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a_typical_hero wrote:
It would be alot better if we'd get T8 and T9 on more vehicles for a playable price.

Sadly GW just demoted the T9 vehicals down to T8 so that definataly will not be happening.

Sadly we are stuck with a broken mess people who say eradicators are over costed even at 40ppm, people who can't believe how OP they are (compaired to other factions).
People who would like to have some ability to play something bigger than basic infantry without it being 1 rounded by a unit costing less.

Like seriously who actually thinks the current rules are good Balanced rules?

The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

So pointing out "aha, if you nerf Eradicators, I'll just take Attack Bikes" is fine - but it really just means MM attack bikes *should be nerfed as well* - and so on.

Basically GW have screwed things by arbitrarily saying MMs should be about 3 times as good as they were before. Which is fine, but where does that leave everyone else?

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

I said Melta not MM - but outside of Retributors you already excluded, which other factions get a man portable multi Melta? Fire Dragons are about 20 points a Melta shot, but they don’t have multi Melta. So since you changed the paradigm, which other infantry can take a multi Melta and claim it’s more expensive there?

Breton wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

I said Melta not MM - but outside of Retributors you already excluded, which other factions get a man portable multi Melta? Fire Dragons are about 20 points a Melta shot, but they don’t have multi Melta. So since you changed the paradigm, which other infantry can take a multi Melta and claim it’s more expensive there?

Well none. But you can compare with comparable weapons.
To which someone usually turns up to claim their long ranged lascannons are totally worth doing 1/3rd the damage or so.
Fire Dragons are 23 points and have a 12" range, so significantly worse.

Breton wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

I said Melta not MM - but outside of Retributors you already excluded, which other factions get a man portable multi Melta? Fire Dragons are about 20 points a Melta shot, but they don’t have multi Melta. So since you changed the paradigm, which other infantry can take a multi Melta and claim it’s more expensive there?

Heck I'd take a 24 inch range melta comparison aswell.

Crisis suits with 2 fusion blasters which are the equivalent of 1 eradicator are 30 points base for BS4+, T5 3w 3+Sv.
(For those interested they have 2A at 5+ in CC)

Their Fusion Blasters are 18 inch range and 15 points each, thats 60 points for -6 inch range hitting on 4+, not 3+.

Okay Crisis suits are not in a good place but even assuming you spend the CP to make them BS3+, Which is limited to 1 unit because GW logic. You can now reserve the eradicators for the same cost of CP but your still compairing 120 of eradicators vrs 180 points of crisis suits who have less range, not doctorines/super doctorines.

Please can you explain how any of that is remotely balanced?

Tyel wrote:

Breton wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

I said Melta not MM - but outside of Retributors you already excluded, which other factions get a man portable multi Melta? Fire Dragons are about 20 points a Melta shot, but they don’t have multi Melta. So since you changed the paradigm, which other infantry can take a multi Melta and claim it’s more expensive there?

Well none. .

So you want to discount everyone that can actually take a Multimelta then claim everyone else who can take a multimelta has to pay more? That’s... one way to do it.

Do firedragons get a Melta shot per approximately 20 points?

Does a special weapons Guard squad get 3 Melta shots per 45 or so points?

Oh, I see Adeptus Mechanicus can take 4 servitors with 2 MM’s for between 60 and 70 points. How much is that per Melta shot?

Breton wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Breton wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The issue is that a MM for 40 points *is* highly unusual outside the Marine codex - outside of say Retributors it doesn't exist. Most other faction comparisons are considerably more expensive.

I said Melta not MM - but outside of Retributors you already excluded, which other factions get a man portable multi Melta? Fire Dragons are about 20 points a Melta shot, but they don’t have multi Melta. So since you changed the paradigm, which other infantry can take a multi Melta and claim it’s more expensive there?

Well none. .

So you want to discount everyone that can actually take a Multimelta then claim everyone else who can take a multimelta has to pay more? That’s... one way to do it.

Do firedragons get a Melta shot per approximately 20 points?

Does a special weapons Guard squad get 3 Melta shots per 45 or so points?

Oh, I see Adeptus Mechanicus can take 4 servitors with 2 MM’s for between 60 and 70 points. How much is that per Melta shot?

We just ignoring that servitors are BS5+ not BS3+

Yeah Firedragons are 23 points per shot on a T3 1W platform thats still more than the 20 points per shot on a T5 3W platform that eradicator pay. Ignoring that Firedragons have 12 inch range vrs 24.

Melta needed to ignore invuln and/or go to S16 in melta range, NOT get extra shots. GW doesn't understand how to add consistency without moar dice apparently.

SecondTime wrote:
Melta needed to ignore invuln and/or go to S16 in melta range, NOT get extra shots. GW doesn't understand how to add consistency without moar dice apparently.

But... melta doesn't get extra shots in half range? They get extra damage.
They just boosted the multi-melta to have two shots

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Melta needed to ignore invuln and/or go to S16 in melta range, NOT get extra shots. GW doesn't understand how to add consistency without moar dice apparently.

But... melta doesn't get extra shots in half range? They get extra damage.
They just boosted the multi-melta to have two shots

And eradicators. The extra damage is only slightly better than the old reroll.

Ice_can wrote:


We just ignoring that servitors are BS5+ not BS3+

Yeah Firedragons are 23 points per shot on a T3 1W platform thats still more than the 20 points per shot on a T5 3W platform that eradicator pay. Ignoring that Firedragons have 12 inch range vrs 24.

Are they more expensive? The claim was units that can take Multimelta are more expensive not counting Retributors. Why Retributors don’t count, I don’t know. Other than anything that disproves the narrative can’t be allowed to count. And now, neither do the Servitors. Or the guard special weapons. Or the firedragons. Or anything else that gets on Melta shot per 20 or so points.

I said they don’t need to be nerfed, someone said facts do t matter, they stopped listening.

I pointed out a number of units getting a Melta shot per 20 or so points to prove it.

Those don’t count because some fictional unit that isn’t Retributtors have to pay more for their Multimelta shots.

I ask which fictional unit this is - the answer is none, but that isn’t important.

I point out more units getting a Melta shot per 20 or so points and we see even more “that doesn’t count because reasons unrelated to the claim”.

That would be more convincing if eradicators didn't have T5 and double the range.

SecondTime wrote:
That would be more convincing if eradicators didn't have T5 and double the range.

Nobody seems to be able to find these mysterious Melta units that cost more. But they sure can find new Reasons any unit that disproves the claim doesn’t count.

Eradicators are broken because they’re the only Melta unit with a model whose left boot is larger than the right boot manufactured in June after 2019 but before 2021, while being eligible to be painted in two different shades of green and two different shades of blue. Totally not because it’s a marine unit and very inline with price points.

They aren't even consistent with other marine units for the most part, though. The whole point of melta is that its low rate of fire and short range but very lethal to armor and heavy infantry once within range. Increasing its rate of fire should never have been on the table.

SecondTime wrote:
They aren't even consistent with other marine units for the most part, though. The whole point of melta is that its low rate of fire and short range but very lethal to armor and heavy infantry once within range. Increasing its rate of fire should never have been on the table.

They should have just handed out multimeltas base and given them an "ignore the penalty for moving and shooting". But they wanted variability in the kit.

Eradicators and multimeltas are obviously superior to all other forms of anti tank. Either they will be hugely buffed, or MMs and Eradicators will be nerfed.
In the former, you have an incredibly hostile meta for vehicles/monsters etc, so the later seems more likely.

Anyone who thinks eradicators are fine "cos servitors" isn't seriously arguing, they are just playing the internet.

SecondTime wrote:
They aren't even consistent with other marine units for the most part, though. The whole point of melta is that its low rate of fire and short range but very lethal to armor and heavy infantry once within range. Increasing its rate of fire should never have been on the table.

Bolter : Rapid Fire 1
Heavy Bolter: Heavy 3 +1S +1AP

Plasma Gun: Rapid Fire 1
Plasma Canon Heavy D3 Blast

Grav Gun: Rapid Fire 1
Grav Cannon + Amp Heavy 4

Meltagun Assault 1
Multimelta Heavy 2

Flamer assault D6
Heavy Flamer Heavy D6 +1s +1AP

Which part of that is it supposed to be consistent with? I mean the trend - such as it is - is the heavy version averages double the number of shots for everything but the heavy flamer.

I'm talking about total eradication ability. The multimelta used to be a blast weapon, so this is not very jarring. Maybe its too cheap now. Comparing eradicators to hellblasters just makes me very sad.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Since their codex release Necrons went up from winning 37.7% of their games to 54.4%.

With the exception of DA and UM all Marines went down in winrate, some significantly.

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SMWR_by_Chapter_Oct2020.png

But don't let statistics or insulting everybody who is not following your opinion as "not normal" get in your way. Push that post count up, boy.


p.s.
Haven't seen a single winning list on Goonhammer that spammed Eradicator. But vehicles are dead, don't let you tell otherwise.

Disagreeing with your interpretation of a statistic wouldn’t make him wrong, and definitely
Didn’t in this case either.

Tyel wrote:


Eradicators and multimeltas are obviously superior to all other forms of anti tank..

All evidence to the contrary.

Anyone who thinks eradicators are fine "cos servitors" isn't seriously arguing, they are just playing the internet.

Says the guy lying about the claim. The claim was others pay more for Melta shots. The the claim was well those don’t count. And neither do those. Or those. Or those. And now the claim isn’t cost at all. The problem is we can scroll up and see where you’re lying.

Got to admit that Meltas should be something which cripples or kills a target if it connects. It should be high strength and huge damage, but short range. Multimeltas should have the same short range but more shots, and both should be doing D6 damage, flat 6 if in half range, and should be at least S14.

SecondTime wrote:
I'm talking about total eradication ability. The multimelta used to be a blast weapon, so this is not very jarring. Maybe its too cheap now. Comparing eradicators to hellblasters just makes me very sad.

They’re all there. Which trend didn’t the Melta vs Multimelta not follow?

Multimeltas have always had intermediate max range.

SecondTime wrote:
Multimeltas have always had intermediate max range.

It’s a simple question. Which Marine Heavy aren’t they consistent with when the trend is about double the shots for the heavy version.

Breton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
They aren't even consistent with other marine units for the most part, though. The whole point of melta is that its low rate of fire and short range but very lethal to armor and heavy infantry once within range. Increasing its rate of fire should never have been on the table.

Bolter : Rapid Fire 1
Heavy Bolter: Heavy 3 +1S +1AP

Plasma Gun: Rapid Fire 1
Plasma Canon Heavy D3 Blast

Grav Gun: Rapid Fire 1
Grav Cannon + Amp Heavy 4

Meltagun Assault 1
Multimelta Heavy 2

Flamer assault D6
Heavy Flamer Heavy D6 +1s +1AP

Which part of that is it supposed to be consistent with? I mean the trend - such as it is - is the heavy version averages double the number of shots for everything but the heavy flamer.

I'm not talking about the multimelta stat line. I'm talking about its cost and the total eradication ability of eradicators. The prices for these items aren't consistent with other marine costs. That's what I'm talking about. Not heavy weapon trends.

@ Breton:

2 Melta shots for 40 points isn't outside the norm.

I think it's not just the 2 Melta shots for 40 points, it's a combination of the 2 Melta Shots, at 24'' range on a BS3+ basis, on a T5, W3, 3+ durability profile...
Note that the units you compare them to are (if I'm not mistaken) all Marine Units.

SecondTime wrote:
I'm not talking about the multimelta stat line. I'm talking about its cost and the total eradication ability of eradicators. The prices for these items aren't consistent with other marine costs. That's what I'm talking about. Not heavy weapon trends.

Obviously.

SecondTime wrote:
They aren't even consistent with other marine units for the most part, though. The whole point of melta is that its low rate of fire and short range but very lethal to armor and heavy infantry once within range. Increasing its rate of fire should never have been on the table.

That’s why your expanded thought is about Melta instead of Total Eradication. And why we’re backpedaling our claim. Especially as someone else just made the unintentional point the increase of MM to 2 shots is a far delayed reaction to the removal of templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Breton:

2 Melta shots for 40 points isn't outside the norm.

I think it's not just the 2 Melta shots for 40 points, it's a combination of the 2 Melta Shots, at 24'' range on a BS3+ basis, on a T5, W3, 3+ durability profile...
Note that the units you compare them to are (if I'm not mistaken) all Marine Units.

Yeah, I’ve pointed out a few times how ridiculous the changing claim has gotten. Other people pay more. Except they don’t. But you’re getting us closer to that model with a left boot larger than the right boot while sacrificing a goat at midnight criteria. Guard special weapons get it cheaper. But don’t count. Retributors get it cheaper. But don’t count. AM Servitors get it cheaper. But don’t count. Fire Dragons get it cheaper, but don’t count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
Multimeltas have always had intermediate max range.

Their range didn’t change.

Well, seems like we aren't agreeing about this. I think its as simple as eradicators and multimeltas (particularly on attack bikes) are undercosted at the present time.

SecondTime wrote:
Well, seems like we aren't agreeing about this. I think its as simple as eradicators and multimeltas (particularly on attack bikes) are undercosted at the present time.

Which this? You trying to imply the range of Melta has changed? Your attempt to say your paragraph about Melta - I mean Total Wradication that didn’t even mention Total Eradication but didn’t mention Melta - was actually about Total Eradication?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
Well, seems like we aren't agreeing about this. I think its as simple as eradicators and multimeltas (particularly on attack bikes) are undercosted at the present time.

They cost the same there as everywhere else in the list.

Breton, do you honestly think Eradicators are well-balanced?

"They cost the same there as everywhere else in the list."

Yes, and I'm saying they should cost more in these cases to keep them in line with the other choices. "In line" doesn't mean the "the same cost".

My range comment was in response to this: "Multimeltas should have the same short range but more shots"