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Argive wrote:To reiterate - Why do you need the flagship product (SM) to include women rather then create a new product (new faction) that includes women which will become a flagship product by the merit of it being awesome?

Because why create a new flagship when you have a perfectly good one that has no real reason to be mono-gender?

Also, good luck creating an all-female flagship faction that will be able to rival the simple cultural inertia that the Astartes have. And at that point, you'd have had an easier job just making women Astartes canon.

I think SOB can quite easily become the new flagship model range (they kind of have already?)

They really haven't - nothing in 40k, or even all of GW, comes close to the sheer marketability of Space Marines, and you'd be a fool to say otherwise. I'm sure you're not a fool.

And for all intents and purposes they are female space marines... Power armour human with bolters. Make them T4 for game purposes give them two wounds and be done with it..

Space Marines are more than power armour and bolters. By that same virtue, Sisters are the same as Custodes.

Hell, in terms of game similarity, Sisters are closer to Admech, not Space Marines. They occupy very different aesthetics, gamemplay, and background.

Again... It just seems like lazy activism pushing an agenda...

And what agenda would that be? And why would that agenda be a problem?

Im sorry but I've read through the responses and the ensuing conversational and all I really see is a bunch of hyperbole, vileness and Ludacris mental gymnastics. It doesn't matter and its fake make believe fiction that has no reflection on the real world nor should it.

Cool, so it's fake fiction - so it should come second to *real world concerns and issues*, yes?

As you said yourself - it's fake make believe fiction. Why should fake make believe fiction dictate what head I can and can't put on my little war dollies?

Its sad we have to tip toe around issues and any personal views that don't toe the line immediately get reported and labelled as <insetr offense buzzword> because someone's feelings get hurt.

What issues are there to tiptoe around? That women want representation? Why would that be an problem for you?

Are people so weak willed they cant abide by words on the internet and get upset about every little thing?

The only people getting upset are the ones clinging to "fake make believe fiction".

Why do we entertain this attitude? Why allow people to make everything about them, and drag the world around them to their point of pathetic weakness?
I really find these views abhorrent.

Quite - imagine using "fake make believe fiction" to exclude women from the flagship faction.

As explained by many others almost nobody wants any more space marine models.. whether they have a male or female genitals.

No-one's asking for models. They're asking to change the lore. That only costs ink (or even less, if GW choose to make their statement online).

How can you people not realise its a very sexist/racist view in the first place?

Please, enlighten us, arbiter of sexism. And I don't remember when race was brought into this. Funny, that.

Do you people not think saying that women/ <insert group identity> will only feel included and want to play a game if there is a woman/<instert minority> model is in itself kind of insulting to women and minorities?

If women and minority groups are asking (which they are), then no, it's not insulting at all.

But obviously, you choose to plug your ears when you hear about that, which I can't help.

Do they need your approval of female space marines before they can play? How dare you say any specific category of human needs help simply because of the category of race/gender. This logic follows to its conclusion is abhorrent.. and that is what we call "the woke" and at its very core is basically dehumanising..

Mate, people of all groups are asking for this. I don't know why you're trying to act like it's only men calling for this. Almost like you just assume that it's men you're talking to online.

If you want your models certain way - go for it.

But why demand it on behalf of other people?

Or, how about putting this the other way - why do you care if someone has women Space Marines, or if GW says that women can be Space Marines? No-one's demanding that you change your little war dollies, because we know how sad that would make you. But why do you care when other people do?

What kind of ego do you have to think you speak on anyone's behalf but your own and categorise people in groups like everyone is the same..

Because I'm not speaking on my behalf. The fact that you're utterly ignorant of women actually calling for this is exactly the kind of exclusionary and dismissive behaviour we're talking about.

This is absolute lunacy and the community really needs to start standing up for this nonsense.. I know many people are scared to speak up but by god its about time...

Christ, you enjoying keeping that gate nailed shut? We're asking for women to be present in the flagship line of a toy soldiers game. It's not a big deal. Why on earth do you feel so threatened by that?

I love this community but this is becoming unbearable cringe fest... Just because some people in America think the world needs to be a certain way, does not mean the rest of the world has to conform and shut about it because we might hurt their feelings and allow this lunacy to go on. We are a global community ffs...

Yeah, it's a global community - and women are in that community.

Maybe listen to them more, instead of dismissing them.

Sweet jesus, you really did go off the rails.

Animus wrote:They are very masculine in concept and presentation. Taking that away is homogenisation to the current trend.

"Very" masculine? I'm not seeing rippling pectorals, save for the stylised BA armour. The codpiece is fairly understated. In fact, minus the head, and you could have anyone in that armour. Almost like that's why they're kinda popular as a blank slate...

So, no, it's not homogenisation - Space Marines are Space Marines regardless of their gender, because they're so much more than that.

So it's not the fact they're men it's that they're men. Thanks, but women can still empathise with men.

Women can empathise with men, but representation isn't about empathising. I'm not really sure where you dreamt that idea up.

Again - answer the question - what's wrong with women being part of the mainline flagship faction? Without using the word "lore" or "established", please.

Again, where did I claim authority?

You said that representation was a joke. That was a claim to authority or fact, made implicitly. Don't try and walk that back.

I know what representation is

*citation needed*, because all your comments indicate you have no clue at all, considering you're tying it to empathy, which misses the point completely.

I know it to be a farce because I know people are perfectly capable of enjoying things that they or people like them aren't in. That's because of empathy.

Point proven - empathy has nothing to do with representation. This is something you'd be aware of if you knew what representation was.

You might be on something, but it's not the ball. As far as I saw he was saying men's clubs were okay, which I really can't see being a big problem outside of schmoozey corporate types.

It was explicitly said that they were okay making environments toxic towards women. In what world is that something to be applauded?

I'm not talking "this club just happens to be all men", this is literally "we're driving women away". That's messed up.

Sticking with the fluff isn't a bad faith argument

The question is simple: do you value made up words over the enjoyment and inclusion of other human beings?

don't want to see it changed so that someone else might just theoretically enjoy it more.

There's no theory about it. I'd enjoy it a hell of a lot more.

Almost any change to the fluff is met with resistance, ideologically motivated ones understandably more so.

And is that supposed to be an excuse?

Argive wrote:In the same vein would a woman's only wargaming club be ok?
Generally curious to know what people think.

We had a woman's only swimming from 8-9pm on Wednesdays at my old pool for example.

Women are historically more excluded and cast out than men are, and women's only spaces tend to exist to avoid male "interference" - which I'm sure you don't need me to elaborate on. Men's only spaces (and by that, I refer to communally enforced ones, like the swimming pool) don't exist because there is very little threat from women. Again, this is not a blanket statement, but simply a statistical fact.

 Argive wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Blinkfox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Blinkfox wrote:Wanting non-male SM solely because of a social problem you profess to exist makes you a pseudo-Marxist.

It does exist though. Can't ignore that point.

Animus wrote:Most people are just fine at empathising with others, those who can't do it or won't do it will not magically be corrected by female space marines.

But their arguments will be reduced to what I suspect it's always been - disliking women in their territory. They won't have lore to support their behaviour, won't have "but muh canon" - it will be reduced solely to "I just don't want women in my boys club".

And frankly, I don't think that's defensible.

I might get immense amounts of hate for that, but if a certain club (not the whole community, a single club) does not want women (or any other social group) among them, it's fine. Anyway, that's just a side note.
As for the upper quote, I still think that foregrounding a social problem (let's agree that it exists exactly as you describe it, for the sake of argument), making it a reason for a lore change and considering other values or facts less important is... weird. Are we going to see social problems everywhere and change things in an attempt to allegedly 'make people more happy'? (even if some of them are against it)
Also, I don't really like the somewhat utilitarian vibe behind all of this (I mean the entire pro-female SM part of discussion).

(Once again I would like to note that I am not mocking, joking, or being snide or cynical. English is not my first language and I might not possess the best rhetoric talent)

That kind of thing is really not okay, in any way shape or form. The hobby (and 40k) is for anyone who wishes to partake of it and we are strongly against any attempts to disbar people due to colour, gender, creed, sexuality or any other reason bar them espousing hate.

In the same vein would a woman's only wargaming club be ok?
Generally curious to know what people think.

We had a woman's only swimming from 8-9pm on Wednesdays at my old pool for example.

I notice that it's weird that the same people who are super into diversity seem also to be pro-segregation for a lot of the stuff I see happening in America atm. It's the same idea where they want equality for women in STEM fields but none of the deadly and dangerous careers for men like coal mining or other ones where the skew towards men only is like in the 90% range.

Also, what the hell. I thought this dumpster fire of a thread had finally petered out before more people came back to add some gasoline before it probably gets locked. Feels like borderline twitter between all the buzzwords being thrown around between calling people sexists/Marxists.

I think some of the people here are forgetting this is a game of toy soldiers, if you have to resolve to using ad hominems to prove your point, I think that's very indicative of you showing your insecurity when it comes to escapism if you have this compulsion to have diversity quotas met in things like such a niche hobby. Pushing for stuff like this is slacktivism at its finest.

It's explicit that some people in this thread have made it clear that they only care about representation of females in SM because they're the most popular. Not because it would add any actual aesthetic or writing value or be consistent with the established canon (and yes, one-off mentions from before the lore was coalesced into a distinct entity doesn't count towards that, just like how space marines were originally normal people in 1st edition doesn't count as canon). That in itself shows they don't respect the integrity of the lore because this is the exact same tactic used for pushing race-swaps in established superheroes. People pushing a black Batman or Superman are desperate to have a cheap way of associating their racial group with the same attention/recognition as heroes that have decades of writing/art for who they are. Ironically, they abandon existing heroes like Steel, Black Lightning, Static, etc or making new, more racially diverse heroes over race-swapping because they're lazy and don't want to put the effort and time to help develop characters that can both engaging and racially diverse. And before you say that there are alternate versions of Batman/Superman, I'm not against elseworlds versions, but rather the explicit attempt to replace the mainstream version with a race-swap because it's the most popular hero so that race gets the screentime, which IMO, is a disservice for both the character and the actual race you're attempting to depict. What do people first think of when you hear Superman? Clark Kent. Likewise with Bruce Wayne for Batman. There's a reason why Miles Morales is usually referred to Miles Morales and not by Spider Man, because when you think of Spider Man, most people think Peter Parker. People know who these characters are for a reason, and trying to change that core aspect for the sake of diversity is effectively demonstrating a lack of respect for the core material.

If you are trying to push social activism or agenda out of some bizarre desire to be a moral busybody to police what people should want, I'm sorry to say that you can probably do a lot better than starting with a niche hobby whose whole background was a satirical take on one of the worst human empires in space.

I wouldn't be against it as long as the story of them being written in is done well.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wouldn't be against it as long as the story of them being written in is done well.

Which is precisely why I'm against GW doing it officially because given their track record with Primaris, it'd be a hamfisted and badly done on top of it being unnecessary.

Everything I have said went over your head it seems. Its the classic "ohh you just don't want diversity because you're <insert 'ist' word>" argument" you are spouting

Women are not uninterested in Warhammer because of lack of female space marines, they are not interested because its Warhammer...

And if the women are already interested in Warhammer and are customers, then what's the problem??

The problem is made up.

Now - It could be a problem with the local communities but that's NOTHING to do with lore, or warhammer mdels. And everything to do with building a community. No different to any other niche club. If you attack men left right and centre telling them they are bad for liking Warhammer male only space marines theme as a woman, how on earth do you think they will welcome you? Hobby is not the vehicle to "make change" its a hobby. People are not interested in getting preached to or attacked.. Im till amazed people keep doing this.

Just like some men are interested in lipstick and eye lashes BUT the vast majority of the consumer base is women vast majority of men are not interested. So why aren't you championing to cosmetic companies they need to change their product to include men?

Ugly truth is, certain demographics are just interested in certain things. There is a reason why Warhammer 40k/wargaming/minature customer base is like 95% men with disposable income.. It has ZERO to do with lack of female space marine models. And everything to do with the fact boys like to play with toy soldiers more than girls. As much as it might hurt your feelings, its just reality. We know this as scientific fact and have known this for decades. Men and boys like "things" and women are more interested in people (obviously not always but these are TRENDS born form statistics).

And just because some people go against the grain it should not dictate the majority experience. People can always make their own thing if they are truly unhappy or go and do something completely different... Nobody is forcing people to become part of a community. You don't try to become part of community by attacking community and trying to change communtiy...

So nobody will have an issue with putting whatever heads you want on your plastic dollies. But when you try to change and dictate what dollies other people can or cannot buy. It becomes an issue in my book.

FYI - I'm very proud of my community we have people of all ilk: women, men & transgender folk we don't discriminate against anyone. If you chill and wana play games you will be welcome. And latterly nobody cares or mentions that space marines are all dudes. Ever.

We have had zero issues so far. But I'd think if someone turned out of the blue and wanted to join our community and the first thing they said was that they have issues with the hobby because XYZ and they hate it and its clearly bigoted, and there's too many white men in the group and clearly were all bigoted and hate women, they will play by themselves..

Because out in the wild NOBODY CARES. People who want to paly Warhammer/ wargames will engage in the hobby because there is ZERO actual barriers other then time, money and being a chill human. Perpetuating this nonsense online and exerting pressure for change is lazy activism. Keep that crap out of hobbies.

On your last point, women only spaces is quite simply segregation. However you dress it. BUT i do actually agree. Women have a physical disadvantage in physical altercation.
Maybe the same reason women need women only swimming, is the reason why female space marines doesn't make sense? I.e. Men are big and aggressive which is what you want for a 7ft tall killing post human machine..

I think having X only clubs for anyone should not be a thing.

Food for thought.

The suggestion that Sisters of Battle be made the new flagship faction is hilarious because it runs into the exact same problem, and people start to wonder why the flagship faction doesn't have "misters of battle".

 Argive wrote:

Ugly truth is, certain demographics are just interested in certain things. There is a reason why Warhammer 40k/wargaming/minature customer base is like 95% men with disposable income.. It has ZERO to do with lack of female space marine models. And everything to do with the fact boys like to play with toy soldiers more than girls. As much as it might hurt your feelings, its just reality. We know this as scientific fact and have known this for decades. Men and boys like "things" and women are more interested in people (obviously not always but these are TRENDS born form statistics).

Ugh, no. None of this is 'scientific fact.' These are marketing focuses and how children are socialized with deliberation and intent. Boys are taught toy soldiers (or fast cars, or other socially 'macho' things), while girls toys teach child-rearing, to a gross and excessive degree (while simultaneously teaching boys to avoid such things).

You can see the changes happen in real time in other areas. When I was kid, girls just 'didn't play video games' (once they existed, anyway). Well, it turns out now that they do, and impressively large numbers. Gosh, I wonder if toy soldiers could be the same...

Voss wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Ugly truth is, certain demographics are just interested in certain things. There is a reason why Warhammer 40k/wargaming/minature customer base is like 95% men with disposable income.. It has ZERO to do with lack of female space marine models. And everything to do with the fact boys like to play with toy soldiers more than girls. As much as it might hurt your feelings, its just reality. We know this as scientific fact and have known this for decades. Men and boys like "things" and women are more interested in people (obviously not always but these are TRENDS born form statistics).

Ugh, no. None of this is 'scientific fact.' These are marketing focuses and how children are socialized with deliberation and intent. Boys are taught toy soldiers (or fast cars, or other socially 'macho' things), while girls toys teach child-rearing, to a gross and excessive degree (while simultaneously teaching boys to avoid such things).

You can see the changes happen in real time in other areas. When I was kid, girls just 'didn't play video games' (once they existed, anyway). Well, it turns out now that they do, and impressively large numbers. Gosh, I wonder if toy soldiers could be the same...

But we are not talking about computer games though are we.

Have you actually looked into it? Or are you just going to say no because it doesn't fit your life narrative? Id google Gender-Equality-Personality- Paradox. Its very interesting research. Based on research from Switzerland which is arguably the most egalitarian western society, the finding is that the more egaliterian society becomes the more different personality differences in genders.. As in the more equal you make women and men the more their personalities and tendencies differ.

Believe what you want. Boys be running around pretending to shoot each other with sticks and girls are playing tea party. Nobody teaches that to kids. They just do it.
Do you have children? Have you been to a kids birthday party?
NOBODY is telling the kids what games to play apart from you it seems. Leave them to it and it just occurs naturally and becomes more pronounced with age.

You not wanting that to be real is not the same as there not being a natural order to things. Rage all you want, but we see already the kind of humans this warped ideology is producing and it isn't good.

Sure you could try to immasculate boys by telling them that the thing they want to do is bad, and the toy they want to play with is bad, but you're then engaging in some messed up social eugenics brainwashing.. That's no good to anybody. Apart from maybe someone that sits there in his arm chair and says " see! boy playing with doll good!!! I right" without caring what's actually good for the boys or the girls...

What's bad or unnatural about boyz playing with dolls? I know my brother and I played with dolls just fine. It's also scientific fact that there is very little "natural" about how gender groups behave and that there are more differences within the group of women than between men and women.

 Grimskul wrote:


I notice that it's weird that the same people who are super into diversity seem also to be pro-segregation for a lot of the stuff I see happening in America atm. It's the same idea where they want equality for women in STEM fields but none of the deadly and dangerous careers for men like coal mining or other ones where the skew towards men only is like in the 90% range.

The only persons in this thread that seem to be for pro-segregation are the ones that are arguing against diversity. Most reasonable people who support female space marines are asking for an addition which, I promise, will not actually hurt the current male-only model range of the faction so popular, it makes up a full half of the hobby.

Additionally, most reasonable people don't want those dangerous careers for anyone, regardless of gender. It's funny. You do realize that prior to laws preventing it, children of all things were working in coal mines?

 Grimskul wrote:

Also, what the hell. I thought this dumpster fire of a thread had finally petered out before more people came back to add some gasoline before it probably gets locked. Feels like borderline twitter between all the buzzwords being thrown around between calling people sexists/Marxists.

I think some of the people here are forgetting this is a game of toy soldiers, if you have to resolve to using ad hominems to prove your point, I think that's very indicative of you showing your insecurity when it comes to escapism if you have this compulsion to have diversity quotas met in things like such a niche hobby. Pushing for stuff like this is slacktivism at its finest.

And yet, adding female space marines or indeed expanding the option of any faction to include more women will hurt neither the faction nor the hobby. If you want to boil it down, paying customers would like the option to include women in the roster of space marines. That's what they want in their toy soldier game that they may have already invested thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours into. What should be the red flag to any reasonable person is why some people are highly resistant to the idea.

 Grimskul wrote:

It's explicit that some people in this thread have made it clear that they only care about representation of females in SM because they're the most popular. Not because it would add any actual aesthetic or writing value or be consistent with the established canon (and yes, one-off mentions from before the lore was coalesced into a distinct entity doesn't count towards that, just like how space marines were originally normal people in 1st edition doesn't count as canon). That in itself shows they don't respect the integrity of the lore because this is the exact same tactic used for pushing race-swaps in established superheroes. People pushing a black Batman or Superman are desperate to have a cheap way of associating their racial group with the same attention/recognition as heroes that have decades of writing/art for who they are. Ironically, they abandon existing heroes like Steel, Black Lightning, Static, etc or making new, more racially diverse heroes over race-swapping because they're lazy and don't want to put the effort and time to help develop characters that can both engaging and racially diverse. And before you say that there are alternate versions of Batman/Superman, I'm not against elseworlds versions, but rather the explicit attempt to replace the mainstream version with a race-swap because it's the most popular hero so that race gets the screentime, which IMO, is a disservice for both the character and the actual race you're attempting to depict. What do people first think of when you hear Superman? Clark Kent. Likewise with Bruce Wayne for Batman. There's a reason why Miles Morales is usually referred to Miles Morales and not by Spider Man, because when you think of Spider Man, most people think Peter Parker. People know who these characters are for a reason, and trying to change that core aspect for the sake of diversity is effectively demonstrating a lack of respect for the core material.

You're pretending that space marines are some sacred relic, when really they're just the hobby flagship and cashcow. GW doesn't even respect their aesthetic or established canon if you look at some of the garbage they've pushed out in the name of Space Marines in the past.

As for the rest of your rant, I don't even know where to begin. Fictional characters change all the time. Entire new continuities are created in order to give new faces and fresh perspectives to, say, Thor, Hulk, Captain America, Ms Marvel, and so on. And on the opposite side, we have people who lose their gak over the idea of Idra Elbis playing James Bond.

Your entire argument seems to boil down to space marines have always been this way and should not change, and if women want to play with women toy soldiers they should find another hobby or be happy with the few scraps there are. Unless you're under the misconception that Games Workshop will support literally any other army as much as they support Space Marines?

 Grimskul wrote:

If you are trying to push social activism or agenda out of some bizarre desire to be a moral busybody to police what people should want, I'm sorry to say that you can probably do a lot better than starting with a niche hobby whose whole background was a satirical take on one of the worst human empires in space.

Some people want to play with male space marines. Some people want to play with female space marines. Other people don't care. I don't see how any of these have to be mutually exclusive, except for the people who, strangely enough, get legitimately upset because they want there to be ONLY boy astartes.

 Grimskul wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wouldn't be against it as long as the story of them being written in is done well.

Which is precisely why I'm against GW doing it officially because given their track record with Primaris, it'd be a hamfisted and badly done on top of it being unnecessary.

Which happens to coincidentally coincide with your desire to not see female space marines. On the other hand, if you're worried about GW putting out hamfisted and badly done lore to justify any change in their business practices, you may as well give up on the hobby because I have news for you--that is their standard MO not the exception. Elegance does not describe, say, the Eldar/Aeldari name change, the Ynnari, the numerous Necron and C'tan reworks and so on.

So if you could swallow everything GW has done before, what's the difference with women space marines?

 Argive wrote:


Everything I have said went over your head it seems. Its the classic "ohh you just don't want diversity because you're <insert 'ist' word>" argument" you are spouting

Women are not uninterested in Warhammer because of lack of female space marines, they are not interested because its Warhammer...

More women would be interested in Warhammer if it had better representation. This is fact. More women would be interested in space marines if they had a female line, too.

 Argive wrote:

And if the women are already interested in Warhammer and are customers, then what's the problem??

Because they're paying customers or potential customers and that's what they want? The argument you're making is that the current hobby is perfect and any complaints, such as people who play certain would like half as much love as GW heaps on space marines, should just shut up and be happy with what they have.

Of the three women I know that play 40k, one plays necrons/sob, one plays dark eldar, and one plays daemons, eldar, Tau, dark eldar, sob, and tyranids. Not one of them play Space Marines, because it's a boys' club in an already male dominated hobby, among other reasons.

 Argive wrote:

The problem is made up.

As I stated above, the real problem is that some people are unreasonably against the very idea.

 Argive wrote:

Now - It could be a problem with the local communities but that's NOTHING to do with lore, or warhammer mdels. And everything to do with building a community. No different to any other niche club. If you attack men left right and centre telling them they are bad for liking Warhammer male only space marines theme as a woman, how on earth do you think they will welcome you? Hobby is not the vehicle to "make change" its a hobby. People are not interested in getting preached to or attacked.. Im till amazed people keep doing this.

There are people in this thread that are saying that the hobby is not for people that want something different than what they imagine the hobby should be. You can't have a community when you have people who are already exceedingly catered to by the status quo telling people (who have just as much right, being paying customers) who happen to want a change that will in no way impact the aforementioned people to go feth themselves.

 Argive wrote:

Just like some men are interested in lipstick and eye lashes BUT the vast majority of the consumer base is women vast majority of men are not interested. So why aren't you championing to cosmetic companies they need to change their product to include men?

Oh honey...

 Argive wrote:

Ugly truth is, certain demographics are just interested in certain things. There is a reason why Warhammer 40k/wargaming/minature customer base is like 95% men with disposable income.. It has ZERO to do with lack of female space marine models. And everything to do with the fact boys like to play with toy soldiers more than girls. As much as it might hurt your feelings, its just reality. We know this as scientific fact and have known this for decades. Men and boys like "things" and women are more interested in people (obviously not always but these are TRENDS born form statistics).

I'm sure the video gaming industry used to think the exact same way...until they started targeting the female demographic. Now women game arguably as much or more than men. As I pointed out earlier, women are not really well represented in the game at all, outsider of the SoB, who I'd like to remind you, can include more men in their line-up than the rest of the Imperium factions can put together, and I don't think anyone has lost their gak because of it.

Plenty of women like Warhammer. Plenty of women try Warhammer. And plenty of women are driven out of the hobby because some people make it their goal in life to make the experience into a cesspool. I don't think many men would stick around in a hobby where people are frequently condescending and hostile up to the point of being threatened and spit on.

 Argive wrote:

And just because some people go against the grain it should not dictate the majority experience. People can always make their own thing if they are truly unhappy or go and do something completely different... Nobody is forcing people to become part of a community. You don't try to become part of community by attacking community and trying to change communtiy...

As stated before, the only people who seem unreasonably upset are the ones who who demand that space marines be mono gendered.

 Argive wrote:

So nobody will have an issue with putting whatever heads you want on your plastic dollies. But when you try to change and dictate what dollies other people can or cannot buy. It becomes an issue in my book.

You've literally been arguing this whole time about what people cannot buy. There is a demand for female space marines, and you're saying people shouldn't have that option for reasons.

 Argive wrote:

FYI - I'm very proud of my community we have people of all ilk: women, men & transgender folk we don't discriminate against anyone. If you chill and wana play games you will be welcome. And latterly nobody cares or mentions that space marines are all dudes. Ever.

We have had zero issues so far. But I'd think if someone turned out of the blue and wanted to join our community and the first thing they said was that they have issues with the hobby because XYZ and they hate it and its clearly bigoted, and there's too many white men in the group and clearly were all bigoted and hate women, they will play by themselves..

Because out in the wild NOBODY CARES. People who want to paly Warhammer/ wargames will engage in the hobby because there is ZERO actual barriers other then time, money and being a chill human. Perpetuating this nonsense online and exerting pressure for change is lazy activism. Keep that crap out of hobbies.

"We never have any problems because people know to follow the rules and who's on top."

Maybe next time you're in your community, ask if anyone would have a problem with female space marines, then once everyone's had their say, look into the eyes of all the women, men, and transgendered individuals in your community and tell them to their face that you think the game has enough diversity and if women want to play with women toy soldiers, they should be happy with what they have or go away. I'm sure it will be enlightening.

 Argive wrote:

On your last point, women only spaces is quite simply segregation. However you dress it. BUT i do actually agree. Women have a physical disadvantage in physical altercation.
Maybe the same reason women need women only swimming, is the reason why female space marines doesn't make sense? I.e. Men are big and aggressive which is what you want for a 7ft tall killing post human machine..

I think having X only clubs for anyone should not be a thing.

Food for thought.

Well we've finally gotten there. We don't deserve women plastic soldier space marines because real life women are at a physical disadvantage, ignoring the fact that a few exceptional women are so physically fit that they could literally snap most WH40k players in half.

Maybe GW should stop marketing Space Marines as white guys because men of African and Mediterranean descent make up the overwhelming majority of successful athletes.

Rihgu wrote:
The suggestion that Sisters of Battle be made the new flagship faction is hilarious because it runs into the exact same problem, and people start to wonder why the flagship faction doesn't have "misters of battle".

Sisters of Battle already can include men in their order of battle. However, the suggestion is laughable because GW would never support another faction half as well as they support space marines.

Personally, I wouldn't be upset if a bunch of men were armored as my ladies, officially recognized as female, and took the fight to the Emperor's enemies. I'd welcome it, in fact, if it meant we got better haircut options. We'll probably see that before we see mixed or women only IG regiments or female space marines anyway.

Grimskul wrote:I notice that it's weird that the same people who are super into diversity seem also to be pro-segregation for a lot of the stuff I see happening in America atm.

Women's only swimming pools isn't segregation. It's protection.

If women still want to, they can join in with mixed gender swimming hours - but for many (and for a statistically good reason), they may feel threatened in a mixed gender pool. That's not what segregation is at all.

I think some of the people here are forgetting this is a game of toy soldiers

I know, right! Imagine these people being so threatened by women toy soldiers.

I think that's very indicative of you showing your insecurity when it comes to escapism if you have this compulsion to have diversity quotas met in things like such a niche hobby. Pushing for stuff like this is slacktivism at its finest.

And likewise for the same people who can't accept that other people want to see *representation* (not diversity) in their escapism. Pushing against it is simple mean-spiritedness and lack of empathy at its peak.

It would literally not require anyone to change their current collection, or even future collection of toy soldiers to include women Astartes. You could live your lives very peacefully. But instead, y'all choose to value some words printed thirty years ago instead of hearing out the lived experiences of actual people.

It's explicit that some people in this thread have made it clear that they only care about representation of females in SM because they're the most popular.

No, that's not the *only* reason. But it is the main reason as to "why Space Marines", because just adding random women faction into the game to have them immediately forgotten about *would* be false activism and false representation, and the biggest reason as to "why at all" is "why not".
So far, the only reasons given for "why not" are "because that's the way it is", which is the weakest possible argument you could give.

Defend its validity from the ground up, not because it simply *is*. Justify its existence with more depth than the paper it's printed on. Tell me why some words mean that women should be excluded from the most iconic 40k faction, and why that's apparently fine.

Not because it would add any actual aesthetic or writing value

Women Astartes look cool - there's your aesthetic value.
Adding representation for women is a pretty strong value too. Not that you seem to be able to understand that.

or be consistent with the established canon (and yes, one-off mentions from before the lore was coalesced into a distinct entity doesn't count towards that, just like how space marines were originally normal people in 1st edition doesn't count as canon).

Tell me why some words thirty years ago mean people should feel alienated in the current community.

That in itself shows they don't respect the integrity of the lore because this is the exact same tactic used for pushing race-swaps in established superheroes.

Race-swapping is notably different, and not relevant to simply *adding women*. No-one's coming to take away your man war dollies - only that they can have their own not!man war dollies.

Not sure why that would bother you.

Ironically, they abandon existing heroes like Steel, Black Lightning, Static, etc or making new, more racially diverse heroes over race-swapping because they're lazy and don't want to put the effort and time to help develop characters that can both engaging and racially diverse.

You make an excellent reason as to why people want representation in Space Marines though - because Space Marines are the big one, the Superman compared to Steel. But unlike with superheroes, you don't have to kill off or stop people from having their male Astartes while also having women Astartes.

Unless you can guarantee me that this "original all women" faction would get all the same attention and focus and spotlight as Space Marines (which would require supreme amounts of effort, considering the MASSIVE cultural clout that Space Marines have), you're easier just writing that "recruits comes from boys and girls across the Imperium" in the next Codex.

And before you say that there are alternate versions of Batman/Superman, I'm not against elseworlds versions, but rather the explicit attempt to replace the mainstream version with a race-swap because it's the most popular hero so that race gets the screentime, which IMO, is a disservice for both the character and the actual race you're attempting to depict.

Good thing adding women Astartes doesn't stop you having men.

This is what I mean by your defensiveness - no-one's stopping you from carrying on with *your* stuff. You won't be threatened, you won't have people enforcing diversity quotas on *your* models. You can have the sausage fest you've always dreamed of in your Space Marine collection - but what's so bad about literally just *allowing* women?

People know who these characters are for a reason, and trying to change that core aspect for the sake of diversity is effectively demonstrating a lack of respect for the core material.

Except these comic book characters are single characters, a single identity or person. Space Marines are a faction. They're not the same thing, and you know it.

And, as I keep mentioning, adding women won't get rid of men. You don't have to be afraid.

If you are trying to push social activism or agenda out of some bizarre desire to be a moral busybody to police what people should want, I'm sorry to say that you can probably do a lot better than starting with a niche hobby whose whole background was a satirical take on one of the worst human empires in space.

And there's the sound of the gate being slammed shut.

ArcaneHorror wrote:I wouldn't be against it as long as the story of them being written in is done well.

It literally doesn't need anything more than a line in the Codex saying how young children are recruited, or how "boys and girls across the Imperium are recruited and forged into Space Marines". It's really as simple as that, in the same way that Hunters, Stalkers, Stormravens, and Centurions exist.

Grimskul wrote:Which is precisely why I'm against GW doing it officially because given their track record with Primaris, it'd be a hamfisted and badly done on top of it being unnecessary.

And you're the arbiter on what's necessary and unnecessary now? On what grounds?

Argive wrote:Everything I have said went over your head it seems. Its the classic "ohh you just don't want diversity because you're <insert 'ist' word>" argument" you are spouting

I mean, you've yet to give me a reason why you're so adverse to representation. I've not called anyone a sexist - but I am wondering why else people would be so opposed to rewriting some fake make believe fiction.

Women are not uninterested in Warhammer because of lack of female space marines, they are not interested because its Warhammer...

And your source for that being...?

And if the women are already interested in Warhammer and are customers, then what's the problem??

And what if those women feel increasingly driven away by people such as yourself telling them that their experiences are invalid and that they are apparently "scientifically" meant to dislike 40k (oh, and I'll get to that one).

The problem is made up.

Hey guys! It's okay! The man just told us that women's concerns are nothing to worry about, they made it all up, I'm glad The Man told us all that!

Sorry, but I'm not taking your word that everything's fine and dandy when I've got actual people telling me that it ain't.

Now - It could be a problem with the local communities but that's NOTHING to do with lore, or warhammer mdels. And everything to do with building a community. No different to any other niche club.

You know what a great way to build a community is? To make them feel welcome. How could you help make women feel welcome? By making the flagship faction inclusive of women. You know, as well as not telling them that they're scientifically predisposed against playing with toy soldiers.

If you attack men left right and centre telling them they are bad for liking Warhammer male only space marines

No-one's "attacking" you, or saying you're bad for liking male Marines. We're literally just asking for women Space Marines. That fact you take that as an attack is the problem here.

Im till amazed people keep doing this.

I know, I'm also amazed that people find a headswap so terrifying that they see it as a personal attack.

Just like some men are interested in lipstick and eye lashes BUT the vast majority of the consumer base is women vast majority of men are not interested. So why aren't you championing to cosmetic companies they need to change their product to include men?

I *do*. But I'm on a toy soldiers forum right now, so forgive me if that's not what I'm talking about right now.

Ugly truth is, certain demographics are just interested in certain things.

Uhhhh, no.

There is a reason why Warhammer 40k/wargaming/minature customer base is like 95% men with disposable income..

Because it's marketed towards that audience, and the audience gatekeep the hell out of it?

It has ZERO to do with lack of female space marine models. And everything to do with the fact boys like to play with toy soldiers more than girls.

And have you considered that's because toy soldiers are marketed towards boys and not girls, and not because of any inherent biological reason?

As much as it might hurt your feelings, its just reality. We know this as scientific fact and have known this for decades. Men and boys like "things" and women are more interested in people (obviously not always but these are TRENDS born form statistics).

I would not have the hours in the day to tell you how wrong you are, but literally every word of that sentence is wrong, and I lost brain cells reading it.

Seriously, just go read a book and inform yourself better before I lose any more brain cells.

So nobody will have an issue with putting whatever heads you want on your plastic dollies.

Could've fooled me.

But when you try to change and dictate what dollies other people can or cannot buy. It becomes an issue in my book.

But no-one is! Adding women Astartes wouldn't change your models in the slightest! Why on earth do you think it would?

On your last point, women only spaces is quite simply segregation.

It literally isn't. Segregation is forcible separation of minority groups, where they cannot join in with majority/dominant activities. Women can still go to mixed gender sessions - if they didn't feel threatened by men.

Women have a physical disadvantage in physical altercation.
Maybe the same reason women need women only swimming, is the reason why female space marines doesn't make sense? I.e. Men are big and aggressive which is what you want for a 7ft tall killing post human machine..

THAT'S your takeaway from this?? That women are scared of men because they're big and aggressive, and not because a frankly terrifying amount of women are harassed and sexually assaulted by men?? And worse yet, you play that off as "just part of being a man"??

Get in the bin, seriously.

I think having X only clubs for anyone should not be a thing.

If men could, you know, just stop with harassing women and making them feel intimidated to the point where they need those groups for their own safety, that would be preferable.

Voss wrote:Ugh, no. None of this is 'scientific fact.' These are marketing focuses and how children are socialized with deliberation and intent. Boys are taught toy soldiers (or fast cars, or other socially 'macho' things), while girls toys teach child-rearing, to a gross and excessive degree (while simultaneously teaching boys to avoid such things).

You can see the changes happen in real time in other areas. When I was kid, girls just 'didn't play video games' (once they existed, anyway). Well, it turns out now that they do, and impressively large numbers. Gosh, I wonder if toy soldiers could be the same...

Abso-goddamn-lutely.

Argive wrote:Have you actually looked into it?

Have you?

Or are you just going to say no because it doesn't fit your life narrative? Id google Gender-Equality-Personality- Paradox. Its very interesting research. Based on research from Switzerland which is arguably the most egalitarian western society, the finding is that the more egaliterian society becomes the more different personality differences in genders.. As in the more equal you make women and men the more their personalities and tendencies differ.

Have you researched phenomenology? Literally any academic writing on gender and the construction of gender identity? Because you might want to start there.

Believe what you want. Boys be running around pretending to shoot each other with sticks and girls are playing tea party. Nobody teaches that to kids. They just do it.
Do you have children? Have you been to a kids birthday party?
NOBODY is telling the kids what games to play apart from you it seems. Leave them to it and it just occurs naturally and becomes more pronounced with age.

You know what I do see? Girls running around pretending to shoot eachother, and boys playing tea party. But I'm sure you'd just tell them to stop, because they're not supposed to be doing that either.

Also like your point is entirely inaccurate, and just outright wrong. Again, just go read literally any book on phenomenology.

You not wanting that to be real is not the same as there not being a natural order to things.

No such natural order exists.

Sure you could try to immasculate boys by telling them that the thing they want to do is bad, and the toy they want to play with is bad, but you're then engaging in some messed up social eugenics brainwashing.. That's no good to anybody. Apart from maybe someone that sits there in his arm chair and says " see! boy playing with doll good!!! I right" without caring what's actually good for the boys or the girls...

Why would a boy playing with a doll be bad?

After all, you're here.

 Argive wrote:

Believe what you want. Boys be running around pretending to shoot each other with sticks and girls are playing tea party. Nobody teaches that to kids. They just do it.
Do you have children? Have you been to a kids birthday party?
NOBODY is telling the kids what games to play apart from you it seems. Leave them to it and it just occurs naturally and becomes more pronounced with age.

This is completely missing the issue. Boys run around shooting each other and girls play tea party because they are told from a very early age, by their parents, or by other adults in their community, or by the constant bombardment of gender - oriented marketing that these are the appropriate games for their gender. 'Tea parties' are not encoded in a girl's genes... They have to learn the concept from somewhere. And yes, of course that becomes more pronounced with age. The longer someone is told to behave a certain way, the more ingrained that becomes.

My girls have always been told by us that they can play with whatever toys grab their fancy, and they watch no commercial television. They play doctors, they play with cars, and stuffed toys, and star wars figures, and lego, and dress ups, and they run around the yard building traps for baddies. To the best of my knowledge, they've never had a tea party.


Wargaming is only a 'boys' hobby because society has spent generations convincing girls that there's something wrong with them if they like that sort of thing.

Have none of these peeps claiming boys don't play with "dolls" had GI Joe or Action Man when they were young 'uns?
Of course anyone arguing A is for boys and B is for girls because of "biology" is spouting pseudo-science nonsense or ideas that were disproven yonks ago.

The idea that there are no broad biological gender preferences except those created by society is wrong.
Society is created by those with biology, it's tenets are rooted there.
There's even a study which shows that male and female monkeys prefer different types of toys.

Yes because humans and monkeys are the same.
You are not genetically predetermined to like certain hobbies. Utter nonsense.
"Society is created by those with biology". There is literally not a single part of that sentence that makes any sense whatsoever. Nukes were created with those with biology does that make nukes biology? How about a bin lorry? As soon as people can't defend "no female SM" without using "but the lore", they always go into a complete misunderstanding of scientific knowledge to justify a "no girls allowed" policy.
"Females are weaker than males" - Not in a future where genetic manipulation is commonplace.
"Women don't want to play SM anyway" - Weird that there are women hobbyists who make female SM anyway and then get abused on social media for "breaking the lore".
"Girls don't want to play with toy soldiers" - Only if they've been brought up to believe they aren't supposed to.
"Monkeys do X" - Humans aren't monkeys. Use studies that use human subjects if you want to argue sociology.

the only problem i'm seeing here is that gw just puts way too much attention on marines, seemingly inflating this issue o representation. every other imperium faction includes everyone, eldar are female and male. I think many issues with 40 can be boiled down to space marines being the flagship "good guys"
(if ya want ta get on marines about somethin, talk about how they're all brainwashed to support the ideals of the just as horrible as chaos imperium)

Monkeys are very similar to humans.
They also show culture isn't the big issue. There's no monkey dad beating his monkey son for playing with his monkey doll.
Most boys and girls will gravitate to fairly gendered styles of play. This was not decided by the supreme council of 300 in the mists of time, but from the natural inclinations of people.

If the monkey dad isn't beating his monkey son for using a doll and a human is, then culture absolutely is the issue.
If you go your entire life being told "dolls are for girls, if I see you with a doll I'll beat you" that's culture impacting development. A father isn't genetically predisposed to beating his son because he isn't playing with a football, he's doing it because society has told him that men are supposed to be tough, show no emotion, and not play with dolls because that's a girly thing. Men's mental health is one of the most under-discussed topics in modern society because a man showing emotion/asking for help is immediately discarded as weak.
There is not a single scrap of scientific evidence, biological/sociological/psychological/otherwise, that concludes that humans are genetically predetermined to like a hobby at birth. The environment in which you grow absolutely influences what you are most likely to be interested in but even then it will not determine 100% your interests. For example, my family is very into sports, especially football, and I stopped even caring about football and sport in general by the age of 6 and I started Warhammer at age 11 after years of toy soldiers, Transformers, toy cars, and Lego.

I have asked several times, as has Smudge, as has Gert, what would the literal harm be of making female space marines a reality? So far, 13 pages of us asking, not a single answer. But what we do get is straw man marxist / racist accusations, by people who would be better off hosting the Fox and Friends hour, spouting about how The Left is coming to destroy Christmas!

Or better yet, that WE are the ones who hate diversity, because we are somehow keeping men OUT of the spot light.

Just have the personal courage to answer the question.

The point is there is no monkey culture forcing monkey children to play with set toys.
Humans do have culture, but they also have biology.
The monkey example shows that biology alone can determine this.
Culture will have an effect, but only again, culture rises from biology reality. Why are soldiers or manual labours overwhelming male, through history and across cultures over the world? No one decided it, it's just a matter of biology.

Animus wrote:
Monkeys are very similar to humans.
They also show culture isn't the big issue. There's no monkey dad beating his monkey son for playing with his monkey doll.
Most boys and girls will gravitate to fairly gendered styles of play. This was not decided by the supreme council of 300 in the mists of time, but from the natural inclinations of people.

Glad to know we have an expert on animals and anthropology here! Tell me, what publications can I find your research in?

Oh btw Animus, simians (monkeys, chimps, gorillas) do have societal features just veeeery simplified versions of the ones humans have because we're more evolved. Chimps have even been compared to early human hunter/gatherer societies.

Sure, but they don't have the ability to spread gender memes powerful enough to override their basic instincts.
Again, there's not biggoted monkey dad's making sure there sons aren't sissies.

Read all about it https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

I find that the Sisters of Battle and the Silent Sisters add a bit of mysticism to the game. From a purely male-centric view having a more limited class(es) of female fighters makes their contributions more significant and allows for richer and deeper story telling. Throwing them into the grinder with all the other male classes would dilute this. I would be against it

Can we have misters of battle, too? What would be the harm in that?

If changing SoB to include men would make the game easier for certain groups of people to be able to join and engage with the hobby sure go for it. The difference between SM and SoB is that the SoB were specifically created in-universe to skirt laws the forbade the church from having "men under arms". SM are only male because female minis didn't sell in the olden' dayes' and despite the fact that genetic enhancement is very common in 40k and the Primaris project proved that the Emperor's work could not only be changed but improved, so the lore reason behind not adding female SM is "ew icky girls".
There absolutely should be more models dedicated to the Ecclisiarchy's technically illegal frateris militia, I would love to see that.

 BertBert wrote:
Can we have misters of battle, too? What would be the harm in that?

None-but it wouldn’t really be a benefit either.

Men are already well-represented in 40k. While there’s no harm in adding a faction of male power-armored humans, there’s also not much reason to do so.

 Gert wrote:
If changing SoB to include men would make the game easier for certain groups of people to be able to join and engage with the hobby sure go for it. The difference between SM and SoB is that the SoB were specifically created in-universe to skirt laws the forbade the church from having "men under arms". SM are only male because female minis didn't sell in the olden' dayes' and despite the fact that genetic enhancement is very common in 40k and the Primaris project proved that the Emperor's work could not only be changed but improved, so the lore reason behind not adding female SM is "ew icky girls".
There absolutely should be more models dedicated to the Ecclisiarchy's technically illegal frateris militia, I would love to see that.

Lol.
So why protect one side of the lore and not the other despite it being just as constant.

Because SoB being women is their identity, it's literally in the name.
Space Marines being only men is not their identity. It's part of their background but on the surface, a blank slate of Power Armour is just as likely to be male as female. It's the Brienne of Tarth situation, Catelyn didn't know Brienne was a woman until the helmet came off. SM go further with the blank slate idea by having voice modulators in their helms and it is constantly said that most mortals can't tell one SM from another (which is ironically how SM view most mortals).

 Gert wrote:
I...so the lore reason behind not adding female SM is "ew icky girls".

Wouldn't another plausible reason be that males make for better "templates"? As for an expanded ecclesiarchy range, you can definitely count me in on that.