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Dense Terrain/Shooting Rules Question

ok so question with dense cover and the -1 to hit.

Squad A has 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Bolters that can clearly see 2 Models of Squad B. The Other 8 models are all in dense cover. The other 6 Bolters in Squad A cant clearly see and all 10 Models of B are in Dense cover.

Squad A shoots the heavy bolters first with no penalty as they can clearly see 2 Models. The Heavy Bolters Kill 2 models and Squad B loses the 2 models that were in the open.

What happens now when Squad A Bolters Shoot?

A) They all Shoot at -1 Penalty because when they shoot all models of Squad B are in dense cover.

B) 2 Bolters Fire with No penalty because even though they are removed they could originally see an enemy model clearly. Then 6 bolters fire with a -1 penalty because all enemy models to them were in dense cover.

C) All bolters fire with no penalty.

D) Something else entirely.

A friend and I have been in a friendly discussion, and I say Answer A. He says Answer B. I just want to know the right answer whether I'm right or wrong. Thanks for the help!

Dense cover says "when resolving an attack"

So you determine dense cover per shot.

So A in your example. *(See footnote)

In fact, if you have a weapon with 3 shots, and the first two kill the models that were clearly not behind dense cover, then the third shot would suffer the penalty.


*This assumes the unit you are shooting at does not have anything else in the way.

Are you sure about this? This sounds very combersone anf will take a very long time.

 DeathReaper wrote:

In fact, if you have a weapon with 3 shots, and the first two kill the models that were clearly not behind dense cover, then the third shot would suffer the penalty.

Irrelevant when fast rolling.

The way I see it is that this difference in cover kills off any chance of fast rolling until all the models in the open are gone.
Remember that attacks are, rules-wise, resolved on a model-by-model basis and fast rolling can only be used when it couldn't skew the results.

 Super Ready wrote:
The way I see it is that this difference in cover kills off any chance of fast rolling until all the models in the open are gone.
Remember that attacks are, rules-wise, resolved on a model-by-model basis and fast rolling can only be used when it couldn't skew the results.

I dont see anything about modifiers in the fast rolling rule.

Fast rolling
The rules for making attacks (pg. 220) have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order so make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same ballistic skill (if its a shooting attack) or the same weapon skill (if its a close combat attack). They must also have the same strength and armour penetration characteristics, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

Ok, so modifiers aren't listed as a key requirement on fast-rolling. But take a look at page 195, and the definition for hints and tips (point 5) - they're defined as "not rules per se".
In other words, the entire concept of fast-rolling is meant as guidance, it's not permission to override the basic rules.

 Super Ready wrote:
Ok, so modifiers aren't listed as a key requirement on fast-rolling. But take a look at page 195, and the definition for hints and tips (point 5) - they're defined as "not rules per se".
In other words, the entire concept of fast-rolling is meant as guidance, it's not permission to override the basic rules.

On pg. 200 it says hints and tips dice rolling. So, dice rolling is not a rule per se. Sorry, cant take that seriously.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Dense cover says "when resolving an attack"

So you determine dense cover per shot.

So A in your example. *(See footnote)

In fact, if you have a weapon with 3 shots, and the first two kill the models that were clearly not behind dense cover, then the third shot would suffer the penalty.


*This assumes the unit you are shooting at does not have anything else in the way.

Nonsense a heavy 3 weapon is 1 attack that uses 3 dice so you fire a heavy bolter and it makes no difference whether anything dies


2 the fast dice rolling requirements enable me to roll all of the same dice together. This means a cant mix fire my models in and out of dense terrain. As one is firing on a 3+ and 1 a 4+ but I could group my 3+ firing models together and fast roll them as at the time i can draw a clear line between that model and one of yours so they are the same BS. I can also fast roll the 4+ because they arnt going to change.

Which model you choose to subsequently assign attacks to and remove is irrelevant unless I choose to roll sequentially- and I wont

U02dah4 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Dense cover says "when resolving an attack"

So you determine dense cover per shot.

So A in your example. *(See footnote)

In fact, if you have a weapon with 3 shots, and the first two kill the models that were clearly not behind dense cover, then the third shot would suffer the penalty.


*This assumes the unit you are shooting at does not have anything else in the way.

Nonsense a heavy 3 weapon is 1 attack that uses 3 dice so you fire a heavy bolter and it makes no difference whether anything dies


2 the fast dice rolling requirements enable me to roll all of the same dice together. This means a cant mix fire my models in and out of dense terrain. As one is firing on a 3+ and 1 a 4+ but I could group my 3+ firing models together and fast roll them as at the time i can draw a clear line between that model and one of yours so they are the same BS. I can also fast roll the 4+ because they arnt going to change.

Which model you choose to subsequently assign attacks to and remove is irrelevant unless I choose to roll sequentially- and I wont

Err, no? A Heavy 3 weapon does 3 attacks. it literally used Heavy 3 as the example on page 217.

The number of attacks that a model makes with a ranged weapon is equal to the number written on that weapons profile after its type. For example, a model shooting an ‘Assault 1’ weapon can make one attack with that weapon; a model firing a ‘Heavy 3’ weapon can make three attacks, and so on.

Yep, Bacon has it. Though we've probably not done it this way in a LOOOOONG time - if ever - per RAW, you're meant to treat each individual shot as a separate attack.

Still doesn't change that you can fast role them because they all have the same BS and other characteristics at the point you fire

Going by the 2-model, 3-shot heavy bolter example. If you fast-roll them, how do you know whether the modifier applies to that last roll, until you've resolved the first 2? You can't, really. If those 2 shots go through and kill the remaining 2 models out of cover, that 3rd shot should have the cover modifier applied - if you've skipped ahead and already rolled that die, it could have been an invalid roll.
To further muddy this, let's say all 3 shots hit but 1 of them would fail with the modifier in place. If you've fast-rolled, how do you decide whether that shot is the one that has cover applied?

(For what it's worth - the way I do this in real life is to still fast-roll, but then say that all results apply from left-to-right, and if the dice are even horizontally, then from top-to-bottom. This makes it clear what order the dice should apply in.)

A bonus to saves would not matter so much. Declare you save the once with +1 first or last.

A modefier to hit do matter. How do you diferensiate what dice shot first? Left to right? In the order you want? (You know, these 3's I use to hit the once in the open. But the 4+ I use on the once in terain.)

To make things potensially worse remember you have to remove models with the same equipment first if you start taking hits on them, regardless of position.

While not a problem, does this not prevent fast rolling?

The argument being made against me, is that all models shoot at the same time, you are just rolling different weapons for ease. So in his view the 2 Bolters would still get a unmodified shot.

Where and how do I disprove this. Ive looked through the rules and can't seem to piece it together.

 Super Ready wrote:
Going by the 2-model, 3-shot heavy bolter example. If you fast-roll them, how do you know whether the modifier applies to that last roll, until you've resolved the first 2? You can't, really. If those 2 shots go through and kill the remaining 2 models out of cover, that 3rd shot should have the cover modifier applied - if you've skipped ahead and already rolled that die, it could have been an invalid roll.
To further muddy this, let's say all 3 shots hit but 1 of them would fail with the modifier in place. If you've fast-rolled, how do you decide whether that shot is the one that has cover applied?

(For what it's worth - the way I do this in real life is to still fast-roll, but then say that all results apply from left-to-right, and if the dice are even horizontally, then from top-to-bottom. This makes it clear what order the dice should apply in.)

I check if modifier applies

If they do not when I select target

I fast role as at the time I check they are identical.

If I fast roll you do not remove any models till after I have completed my hit and wound rolls.

Until you remove models nothing changes

By the time you remove models my hit and wounds have been completed

Future rolls might be effected e.g. a second weapon type


As to cover that works in the same way as 8th on a model by model basis. You don't assign to a model till after hit and wound roll and it is the defending player that selects which model

Traditionally you semi fast roll saves e.g. I have 3 models out of cover that I wish to assign to first I roll 3 saves at a time till a model dies then 2 etc.

spacehog wrote:
The argument being made against me, is that all models shoot at the same time, you are just rolling different weapons for ease. So in his view the 2 Bolters would still get a unmodified shot.

Where and how do I disprove this. Ive looked through the rules and can't seem to piece it together.

Check the rulebook for sequencing. Nothing in 40k happens at the same time. If two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order how to resolve them.

There's a distinction to be made between a unit choosing its target (which does happen 'all in one go', as it were) and models making their attacks, which happens model-per-model.
Here are the relevant quotes, emphasis mine, but when you take these all into consideration I really don't see how fast-rolling can comply:

Page 216 - "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved".
Page 220 - "When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6".
Page 217 - "When a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You make one hit roll for each attack being made".

 p5freak wrote:
On pg. 200 it says hints and tips dice rolling. So, dice rolling is not a rule per se. Sorry, cant take that seriously.

Sorry, didn't address this before. But everything under that Hints and Tips sidebar is indeed just hints and tips - the rest of that very same page tells you the actual rules for rolling dice. ...seriously, how did you miss that...?

 Super Ready wrote:
There's a distinction to be made between a unit choosing its target (which does happen 'all in one go', as it were) and models making their attacks, which happens model-per-model.
Here are the relevant quotes, emphasis mine, but when you take these all into consideration I really don't see how fast-rolling can comply:

Page 216 - "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved".
Page 220 - "When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6".
Page 217 - "When a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You make one hit roll for each attack being made".

 p5freak wrote:
On pg. 200 it says hints and tips dice rolling. So, dice rolling is not a rule per se. Sorry, cant take that seriously.

Sorry, didn't address this before. But everything under that Hints and Tips sidebar is indeed just hints and tips - the rest of that very same page tells you the actual rules for rolling dice. ...seriously, how did you miss that...?

In that case a Heavy 3 weapon is making 3 attacks. You can roll each one individually should you want to. Probably the better way to go honestly.

If you want to......

I don't want to it wastes time.

It is also tacticaly disadvantageous in rare cases with terrain:

I role 3 individuals first one kills a model now dense terrain may switch on for example

Alternatively I role 3 dice with no penalty.



The time thing is major if my opponents doing that in a tournament without a clock im calling a judge for deliberate time wasting.

Imagine rolling 3 units of skitarii vanguard (90 S3 shots) 1 dice at a time assuming 10s per dice role we would be looking at about 45 minutes to resolve accross the game yet alone dakkabots and corpuscarii. (Feel free to swap for other army choice like 37 lasgun shots per guard infantry.)

The problem with "not wanting to", is that you're actually breaking the rules doing so.
Also, your example is vastly exaggerated - bearing in mind the +1/-1 modifier cap, you're only looking at two different roll results thanks to terrain, and only then until the models out of cover are gone.

So let's say, using the example we've used so far, we have 2 models out of cover - but this time you're firing at them with that Skitarii Vanguard unit. You can still fast-roll 2 at a time, dropping to 1 at a time if 1 just model dies on a particular roll. Once both are dead - you can go back to fast-rolling the rest. It's really not that big a deal, time-wise.

U02dah4 wrote:
I role 3 individuals first one kills a model now dense terrain may switch on for example

Yes, and... that's exactly the point. In previous editions, units have suffered from having some models out in the open, but why shouldn't the models that are actually in cover, get the benefit of it?

This is all exactly what I needed thank you.

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
The way I see it is that this difference in cover kills off any chance of fast rolling until all the models in the open are gone.
Remember that attacks are, rules-wise, resolved on a model-by-model basis and fast rolling can only be used when it couldn't skew the results.

I dont see anything about modifiers in the fast rolling rule.

Fast rolling
The rules for making attacks (pg. 220) have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order so make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same ballistic skill (if its a shooting attack) or the same weapon skill (if its a close combat attack). They must also have the same strength and armour penetration characteristics, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

m
I do. If some shots have to hit mod and others don’t they aren’t similar attacks.

 Super Ready wrote:
The problem with "not wanting to", is that you're actually breaking the rules doing so.
Also, your example is vastly exaggerated - bearing in mind the +1/-1 modifier cap, you're only looking at two different roll results thanks to terrain, and only then until the models out of cover are gone.

So let's say, using the example we've used so far, we have 2 models out of cover - but this time you're firing at them with that Skitarii Vanguard unit. You can still fast-roll 2 at a time, dropping to 1 at a time if 1 just model dies on a particular roll. Once both are dead - you can go back to fast-rolling the rest. It's really not that big a deal, time-wise.

U02dah4 wrote:
I role 3 individuals first one kills a model now dense terrain may switch on for example

Yes, and... that's exactly the point. In previous editions, units have suffered from having some models out in the open, but why shouldn't the models that are actually in cover, get the benefit of it?

No you are breaking no rules by fast rolling. The rolls are identical at the rime you make them so you may fast roll.

Your vanguard argument is that deliberately slow playing is OK because your only doing it a little. - scale is irrelevant its like saying cheating is OK but because you've only fixed a few dice. Individual rolling takes substantially more time to do in a situation where you are not required to do it. Even in your vanguard situation it could take a long time if say I'm fireing 90 shots and the two models outside are custodes.

You roll as a group now individual models are removed till all rolls are complete so it doesn't matter which shot removed it

How previous editions work is irrelevant to a rules discussion on the current edition.in this edition models within area terrain with the light cover rule do receive cover for being within it.

Dense requires that you cannot draw a line to all parts of at least one model in the unit without going over it which you can do at the point you fast roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
The way I see it is that this difference in cover kills off any chance of fast rolling until all the models in the open are gone.
Remember that attacks are, rules-wise, resolved on a model-by-model basis and fast rolling can only be used when it couldn't skew the results.

I dont see anything about modifiers in the fast rolling rule.

Fast rolling
The rules for making attacks (pg. 220) have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order so make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same ballistic skill (if its a shooting attack) or the same weapon skill (if its a close combat attack). They must also have the same strength and armour penetration characteristics, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

m
I do. If some shots have to hit mod and others don’t they aren’t similar attacks.

Agreed based on RAI but at the point you fast roll none have modifiers because all can draw LOS to all parts of atleast one model without going over dense terrain.

The fact that may change if you roll individually is irrelevant.

It’s not. Fast rolling let’s you roll similar things together if it won’t affect the outcome. If the outcome may differ based on rolling methods you’ve very right to insist someone play by the rules and slow roll, and not let them claim an optional speed-up rule can be used to make your guys easier to shoot.

The fast rolling rule is quoted above could you quote the specific part that states that if the outcome may alter based on different rolling methods then the fast rolling rules doesn't apply. If you cannot your argument is not RAW

As far as I can see at the point you fast roll they meet every criteria

To force your opponent to roll each individually is time wasteing

U02dah4 wrote:
No you are breaking no rules by fast rolling.

Under most other circumstances? Agreed.

The rolls are identical at the rime you make them so you may fast roll.

Except that they're not identical at the time you make them. This assumes that all the attacks happen at the same timing step. However, because each attack is considered individual, they're not - they happen in the order you make the attacks.
If you want to make the argument that all attacks happen simultaneously - you'd only ever kill one model per unit firing, because your opponent has to allocate all the attacks to the same model until it's dead, and that won't happen until they've made all those simultaneous saving throws.

Your vanguard argument is that deliberately slow playing is OK because your only doing it a little. - scale is irrelevant its like saying cheating is OK but because you've only fixed a few dice. Individual rolling takes substantially more time to do in a situation where you are not required to do it. Even in your vanguard situation it could take a long time if say I'm fireing 90 shots and the two models outside are custodes.

Understand that I'm not trying to purposely advocate playing slowly - I'm all for fast-rolling where it doesn't make a difference to the game. But under these circumstances, there is a definite difference and rolling all of the hit rolls together does break the rules - because you haven't applied the cover modifier for any shots taken after the shots that killed the out-of-cover models.

Dense requires that you cannot draw a line to all parts of at least one model in the unit without going over it which you can do at the point you fast roll

This is where I think you're making a critical mistake, and I can see why Dense cover gives pause for thought. It does dictate you subtract 1 from the hit roll unless you can draw that line "to every part of at least one model's base (...) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base".
However, you've missed a couple of things - firstly, that you "subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack". Treating attacks individually per the rules, you need to make this check when you make the attack, because they don't happen simultaneously.
Also, note the wording on that part about drawing a line. You draw that line to any model in the target unit, but it still asks you to specifically draw that line from "a single point on the attacking model's base". That is - one attacking model. Dense cover itself is referring to you rolling an individual attack here, otherwise why would it not use the same wording of "at least one attacking model's base" instead?

Agreed based on RAI but at the point you fast roll none have modifiers because all can draw LOS to all parts of atleast one model without going over dense terrain.
The fact that may change if you roll individually is irrelevant.

Again, fast-rolling is not actually a rule - it's a tip. It's there to save time, it's not there to change the outcome of a unit's firing. Because it's not a rule, it doesn't give you permission to treat the hit rolls as a single entity. You're considering the fast-roll as a single step, but that has no rules basis.

U02dah4 wrote:
The fast rolling rule is quoted above could you quote the specific part that states that if the outcome may alter based on different rolling methods then the fast rolling rules doesn't apply. If you cannot your argument is not RAW

As far as I can see at the point you fast roll they meet every criteria

To force your opponent to roll each individually is time wasteing

Show me where insisting someone follow the basic one attack at a time Rules is against those rules. If I disagree the attacks are similar I’m not going to let you attempt to gain advantage by rolling attacks together that should not have the same chance of success. That’s known as cheating where I come from.

Starting an argument instead of just rolling one at a time to properly resolve the situation... now THAT would be time wasting.

 Super Ready wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
No you are breaking no rules by fast rolling.

Under most other circumstances? Agreed.

The rolls are identical at the rime you make them so you may fast roll.

Except that they're not identical at the time you make them. This assumes that all the attacks happen at the same timing step. However, because each attack is considered individual, they're not - they happen in the order you make the attacks.
If you want to make the argument that all attacks happen simultaneously - you'd only ever kill one model per unit firing, because your opponent has to allocate all the attacks to the same model until it's dead, and that won't happen until they've made all those simultaneous saving throws.

Your vanguard argument is that deliberately slow playing is OK because your only doing it a little. - scale is irrelevant its like saying cheating is OK but because you've only fixed a few dice. Individual rolling takes substantially more time to do in a situation where you are not required to do it. Even in your vanguard situation it could take a long time if say I'm fireing 90 shots and the two models outside are custodes.

Understand that I'm not trying to purposely advocate playing slowly - I'm all for fast-rolling where it doesn't make a difference to the game. But under these circumstances, there is a definite difference and rolling all of the hit rolls together does break the rules - because you haven't applied the cover modifier for any shots taken after the shots that killed the out-of-cover models.

Dense requires that you cannot draw a line to all parts of at least one model in the unit without going over it which you can do at the point you fast roll

This is where I think you're making a critical mistake, and I can see why Dense cover gives pause for thought. It does dictate you subtract 1 from the hit roll unless you can draw that line "to every part of at least one model's base (...) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base".
However, you've missed a couple of things - firstly, that you "subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack". Treating attacks individually per the rules, you need to make this check when you make the attack, because they don't happen simultaneously.
Also, note the wording on that part about drawing a line. You draw that line to any model in the target unit, but it still asks you to specifically draw that line from "a single point on the attacking model's base". That is - one attacking model. Dense cover itself is referring to you rolling an individual attack here, otherwise why would it not use the same wording of "at least one attacking model's base" instead?

Agreed based on RAI but at the point you fast roll none have modifiers because all can draw LOS to all parts of atleast one model without going over dense terrain.
The fact that may change if you roll individually is irrelevant.

Again, fast-rolling is not actually a rule - it's a tip. It's there to save time, it's not there to change the outcome of a unit's firing. Because it's not a rule, it doesn't give you permission to treat the hit rolls as a single entity. You're considering the fast-roll as a single step, but that has no rules basis.

1) fine
2) no what are you on yes they are identical - follow the fast rolling rules its explicit " If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the attack one at a time making saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate".
3) you apply the cover modifier cover is applied on a model by model basis useing the sequence above dense terrain is not. That it makes a difference and is beneficial to one player is not a rules based reason for something not to work the way it does.

Regardless of intention it creates a time wasteing issue thats open to abuse on both sides it isn't fun and its not required. Imagine there's half an hour on the clock 3 turns in I fire 270 vanguard shots individually on that basis we never get to t4

4) im not treating the attacks individually i can group any that meet the fast rolling requirements same BS, S, AP D and affected by the same abilities and targeting same unit.

If my unit is not in dense terrain and half your unit is outside all my vanguard can see your model I can draw the lines from their base to one of yours. (Any vanguard that can't are not included) assuming they all can at that point none are affected by dense terrain it would not matter which individual model I selected therefore they are affected by the same rules at that point in time they have at that point a bs of 3 a s3 an ap0 and D1 with the same rad rule. They meet all requirements for fast-rolling .

5) its explaining how it works you may draw your lines between each of my models and your exposed model before I fast roll any of my dice once you are convinced each model individually meets the rule I will group them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
The fast rolling rule is quoted above could you quote the specific part that states that if the outcome may alter based on different rolling methods then the fast rolling rules doesn't apply. If you cannot your argument is not RAW

As far as I can see at the point you fast roll they meet every criteria

To force your opponent to roll each individually is time wasteing

Show me where insisting someone follow the basic one attack at a time Rules is against those rules. If I disagree the attacks are similar I’m not going to let you attempt to gain advantage by rolling attacks together that should not have the same chance of success. That’s known as cheating where I come from.

Starting an argument instead of just rolling one at a time to properly resolve the situation... now THAT would be time wasting.

Similarity is not a requirement in the fast rolls section only BS, S, Ap, D, and same rules which they have when you fast roll them. I am fast rolling to play in a timely manner the gain is minimal, the time wasting is potentially large. The rules allow you to fast roll therefore that is the chance of success they should have. Your dislike for the impact and wording of the rule does not change its function.

However their is no rule requireing a player to follow your request to roll individually when they meet the requirements to fast roll.

It is not cheating to follow the RAW. By using the same logic as your argument I could argue that you insisting i roll individually that you are attempting to gain an advantage you shouldn't have when i fast roll and that therefore you are therefore cheating. (only I have some evidence because you have invented that you can force me to individually roll.)

Under a tournament scenario though it is normally a requirement to play in a timely manner to not do so is considered unsportsmanly or cheating depending on the event. In a clock based event i would agree to your request only if we were using your time. Under any other scenario im calling a TO/Judge who will not insist i individually roll 200 dice individually when i meet the requirements to fast roll

I don't think I can put it any more bluntly than this.

Fast-rolling is not a rule.

If this doesn't sway your opinion then I don't think we're going to convince each other of our arguments either way, so I'll leave it there.