your opponent fights to prevent you from getting 2 combats one after the other.

Where does it say that the stratagem prevents you from getting 2 combats one after the other ?

Your whole premise is flawed though. You are assuming that 'out of order' means that the rules for alternating players are ignored. But that is entirely an assumption on your part that has no rules backing.

Fighting with it immediately is fighting outside the order. No part of the rule allows you to ignore the rule that says you must then allow the opponent to fight with a unit after it.

As it is a permissive ruleset, the onus is on you to provide s citation if you want to ignore a rule.

If the normal fight order is alternating activations, and Counter Offensive allows you to choose a unit to fight outside of the normal fight order (as per the FAQ), then I agree with p5 that it would interrupt the normal order and afterwards the order would resume as though you had not used the Stratagem. The FAQ grants permission to interrupt the normal order of the fight phase via the Counter Offensive Stratagem.

In other terms, if you have a pattern of tiles that are yellow, green, red, and you take the last red tile and place it after the first yellow one, you've changed the order of the beginning and end of the pattern, but the rest if the pattern remains unchanged.

 Stux wrote:
Your whole premise is flawed though. You are assuming that 'out of order' means that the rules for alternating players are ignored. But that is entirely an assumption on your part that has no rules backing.

Fighting with it immediately is fighting outside the order. No part of the rule allows you to ignore the rule that says you must then allow the opponent to fight with a unit after it.

As it is a permissive ruleset, the onus is on you to provide s citation if you want to ignore a rule.

The FAQ, which has already been quoted, gives me permission to pick a unit to fight with, outside of the normal fight order.