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 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh look some of the top players and DE didn't take 1st.

...the tournament isn't over yet, and DE is obviously overrepresented in the upper echelons so far

Plus #1 is Nayden and I assume it's his DE/Ynnari mix.

There are 5 rounds there, is it a 6 round event?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh look some of the top players and DE didn't take 1st.

...the tournament isn't over yet, and DE is obviously overrepresented in the upper echelons so far

Plus #1 is Nayden and I assume it's his DE/Ynnari mix.

There are 5 rounds there, is it a 6 round event?

8 Rounds actually. Two more rounds on Sunday.

Edit: See above, beat me to it.

https://dallasopen.org/warhammer-40k-gt/

 alextroy wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh look some of the top players and DE didn't take 1st.

...the tournament isn't over yet, and DE is obviously overrepresented in the upper echelons so far

Plus #1 is Nayden and I assume it's his DE/Ynnari mix.

There are 5 rounds there, is it a 6 round event?

8 Rounds actually. Two more rounds on Sunday.

Thats an insane amount of rounds lol, I'm never been to an 8 round, i've been to 300+ people Majors with 5 and 6 rounds, why is it 8 rounds?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh look some of the top players and DE didn't take 1st.

...the tournament isn't over yet, and DE is obviously overrepresented in the upper echelons so far

Plus #1 is Nayden and I assume it's his DE/Ynnari mix.

There are 5 rounds there, is it a 6 round event?

8 Rounds actually. Two more rounds on Sunday.

Thats an insane amount of rounds lol, I'm never been to an 8 round, i've been to 300+ people Majors with 5 and 6 rounds, why is it 8 rounds?

an unhealthy obsession with ending up with only 1 undefeated player at the end most likely.

After playing quite a few games against the new Drukhari my targeted nerfs - if any - would be the following.

* Hike up raiders a bit. They are currently a super transport that basically unlocks the army, provides open-topped, has invuln, and can move fast over terrain. No other transport in the game comes close to its power and are most of time many times more expensive.

* Dark Technomancers needs to change so you can't bypass the negatives just because you are running flamers.

* Book of Rust and campaign books in general just needs to be barred from competing as these are beta patches and not final products.

....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Wyches got +1A, -1Ap, improved special weapons, -1 point per model, buffed No Escape, Advance and Charge turn 2, and the ability to pick always the best drug or double-roll 2 drugs. Incubi got +1WS, +1A, +1D, Unreliable Fight Last as an ability in exchange for basically nothing.

And its like "but that TRANSPORT they just jumped out of though! GOTTA make sure to nerf that so it's as non-functional as every other transport in the game!"

 Eldarsif wrote:
After playing quite a few games against the new Drukhari my targeted nerfs - if any - would be the following.

* Hike up raiders a bit. They are currently a super transport that basically unlocks the army, provides open-topped, has invuln, and can move fast over terrain. No other transport in the game comes close to its power and are most of time many times more expensive.

* Dark Technomancers needs to change so you can't bypass the negatives just because you are running flamers.

* Book of Rust and campaign books in general just needs to be barred from competing as these are beta patches and not final products.

When you've played against them was it a planned game where you knew you'd be facing DE or in a PUG setting where your list had to account for the entire meta? I only ask because tailoring for DE can make the matchup seem less oppressive than would feel against a theoretical* TAC tournament list.

*No list is ever truly designed to fight everything. The aim is to beat the meta and minimize your weakness to bad matchups while feasting on anything your force shines against.

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Wyches got +1A, -1Ap, improved special weapons, -1 point per model, buffed No Escape, Advance and Charge turn 2, and the ability to pick always the best drug or double-roll 2 drugs. Incubi got +1WS, +1A, +1D, Unreliable Fight Last as an ability in exchange for basically nothing.

And its like "but that TRANSPORT they just jumped out of though! GOTTA make sure to nerf that so it's as non-functional as every other transport in the game!"

For one that transport doubles the toughness of its occupants, gives them a 10 wound buffer with a decent save, all while still giving them the freedom to shoot and charge and giving them the best movement type in the game. No other transport does any two of these things let alone all three.

On the other hand, buffing what a transporter can carry for an army that wants everything to ride in a transporter also buffs the transport as it increases the value of their carrying capacity. For a transport that was just buffed itself, this is a bit of a force multiplier and can easily push things out of balance even if its cargo is only a point or two undervalued on a per-model basis. Six transports and six 11 model units could easily be worth ~150 - 250 points depending on just how off the values are and if they're carrying something like a succubus who's, at present, basically a smash captain that can get a T2 charge off 100% of the time.

In light of this, it could make sense to hit the transport 'unfairly' as nerfs to the units they carry hurt off-meta foot DE lists in a way that may not be required.

People are just jealous their transports are crap (and they are lol, look at the Impulsor, literally pointless to take) what really needs to happen is GW needs to make 80% of all other transports cheaper or better.

Even if Raiders are +5 or +10pts you will still see 6 of them on the table and you will still complain about the real problem, DT Wrackifiers.

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Wyches got +1A, -1Ap, improved special weapons, -1 point per model, buffed No Escape, Advance and Charge turn 2, and the ability to pick always the best drug or double-roll 2 drugs. Incubi got +1WS, +1A, +1D, Unreliable Fight Last as an ability in exchange for basically nothing.

And its like "but that TRANSPORT they just jumped out of though! GOTTA make sure to nerf that so it's as non-functional as every other transport in the game!"

All true. But that transport doesn't have to have changed dramatically for it to be problematic. The army has changed around it, and rely on it as a key asset. The whole thing turns around that transport. It's a requirement for many units to do their jobs.

I'm not saying nerf it, but there's a reason why you see as many of them as possible in every list. I'm just saying make it so you encourage people to take fewer, and a lot of the possible balance issues are toned down. There's an entire roundtable of competitive players/experts stating the same thing. It's under-costed.

But again, we're not due to be seeing points changes soon in all likelihood. So there will be plenty of time to see how this shakes out in the meanwhile.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
After playing quite a few games against the new Drukhari my targeted nerfs - if any - would be the following.

* Hike up raiders a bit. They are currently a super transport that basically unlocks the army, provides open-topped, has invuln, and can move fast over terrain. No other transport in the game comes close to its power and are most of time many times more expensive.

* Dark Technomancers needs to change so you can't bypass the negatives just because you are running flamers.

* Book of Rust and campaign books in general just needs to be barred from competing as these are beta patches and not final products.

When you've played against them was it a planned game where you knew you'd be facing DE or in a PUG setting where your list had to account for the entire meta? I only ask because tailoring for DE can make the matchup seem less oppressive than would feel against a theoretical* TAC tournament list.

I have played planned games and PUG games against Drukhari. I do, however, not tailor my army list to any specific army as my goal is to find a list I can play that is versatile. If I tailor only for one faction then I will likely lose most of the other games in a tourney.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I have played planned games and PUG games against Drukhari. I do, however, not tailor my army list to any specific army as my goal is to find a list I can play that is versatile. If I tailor only for one faction then I will likely lose most of the other games in a tourney.

Gotcha. I just wanted to try to get a fix on your perspective so I knew where the observations were coming from.

 StrayIight wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Wyches got +1A, -1Ap, improved special weapons, -1 point per model, buffed No Escape, Advance and Charge turn 2, and the ability to pick always the best drug or double-roll 2 drugs. Incubi got +1WS, +1A, +1D, Unreliable Fight Last as an ability in exchange for basically nothing.

And its like "but that TRANSPORT they just jumped out of though! GOTTA make sure to nerf that so it's as non-functional as every other transport in the game!"

All true. But that transport doesn't have to have changed dramatically for it to be problematic. The army has changed around it, and rely on it as a key asset. The whole thing turns around that transport. It's a requirement for many units to do their jobs.

I'm not saying nerf it, but there's a reason why you see as many of them as possible in every list. I'm just saying make it so you encourage people to take fewer, and a lot of the possible balance issues are toned down. There's an entire roundtable of competitive players/experts stating the same thing. It's under-costed.

But again, we're not due to be seeing points changes soon in all likelihood. So there will be plenty of time to see how this shakes out in the meanwhile.

The really funny thing is about this. You can take 9 Venoms and do the same thing with DT flamers and 3x5 Incubi and everyone will complain about still, they will complain no matter what b.c they have to change their tactics and lists.

If the Raider went up 15pts I would still take 6 of them b.c my list needs 6 of them. I would just drop my 5 man court unit and nothing really will change. I'll still have 6 raiders, i'll still have lots of Incubi and Wyches jumping out of them, i'll still have Hellions, you just don't have to kill 1 extra tarpit unit that I waste most the time anyways b.c I try to bait with them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The really funny thing is about this. You can take 9 Venoms and do the same thing with DT flamers and 3x5 Incubi and everyone will complain about still, they will complain no matter what b.c they have to change their tactics and lists.

If the Raider went up 15pts I would still take 6 of them b.c my list needs 6 of them. I would just drop my 5 man court unit and nothing really will change. I'll still have 6 raiders, i'll still have lots of Incubi and Wyches jumping out of them, i'll still have Hellions, you just don't have to kill 1 extra tarpit unit that I waste most the time anyways b.c I try to bait with them.

Is this a troll or do you just miss the point on a roll of 2+?

Nobody is saying that people shouldn't account for DE in the meta and update their lists. What they're saying is that you can do this, still have a pretty bad matchup against DE, all while now having more weaknesses against the lists you have to beat to face the DE in the first place. This creates a toxic meta where everybody has to tailor against exactly one faction while that faction's play rate sits at like 8% max. Contrast this to marines who'd be tailored against if they were a 48% win-rate army just because they're dirt common and you'll probably face 2 of them in any given 5-round tournament and you start to see how meta and balance interact.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


The really funny thing is about this. You can take 9 Venoms and do the same thing with DT flamers and 3x5 Incubi and everyone will complain about still, they will complain no matter what b.c they have to change their tactics and lists.

If the Raider went up 15pts I would still take 6 of them b.c my list needs 6 of them. I would just drop my 5 man court unit and nothing really will change. I'll still have 6 raiders, i'll still have lots of Incubi and Wyches jumping out of them, i'll still have Hellions, you just don't have to kill 1 extra tarpit unit that I waste most the time anyways b.c I try to bait with them.

Which is why (as I said in an earlier post here tonight), if it turns out there's a continuing problem with DE being too dominant in the meta, I wouldn't just increase points on the Raider. If all the key units cost more, the armies real strength - it's ability to out trade - is directly impacted. The raider is merely the key to the way army plays.

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Wyches got +1A, -1Ap, improved special weapons, -1 point per model, buffed No Escape, Advance and Charge turn 2, and the ability to pick always the best drug or double-roll 2 drugs. Incubi got +1WS, +1A, +1D, Unreliable Fight Last as an ability in exchange for basically nothing.

And its like "but that TRANSPORT they just jumped out of though! GOTTA make sure to nerf that so it's as non-functional as every other transport in the game!"

We are all grownups here and should be able to discuss things as such.

Wyches footslogging across the field would die to a stiff breeze. This goes for everything in the army which is why Venoms and Raiders(mostly venoms though) have been historically popular in lists as they enable the army to actually do a thing. +1T is also a huge change considering the amount of S6 weaponry in the game. One should not underestimate the significance of that buff.

The reason I think the raider needs a price hike is that I have played quite a few games against Mass Venom Wych armies and Mass Raider Wych armies and the Raider armies outperform considerably. There is a reason why they are popular and it is because they unlock the army's maximum potential. I just suggest playing against/with the different type of transports to get a feel for how they perform.

I do also think that the +1T changes a lot because there is a decent plethora of S6 weapons that are now wounding on 4s on a vehicle with an invuln save whereas before they were wounding on 3s. This has little to do with the Heavy Bolter increase unless you can provide a public statement from the GW devs claiming as much. Not every army fields Heavy Bolters and even the Marines are fielding various meltas more than Heavy Bolters these days.

I agree that the pricing on the Dark Lance compared to dissies is weird, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a overreaction to how popular dissies were in 8th. Raiders could maybe go up about 10 points(that would be 80-90 point nerf to the mass raider armies I have been facing against), make Dark Lance cost 5 points and dissies free. Then we'll see how that goes and go from there.

Wyches and Incubi weren't really popular in the old edition because they really didn't pack a punch. Now, I will agree that they might be overcorrected(wyches mostly) but I imagine we'll see at best a 1 point increase. Which would net a 80 point nerf to some of the cult lists I have faced.

We will of course see how things will settle when Ad Mech hits. If Drukhari keeps their track record after more Non-Marine armies start showing up then we definitely have a problem codex.

+5 points for raiders, +5 points for DL on raiders, +10 points for succubus, fix DT, fix Stupid Succubus, maybe do something to the MW driveby strat (not sure it's really necessary, but it is out of keeping with all the other 9th edition MW strats), and then wait and see if that corrects the problem.

If it doesn't, you can start looking at stuff like Wyches and Incubi and Courts, but I really think that if you raise the cost of current power lists by 75-100ish points and remove the extra 150ish free points of power you currently get from broken DT and broken succubus, the problem probably goes away.

yukishiro1 wrote:
maybe do something to the MW driveby strat (not sure it's really necessary, but it is out of keeping with all the other 9th edition MW strats).

This I think I'd leave as is. My suspicion is (assuming there was any thought behind it at all), that it's not as capped due to DE having no presence in the Psychic phase. It looks more reasonable when you remember Smite etc is not a thing for Drukhari. It acts as a kind of compensation?
It needs some careful play and a fair bit of investment to be at it's most powerful also.

I'd be ok with it going up a CP if it were causing a lot of issues in practice however.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The really funny thing is about this. You can take 9 Venoms and do the same thing with DT flamers and 3x5 Incubi and everyone will complain about still, they will complain no matter what b.c they have to change their tactics and lists.

If the Raider went up 15pts I would still take 6 of them b.c my list needs 6 of them. I would just drop my 5 man court unit and nothing really will change. I'll still have 6 raiders, i'll still have lots of Incubi and Wyches jumping out of them, i'll still have Hellions, you just don't have to kill 1 extra tarpit unit that I waste most the time anyways b.c I try to bait with them.

Is this a troll or do you just miss the point on a roll of 2+?

Nobody is saying that people shouldn't account for DE in the meta and update their lists. What they're saying is that you can do this, still have a pretty bad matchup against DE, all while now having more weaknesses against the lists you have to beat to face the DE in the first place. This creates a toxic meta where everybody has to tailor against exactly one faction while that faction's play rate sits at like 8% max. Contrast this to marines who'd be tailored against if they were a 48% win-rate army just because they're dirt common and you'll probably face 2 of them in any given 5-round tournament and you start to see how meta and balance interact.

Are you trolling?

Lets say DE got nerf and now are at a 55%% win rate, lets say they gain popularity and has 3-4 out of 60 players there on average (so 7.5% popularity the same as custodes) Are you still going to say they are toxic for the meta b.c you KNOW they will be there and you KNOW they will threaten your list? At what point are they not toxic to you?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Are you trolling?

Lets say DE got nerf and now are at a 55%% win rate, lets say they gain popularity and has 3-4 out of 60 players there on average (so 7.5% popularity the same as custodes) Are you still going to say they are toxic for the meta b.c you KNOW they will be there and you KNOW they will threaten your list? At what point are they not toxic to you?

I think that would be a significant improvement to what we have now and because they're not posting a 60 to 80% win rate outside of mirror matches you could probably beat them without devoting 2/3rds of your list to the attempt. Right now, there are armies that are otherwise solid that could 100% tailor against DE and still not be favored against a TAC DE list. This is where you get serious meta warping imbalance from and this is currently exactly where DE are at.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Are you trolling?

Lets say DE got nerf and now are at a 55%% win rate, lets say they gain popularity and has 3-4 out of 60 players there on average (so 7.5% popularity the same as custodes) Are you still going to say they are toxic for the meta b.c you KNOW they will be there and you KNOW they will threaten your list? At what point are they not toxic to you?

I think that would be a significant improvement to what we have now and because they're not posting a 60 to 80% win rate outside of mirror matches you could probably beat them without devoting 2/3rds of your list to the attempt. Right now, there are armies that are otherwise solid that could 100% tailor against DE and still not be favored against a TAC DE list. This is where you get serious meta warping imbalance from and this is currently exactly where DE are at.

So to you it would not be toxic? with even MORE DE players than now and with basically the same amount of vehicles, incbui, wyches, and hellions? You still need to kill the same 6 raiders. Im just making sure your not Biased against DE being a player in the meta and you want them out of it completely, b.c I have been told many times already that DE should not even be in the meta at all b.c that means the meta has to change.

Guess what, meta changes all the time and it will never be stagnate, if not DE changing it, Admech will, after Admech, orks will, after Orks, new Sisters will, and so on, just wait till Guard or CWE gets updated, you think Raiders are tough, wait till you get insane Falcons again lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
So to you it would not be toxic? with even MORE DE players than now and with basically the same amount of vehicles, incbui, wyches, and hellions? You still need to kill the same 6 raiders. Im just making sure your not Biased against DE being a player in the meta and you want them out of it completely, b.c I have been told many times already that DE should not even be in the meta at all b.c that means the meta has to change.

Guess what, meta changes all the time and it will never be stagnate, if not DE changing it, Admech will, after Admech, orks will, after Orks, new Sisters will, and so on, just wait till Guard or CWE gets updated, you think Raiders are tough, wait till you get insane Falcons again lol.

My issue isn't with how DE play, it's that they're currently so overwhelmingly good that they can choose to play their game with little regard to counter play and are likely to be so strong that meta adjustments alone won't be enough to make them 'fair' at the higher ends of tournaments. If they're tuned down to around where Quinns and SoB have been sitting that lets them be strong and lets other lists have a chance to beat them with an acceptable degree of skew towards countering them. They'd fit into the meta at that point rather than defining the meta.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I'm positive points can be rejiggered for every faction down the line, but I find it disingenuous that DE need to be immediately hit before the meta has had a chance to adapt when Eradicators, blade guard vets, apothecaries etc. etc. have all gotten a free pass for 9 months.

None of those things led to Space Marines being nearly as dominant as Dark Eldar are now (despite the fact that everyone but them and Necrons were stuck in eighth edition land) my man. You don't have to like it, but it's true.

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Agreed, I think the Raiders/Ravagers should be 5/15 more points, then remove the cost of dissies and see what happens in regards to Venoms and other shooting units.

Nerfing Imperium melta units would impact Drukhari a lot less than most other factions.

I don't know why Lightning Fast Reactions is 1CP, that seems clearly too good, GW should nerf that and every other OP Stratagem DE have as well as the free 2CP before nerfing Incubi and Wyches. Removing Blade Artists would hurt Incubi a little and Wyches some more, but I wouldn't touch their points costs immediately and Blade Artists is just a superfluous rule with Wych weapons being loaded to the gills with AP already.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh look some of the top players and DE didn't take 1st.

...the tournament isn't over yet, and DE is obviously overrepresented in the upper echelons so far

Plus #1 is Nayden and I assume it's his DE/Ynnari mix.

He have CWE detachment with crafters and masterful shots ofcourse, with 2 spiners, falcon and 3 units of dark reapers with rapid shot.
With the DT detachment where he have 3 wracks and 3 raiders, its mostly shooting list and the terrain is super heavy, you could hide 5-6 raiders without the opponent having chance to get a angle, if he dont move in the middle of the table. Ynnari are just 2 units of Incubi, with Visarch and one 5 man wych squad for the patrol.
2 of the 3 undefeated players have some amount of LOS shooting, the Admech have 3 scorpions and 3 transports. 2 damage LOS shooting seem to be very effective vs drukhari.

Marin wrote:
2 damage LOS shooting seem to be very effective vs drukhari.

(gasp!) What a revelation....

ccs wrote:

Marin wrote:
2 damage LOS shooting seem to be very effective vs drukhari.

(gasp!) What a revelation....

and not a Whirlwind in sight

 vict0988 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
....People do know that Raiders basically existed before in exactly the same form, and just gained T5-T6 and +1 Transport Capacity, correct? And the +1 toughness was essentially put in because GW decided to double the damage on Heavy Bolters without increasing their cost? And also that before people typically took Raiders with Black Heart where they had 6+FNP and were actually usually more durable than they are now?

The Dark Lance significantly increased in power, and I think it's 100% silly that it's 0pts and the worse Disintegrator is 5pts. But it's wild to me that Raiders are now like "omgwtfbbq y this transport no 150pts???" when compared to other stuff in the codex that's tearing it up in events, not a whole lot changed.

Agreed, I think the Raiders/Ravagers should be 5/15 more points, then remove the cost of dissies and see what happens in regards to Venoms and other shooting units.

Nerfing Imperium melta units would impact Drukhari a lot less than most other factions.

I don't know why Lightning Fast Reactions is 1CP, that seems clearly too good, GW should nerf that and every other OP Stratagem DE have as well as the free 2CP before nerfing Incubi and Wyches. Removing Blade Artists would hurt Incubi a little and Wyches some more, but I wouldn't touch their points costs immediately and Blade Artists is just a superfluous rule with Wych weapons being loaded to the gills with AP already.

It's 1CP because you cannot stack modifiers anymore and a -1 to hit on one unit really isn't that powerful in general. There are other -1 to hit strats floating around that are also 1CP too.

A lot of complaints I've seen about the more recent editions of 40k is how useless vehicles are. Now that a faction has some good vehicles, the reaction is to...nerf them?

I get that they're transports that do the actual job of transporting well and fairly efficiently, but they're less durable than in previous editions and there's really nothing else to decide on where to spend your shots. Unless there's ravagers or planes or talos/cronos, I guess?

The idea of adding a few points here, a few points there, to varying units (apart from the jetbikes which are clearly meant to be 20 points, not the misprinted 10) seems strange to me in that it just means that people recognize that they're good for their points, but many armies have units that are good for their points. That's why they're spammed and/or show up in *every* list.

The new codex is a strong and modern codex built specifically for this edition. I would be surprised if it didn't play better than armies still using the old edition (also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't because...GW, and it's not a power armor or popular army).

A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread seems to be that people have gotten used to the game being about the last six or seven releases--big, tough, elite armies. In fact, I think this might be the first codex release of this edition that can even be close to being considered a horde army. I guess what I'm seeing is that people have gotten used to playing the game a specific way against specific opponents that they don't want that to change, and that they would rather have the game remain the way it is and screw over the nonmarines and their equivalents than have to diversify their armies and/or tactics in a way that might have them not listhammering against space marines all the time.

Transports aren't a 'nice to have' for the Drukhari, the whole army concept is built around their use. If they are overpriced, as they were after the Munitorum Field Manual, the whole army is basically crippled.