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A Tau Ion Rifle isn’t rifled.

An Aliens Pulse Rifle isn’t rifled.

Actual rifling being present has no bearing on whether an IP calls a standard SciFi infantry firearm a rifle.

 Insectum7 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You assume they get it. Point of bespoke rules is every datasheet can be unique.

I am assuming that, yes. Like I said, I'm going to be bullish on Multimeltas. There are times when GW is sloppy about this sort of thing, but I don't think they'll be so sloppy in this case.

A million dollars (pinky to lip) says that all marines get the upgraded MMs and upgraded melta rule on all their stuff and everyone else including CSM does not get it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You assume they get it. Point of bespoke rules is every datasheet can be unique.

I am assuming that, yes. Like I said, I'm going to be bullish on Multimeltas. There are times when GW is sloppy about this sort of thing, but I don't think they'll be so sloppy in this case.

A million dollars (pinky to lip) says that all marines get the upgraded MMs and upgraded melta rule on all their stuff and everyone else including CSM does not get it.

Really think the more probable outcome is that in the codex the gun is changed to a "Melty McMeltyface auto-melt rifle" and everyone else stays the same.

I mean its the usual balance issues all the way down. If all MMs are suddenly 2 shots then Lascannons *suck*. I think people falling over themselves to throw MMs onto anything that moves may be disappointed.

 kodos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if melta guns will move to 24" with 1 shot.

Then it would be the Eradicator Melta Rifle.

so? explain to me how rifling would double the range of a concentrated microwave beam.

It's not about physics, it's about naming the thing something different because it has different in-game stats, same as the 20 different Bolter variations.

yes and no, using a specific name gives the specific meaning to a weapon

if the gun is named Bolt-Carbine but get Sniper rules makes no sense
Same as having a short range Melta-Gun and a long range Melta-Rifle

if the Leman Russ Battle Cannon would be called LR Coil Cannon it would make much more sense (at least with the current model)

Naming is very important and connected to physics, just using a radnom name that sounds cool because you need 20 different ones for the same weapon only kills of immersion and nothing else

definitions change over time though.

Definition changes

but if there is a Melta Carbine, a Melta Rifle and a Melta Cannon and the differenc is the range it is something different than having a Melta Gun, Melta Rifle and Multi-Melta.

as with the first it indicates different sizes of the Melta weapon, with the later it would be that the Rifle indicates something special that rifles have over a gun

 kodos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if melta guns will move to 24" with 1 shot.

Then it would be the Eradicator Melta Rifle.

so? explain to me how rifling would double the range of a concentrated microwave beam.

It's not about physics, it's about naming the thing something different because it has different in-game stats, same as the 20 different Bolter variations.

yes and no, using a specific name gives the specific meaning to a weapon

if the gun is named Bolt-Carbine but get Sniper rules makes no sense
Same as having a short range Melta-Gun and a long range Melta-Rifle

if the Leman Russ Battle Cannon would be called LR Coil Cannon it would make much more sense (at least with the current model)

Naming is very important and connected to physics, just using a radnom name that sounds cool because you need 20 different ones for the same weapon only kills of immersion and nothing else

Naming of weapons is not inherently linked to physics. Just look at grenades (named after fruit).

The carbine thing is an oddity. Carbines wouldn't be inherently suited to sniping, though sniping shots can and have been made with guns not particularly suited to the task. For verisimilitude, the rule would make more sense to be on the unit rather than the gun, though I'm not aware of any carbines with sniping rules used by units that can take weapons that lack the same rule, so it makes no practical difference.

The rifle gripe is pedantry. While "rifle" technically refers to a gun with a rifled barrel, it is used frequently (and even officially) to refer to guns with no actual rifling. Just as a couple examples, recoilless guns are generally referred to as recoilless rifles even when smoothbore (and in some cases are officially named "rifles" even when smothebore), and the PHASR has "rifle" right in the name, despite not firing a projectile at all. Fictional shoulder fired energy weapons are very frequently referred to as "rifles", and it would not be unprecedented for a term's meaning to expand beyond the original technical definition. It would be pretty reasonable for such a weapon to be referred to as a "rifle" in real life. Might as well complain about the name of the lasgun since it doesn't actually fire a projectile as such, so wouldn't fall under the original technical definition of a "gun".

I don't get the complaint about the LRBC.

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You assume they get it. Point of bespoke rules is every datasheet can be unique.

I am assuming that, yes. Like I said, I'm going to be bullish on Multimeltas. There are times when GW is sloppy about this sort of thing, but I don't think they'll be so sloppy in this case.

A million dollars (pinky to lip) says that all marines get the upgraded MMs and upgraded melta rule on all their stuff and everyone else including CSM does not get it.

Really think the more probable outcome is that in the codex the gun is changed to a "Melty McMeltyface auto-melt rifle" and everyone else stays the same.

I mean its the usual balance issues all the way down. If all MMs are suddenly 2 shots then Lascannons *suck*. I think people falling over themselves to throw MMs onto anything that moves may be disappointed.

Yeah, I'm not buying that GW won't just give loyalist space marines better versions of all the stadard shared imperial weaponry and leave everyone else with shittier outdated versions.

I mean, they've already done it with Boltguns, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, Autocannons, Heavy Stubbers weirdly enough, Chainswords, Storm Shields, Power Swords (what, oh, these? No they're MASTER CRAFTED Power swords, meaning they're a power axe strapped to a power sword that does 2 damage...)

Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

So English is just missing the basic/generic term for long barreled firearms? (never really thought about that)

In German "Gewehr" is generic, Büchse specific for rifled and Flinte for smoothbore firearms
there are other terms as well if the loading mechanics or length is the important difference

so if we use the specific word for the rifled firearm, this is the important feature of the weapon
otherwise the generic term or one appropriate for the features of the gun is used

 kodos wrote:
So English is just missing the basic/generic term for long barreled firearms? (never really thought about that)

In German "Gewehr" is generic, Büchse specific for rifled and Flinte for smoothbore firearms
there are other terms as well if the loading mechanics or length is the important difference

so if we use the specific word for the rifled firearm, this is the important feature of the weapon
otherwise the generic term or one appropriate for the features of the gun is used

The generic term would be "long gun", but that's rarely used outside of specific contexts, and never used in naming individual small arms that I'm aware of. For everyday use, there's not really a good generic term that doesn't start including or excluding too much. "Rifle" is probably the closest English gets to wanting to describe a modern small arm that's not a pistol or shotgun.

Rather than the name, what bugs me is the silly above the barrel vertical grip on the melta-rifles. Now that thing doesn't make sense. A horizontal side or even chainsaw grip would make more sense if you don't want to just hold the forestock.

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

 kodos wrote:
So English is just missing the basic/generic term for long barreled firearms? (never really thought about that)

In German "Gewehr" is generic, Büchse specific for rifled and Flinte for smoothbore firearms
there are other terms as well if the loading mechanics or length is the important difference

so if we use the specific word for the rifled firearm, this is the important feature of the weapon
otherwise the generic term or one appropriate for the features of the gun is used

English is weird.

The generic term is "Long arm", as opposed to "Small arms", or in some cases "Long gun", but as a rifled long arm has become the norm, the term is usually just "rifle" with "smoothbore" used for a long arm that isn't rifled.

IE, all long arms are Rifles unless specifically called a Smoothbore.

Which gets odd when you get to science fiction stuff, since "Rifle" doesn't really apply to a gun that isn't rifled, but we still use it because we're lazy.

See also: Clips vs magazines.

English! Technically we have rules but honestly? Most people don't follow them. It's a terrible language but good luck getting most Americans to learn another one.

tneva82 wrote:
There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

You've mentioned this (or something like this) a couple of times now - where are they, and what are the differences?

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

They'd be lower strength than autocannons. They're also wildly over priced and almost never taken by choice as they are.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are cheap firepower, but barring some special rules they come with some significant drawbacks.

Slow.
They cannot hurt anything 27" away.
Fragile. Really fragile for that cost. The TFC gets away with it thanks to range and no LoS shooting, but this thing is too easy to kill.

Well, you could reframe that another way and call it a pair of Eradicators with a slower move, BS 2+and 1 less wound.

I'm curious to know what the point cost for them is.

Lol you can take em in squads of three, I just noticed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if melta guns will move to 24" with 1 shot.

Then it would be the Eradicator Melta Rifle.

With lastalons they are 130 points. Predator level cost for something that can be oneshot by a lascannon.

Spoletta wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are cheap firepower, but barring some special rules they come with some significant drawbacks.

Slow.
They cannot hurt anything 27" away.
Fragile. Really fragile for that cost. The TFC gets away with it thanks to range and no LoS shooting, but this thing is too easy to kill.

Well, you could reframe that another way and call it a pair of Eradicators with a slower move, BS 2+and 1 less wound.

I'm curious to know what the point cost for them is.

Lol you can take em in squads of three, I just noticed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if melta guns will move to 24" with 1 shot.

Then it would be the Eradicator Melta Rifle.

With lastalons they are 130 points. Predator level cost for something that can be oneshot by a lascannon.

Oh wow. Haha, yeah that's not very impressive then.

On the flipside, it's about the same cost as a quad-lascannon Devastator squad, but with better BS, same number of wounds, higher T, and higher Sv. Not that Devastators are a hot commodity at the moment, but still.

If the leaked datasheet doesn't represent special rules, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Firestrike is going to have Deep Strike and/or a non-negligible invuln save, simply because a range-limited, fragile, extremely slow unit doesn't really fit the Primaris design style.

Well, a dev squad doesn't get killed by a single multi damage shot, not to mention that it is infantry.

If that thing doesn't have some special rules, then it's DoA.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

They'd be lower strength than autocannons. They're also wildly over priced and almost never taken by choice as they are.

With 3 shots they would deal more damage than an autocannon against all targets except specifically T6 where Autocannons would wound on 3s and Heavy Bolters would wound on 5s.

Not that marine players would care as your autocannons have all already been upgraded to be either AP-2 or 3 shots Ahead of the ball game!

 catbarf wrote:
On the flipside, it's about the same cost as a quad-lascannon Devastator squad, but with better BS, same number of wounds, higher T, and higher Sv. Not that Devastators are a hot commodity at the moment, but still.

If the leaked datasheet doesn't represent special rules, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Firestrike is going to have Deep Strike and/or a non-negligible invuln save, simply because a range-limited, fragile, extremely slow unit doesn't really fit the Primaris design style.

Devastators have access to cheap transports, a wider range of weaponry, and a 48" range Lascannon gives more defensive deployment capability. They have a great advantage in being very tailor-able with good deployment ootions.

I've been relying heavily on Plasma Cannon Devs for a couple years now, and Plasma Cannons only got better with 9th.

I hope the following things happen:

1) All MMs are 2 shots and all meltas are getting the d6+3 Damage at half range. It makes sense. MMs have 2 barrels, so they should be 2 shots.
There's still room for Lascannons for several reasons. They are 5ppm cheaper than MMs, many units come stock with Las and can't swap for MMs, and the range allows more flexibility.
MMs would be the default antitank option for fast units, but Lascannons have merits on slower units, especially INFANTRY.

2) Heavy bolters become D:2 at their current Heavy 3 profile. It would make them a worthwhile choice over just spamming various Bolt rifles.
I hope this also means that the image of the Invictors HB pistol is either a misprint, or it's getting it's own Heavy Heavy bolt pistol variant that comes stock with its points cost.

3) At release of the SM codex that has all these changes, I hope an FAQ drops for Chaos Marines, Sisters, GKs and Guard (did I miss any?) That bumps those factions' MMs, HBs and meltaguns to match

-

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

They'd be lower strength than autocannons. They're also wildly over priced and almost never taken by choice as they are.

With 3 shots they would deal more damage than an autocannon against all targets except specifically T6 where Autocannons would wound on 3s and Heavy Bolters would wound on 5s.

Not that marine players would care as your autocannons have all already been upgraded to be either AP-2 or 3 shots Ahead of the ball game!

And t7, autocannon wins there I think. With transports on the rise again those are valuable brackets to be good at.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

They'd be lower strength than autocannons. They're also wildly over priced and almost never taken by choice as they are.

With 3 shots they would deal more damage than an autocannon against all targets except specifically T6 where Autocannons would wound on 3s and Heavy Bolters would wound on 5s.

Not that marine players would care as your autocannons have all already been upgraded to be either AP-2 or 3 shots Ahead of the ball game!

And t7, autocannon wins there I think. With transports on the rise again those are valuable brackets to be good at.

Damage is identical at T7. All other toughness values besides T6 a D2 heavy bolter is identical or better than an autocannon. T6 is the rarest toughness value as well.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Multimeltas. As mentioned we currently have two versions: roll two dice and pick highest; roll two dice and pick one (Codex Space Marines 2019 and Codex Adepta Sororitas).

I doubt there is any change to Heavy Bolters coming. I strongly suspect the Invictor Warsuit has its weapon renamed in the new codex.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Do I think all Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas within Codex Space Marines will get the new buffed up super statline? Yes. Do I think anyone else will get it? I'm highly doubtful, and if they do, it might be sloooooooooowly rolled out through the codexes so armies like GSC who will probably be last again will be using the shittier versions after everyone else already gets them.

It will be incredibly laughable though when marines have superior versions of every standard weapon and they're VASTLY superior to all the xenos factions whose shtick is "crazy advanced tech" like Tau Eldar and Drukhari.

Uh 1 shot dam2 heavy bolter is nerf compared to 3 shot dam1. Even vs stuff with 2/4/6 etc wound you lose and against odd wounds you　suck.

There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

I think most are assuming that most heavy bolters will be going to damage 2 3 shots. Which is a bit of a weird thing to assume, considering how much they'd be basically exactly the same as autocannons but just infinitely better at that point. but it explains the weird unneeded price nerf so people are clinging to that rationalization.

They'd be lower strength than autocannons. They're also wildly over priced and almost never taken by choice as they are.

With 3 shots they would deal more damage than an autocannon against all targets except specifically T6 where Autocannons would wound on 3s and Heavy Bolters would wound on 5s.

Not that marine players would care as your autocannons have all already been upgraded to be either AP-2 or 3 shots Ahead of the ball game!

And t7, autocannon wins there I think. With transports on the rise again those are valuable brackets to be good at.

Damage is identical at T7. All other toughness values besides T6 a D2 heavy bolter is identical or better than an autocannon. T6 is the rarest toughness value as well.

Pretty sure 1, 2, 9, 10, 11, 46, 194, 10 billion and six are all rarer toughness values.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

You've mentioned this (or something like this) a couple of times now - where are they, and what are the differences?

In more recent books, melta weapons let you discard a die of your choice rather than the lowest roll. (SM definitely has the choice, not sure how far back it goes- DG have 'lowest', anyone who cares might check Chaos 2.0)

Plasma weapons effect on rolling 1 varies between 'destroyed,' 'slain,' '1 MW' and '1 MW for each roll of 1' depending on the book and weapon. There may be other variations out there, but those are present in GSC and SM ('destroyed' is current, 'slain' is the old version).*

This is in contrast to the Demolisher Cannon, which was updated in every current FAQ (that can have one in the army) to have the same profile.

So there is precedent to update a weapon if they feel like it, or ignore the differences completely.

----
*Its worth noting that the 9th edition rules exclusively use the term 'destroyed.' Slain technically no longer has any game meaning that I can find..

----
It may be worthwhile to check the 'app' to see if codexes with the older versions have been updated, but I doubt it.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

You've mentioned this (or something like this) a couple of times now - where are they, and what are the differences?

Marines/Sisters vs everybody else(and you can include any non-imperium melta weapon at that).

Just check the rules yourself. I'm not going to be handing out rules. Do little bit of work yourself

 Platuan4th wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

90 points for a speed with a MM and AC (so 5 more). That gives the speeder better shooting than the ATV for 2 less wounds, but 2 to 6" more movement and fly. Seems like a pretty decent set of trade-offs...barring a special rule for ATVs.

Just curious Daedalus, where did you find the point-costs for the ATV?

IIRC, it's in the Indomitus points section of CA20.

Correct. Who knows what the codex will bring, however.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's been 2 different multi meltas for about year and the way overheats work vary wildly between armies as well

You've mentioned this (or something like this) a couple of times now - where are they, and what are the differences?

Marines/Sisters vs everybody else(and you can include any non-imperium melta weapon at that).

Just check the rules yourself. I'm not going to be handing out rules. Do little bit of work yourself

Jesus Christ don't be so pedantic. Roll 2d6 and pick 1 vs roll 2d6 and use the highest. Yes there's a permissive difference but please enlighten me when you would ever pick a lower result.

Necron quantum shielding? It's an edge case use but it is a technical use...