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yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah historically Eldar has been a problematic army. But that's even more reason to finally fix it in 9th instead of just making it problematic in some new way.
I can't speak for others, but what I want is not really for Eldar to be more powerful in a competitive sense, I want them to feel like an elite army of a proud, powerful, but dying race for which every one of their number matters and every death is a tragedy, not a bunch of bargain-basement weaklings who get dunked on my primaris intercessors but win through cheesy abuse of a handful of very powerful units.
And I want to be able to place literally any combination of my orks on the table and be close to as powerful as Eldar consistently have been each edition. I don't mean "any combination" as in a random hodge podge, I mean ANY kind of option which lets me be strong and competitive.
I want the same for Nids, Crons, or several other xenos races with players who would kill to have a a single edition half as powerful as Eldar consistently are.
Eldar aren't fine, but they're not in desperate need. Complaining about how they need to be reworked to live up to their lore is spitting in the face of anyone who plays legitimately weak armies. The army may not function the way you like but it's still counted amongst the "player character" factions. I legitimately hope Eldar find themselves tuned like one of the NPC factions this coming edition, so that Eldar players can have a taste of what others have been dealing with for the better part of a decade.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems an awful bitter attitude to take. "I hope they get dragged down to our level" doesn't seem very constructive compared to "I hope my faction could get some improvements too."
To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Man, sure is a shame those Primaris forgot to bring ammo for their bolters. Keep picking those cherries...
Right, the same way this forum claims how awesome Intercessors are with their 30" guns, but then gushes over their "awesome melee profile". Which is it? Are they shooting at range or are they in melee?
I already mentioned the difficulties of getting to combat as a barrier.
Yes, that's a little schizophrenic, but you said:
I understand that people want more elite units, but I find your assertion on Banshees to be incorrect. At least in the sense of efficiency of points, but in many cases also in raw wounds delivered.
and
Banshees are better at killing IS than Primaris
And showed data that did not leverage the full capabilities of Primaris. So I don't care how close or far away you are, it's not true to say "Banshees are better at killing IS than Primaris". Additionally, the point that Scotsman has been making throughout this thread and in others is that the Banshee is a specialist and the Intercessor is a generalist, and yet the two are quite close when competing in the specialty area of the Banshee.
Galas wrote: I have as much symphaty for Eldar players (A codex that post PA, and theirs was the first one has a TON of viable builds and units) as I have for Tau players complaining about how our codex sucks (When theres a ton of good sinergy and good units there) and then not leaving home without 3 riptides.
The reality is that Eldars can have nearly any kind of lists with the units of their army and a minimun of sinergy compete in a semi-competitive scene agaisnt nearly every other army of the game with the exception of the most broken lists. And then, they can do a ton of high competitive armies to face the most competitive armies out there and win. So what exactly do they want? To have all of their medium-competitive armies go toe to toe with the most broken stuff out there?
People have been telling you over and over again in this thread what they want, and it isn't to be more powerful and roflstomp everybody. There are literally dozens of posts in this thread and I don't think a single one is "eldar are underpowered make them more powerful so I can win every game!" There's not much point to having a discussion if one side isn't reading what the other side is posting, is there?
People don't want eldar elite choices to be bargain-basement 9 point garbage. They hate the EC/MS spam lists as much as you do, more likely than not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: To be fair, I'd like to see EVERY army toned down, by varying amounts. Mostly in lethality.
The game's too damn killy right now.
Sure, me too. I'd rather see lethality nerfed to the point where striking scorpions aren't a joke with their current profile, but we all know that primaris are here to stay and that isn't gonna happen, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 17:50:00
I can emphatize with people not wanting eldar specialists to cost 9-13 points and be cheap units and feel elite.
Space Marines wanted it also for odd 20 years and they at last got their wished granted (From a monkey pawn). We know what needs to happen for a change like that to happen: A fantasy-aos conversion or being completely redone.
Actually I have found AoS rules writers much more open to do changes in stat lines (For example some kharadron units or saurus temple guards going from 1 wound to 2 wounds) than 40k ones. In 40k, they are much more constrained by tradition. Not something I believe is good but thats how they design their rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 17:52:52
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Insectum7 wrote: @Daedelus: Unless you are Primaris, where Peter and Paul rob Eldar.
See my post above about how despite being a CC specialist of similar points to the bikes, she barely makes it out alive despite the scenario being skewed in her favor by not giving the bikes the capability to shoot.
She blocks O/W and is a character. There are few scenarios where the bikes will shoot her. Kiting is not likely - and these bikes are not pointed to shoot.
Is Jain Zar pointed to shoot? The Bikes bring (I think) 16 S4 -1 shots at 30". 8 Intercessors worth of shooting on a much more mobile platform. Are we just waving that away?
If the bikes "are not pointed to shoot" I guess that's just free then.
Insectum7 wrote: @Daedelus: Unless you are Primaris, where Peter and Paul rob Eldar.
See my post above about how despite being a CC specialist of similar points to the bikes, she barely makes it out alive despite the scenario being skewed in her favor by not giving the bikes the capability to shoot.
She blocks O/W and is a character. There are few scenarios where the bikes will shoot her. Kiting is not likely - and these bikes are not pointed to shoot.
Is Jain Zar pointed to shoot? The Bikes bring (I think) 16 S4 -1 shots at 30". 8 Intercessors worth of shooting on a much more mobile platform. Are we just waving that away?
If the bikes "are not pointed to shoot" I guess that's just free then.
JZ is not pointed to shoot, but she shoots ok and does melee really well.
Two bolt rifles, so 12 @ 30" and then 3 pistols if I understand it correctly. The point being if you were concerned about having a platform that shoot well for the cost - the bikes aren't it. 6 to 7 Intercessors shoot just as well for very likely much less points and well as easily being in cover. Outriders are being dramatically over sold by the community who wants to throw a fit about them having more attacks than a character while NOT ignoring the source of attacks for bikes, but then ignoring the source of abilities for aspect warriors. It's totally disingenuous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 17:58:55
They wreck at range, and in melee. A generalist muhreen needs to be better at everything, cos my Black Library lore says so.
But the specialist melee unit does better than the generalist marine. People just don't like melee.
It does better when you completely leave out the guns!! Let's evaluate -- including just shooting, the Intercessors do vastly better. Including shooting and melee, the Intercessors do vastly better. Only when ignoring shooting do the Banshees eke out higher performance. And not by a lot, either! This has absolutely nothing to do with "not liking melee", whatever the feth that means.
And so JZ "shoots okay" and that's worth mentioning, but the Intercessors and Outriders didn't bring their guns to town. Boy.
Why is it always like this on these threads? Why can't people look at evidence and say, "hey, that person's got a point"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:01:02
And showed data that did not leverage the full capabilities of Primaris. So I don't care how close or far away you are, it's not true to say "Banshees are better at killing IS than Primaris". Additionally, the point that Scotsman has been making throughout this thread and in others is that the Banshee is a specialist and the Intercessor is a generalist, and yet the two are quite close when competing in the specialty area of the Banshee.
I think you're smart enough to understand the point I was making. Primaris are good at melee, but not as good as Banshees. Banshees are a melee specialist. People pretend that Primaris are getting full use of the 30" guns, but simultaneously also the melee profile - it doesn't work that way.
And showed data that did not leverage the full capabilities of Primaris. So I don't care how close or far away you are, it's not true to say "Banshees are better at killing IS than Primaris". Additionally, the point that Scotsman has been making throughout this thread and in others is that the Banshee is a specialist and the Intercessor is a generalist, and yet the two are quite close when competing in the specialty area of the Banshee.
I think you're smart enough to understand the point I was making. Primaris are good at melee, but not as good as Banshees. Banshees are a melee specialist. People pretend that Primaris are getting full use of the 30" guns, but simultaneously also the melee profile - it doesn't work that way.
Shoot something far away (a squad on an objective) then charge something nearby (Banshees who failed their charge).
It won't ALWAYS happen, but it's hardly impossible to use both.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I agree with the OP. 4th Ed. Eldar was the first codex I picked up, and while I haven't played them much, I've never found them to feel right. Part of why I haven't used them more, I think.
Eldar should be an army of unitaskers working in together as an orchestra. But they don't.
Most aspects are and have been bad since 4th.
Banshees should be terrifying for any infantry to engage with in melee.
Hawks and Spiders should be guerrillas. GW has consistently failed to implement "fast moving attack unit" correctly.
Scorpions........ hoo boy. Ambush predators? Not today.
Fire Dragons have been suicide anti-tank units when they should really be unleashing melta hell on all armor, and terminators, carnifexes, etc. IE, not dying after making one tank go boom.
8th is the first time I've heard of people playing Shining Spears.
Dire Avengers are supposed to be deadly shooters and swordspeople who can hold the line, countercharge, or dance around the battlefield baiting the enemy into disadvantageous positions- not more expensive Guardians.
Vypers are worse land speeders.
Jetbikes are either OP as fast scatter spam, or just bad.
6th ed. decided that Warlocks should be subject to perils, instead of their powers always being "on."
Wraith units need to be viable as a supplement for Guardians, Aspects, etc., just as much as shining in a Wraith Host.
Eldar identity suffers greatly from IGOUGO, the phases, the lack of a proper morale and suppression mechanic, and GW's obsession with keeping mechanics around "just because."
Eldar are precisely why 40k needs an Evasion stat to compare BS with. They should be tricky to hit, but lower armor and wounds. An agile, dynamic fighting force. Aspects need special actions that are not merely "move-shoot, shoot twice, etc. etc." nonsense. Vypers, Jetbikes, Hawks, Spiders, and Spears- maybe everything that hovers or flies- should have a Hit-and-Run rule. Something like:
HIT-AND-RUN
A Hit-and-Run is a Double Move. When a unit makes a Hit-And-Run, it either A) makes its normal shooting attack against an enemy unit within range and Line of Sight from any point it travels during its move or B) moves over an enemy unit, and makes its melee attacks against the unit. Every model in a unit that makes a Hit-and-Rin this way must end its move 1" or more away from the target unit.
Hawks could be great at suppressing the enemy with their grenade packs and lasblasters.
Spiders gotta get a Hit-and-Run rule so they can properly teleport in, wreak havoc, and poof away. Extra suppression on the death spinners, too.
Reapers would fit the army better if they were more mobile- they're still Eldar, after all.
Banshees need to be fast- double moves for "run" and charging would help a lot here- high Evasion, and with higher strength on their blades, or some special rule that negates their physical weakness.
Scorpions need way more attacks, and more ways to interact with terrain.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:28:04
They wreck at range, and in melee. A generalist muhreen needs to be better at everything, cos my Black Library lore says so.
But the specialist melee unit does better than the generalist marine. People just don't like melee.
It does better when you completely leave out the guns!! Let's evaluate -- including just shooting, the Intercessors do vastly better. Including shooting and melee, the Intercessors do vastly better. Only when ignoring shooting do the Banshees eke out higher performance. And not by a lot, either! This has absolutely nothing to do with "not liking melee", whatever the feth that means.
And so JZ "shoots okay" and that's worth mentioning, but the Intercessors and Outriders didn't bring their guns to town. Boy.
Why is it always like this on these threads? Why can't people look at evidence and say, "hey, that person's got a point"?
And so you think that Banshees should gain the equivalent melee damage of the combined force of Primaris shooting and melee for the same cost. Is that what would make you happy here? Because that completely ignores any semblance of balance.
And the bikes DON'T get to shoot JZ, because 1) she's a character and 2) she ignores O/W. But otherwise, yes, you get 12 30" S4 AP1 shots against me. Scary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Shoot something far away (a squad on an objective) then charge something nearby (Banshees who failed their charge).
It won't ALWAYS happen, but it's hardly impossible to use both.
Yes, agreed, but I'm not in the business of simulating entire battles. Banshees have the legs to pick their combats. If they could +3 out of webway they'd be on the table all of the time, but they can't so they don't show up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:09:47
I don’t care about the rules all that much. I’m just hoping Eldar get a range refresh in 10th like necrons are about to for 9th. New guardians, replace the finecast stuff and some new stuff on top please.
11+3d6 means that, on average, they'd fail a charge from DZ to DZ. Meaning they eat at least one round of shooting.
6 Intercessors (102 points) versus 9 Banshees (one an Exarch with Executioner, 102 points) kill 2-3 Banshees each turn without buffs.
Add in Chapter Master and Lt. Buffs, and that increases to more than 4 Banshees a turn. And they can get buffed even more, with some Chapter Tactics, Chaplain Litanies, or even it just being T2 and them getting the Doctrine up.
Edit: Anydice says that they have just over a 1/4 chance (25.93%) to make a 24" charge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:27:43
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
SirGrotzalot wrote: I don’t care about the rules all that much. I’m just hoping Eldar get a range refresh in 10th like necrons are about to for 9th. New guardians, replace the finecast stuff and some new stuff on top please.
No more Citadel FailcastTM would be great, but I'm concerned they'll screw 'em up- new Eldrad, Jain and Banshees were so close........
Man, sure is a shame those Primaris forgot to bring ammo for their bolters. Keep picking those cherries...
Right, the same way this forum claims how awesome Intercessors are with their 30" guns, but then gushes over their "awesome melee profile". Which is it? Are they shooting at range or are they in melee?
I already mentioned the difficulties of getting to combat as a barrier.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The interesting thing about Eldar is most of their models have actually held up really well despite being so old. The biggest problem is, ironically, the ones they moved over to Failcast.
The plastic kits are fine, I don't see any reason they need to change. Just get rid of all the failcast and move anything that's still metal over to plastic and that's all that needs to be done.
It's the rules that are the issue. We've now got this janky situation where EC/MS cheese makes single entities extremely powerful in a very unsatisfying and gimmicky way, and then the rest of the codex's power comes from a very small number of units that combine powerfully with psychic buffs.
Martel732 wrote: I think it would be better to raise wound counts to get some granularity in the game.
This.
It does feel that GW is learning a bit more about vertical granularity in survivability and giving some units higher wounds. This is seen in AoS, but now also with the new Primaris range and the new Ad Mech birdmen.
Specialists should in general have a 2W rule or 1W higher than their generic units. Stock infantry like Scouts, Guardians and generic troops should have 1W, but anything more specialized should have 2W to indicate their elite value. So all Aspect Warriors should have 2W as a rule.
Banshee masks should prevent the charged unit from fighting back at all and they should have a +1 str -3 AP D3 damage power sword. As well as the second wound. So now you have to shoot them or go charge them yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:44:55
They wreck at range, and in melee. A generalist muhreen needs to be better at everything, cos my Black Library lore says so.
But the specialist melee unit does better than the generalist marine. People just don't like melee.
It does better when you completely leave out the guns!! Let's evaluate -- including just shooting, the Intercessors do vastly better. Including shooting and melee, the Intercessors do vastly better. Only when ignoring shooting do the Banshees eke out higher performance. And not by a lot, either! This has absolutely nothing to do with "not liking melee", whatever the feth that means.
And so JZ "shoots okay" and that's worth mentioning, but the Intercessors and Outriders didn't bring their guns to town. Boy.
Why is it always like this on these threads? Why can't people look at evidence and say, "hey, that person's got a point"?
And so you think that Banshees should gain the equivalent melee damage of the combined force of Primaris shooting and melee for the same cost. Is that what would make you happy here? Because that completely ignores any semblance of balance.
And the bikes DON'T get to shoot JZ, because 1) she's a character and 2) she ignores O/W. But otherwise, yes, you get 12 30" S4 AP1 shots against me. Scary.
The original math you did looks like 5 bikes, so 20 shots. An entire Intercessor squads worth. We don't know what the bikers will actually cost in points, but they have the same statline as Attack Bikes, and those are 25 base cost. 4ish for similar cost seems likely to me.
Jain Zar gets 4 attacks (along with a goofy rule your opponent can play around that might give you a few more in weird circumstances). Primaris bikers get 6. Primaris has become the punch line to every joke in 40k.
*sigh* We're really going to be comparing apples to oranges all edition, aren't we?
The only way this is apples to oranges is in the opposite direction. A melee phoenix lord should be vastly better in melee than a stock primaris biker. She is better, but not by nearly as much as she should be. A white scars stock primaris biker on turn 3 and beyond puts out 6 S4 -2AP 2 damage hits, probably with rerolls. A BA one has 7 attacks at +1 to wound.
It's just stupid. Eldar in general have been hugely left behind by the inflation in the number of attacks most other factions *cough* SPACE MARINES *cough* get. Primaris bikers are the worst, but they're not the only example.
This is just bad game design. The greatest warriors of a race that were ruling the galaxy when humans were still poking each other with sharpened sticks should not get totally dunked on by the Imperium in the way they are.
Turn. Three.
Let's make an assumption that they're 40 points each. JZ is 115. 3 to 1. gak, no. Let's do 5 bikes.
They charge. JZ fights first.
4 * .833 * .888 * .833 * 2 = 4.9 -- one bike dead; 4 remain
24 * .5 * .5 * .333 = 2 wounds to JZ
another bike dead; 3 remain
18 * .5 * .5 * .333 = 1.5 wounds to JZ
another bike dead; 2 remain
12 * .5 * .5 * .333 = 1 wound to JZ
another bike dead; 1 remains
6 * .5 * .5 * .333 = 0.5 wounds to JZ
JZ is sitting on one wound and killed five Outriders - and I didn't even make an expectation for damage to overflow onto other models between each round.
So what do you want? You want JZ to be able to kill the world? Sure, your White Scars are scary. So are Dark Reapers shooting them with Doom. You want rerolls for the bikes? JZ gets Protect or the bikes get Enervate. You want to kick those bikes up with WS doc? Then she doesn't need to fight 5 to 1. You want her to be an uber killy badass? Then double her points and get her more rules.
Man, sure is a shame those Primaris forgot to bring ammo for their bolters. Keep picking those cherries...
Right, the same way this forum claims how awesome Intercessors are with their 30" guns, but then gushes over their "awesome melee profile". Which is it? Are they shooting at range or are they in melee?
I already mentioned the difficulties of getting to combat as a barrier.
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:44:40
SirGrotzalot wrote: I don’t care about the rules all that much. I’m just hoping Eldar get a range refresh in 10th like necrons are about to for 9th. New guardians, replace the finecast stuff and some new stuff on top please.
Why wish for it in 10th instead of later in 9th?
All Xenos need updates, and all Xenos should get them in 9th. GSC and Orks got more new kits than any other Xeno faction during 8th, so they are probably the ones that will wait the longest. But there is no reason at all that all Xenos factions can't or shouldn't get meaningful updates to both rules and model ranges this edition.
I was intially very angry when GW announced 9th, but I've come around because Codex updates can do more good for Xenos than campaigned based drip releases. If there isn't a wave of new dexes, GW isn't getting as much mileage out of the new edition as it could. Print the data sheets for new Marine stuff in WD- as they kings of current meta, they don't need a codex overhaul. They should be content to let other factions play catch up for a while.
(I know that won't happen, BTW. It should, but it won't; the world will literally stop turning if marines don't get at least one new thing per quarter, because Marines! But one can hope.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/23 18:46:59
Insectum7 wrote: The original math you did looks like 5 bikes, so 20 shots. An entire Intercessor squads worth. We don't know what the bikers will actually cost in points, but they have the same statline as Attack Bikes, and those are 25 base cost. 4ish for similar cost seems likely to me.
Yes, I mentally switch between the reference unit and a min sized unit when talking in general terms. Sorry that I don't make that clear.
Attack Bike has downgraded bolters, half the attacks, no CS, and no heavy bolt pistol. Taking the Intercessor point rise applied to the Attack Bike they become 30 points. These guys will be 35 to 40 if that holds true.
yukishiro1 wrote: The interesting thing about Eldar is most of their models have actually held up really well despite being so old. The biggest problem is, ironically, the ones they moved over to Failcast.
The plastic kits are fine, I don't see any reason they need to change. Just get rid of all the failcast and move anything that's still metal over to plastic and that's all that needs to be done.
It's the rules that are the issue. We've now got this janky situation where EC/MS cheese makes single entities extremely powerful in a very unsatisfying and gimmicky way, and then the rest of the codex's power comes from a very small number of units that combine powerfully with psychic buffs.
This. The sculpts are still great, Failcast is just bad. I'd prefer characters in metal, though.
Rules that make aspects suck, and Eldar to never feel like Eldar.............
yukishiro1 wrote: The interesting thing about Eldar is most of their models have actually held up really well despite being so old. The biggest problem is, ironically, the ones they moved over to Failcast.
The plastic kits are fine, I don't see any reason they need to change. Just get rid of all the failcast and move anything that's still metal over to plastic and that's all that needs to be done.
It's the rules that are the issue. We've now got this janky situation where EC/MS cheese makes single entities extremely powerful in a very unsatisfying and gimmicky way, and then the rest of the codex's power comes from a very small number of units that combine powerfully with psychic buffs.
I'd prefer better plastic kits honestly. But that issue stems from GW's inability to design things like the Triskele. Should it replace the pistol as a range weapon upgrade? Nah, let's replace the sword so it doesn't work. Other things like guardians are just a bit eh. They're all samey and bland compared to other things imo.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Yeah, i hate the guardian sculpts. They've got everything I despise about old plastic - huge blatant mold lines, awful posing, zero customization, and wonky proportions. I'd have way more eldar if Guardians were not a basis of their design.The vyper and war walker also look like ass.
The basic tanks are fine, as are wraithlords.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, i hate the guardian sculpts. They've got everything I despise about old plastic - huge blatant mold lines, awful posing, zero customization, and wonky proportions. I'd have way more eldar if Guardians were not a basis of their design.The vyper and war walker also look like ass.
The basic tanks are fine, as are wraithlords.
Woah, whoah, woah, vypers are beautiful! The kit could use some retooling, but those sculpts....*chef's kiss*........
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, i hate the guardian sculpts. They've got everything I despise about old plastic - huge blatant mold lines, awful posing, zero customization, and wonky proportions. I'd have way more eldar if Guardians were not a basis of their design.The vyper and war walker also look like ass.
The basic tanks are fine, as are wraithlords.
Woah, whoah, woah, vypers are beautiful! The kit could use some retooling, but those sculpts....*chef's kiss*........
Despise everything about the gun. The basic shape of the craft is fine, but the gunner is just awful IMO.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The point of the complaints about intercessors in melee is that they CONTINUE to kick your fething ass even if you get them in melee, even though their preferred range of engagement is 30 fething inches...
Except that they don't when you have an equal distribution of force. The problem you experience is putting 100 points into melee with a unit almost twice that and expecting to come out heroes. That will never go well. But even *if* you do that the Primaris kill 3 or 4 models to the 2 to 3 you would kill. Does that really qualify as "kicking their fething ass"?
