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I honestly never had an issue with rerolls. I did however have Marine envy with the variety of rerolls that they had access to. My opponent would be like "This unit allows rerolls for wound rolls of 1, this one is hit rolls of 1, and this one is all hit rolls!"

and I'm like "This ethereal lets me reroll hit rolls of 1, the first marker light lets me reroll hit rolls of 1, the multi-tracker lets me reroll hit rolls of 1, and this commander ability that I can use once per game lets me reroll all hit rolls if I don't move and am within 6" of the unit using the ability."

Slipspace wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

With the way character targeting works in 9th, it practicaly is whole within situation, because if they are further away then it is too easy to drop units around the character to under 3 models or the character to be further then 3" away from units.

Hardly. The traditional SM castle from 8th was a CM and Lt in the middle of a mass of units that often constituted the entire SM army. It's not exactly trivial to remove an entire army from the board to get at the characters.

Yeah, but luckily that is the kind of list which has no chances to win in 9th (and in 8th, CA19).

Primaris marine lists have few models, even fewer now with point increases. Remember that the marines were hit quite harshly by point increase, probably only CWE was hit harder than marines (for good reasons I may add).

The typical marine list in 9th will be 3 HQ, 3 troops and about 5-6 other units. They will have to spread a lot to cover the objectives, and the lists will have to reflect that. They will probably keep a castle with the reroll bubbles and 2 or 3 heavy hitting units, but everything else will be outside the bubbles.

Seabass wrote:
My only real problem with rerolls is when its more than an unmodified roll of a 1.

I'm of the opposite opinion - I hate rerolling 1s because it's a lot of extra faffing about for minimal gain.

IMO rerolls should be rare but meaningful.

Full rerolls are actually rare and meaningful.

Only the SM have more of them, but they can do that because they are native BS3+, so the rerolls are less powerful than in the other factions.

Even when they bring full reroll hit and Lt rerolls, it is equivalent to a single full reroll hit of any BS4+ faction.

The problem is not that they have it, they problem is that it is too cheap.

Spoletta wrote:
Full rerolls are actually rare and meaningful.

Only the SM have more of them, but they can do that because they are native BS3+, so the rerolls are less powerful than in the other factions.

Even when they bring full reroll hit and Lt rerolls, it is equivalent to a single full reroll hit of any BS4+ faction.

The problem is not that they have it, they problem is that it is too cheap.

not really, rerolls become stronger the BS goes lower.

You get way less shots (%) that connect if youre rerolling all on BS4 than rerolling all on BS3

Incorrect.

An SM goes from accuracy 66% to 88%. An increase of 33%.

A Tau goes from 50% to 75%. An increase of 50%.

An ork goes from 33% to 55%. An increase of 66%.

The higher the BS, the lower the gain.

Spoletta wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If they would make rerolls wholly within it would fix a lot of issues and make it a risk v. reward thing. You want to reroll? Better bunch up your men. Don't want to be easily surrounded in your castle? No rerolls.

Rerolls should also be capped at reroll 1s and never more. Full rerolls are ridiculous.

With the way character targeting works in 9th, it practicaly is whole within situation, because if they are further away then it is too easy to drop units around the character to under 3 models or the character to be further then 3" away from units.

Hardly. The traditional SM castle from 8th was a CM and Lt in the middle of a mass of units that often constituted the entire SM army. It's not exactly trivial to remove an entire army from the board to get at the characters.

Yeah, but luckily that is the kind of list which has no chances to win in 9th (and in 8th, CA19).

Primaris marine lists have few models, even fewer now with point increases. Remember that the marines were hit quite harshly by point increase, probably only CWE was hit harder than marines (for good reasons I may add).

The typical marine list in 9th will be 3 HQ, 3 troops and about 5-6 other units. They will have to spread a lot to cover the objectives, and the lists will have to reflect that. They will probably keep a castle with the reroll bubbles and 2 or 3 heavy hitting units, but everything else will be outside the bubbles.

You think spacemarines saw the highest pointa increases, you must play marines if you think that's true they are one of the armies least effected by the point changes going into 9th plenty of new undercosted units and way cheaper special and heavy weapons.

The NEW units are broken. Eradicators in particular, and you will see that I have spammed this board with that

Old ones? Not so much. All of the competitive marine choices suffered point hikes well above the average.

Eliminators? 25%
Aggressors? 22%
Intercessors? Still fine with only a 18%
TFC? LOL
Centurions? LOL and nerfed
Chaplain Dread? The way of the squats
Repulsor Executioner? "Only" 16% (and still pays for PoTMS).
Whirlwinds? LOL

The only model which came out well out of all of this is the Leviathan, with only a 14% increase and the really important capacity of shooting in melee.

Apart from characters, what else was there?


The 9th edition has been a plain nerf to marines, there is no mistaking that. They are also among the biggest losers of the new overwatch rules.

The reason why in general marines are not preoccupied by this, is because they were in a position where they could take the hit and because the new units are totally OP.

To the OP

It got "to much" after the first year of 8th. stupid number of shots, combined with stupid number of re-rolls and then adding books and books of game bending stratagems akin to 7th's books of formations.

Making people use stratagems so their army of choice actually worked the way it used to naturally with those rules previously built into the lore of the faction.

As a side effect it caused games to go from the promised streamlined "index release" 8th ed to games that ended up taking extended amounts of time to play.

I keep seeing it. last weekend we did a game of 5th edition that went 5 turns, during the same time another table was playing a game of 8th that was only in the middle of turn 2-started at the same time

a few weeks back 7 turns of 5th ed VS 3 turns of 8th ed in less than 2 hours of play.

So yeah, not a fan of the re-rolls(or stratagems), they were manageable when limited to twin linked weapons, litanies of hate for chaplains, a master crafted weapon here or there(only allowed a single re-roll to hit) but re-rolling all the things all the time really puts a drag on the game.

And just wait to see how much time resolving a blast will take. You have to resolve them one at a time to check how many models are left alive before the next shot.

Spoletta wrote:
Full rerolls are actually rare and meaningful.

Only the SM have more of them, but they can do that because they are native BS3+, so the rerolls are less powerful than in the other factions.

Even when they bring full reroll hit and Lt rerolls, it is equivalent to a single full reroll hit of any BS4+ faction.

The problem is not that they have it, they problem is that it is too cheap.

I think you've misunderstood my point.

My complaint isn't that there are too many abilities that allow for full rerolls. My complaint is that there are too many 'reroll 1s' abilities, which amount to little more than dedicated time-wasting mechanics.

I would rather factions had access to single-target abilities that give full rerolls, rather than auras which waste everyone's time by making every unit around them reroll 1s.

I've been saying for a while that it's the re-rolls and strats that are causing game length to drag. It's NOT the number of models. When you play a game of 8th, with no rerolls and no, or very limited strats, the game goes much much faster. Another part of the issue is the fact that the amount of available re-rolls is compounded by the fact that it's not uncommon for a squad to be able to roll a mountain of dice. So then re-rolling a significant portion of those dice can also slow things down. It is then further complicated by the fact that you can get re-rolls for nearly every part of a turn.

I actually LIKE strats, so I wouldn't want to eliminate them, but we need a better way to differentiate characters other than just giving re-rolls out like candy. A few here and there are fine, but play against a typical marine list and they can pack enough re-rolls to practically play the game twice in one sitting.

Nothing ever changes. Edition hasn't even released yet and people are about it already.

Adapt and play, having fun with your friends and little toy soldiers. Forget all about previous editions. That way lies only madness.

They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Mathematically speaking the rr1 abilities are incredibily handy. They reward in the same way all stat lines and all weapons. It is simply perfect.

Bonuses are terrible unfortunately, especially when applied to the wounding roll.

Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

That's kind of cool. I could see that. Honestly, like I said, I really like strats, and re-rolls as a concept are fine. I just feel like, maybe if they did not hand re-rolls out so freely it would be better? For strats, I think a smaller number per army, but for that smaller number, you get more directly useful ones would help as well. IMO "Creations of Bile" seems like a good example of this.

Nothing ever changes. Edition hasn't even released yet and people are about it already.

Adapt and play, having fun with your friends and little toy soldiers. Forget all about previous editions. That way lies only madness.

A lot of people here have actually played the new edition, so while we all still need WAY more games, some of what's being discussed is valid. Especially since some of these things were already a problem in 8th, and are being ported over into 9th ...

Totto wrote:
So, these days it seems like many factions have these shenanigans going on via auras,stratagems, psychics, litanies etc: "Reroll all failed hit rolls", "Reroll all failed wound rolls" and my favourite: "Reroll all failed hit rolls AND wound rolls". Like wtf? Its not even just reroll ones, it's all?

I'm tired at seeing people shooting me or attacking me in melee and failing like 75% of their attacks, only to reroll them and failing like 10%. I mean ok fine if you have a BS or WS of 5 or higher, but on troops with BS or WS 4? or even 3? sometimes with str8 or higher weapons where the most you need to wound is 4+?

Not only units stats and core rules have become mostly inconsequential as far as playing against marines is concerned, the designers seem totally oblivious about the massive stratagem bloat and powercreep that currently constitutes 40k. They are proud of the game as is; it's like they don't play it.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Nothing ever changes. Edition hasn't even released yet and people are about it already.

Adapt and play, having fun with your friends and little toy soldiers. Forget all about previous editions. That way lies only madness.

People are about it because we can READ, and have working brain cells, we also can compare it to other things they have done, some that worked and some that didn't, as well as other companies game systems that are actually better written.


I still play 5th because it is overall a better set of rules for casual play, without adding in a few house rules that make it even better, it already fixed almost all the problems people are praising 9th ed for fixing,

.reduced lethality-check
.interactive and meaningful terrain-check
.speed of game play-check
.objectives that promote game play to the end of the game, not making a forgone outcome at the bottom of turn 2.-check.
.lore based flavor built into the rules for different armies (not reliant on stratagems)-check

Madness is continuing, even after all these years of screw-ups, to suck GWs giant "ego" and pay their ridiculous prices for a terrible game system (note the models are great quality) we would not tolerate from any other game company, especially one that's up and coming.

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

No, you would roll only X additional dices, why would you roll 20?

Spoletta wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

No, you would roll only X additional dices, why would you roll 20?

What would X be then? You can't just leave that blank because X=3 for an LT and X=5 for an LT are vastly different values and your idea is impossible to evaluate without knowing what number each HQ would get.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

The marine version is a problem because of the sheer amount of rerolling. Eldar powers like Guide and Doom aren't an issue because at most you're affecting a single squad.

Custodes rerolls really bug me too. 2+ rerolling ones is just fishing for the 1/36 chance you miss, which is a waste of time.

Custodes in general are the most unfun army to play against this edition. They basically can't die without rolling literally buckets of dice, and focusing them down so much that you can't do in more than 1-2 units per turn. It's gotten so bad that I just straight up refuse to play against anyone who uses them. They might as well just have the rule that says "We always hit and we always save."

I really wish 3++ wasn't a thing at all, the best Invuln really should be a 4++ and that should be extremely rare, reserved mostly for characters and maybe things like terminators. It gets even worse when you throw something like a 5+++ on top of it for even more nastiness.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Spoiler:

Spoletta wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

No, you would roll only X additional dices, why would you roll 20?

What would X be then? You can't just leave that blank because X=3 for an LT and X=5 for an LT are vastly different values and your idea is impossible to evaluate without knowing what number each HQ would get.

I was suggesting a different kind of mechanic, not giving the numbers for it, but yes I was thinking about 3 for an LT, 5 for a Captain and 7 for a CM.

Spoletta wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

No, you would roll only X additional dices, why would you roll 20?

...It doesn't matter what X is.

Suppose you have 5 shots. You need a 4+ to hit. Say X is 5, so you're getting to re-roll any of them.

With a normal reroll, if you get 4 hits and 1 miss, you then roll a single extra die and have a 50% chance of turning that miss into a hit.

Under your proposed system, you are rolling an extra 5 dice, and have a 97% chance of turning that miss into a hit.

Rolling extra dice and capping your successes is not statistically equivalent to rerolling up to a certain # of failures.

I had a thought - what if 'Reroll 1s' auras were replaced with 'Reroll a single to-hit and to-wound roll per unit'?

That just creates the master artisans problem, and rewards people even more for single entity and small-model-count units.

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Maybe a solution would be to change the "Reroll 1" aura to "Units in this aura can reroll X hit rolls", so that the bonuses would be applied more to units with few attacks. Also, you could fast roll it. Just roll all the dices + number of rerollable dices and if by chance you hit more attacks than the actual number of shots, don't count the attacks in excess. Bigger officers have bigger X values.

Yeah, that could work.

Not statistically equivalent. Consider the case where you are rolling 20 dice, and are allowed to reroll any of them. Suppose you get 19 hits.

Under the current system, you get to reroll the single die that missed.

Under your proposed system, you're rolling an extra 20 dice, and if any of them show a hit then that die that missed is treated like a hit instead.

I think the mechanic you describe has some value as a mechanic, but it's dramatically more powerful than a reroll.

No, you would roll only X additional dices, why would you roll 20?

...It doesn't matter what X is.

Suppose you have 5 shots. You need a 4+ to hit. Say X is 5, so you're getting to re-roll any of them.

With a normal reroll, if you get 4 hits and 1 miss, you then roll a single extra die and have a 50% chance of turning that miss into a hit.

Under your proposed system, you are rolling an extra 5 dice, and have a 97% chance of turning that miss into a hit.

Rolling extra dice and capping your successes is not statistically equivalent to rerolling up to a certain # of failures.

Oh, so you meant that you can't fast roll it! Yeah, you are right, you would have to reroll in the classic way.

I think re-roll should be unit locked. Specific character is only able to give the aura to a specific unit.

Like Badrukk allows Flash Gitz, and Flash Gitz only, to re-roll 1s so an Archon could give his aura only to Kabalite for examples and SM captain only to a specific unit like Hellblasters maybe. Not just to anything in range.

Less re-rolls but more meaningful and possibly more fluffy.

 Togusa wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So is the actual problem re-rolls of the superpowered Marine version?

The marine version is a problem because of the sheer amount of rerolling. Eldar powers like Guide and Doom aren't an issue because at most you're affecting a single squad.

Custodes rerolls really bug me too. 2+ rerolling ones is just fishing for the 1/36 chance you miss, which is a waste of time.

Custodes in general are the most unfun army to play against this edition. They basically can't die without rolling literally buckets of dice, and focusing them down so much that you can't do in more than 1-2 units per turn. It's gotten so bad that I just straight up refuse to play against anyone who uses them. They might as well just have the rule that says "We always hit and we always save."

Yeah, it's just the irritation factor. They're not even a very good army on their own, it's just a friggin chore. A squad of 30 Devilgaunts, firing 90 shots kill about a single basic Custodes. It winds up being better for me to fire them at the FW hover tanks because they have a 3+ save instead of a 2+.

yukishiro1 wrote:
That just creates the master artisans problem, and rewards people even more for single entity and small-model-count units.

Is that necessarily a bad thing, though? Especially with Stratagems generally pushing in the opposite direction.

 vipoid wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
That just creates the master artisans problem, and rewards people even more for single entity and small-model-count units.

Is that necessarily a bad thing, though? Especially with Stratagems generally pushing in the opposite direction.

The problem with incongruous benefits is that they become exceedingly difficult to balance. In this case they'd have to balance around the fact that people would take such an aura character to buff Dreadnoughts, never to actually lead their troops. Then when they design new weapons, they have to balance around access to re-rolling a single die- this artificially makes low-shot high-power weapons more useful than the inverse. There's a cascade effect that ultimately either punishes players who don't use that 'expected' playstyle, or excessively benefits players who do, depending on which end of the spectrum they balance around.

I very much like the idea Blackie suggested of having re-rolls be tied to specific units. Having one character that lets a single unit re-roll 1s to hit versus another character that lets all nearby Intercessors re-roll 1s to hit would make those characters feel very different, and allow more fine-tuning than the current indiscriminate aura blob.