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As someone noted above, the fact that assault marines are terrible at assault is one example of the complete disconnect in game experience. Marines are not supposed to be glass cannons, but that's basically all 1W marines now.

If there's enough plasma on every table to pick up my marines like grots, it hardly matters what the background claims. What matters is what GW and TOs codify.

The tabletop scenario just doesn't establish the tactical advantages marines have in the lore. Blinding, gas and many obfuscation weapons have little or no effect on marines. In 2nd Ed, you could have gone ahead and loaded Guardsmen up with plasma. Then the marine player could have killed half of them outright with a virus grenade, blanketed the firing lanes with smoke, and shot through the smoke like it wasn't there using auto-senses. Guardsmen would be stuck waiting for the wind to clear the smoke, and would have to hope there weren't marines on overwatch waiting for them.

Because guardsmen don't have optic technology? Modern western armies of the 21st century do. Marines couldn't see through blind grenades in 2nd, either.

Even if this were the case, non-codified advantages aren't advantages. Just bolter porn.

Martel732 wrote:
Because guardsmen don't have optic technology? Modern western armies of the 21st century do. Marines couldn't see through blind grenades in 2nd, either.

Modern armies don't number in the billions, spread across an entire galaxy, get supplied by crazy people and have the distinct advantage of their lives having value while Guardsman are basically meat sacks with a gun.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because guardsmen don't have optic technology? Modern western armies of the 21st century do. Marines couldn't see through blind grenades in 2nd, either.

Modern armies don't number in the billions, spread across an entire galaxy, get supplied by crazy people and have the distinct advantage of their lives having value while Guardsman are basically meat sacks with a gun.

We also don't have entire planets dedicated to production, either. I know 40K tries to be edgy, but it's just silly at this point.

Martel732 wrote:
Because guardsmen don't have optic technology? Modern western armies of the 21st century do. Marines couldn't see through blind grenades in 2nd, either.

In 2nd Ed, Guard did not have optics. Marines could see through Smoke, but not Blind.

Martel732 wrote:
Even if this were the case, non-codified advantages aren't advantages. Just bolter porn.

Are we trying to reconcile why so few Marines can have an in-universe effect or are we just complaining again?

"Are we trying to reconcile why so few Marines can have an in-universe effect or are we just complaining again?"

They can't. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter what the bolter porn says.

Guard had targeters in 2nd. Sounds like optics to me. Just because they couldn't see through smoke doesn't mean they shouldn't have been able to.

It's not my fault that GW wrote absurd justifications to make their zealot warrior monks relevant in a galactic conflict. Marines were much better as space cops.

Martel732 wrote:
"Are we trying to reconcile why so few Marines can have an in-universe effect or are we just complaining again?"

They can't. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter what the bolter porn says.

Guard had targeters in 2nd. Sounds like optics to me. Just because they couldn't see through smoke doesn't mean they shouldn't have been able to.

It's not my fault that GW wrote absurd justifications to make their zealot warrior monks relevant in a galactic conflict. Marines were much better as space cops.

Guard did not have Targeters on personal equipment in 2nd Ed. You could give one model a Targeter by way of a Wargear Card. Otherwise their only Targeters were on tanks. A Targeter was still different than auto-senses or other optical device.

I think they should have had such equipment given the technology we have today in 2020. I can only suspend disbelief so far. I realize others can do it more.

Martel732 wrote:
I think they should have had such equipment given the technology we have today in 2020. I can only suspend disbelief so far. I realize others can do it more.

Actually, looking it up they did have optical sensors on their troops, so you can count that advantage out. However they were still vulnerable to virus, toxin, scare/hallucinogen, and photon flashed. Orks and Tyranids were the majore factions who could not see through Smoke.

I don't think this makes up for being outnumbered quadrillions to a million. Nor the prevalence of weapons that penetrate power armor easily.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think this makes up for being outnumbered quadrillions to a million. Nor the prevalence of weapons that penetrate power armor easily.

Well, most of the time they're on the same side, and when they're not Marines have orbital superiority and start bombing. Numerical superiority takes a back seat to theater control and the willingness to use weapons of mass destruction.

So, the IG doesn't have a navy?

Martel732 wrote:
So, the IG doesn't have a navy?

No, they don't. The Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy were separated after the Heresy as one of the steps to prevent too much power being concentrated in one force. The guard is reliant on the navy for all transport.

Space marines, however, have their own warships, specifically designed for planetary assault. Part of that is the ability for mass orbital bombardment. Marine ships specifically give up some ship to ship firepower for the ability to pound planetary forces and assets into glass in order to make way for their ground forces.

So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

As far as realism goes, about the only thing in tabletop 40k I have trouble hand-waving away as a gaming abstraction, is tanks not being able to shoot when touched by infantry (especially the chaff infantry).

Quasistellar wrote:
As far as realism goes, about the only thing in tabletop 40k I have trouble hand-waving away as a gaming abstraction, is tanks not being able to shoot when touched by infantry (especially the chaff infantry).

You are very generous.

Martel732 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
As far as realism goes, about the only thing in tabletop 40k I have trouble hand-waving away as a gaming abstraction, is tanks not being able to shoot when touched by infantry (especially the chaff infantry).

You are very generous.

Indeed, I am, but I do understand that--on the tabletop--concessions have to be made for gameplay.

I think the fiction should be written to more closely match the tabletop.

Martel732 wrote:
So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

Humans and servitors. 20+ years a Space Marine player and you don't know this?

Martel732 wrote:
So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

Yes, chapter serfs. Remember that much of the work of the crew is basically pure grunt work. You wouldn't expect astartes to drag torpedoes into place. And obviously repair and maintenance would be handled by mechanicus personnel.

And the legions use slaves for crew, before you throw that one in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

Humans and servitors. 20+ years a Space Marine player and you don't know this?

I think he's just being obtuse on purpose.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

Humans and servitors. 20+ years a Space Marine player and you don't know this?

I think he's just being obtuse on purpose.

For what purpose even, to merely excuse griping?

Martel732 wrote:
I think the fiction should be written to more closely match the tabletop.

You mean every so often the battle ends because "Fluffy the Orange Godbeast space cat" descends upon the battle and chooses to nap upon the main field of war.

 Overread wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the fiction should be written to more closely match the tabletop.

You mean every so often the battle ends because "Fluffy the Orange Godbeast space cat" descends upon the battle and chooses to nap upon the main field of war.

I'd love that myself. That or for tanks from incredibly advanced aliens be able to shoot accurately and move.

 Overread wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the fiction should be written to more closely match the tabletop.

You mean every so often the battle ends because "Fluffy the Orange Godbeast space cat" descends upon the battle and chooses to nap upon the main field of war.

Better than their current fiction lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So in a chapter of 1000 marines, who is crewing these ships? Humans?

Humans and servitors. 20+ years a Space Marine player and you don't know this?

I think he's just being obtuse on purpose.

For what purpose even, to merely excuse griping?

Yeah, I forgot that. I don't get into the lore much. I forgot the marines had slaves.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I forgot that. I don't get into the lore much. I forgot the marines had slaves.

*Ahem* "Chapter Serfs" and "Servants" please. Only Chaos Space Marines have slaves.

They're slaves. The space marines all deserve to die in a fire. They're primarily a power fantasy. At least that is reflective of reality.

 Nurglitch wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I forgot that. I don't get into the lore much. I forgot the marines had slaves.

*Ahem* "Chapter Serfs" and "Servants" please. Only Chaos Space Marines have slaves.

You are aware that the difference between a serf and a slave is pretty much spelling? In fact the etymology of the word comes from the Latin word "servus" which translate to "slave" in modern english and "serf" in middle french.

epronovost wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I forgot that. I don't get into the lore much. I forgot the marines had slaves.

*Ahem* "Chapter Serfs" and "Servants" please. Only Chaos Space Marines have slaves.

You are aware that the difference between a serf and a slave is pretty much spelling? In fact the etymology of the word comes from the Latin word "servus" which translate to "slave" in modern english and "serf" in middle french.

But there is a significant difference between them in-universe. Serfs have a pretty privileged position, are well treated and get above average quality of life. Slaves can be killed whenever a Chaos Marine has a tantrum.

I guarantee the same goes for serfs. Or would go for serfs, regardless of the bolter porn.