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So, these days it seems like many factions have these shenanigans going on via auras,stratagems, psychics, litanies etc: "Reroll all failed hit rolls", "Reroll all failed wound rolls" and my favourite: "Reroll all failed hit rolls AND wound rolls". Like wtf? Its not even just reroll ones, it's all?

I'm tired at seeing people shooting me or attacking me in melee and failing like 75% of their attacks, only to reroll them and failing like 10%. I mean ok fine if you have a BS or WS of 5 or higher, but on troops with BS or WS 4? or even 3? sometimes with str8 or higher weapons where the most you need to wound is 4+?

Personally I prefer it to the older versions where elite or masters of h-t-h combat failed rolls on a 1 or 2 way way too often.

Some people like it and I know some who hate ALL re-rolls.

I do think there are too many options for re-rolls in the game these days (which, when combined with things like characters virtually always hitting on a 2+ & the lack of a WS table, can be a bit irritating). It doesn't generally bother me much but some armies really take it to extremes though

I remember seeing the eldar autarch's reroll 1s to hit aura when the 8th indexes launched and thinking that was nice game design. A not too powerful implementation of aura mechanics, I liked the idea of all factions having these kind of buff auras.

Then, unfortunately, I learned marines got full rerolls to hit and rerolls of 1 to wound. I consider that too much, especially given an already high ballistic skill (and even easy access to bs2+). It's gotten to the point where I zone out when my opponent rolls their hits; there's just no tension with those kind of odds. I liked previous editions without these rerolls better tbh.

My only real problem with rerolls is when its more than an unmodified roll of a 1.

then again, I am not a fan of the chapter master stratagem for that reason, and I'm not sure how much I really like having the differential between rerolling hit rolls and failed hit rolls, id prefer that they are consolidated, but if the intent in design is to have them be a bit different to recognize the ability of the leader of whatnot, then I suppose it's fine.

I’ve gone completely off rerolls myself too. They just slow the game way down and wreck all the tension. Maybe it’s just me but I feel like they should be reserved for very specific, very important one off things. Can’t explain exactly what though. Charges and leadership tests maybe?

So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

 Mr Morden wrote:
So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

The marine version is a problem because of the sheer amount of rerolling. Eldar powers like Guide and Doom aren't an issue because at most you're affecting a single squad.

Custodes rerolls really bug me too. 2+ rerolling ones is just fishing for the 1/36 chance you miss, which is a waste of time.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

Yes and no.

Marines exasperate the problem both a) as a balance problem and b) as an exemplary benefit of "cannot-no-longer-whiff" phenomenon.

For a), Marine re-rolls are way to cheap, easily available and efficient compared to other armies. Chapter Master vs. Grand Harlequin, etc.., etc. but that's ultimately a problem that could, in theory, be fixed with points and/or adjusting non-Marine re-rolls.

For b), it's ultimately detrimental to the game if variance from the dice is essentially removed, both by re-rolls, capping modifiers, removing penalties for moving or degrading, etc.., etc.. A tactically (not strategically) interesting game lives from the ebb and flow of the unpredictable. A unit overperforming on the left flank, another underperforming on the right flank, etc.. variability creates un-expected situations on the table / battlefield that clever players can adept to and exploit for an ultimately dynamic and ever-changing game.

The more re-rolls are added and modifiers capped/removed, the more ever unit will always perform at a given, high level. The bell-curve of the variance of results you can expect from a given unit is just very, very steep and the statistical outliers of, say, an Aggressor Unit with Chapter Master and Lieutentant re-rolls simply doing a whiff on a unit of Guardsmen so astronomically small, that it's basically negligible. Thus, one might as well remove the dice-roll and simply play with units auto-removing units if committed chess-style or something along those lines.

That also has some appeal, but it usually requires symmetrical (mirror-match) armies to be interesting. Having asymmetrical armies quickly results in a 3-hour-per-round rock-paper-scissors decided at the list-building stage once you remove the in-game tactical variance of un-expected events/decision points through less reliable dice, Maelstrom cards, or something along those lines to thereby distinguish more skilled from less skilled opponents.

Re-rolls should only affect one unit at a time, you have to chose every turn.

Stratagems should be one use only.

It's been too much, since almost the beginning. 8th codified the idea that a single reroll for one model on one type of die roll was equal to 1 CP. 9th kept it, and added more limits on what could be rerolled

Handing them out passively inherently breaks that. There isn't any way around it.

I'm sick to death of rerolls. They slow down the game but you're stupid to not use them.

The last game of 8th I got in I got a double shot of aggressors in my chapter master aura off on some necron lychguard (only real target available). it took FOREVER, and I killed hardly any anyway.

Take me back to when rerolls didn't exist please.

I don't mind rerolls as a concept, I just think it's been handed out too damn easily. Reroll all hits as an aura should not exist, a commander that has it should only have it apply to him and be reroll 1s for others within x range. I'd also like to see a cap to dice rolls too, as it's often ridiculous. Aggressors should not fire twice, it's obnoxious and time consuming. Who thought rolling 114 dice on average is fun for someone...then throw rerolls into the mix. I don't think you should ever have to roll more than 30 dice for a single action....ever. If you need more rolls than that to achieve a result, another mechanic should be used instead (don't want to alienate certain factions like Orks for example), but maybe the new engagement range of melee will stop some of the outrageous rolls in melee.
On the topic of Aggressors, the frag launchers should have a different effect too, not adding more dice rolls to cause damage. Such a dumb unit gamewise (and I have 6 in my ravenguard and 3 in my Dark Angels). I'd be happy for the boltstorm gauntlets to be Assault 5 (therefore cap at 30 shots for a full unit) and have the frag launcher have a different effect.
I won't hold my breath though.

Agree. They should change the aggressor rules to "Inflict double damage and the damage can spread to other models". Same effect, but without doubling the dices rolled.

GW thinks rolling more dice = more fun.

Stratagems were a good idea but terrible execution, 8th of course had the problem with not all armies had the same level of cp (fixed in 9th) which lead to strats being horribly unbalanced when someone was a scum and running loyal 32 and its varients and the other person wasnt.

on top of that a good chunk of strats were unit abilities that were stripped away and became strats, weakining said unit and units had to be pointed around assumign they had the start on them at all times (slaanesh oblits for example) terrible execution.

If strategems were something like pick X strats before the battle and thats it, you get to use each strat once per battle but they were game changers would have been far better.

its still a terrible idea when starts such as shoot twice, fight twice exist as the abusing units will get adjusted in points to assume they are always doing it while punishing people who dont abuse them that way, or the cp cost becomes so high its unusable.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

Yes, it is. Its not only the chapter master, they also have a lieutenant, and an ancient. First they shoot you and reroll all hits, then reroll 1s to wound. When you kill some of them, they roll for the ancient for each killed model. If it can shoot again, he rolls to hit, rerolls all hit rolls, then rolls to wound, and rerolls 1s to wound.

A lot more strats should be once-per-game only, and no auras should offer better than a reroll 1s, unless they're once-per-game.

Doom/guide type stuff is fine; they've always been a fundamental part of the faction and are balanced by requiring a psychic test and only working on one unit.

They also need to remove master artisans type stuff from the game entirely.

yukishiro1 wrote:
GW thinks rolling more dice = more fun.

In some instances they would be right, the randomness can be exciting, as can rolling a big handfull of dice. Problem is that re-rolls neuter that kind of excitement; at least they stopped re-rolls for vehicle explosions.

 harlokin wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
GW thinks rolling more dice = more fun.

In some instances they would be right, the randomness can be exciting, as can rolling a big handfull of dice. Problem is that re-rolls neuter that kind of excitement; at least they stopped re-rolls for vehicle explosions.

They are very wrong when it came to Marines 2.0
Compair the amount of time a dang marine shooting phase takes with most armies and for less than half the models they tend to spend longer via rerolls upon rerolls.

It's kinda like the plasma needs to be cheaper because it explodes if you roll a 1, except you gave almost every faction a reroll 1's ability or some way to get +1 to hit meaning it never triggers.

It sadly appears that we still have/had a GW that seems intent on giving codex's ways to ignore downsides.

 harlokin wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
GW thinks rolling more dice = more fun.

In some instances they would be right, the randomness can be exciting, as can rolling a big handfull of dice. Problem is that re-rolls neuter that kind of excitement; at least they stopped re-rolls for vehicle explosions.

The problem is that what people are mostly complaining about is more dice per unit, rather than more dice in general, which means you get less randomness, not more.

Re-rolls should be a targeted buff on one unit rather than an aura and never be better than re-roll 1s. I also think GW should not have allowed any army to get access to both re-roll 1s to hit and to wound. Combine that with units rolling over 50 dice to hit fairly frequently and the game gets ridiculous, with volume of fire being more important than quality. I think GW should be looking to reduce the number of shots you can fire from a single unit, probably through restricting equipment choices to prevent it in the first place but, if not, then probably by implementing different rules for things like Aggressors who can fire over 100 shots, with full re-rolls to hit and re-roll 1s to wound, leading to over 300 dice rolls to resolve a single unit's shooting. Sadly, the evidence from their various 9th edition streams indicates they think more dice really does equal more fun, as shown by how they were talking about the Outriders and their 6 attacks each on the charge (because a random biker model for Space Marines obviously needs more attacks on a single model than pretty much any other army can manage on their premier close combat characters). One really quick fix could be to require aura effects to have every model in the unit within the aura's range which would at least require some sort of thought and a minor sacrifice with the positioning of your models.

I'd love to see stratagems restricted more too. Either once per game per stratagem, which would make them feel like more of a strategic choice, or only one stratagem per phase except for the core rulebook ones. It's too easy to stack VotLW and Endless Cacophony, for example, and pretty mindless. If you had to choose one or the other, or had to decide exactly when the best time to use it was that would make games more interesting. That's especially true when one player has great offensive strats and the other has good defensive ones. If you can only use each once you have end up trying to draw out something like Transhuman Physiology early so you can more effectively use your once-per-game VotLW, for example. Now, with fixed CPs and more CPs for most armies, I think we'll see strats become even more important in the game and even more mindless to use.

I'm sure some may disagree with this, but I think a suitable way to resolve it would be to go back to allowing Characters to attach to squads. IMO, the threat of the uber-Deathstar unit was gone with the arrival of 8th, mainly as they got rid of a lot of the buffs such as Invisibility. If your Chapter Master could attach to an Intercessor Squad and give the reroll buffs only to them, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But otherwise yes, I'm getting a bit tiresome of the re-roll auras, perhaps if you designated one unit per turn to receive the buff, that may be a good compromise.

Stratagems would be fine if we had cards for all of them. Since PA didn't update our packs, it has become confusing again, especially when half the stratagems are spread out to a secondary mechanic, like plague fleets, specialist detachments or kustom jobs.

I agree that shoot twice stratagems and some others need to become once-per-game only. They are just so powerful that they warp the entire army around them, orks and chaos space marines basically build their entire 8th edition strategy around those.

As for re-rolls? Yeah, that gak needs to get trimmed.
Necrons solved this in a very elegant way and should act as a template for all other units.
Chaptains, chaos lords, autarchs should be +1 to hit for one unit. pick during command phase. Sergeants and the like should be +1 to wound, pick during command phase as well. Chapter master picks two units.

Another idea would be having a re-roll pool similar to miracle dice, where you can collect re-rolls from your characters that can be used when needed.

But we all know how this would end, remember how the removed twin-linked from all guns to speed up the game?Once they have trimmed all the re-rolls from the characters, they would go back to putting it on the space marine guns, their datasheets, their army traits and their kitchen sinks.
By the end of the edition, space marines plus two other favored factions would have full re-rolls again, while everyone else is left without again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm sure some may disagree with this, but I think a suitable way to resolve it would be to go back to allowing Characters to attach to squads. IMO, the threat of the uber-Deathstar unit was gone with the arrival of 8th, mainly as they got rid of a lot of the buffs such as Invisibility. If your Chapter Master could attach to an Intercessor Squad and give the reroll buffs only to them, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But otherwise yes, I'm getting a bit tiresome of the re-roll auras, perhaps if you designated one unit per turn to receive the buff, that may be a good compromise.

Attaching characters to units wasn't just problematic for balance reasons, it also was a rules nightmare when it comes to mixed stats, removing casualties and joining and leaving units. Not to mention that all characters who could not join units were useless.

The core problem is auras, not characters being their own units.

As usual the problem is with Marines. If you're not playing a game with Marines in it, things are much more enjoyable and the game doesn't drag on and slow to a crawl. Hell, I play Eldar and Necrons and have access to re-roll shenanigans but it doesn't effect game speed at all, because all of those are affecting one unit at a time and I'm outputting a very small amount of shots.

When a 40 model count army is the leading cause of long games in your system then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.

Has anyone played ,or tested, marines without any auras or auras being in effect for just one unit ?

If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

With the way character targeting works in 9th, it practicaly is whole within situation, because if they are further away then it is too easy to drop units around the character to under 3 models or the character to be further then 3" away from units.

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

With the way character targeting works in 9th, it practicaly is whole within situation, because if they are further away then it is too easy to drop units around the character to under 3 models or the character to be further then 3" away from units.

Can still spread your units out a lot. The targeting only means you will mostly have one dedicated unit close by.

I've played both types of rules in AoS(1.0 to 2.0) and the wholly within changed considerably how you advance and spread your forces.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm sure some may disagree with this, but I think a suitable way to resolve it would be to go back to allowing Characters to attach to squads. IMO, the threat of the uber-Deathstar unit was gone with the arrival of 8th, mainly as they got rid of a lot of the buffs such as Invisibility. If your Chapter Master could attach to an Intercessor Squad and give the reroll buffs only to them, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But otherwise yes, I'm getting a bit tiresome of the re-roll auras, perhaps if you designated one unit per turn to receive the buff, that may be a good compromise.

Attaching characters to units wasn't just problematic for balance reasons, it also was a rules nightmare when it comes to mixed stats, removing casualties and joining and leaving units. Not to mention that all characters who could not join units were useless.

The core problem is auras, not characters being their own units.

Good point. I only really played Marines or Guard in 7th, so didn't really come across issues such as mixed Toughness (no, I didn't use Ogryns or Centurions at all). I think with some extra refinement the majority of the rules issues could be ironed out, but my main point was that the re-rolls aren't as bad at all if they were only applicable to a single unit rather than just an aura buff.

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

With the way character targeting works in 9th, it practicaly is whole within situation, because if they are further away then it is too easy to drop units around the character to under 3 models or the character to be further then 3" away from units.

Hardly. The traditional SM castle from 8th was a CM and Lt in the middle of a mass of units that often constituted the entire SM army. It's not exactly trivial to remove an entire army from the board to get at the characters.