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Altima wrote: I'm almost afraid of the types of replies we'd get in this thread if I asked, well, what about the boys that want female space marines.
Considering the fox newsy excuses that keep getting repeated and the absolutely insane reaching I'm seeing some people go for so that they can be against a hypothetical situation, I imagine many would end up getting removed by mods.
I kind of wish they would on the basis that at least that *might* be honest.
The Clavin's treehouse NoGiRlz allowed nonsense is at least clearly nonsense.
Catulle wrote: Just to be clear, your contention is that... *breathes deeply*
...since interest in toys and play is biologically determinate, rather than a product of learned social role scaffolding acting on infant neuroplasticity...
...thus options in gendered play should not be offered to humans...
...because those humans are just like every other primate.
*whispers* biotruths...
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a bit daft, isn't it?
Seems like a lot of work getting to the punchline, is all.
No, frankly this is a tangent from when a couple of people were mistaken and said biology played no role in the types of toy and play men and women generally liked. I've never been against options for boys or girls to play with whatever toys they want.
I suppose I could relate it to the fact that I don't believe there are hordes of women waiting to break into wargaming but they're being held back by a lack of female space marines. I don't think women are
interested in wargames compared to men proportionately, and I think those who are genuinely interested wouldn't be so easily put off.
Also warhamer 40k is a far cry from being the only miniature range or game out there.
There's is something for everyone I think in the general hobby of miniatures and wargaming. .
*yawn*
Boring, Arch-sponsored Gatekeeping bollocks.
Honestly, if your answer to "how can we do better inclusion?" Is "Go find another game"...
Then, well.
You will not be missed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 22:23:53
No idea what arch sponsored means.. But sure Ill keep my gate because I have a spine and I don't negotiate with terrorists
Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 22:35:12
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 22:38:42
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me is bullying..
So, changing a singular faction (if the most overrepresented faction) to include women is changing the whole game?
It's still IGOUGO. It's still a wartorn hellscape the likes of which would shock anyone who was transported there. It's still got Bolters and Chainswords and Orks and Eldar and Necrons. It's not even really a fundamental change to Marines-they're indoctrinated killing machines, warrior monks, and the elite of the Imperium. None of those concepts require you to be a man.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me is bullying..
So, changing a singular faction (if the most overrepresented faction) to include women is changing the whole game?
It's still IGOUGO. It's still a wartorn hellscape the likes of which would shock anyone who was transported there. It's still got Bolters and Chainswords and Orks and Eldar and Necrons. It's not even really a fundamental change to Marines-they're indoctrinated killing machines, warrior monks, and the elite of the Imperium. None of those concepts require you to be a man.
Yes 40k has many problems. Game system chief among them.. Representation should be far down the list of priorities if the base game is garbage and the busines model sucks and makes it inaccessible to EVERYONE due to book prices and model prices...
Yes. Its changing the essense of 35+ year old lore. So yes... Is it perfect? No. It just is. But thousands if not millions of people have enjoyed it over the last 35 years. And I don't want that to be thrown in the garbage because someone's feelings are not recognised NOW. This ideology never stops and it never ends and it the end it stifles creativity and quality if you give in and its utopian garage not based in reality.
If you don't think this will end with "misters of battle" and she-orks I have a bridge to sell you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 22:59:14
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Why would female Space Marines ruin 40k? What part of "Hypno-Indoctrinated weapon of murder" or "Warrior-Monk" or "Elite of the Imperium" requires you to be a man?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/27 23:07:00
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Cool. Are you actually professing ignorance of Arch's white supremacist opus here? To be clear, because I see a lot of his talking points in your post and if you want to distance yourself from that(with clarityy and distance if you can maybe be linked to it in the past) now would be the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
So you disagree with diversity because you don't like anyone who is a minority being validated because they're the minority? That.... doesn't... seem.... okay. At all
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Empire uber alles, I suppose..." - a Fascist spanker
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 23:22:48
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Why would female Space Marines ruin 40k? What part of "Hypno-Indoctrinated weapon of murder" or "Warrior-Monk" or "Elite of the Imperium" requires you to be a man?
Do we have to go through this rigamarole again?
In reality men are physically bigger because genetics, testosterone hormones etc etc which has been an internal logic of the setting since SM were created.
Its not reflective but its routed in human biology and real world physics (yes yes the warp is the warp)
And im not saying it would ruin 40k. I'm saying It would ruin 40k for a lot of space marine fan and WH40k fans.. Who would be unhappy with changing long established internal logic, and lore to satisfy some vocal minority interest group without caring about how much time effort, and money they have invested building the hobby up.
And if you ask me why people need their dudes only SM? Its the same reason people want female only SOB.. Its just what they want. I don't see how one is any different from the other, unless you assign it arbitrary value of "men bad"
Which is an abhorrent sexist view.
It comes back around to why are female only SOB ok but male only SM not okay and are somehow problematic?
Follow this logic to its conclusion and the result is she-orks and "misters of battle" because at its core this idea never ends and there is always someone oppressed and unrepresented so you force changes to fit that agenda and not for the sake of setting or story telling.
A lot of people are not interested in balance or diversity nor interested in building a better community. I think there are plenty bad actors who use this ideology to try and destroy something they perceive as bad. I.E. Wh40k = SM, SM is full of men so that's bad simply because its full of men = 40k Bd.
I think this is becoming a very circular argument if people are not willing to accept the there is a sepcific agenda on the the demand of female space marines. And that agenda has very little about making current players happy.
Trying to hammer home the fact that people are only interested in things that look like them is very insulting to tyranid players
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The issue is, as has been pointed out, Sisters of Battle can field more men in their army than the rest of the Imperium can field women. (Excepting if you go for Victoria Miniatures for your IG or something, but then you can't play in an actual GW store.) There's not even anything vaguely close to equal representation. And the most natural place to address that is a faction that combines large presence in the fluff with minimal model adjustments needed-I don't think Marines need a gakload more models or anything, but an upgrade sprue with unhelmeted female heads and an announcement of a lore change would help provide equal representation.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Catulle wrote: Cool. Are you actually professing ignorance of Arch's white supremacist opus here? To be clear, because I see a lot of his talking points in your post and if you want to distance yourself from that(with clarityy and distance if you can maybe be linked to it in the past) now would be the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
So you disagree with diversity because you don't like anyone who is a minority being validated because they're the minority? That.... doesn't... seem.... okay. At all
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Empire uber alles, I suppose..." - a Fascist spanker
No I think anyone that doesn't value themselves until they have a plastic miniature that looks like them, has bigger problems then lack of miniature that looks like them.
I don't think you are getting what I'm putting down.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Good grief, wouldn't if just be awful if we ruined a thing for the majority of humanity by trying get to preserve it for a horrible, selfish, narcissistic and attenuated stump of humanity that was dedicated gatekeeper wargamers... that would *suck* it would be just roll get over to a narcissistic, selfish rump of humani... the hobby. It might... never... grow AGAIN.
Nah, no gurlz allowed.
*dies*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 00:06:49
The issue is, as has been pointed out, Sisters of Battle can field more men in their army than the rest of the Imperium can field women. (Excepting if you go for Victoria Miniatures for your IG or something, but then you can't play in an actual GW store.) There's not even anything vaguely close to equal representation. And the most natural place to address that is a faction that combines large presence in the fluff with minimal model adjustments needed-I don't think Marines need a gakload more models or anything, but an upgrade sprue with unhelmeted female heads and an announcement of a lore change would help provide equal representation.
Equal representation of what? The hobby customers? The player base? Would new plastic female models for guard or Eldar not be better for wh40k?
Its fairly simple; Its has to be SM if you have an agenda which is not positively disposed towards 40k.
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Good grief, wouldn't if just be awful if we ruined a thing for the majority of humanity by trying get to preserve it for a horrible, selfish, narcissistic and attenuated stump of humanity that was dedicated gatekeeper wargamers... that would *suck* it would be just roll get over to a narcissistic, selfish rump of humani... the hobby. It might... never... grow AGAIN.
Nah, no gurlz allowed.
*dies*
That's sad.. That was completely incoherent. I wish you has something to add to the discussion, I would like to hear it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/28 00:07:09
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Catulle wrote: Cool. Are you actually professing ignorance of Arch's white supremacist opus here? To be clear, because I see a lot of his talking points in your post and if you want to distance yourself from that(with clarityy and distance if you can maybe be linked to it in the past) now would be the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
So you disagree with diversity because you don't like anyone who is a minority being validated because they're the minority? That.... doesn't... seem.... okay. At all
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Empire uber alles, I suppose..." - a Fascist spanker
No I think anyone that doesn't value themselves until they have a plastic miniature that looks like them, has bigger problems then lack of miniature that looks like them.
I don't think you are getting what I'm putting down.
Heh.
I know precisely what you're putting down, and It's terrible exclusive sexist-tinged rubbish. You've yet to explain how you "disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few." when that thing is neither ruined nor vaguely narcissistic (see above) or to defend your position from the utterly exclusionary points unto which you have embedded yourself.
Nobody has answered the question in any meaningful way as to; why you'd want female space marines instead of a new female centric flagship faction or SOB taking the spotlight on its own merit.. Other then "coz its easier"
Because I don't think anybody wants a "female centric flagship faction". They want a flagship faction with equal representation.
This despite the fact that if you did do this, you'd alienate the biggest current participating demographic IF we apply the standard of representation. After all if boys can no longer see themselves in space marines they'd not want to play right ? right? riiight?
But they don't matter because reasons.. Isn't it ironic...
But men will still see themselves in space marines because some are still male. In fact most likely will remain male. They are still going to remain adequately represented in the flagship faction.
So it like a zero sum game of ruining a thing a lot of people enjoy for the sake of SOME people that MIGHT enjoy int he furute despite data showing this is UNLIKELY.
After all all GW needs to do is switch its marketing and we will have the magical equality utopia right ? Right? Riight?
Why would you consider this ruining this thing? Especially if you still have your bro force represented however you wish; recruitment is generally up to the chapter anyways. You can have a boys only club for whatever reasons you wish. And we get the owner of the IP putting a layer of protection up for those that wish to model female Astartes. So they can stop getting death threats whenever they do so in online forums. It won’t be an overnight sensation; enough females have seen the hostility that the audacity to dare to model the faction that hogs the spotlight with female representation takes from the community and have learned that tabletop wargaming is a man’s world that such a thing would take time. We need to set the precedent that this is not true before the healing can begin.
All female sisters of battle are fine, all male space marines are bad, and "misters of battle" would also not be ok.. all at the same time? Its so stupid.. The amount of double think is just staggering..
Those that made the claim that male sisters of battle are bad are a minority. Most have conceded that point because a) that is hardly what we are talking about b) they don’t believe it changes things much. Especially considering the amount of people playing marines vs them, and the fact that sisters of battle armies very much can include male models anyways. And c) such a blatant and toxic usage of a “what aboutism” argument that adds little to the discussion, and is intended for the sole purpose of neutering a discussion intended to make the hobby more inclusive to all genders.
Nobody gives a crap if you want to GS boobs to your marines or give them female heads...
Except the death threats and vitriol such conversions have historically drawn have empirically and emphatically proven this statement false. Several commenters have Discussed and furnished proof that you are wrong and this sort of comment is exactly what allows that vitriol and toxicity to thrive. Also saying that the problems a group of people have (that you probably don’t interface with and have demonstrated a remarkable disconnect with) don’t exist proves that you are framing this within your personal experience and your personal frame of reference and are consciously dictating that this frame that disenfranchises the experiences of another gender group.
That's idiotic. People are there to play games and not talk about politics or sociology.
Id rather be discussing why Blood Angels dont make sense as they were all wiped out, and what on earth are the tyranids up to and also why did nobody threw up a stink about wolves having psykers after nikea which he wolves themselves wanted..
And yet here you are, making your voice heard, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I am of the opinion that these conversations need to be had and folks like you need to engage with it. As do folk like the Scotsman and those that have probably drawn negative thoughts or emotions from you. It has utility in of itself.
40k has a lot of issues. Poor balance, terrible business model of ever expanding pile of rotating books behind a paywall and abysmal model support.
Representation really isn't one of them unless you set out specifically to make it an issue...
There seems to be a trend in anecdotal evidence on this thread and across the internet that AOS has more female players than 40K. Still not equal in gender demographics of player base, but that is far from the goal. Anyways, Their Sigmarines, or Sigmar equivalent of Marines, have females hopped up on AOS equivalent of gene seed. They also have significantly more factions and lore that holds up better to the Bechdal test. By my brief approach to the lore. 40k performs fairly abysmally in that test. I will gracefully accept (hopefully constructive and not toxic in nature) criticism from the other folks on here. These trends and differences though strongly support the argument we are making, that female representation in marines is the easiest, quickest, and most effective way to open the hobby up to all genders. Or, a restatement of that claim that is more directly linked to this discussion, it would make the hobby more attractive to more genders, and remove social and psychological barriers that deflect such potential barriers.
At no point have myself or anyone else opposed more diversity in 40k. Learn to read. If you want more female models in 40k and GW wants to make, I don't care I don't think anybody normal cares. Heck I might buy some myself if they are any good.
But you are talking about tearing down something people enjoy out of spite and selfish laziness..
This is not based in spite. The argument is also that this would not tear down what you love; why is the linchpin upon which your love of this setting have to be that space marines are a boy’s only club?
For the record I couldn't give less of a toss about marines. Dont own any dont care. Id ratehr there be much less marines being made and more plastic eldar and guard.
By god the only people that could agree with you more are those that actually do collect space marines... the statements have even been made by those that would like to see female space marines that they would prefer any applicable releases to help this hypothetical fluff meet the tabletop wait until everyone else is up to date as well...
The issue is this exact thing happens in every conceivable sphere of entertainment where communities capitulate to shut people up... But it never ends and it becomes the sole objective of the medium.. resulting in much lower quality and creativity being censored.
You mean like how people love to shut female space marine converters up and censor them whenever they dare to post their creativity online... the issue we are trying to address.
How have people not caught on this con ideology is astonishing.
If you want change, create parallel structures. Don't try to take over and destroy things. Building is a lot harder than destroying. So get to work.
I can not address this without tying in real world politics and examples, but I really have to disagree with you here. The argument right now that keeps getting skirted is how exactly what we are discussing “destroying things?”
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
In reality men are physically bigger because genetics, testosterone hormones etc etc which has been an internal logic of the setting since SM were created.
When Space Marines were created, they were just convicts in power armour. Ignoring that for a moment, though, there's a couple of problems with this statement: for one, we're not talking about reality, we're talking about fantasy in space. And for two, physical size is not the sole criteria for grading the best soldier.
And im not saying it would ruin 40k. I'm saying It would ruin 40k for a lot of space marine fan and WH40k fans.. Who would be unhappy with changing long established internal logic, and lore to satisfy some vocal minority interest group without caring about how much time effort, and money they have invested building the hobby up.
Nope, you've lost me. How does the introduction of female models to the range have any effect whatsoever on the miniatures you already own?
And if you ask me why people need their dudes only SM? Its the same reason people want female only SOB.. Its just what they want.
So... if I walk into a store and the regular Coke is sitting on the shelf beside the sugarless Coke, I have no choice but to buy and drink both of them...?
Or can I just buy and drink the one that I actually like? Which, obviously, would not be the case if only one of those choices existed.
Follow this logic to its conclusion and the result is she-orks and "misters of battle" ...
Works for me.
A lot of people are not interested in balance or diversity nor interested in building a better community. I think there are plenty bad actors who use this ideology to try and destroy something they perceive as bad. I.E. Wh40k = SM, SM is full of men so that's bad simply because its full of men = 40k Bd.
And a lot of people apply faulty logic and assumptions that fit their preconceived view in order to dismiss something that they don't personally feel needs addressing.
Trying to hammer home the fact that people are only interested in things that look like them is very insulting to tyranid players
And trying to insist that this is in some way relevant to the discussion shows that you are still completely missing the point of representation.
Representation isn't about having every single thing be identical to yourself, nor has it ever been claimed that every person needs this. This is not, and has never been, what people are asking for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 00:11:18
Catulle wrote: Cool. Are you actually professing ignorance of Arch's white supremacist opus here? To be clear, because I see a lot of his talking points in your post and if you want to distance yourself from that(with clarityy and distance if you can maybe be linked to it in the past) now would be the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
Argive wrote: Maybe you will not be missed if you go find another game if 40k Male only space marines offends you so much?
I'm just offering solutions a sane person would see as reasonable. Why expose yourself to something that you find offensive or not inclusive and then complain about it being offensive and non inclusive??
You find something else or you create something else. You don't try bully people into your way of thinking...
UNLES its just a self serving way of trying to exert power and influence so you can feel better about being validated at having bullied people to get your way?
Food for thought.
"I want the hobby I enjoy to be more inclusive and representative of people," is bullying now?
No, saying you are a bad person if you don't jump when I say jump and change the whole game for me because I say so is bullying..
The issue is not with diversity. The issue is with how people are trying to achieve it. Read my post previously I think I explained that well. .
If you don't disagree with diversity, then why one earth are jumping get through these complex hoops to protect the precious from that vile *feminist* influence? You *like* diversity, right?
I disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few.
So you disagree with diversity because you don't like anyone who is a minority being validated because they're the minority? That.... doesn't... seem.... okay. At all
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Empire uber alles, I suppose..." - a Fascist spanker
No I think anyone that doesn't value themselves until they have a plastic miniature that looks like them, has bigger problems then lack of miniature that looks like them.
I don't think you are getting what I'm putting down.
Heh.
I know precisely what you're putting down, and It's terrible exclusive sexist-tinged rubbish. You've yet to explain how you "disagree with ruining a thing for the many to satisfy narcisstic selfish validation of the few." when that thing is neither ruined nor vaguely narcissistic (see above) or to defend your position from the utterly exclusionary points unto which you have embedded yourself.
Do your own dammed work, because we won't.
I already explained. If you'd actually read what I wrote instead of getting triggered and writing angry drivel perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I get your position. I do. But I think its a very bad position for the hobby and the wider ideology that's causing it is at its very core abhorrent.
Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..
That's a terrible opinion and strategy in my opinion..
To recap:
The assumption is that "Warhammer" is excluding women because lack of female space marines - This is demonstrably untrue as we have plenty of women part of the Warhammer/wargaming community.
My assertation is that the reason for lack of females, is not lack of female SM but because women are not interested in plastic toy soldiers and making pew noises because of interest trends and tendencies born from a combination of mostly biology coupled with culture and society. WH Is a very nieche hobby that MOST MEN are not interested in
Same way lipstick is not marketed at men and boys, WH is not marketed at girls and women. Because there are "general" trends people follow. And that's been discussed to DEATH with plenty research being shown.
Ergo. FEMALE SM = MALE SOB - This obliterates 35+ year lore which people have built community around and cherish and love. Again this has been explained in more detail
So I would say if that's the case, the motivation becomes political agenda of tearing down something and other such nonsense seeking to destroy things they perceive as "bad" aka. men bad, and not really caring about the things they claim to want to help.
If someone's self worth is really derived from wither or not some plastic toy they can ignore looks like them or not, I don't think they need to be taken seriously because its a narcisstic and self absorbed outlook on life and we simply shouldn't care. This may be a shock but people are allowed to not care about people..
Its unfortunate that you cannot see this and instead choose to attack the hobby and people who have built the hobby if they don't agree with your ridiculous demands to change said hobby to fix something that isn't there to fix.
Is that clear enough for you?
And if people disagree they are welcome to disagree.
No hard feelings.
In reality men are physically bigger because genetics, testosterone hormones etc etc which has been an internal logic of the setting since SM were created.
When Space Marines were created, they were just convicts in power armour. Ignoring that for a moment, though, there's a couple of problems with this statement: for one, we're not talking about reality, we're talking about fantasy in space. And for two, physical size is not the sole criteria for grading the best soldier.
And im not saying it would ruin 40k. I'm saying It would ruin 40k for a lot of space marine fan and WH40k fans.. Who would be unhappy with changing long established internal logic, and lore to satisfy some vocal minority interest group without caring about how much time effort, and money they have invested building the hobby up.
Nope, you've lost me. How does the introduction of female models to the range have any effect whatsoever on the miniatures you already own?
1. Some players might get annoyed their favourite chapter master goes in for surgery and in the next novel becomes a female for no reason. Or they kill of his fav dude to introduce diversity. We've seen this happen in comics and that whole genre. Also some people will find it jarring and immersion breaking? I dont know im not invested in SM youd have to ask the SM players
And if you ask me why people need their dudes only SM? Its the same reason people want female only SOB.. Its just what they want.
So... if I walk into a store and the regular Coke is sitting on the shelf beside the sugarless Coke, I have no choice but to buy and drink both of them...?
Or can I just buy and drink the one that I actually like? Which, obviously, would not be the case if only one of those choices existed.
2. Wouldn't you just buy some water as its healthier?
I really don't get this.
You can make your own female marines if they are not sold and it means so much to you or you can play SOB if you want females.
There are plenty eldar sculpts that need updating in plastic which would work fine as females without wasting time on SM and giving them more sprues. Or even betetr an entirely new faction based on chicks. Like Amazons in space Id buy that crap.
Follow this logic to its conclusion and the result is she-orks and "misters of battle" ...
Works for me.
3. It works for me too. But might not work for ork players. Agains you'd have to ask them.. Or do their voices and wants don't matter for the greater good?
A lot of people are not interested in balance or diversity nor interested in building a better community. I think there are plenty bad actors who use this ideology to try and destroy something they perceive as bad. I.E. Wh40k = SM, SM is full of men so that's bad simply because its full of men = 40k Bd.
And a lot of people apply faulty logic and assumptions that fit their preconceived view in order to dismiss something that they don't personally feel needs addressing.
4. No i stand by my statement. Read the whole thread and tell me some people have zero interest in 40k Sm or warhamemr and only in making sure they kil of male only SM because its somehow bad for women.
Trying to hammer home the fact that people are only interested in things that look like them is very insulting to tyranid players
And trying to insist that this is in some way relevant to the discussion shows that you are still completely missing the point of representation.
Representation isn't about having every single thing be identical to yourself, nor has it ever been claimed that every person needs this. This is not, and has never been, what people are asking for.
5.What is it about? I've asked this many times but its always the same nebulous etherial item.
Doesn't that seem odd to you that people want change but not exactly sure what they are advocating for yet are happy to destory things other people have created or grown attached to?
Sorry I tried to do the neat quote thing but I suck at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 00:43:04
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
If you don't understand the issue, then it's ultimately more productive to learn about the issue than to argue that it isn't, in fact, an issue.
3. It works for me too. But might not work for ork players. Agains you'd have to ask them.. Or do their voices and wants don't matter for the greater good?
I am an Ork player. They're my primary army, and have been since about 1999. Introducing female orks would have zero detrimental effect on the faction's character (they're sentient fungus. No reason they can't have male and female versions for sporing purposes, like many plants on this planet do...), and would add a whole host of character and modeling opportunities.
The whole female ork thing is still missing the point, though, because Orks are not the flagship faction for the game and its setting.
5.What is it about? I've asked this many times but its always the same nebulous etherial item.
Doesn't that seem odd to you that people want change but not exactly sure what they are advocating for yet are happy to destory things other people have created or grown attached to?
Representation has been explained multiple times. You've chosen to ignore the explanations because you consider it an unimportant, made-up issue.
I would also point out that this:
Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..
...completely overlooks the fact that this issue hasn't arisen from nowhere. This isn't just a bunch of men assuming there is a problem on behalf of someone else... There are plenty of women out there complaining about the sexism inherent in the wargaming hobby.
And yet again: adding female models to the Space Marine range doesn't take away anything. If you want your marines to be all boys, you would still be able to do that.
Honestly for me, as long as they respect the past fluff I am cool with female marines. As said before make it so Cawl removed the limitation on primarius. Then Keep SOB as the defacto female faction, expand on the talons of the Emperor to have both men (custodian) and women (sisters of silence) and then make Grey Knights the defacto male faction as they don't do primarius anyways. That way the poster faction has both.
I already explained. If you'd actually read what I wrote instead of getting triggered and writing angry drivel perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I get your position. I do. But I think its a very bad position for the hobby and the wider ideology that's causing it is at its very core abhorrent.
Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..
That's a terrible opinion and strategy in my opinion..
You respect women so much that you find the idea that they want better representation to be so distasteful that you'd rather they leave the hobby because if they ever got their way, it'd ruin the hobby for you, and you'd leave?
No one is talking about taking stuff away. They're talking about adding on to an existing range. Are you that insecure?
The assumption is that "Warhammer" is excluding women because lack of female space marines - This is demonstrably untrue as we have plenty of women part of the Warhammer/wargaming community.
Warhammer 40k is not inviting to women. Prior to essentially this edition, there was no marketing aimed at women and there's still very little. Sure, there are female models, but if you took every non-SoB female option from every army and put them in the same book, you *might* have a range as expansive as some of the mid tier factions--maybe 10-15% as big as the astartes.
Could GW do better? Yes. The first step is including more female representation in the actual range. Not only Eldar and Guard who are specifically mentioned as having a lot of women serving but either have laughably little or no actual options, but in the main flagship faction that, once again, makes up at least half of the hobby.
My assertation is that the reason for lack of females, is not lack of female SM but because women are not interested in plastic toy soldiers and making pew noises because of interest trends and tendencies born from a combination of mostly biology coupled with culture and society. WH Is a very nieche hobby that MOST MEN are not interested in
Women play 40k, so your assumption is incorrect. Many women play 40k. Not as many as men, but that doesn't make their wants any less valid. Of course, the big problem I'm gathering here is that if there were more women represented in the game, especially in Space Marines, then that might mean more girls might pick up the hobby.
Same way lipstick is not marketed at men and boys, WH is not marketed at girls and women. Because there are "general" trends people follow. And that's been discussed to DEATH with plenty research being shown.
And yet, I bet you go just about every day seeing a man in makeup. Let's be honest, it's not socially accepted for men/boys to be in makeup, but I'm sure some would like to wear it (and some are required to wear it for their profession) and makeup companies would love to market to a wider audience, but in a lot of western areas, a male buying makeup might draw unwanted attention. Probably for the same reason why not women feel safer in a women-only swim class.
Ergo. FEMALE SM = MALE SOB - This obliterates 35+ year lore which people have built community around and cherish and love. Again this has been explained in more detail
In what way? No one seems to be upset about the idea of male sisters of battle. Probably because the SoB army actually includes males right now. As for the lore, Games Workshop already upended the lore with Primaris, which also obliterated 35+ years of lore. Did you quit the hobby over that? Obviously not.
So I would say if that's the case, the motivation becomes political agenda of tearing down something and other such nonsense seeking to destroy things they perceive as "bad" aka. men bad, and not really caring about the things they claim to want to help.
No one is saying men bad. They're saying that women are underrepresented in the hobby, which they objectively are. Some people (of both genders) want female space marines. Some people don't care. However, there is a subset of people like yourself that are vehemently against including the option.
I mean, you can hide it behind as many poorly veiled arguments as you want, but we all know, yourself included, why you really don't.
If someone's self worth is really derived from wither or not some plastic toy they can ignore looks like them or not, I don't think they need to be taken seriously because its a narcisstic and self absorbed outlook on life and we simply shouldn't care. This may be a shock but people are allowed to not care about people..
Why is your self worth so wrapped up in a boys only astartes?
Its unfortunate that you cannot see this and instead choose to attack the hobby and people who have built the hobby if they don't agree with your ridiculous demands to change said hobby to fix something that isn't there to fix.
The only people who are attacking the hobby are the ones who say including female space marines would 'ruin' the hobby for them and are using every argument in the book from how it's disrespectful to the lore, to what about SoB, to make up marketing, to genetics, to how men are just so big and strong that they're the only ones who can truly appreciate the hobby, to how including female space marines is actually disrespectful to people who want female space marines.
1. Some players might get annoyed their favourite chapter master goes in for surgery and in the next novel becomes a female for no reason. Or they kill of his fav dude to introduce diversity. We've seen this happen in comics and that whole genre. Also some people will find it jarring and immersion breaking? I dont know im not invested in SM youd have to ask the SM players
No one is talking about literally changing the gender of existing space marines. And guess what, characters die in the lore all the time. New characters come in, old characters move out. Are you going to throw a fit because Gaunt and his ghosts are getting new models even though they've been dead for something like two hundred plus years in the lore?
2. Wouldn't you just buy some water as its healthier?
I really don't get this.
You can make your own female marines if they are not sold and it means so much to you or you can play SOB if you want females.
There are plenty eldar sculpts that need updating in plastic which would work fine as females without wasting time on SM and giving them more sprues. Or even betetr an entirely new faction based on chicks. Like Amazons in space Id buy that crap.
And you can choose to NOT play female space marines if they should ever become a thing and it will have zero impact on you. Except you've been using the lore as an argument, so what if people want female space marines acknowledged in lore?
3. It works for me too. But might not work for ork players. Agains you'd have to ask them.. Or do their voices and wants don't matter for the greater good?
So you bring up female orks as a bad thing, say it doesn't matter to you, you're just acting as the champion of those poor, unheard voices. But wouldn't that destroy the fluff of the orks? Why do you not have a problem with female orks but argue so vehemently against female space marines?
4. No i stand by my statement. Read the whole thread and tell me some people have zero interest in 40k Sm or warhamemr and only in making sure they kil of male only SM because its somehow bad for women.
Every point you make is in bad faith. You try to shield yourself by playing the devil's advocate, that you're not personally interested in, you're just standing up for the community, for the random joe. Even in this very statement you're wrong, because not a single person in this thread has said remove male space marines and replace them with females. People have stated, over and over, directly to you, that it's an addition, and you can choose not to purchase if it becomes an option.
You are welcome to your opinions. I'm welcome to mine.
We can cherry pick each others points and ignore what is being said and misrepresent arguments ad infinitum... There isn't much to be gained from any further discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 03:36:10
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I already explained. If you'd actually read what I wrote instead of getting triggered and writing angry drivel perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I get your position. I do. But I think its a very bad position for the hobby and the wider ideology that's causing it is at its very core abhorrent.
Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..
That's a terrible opinion and strategy in my opinion..
You respect women so much that you find the idea that they want better representation to be so distasteful that you'd rather they leave the hobby because if they ever got their way, it'd ruin the hobby for you, and you'd leave?
No one is talking about taking stuff away. They're talking about adding on to an existing range. Are you that insecure?
Changing an arguably key part of a faction identity is taking something away, even if the change could also be described as an addition. On the surface that can sound illogical, but the absence of a thing can be just as important to identity as having a thing.
How important is it that SM are all male (and retain that characteristic)? I don't know. It clearly has an effect though.
I find that there is usually a misunderstanding about opinion.
You're free to have any opinion you want, and to voice them. And you (as a person) are entitled to be respected in any case.
That doesn't mean you're welcome to have your opinions: there are stupid, retrograde, dangerous or simply silly opinion. The fact that you have them doesn't mean they're worth anything: an opinion is worth only as much as it can be proven to be factually true, practically useful or logically necessary.
In this case it's none of the above: it's simply an opinion based on wrong assumption and a faulty reasoning.
I don't welcome you to have wrong idea. I don't welcome anyone to be wrong if I can avoid it.
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
I already explained. If you'd actually read what I wrote instead of getting triggered and writing angry drivel perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I get your position. I do. But I think its a very bad position for the hobby and the wider ideology that's causing it is at its very core abhorrent.
Its categorising and locking women into a group without giving them agency, and determining they are so insecure they cannot be interested in plastic toy soldiers unless they look like them and therefore we have to take away stuff that looks like boys to make them feel better..
That's a terrible opinion and strategy in my opinion..
You respect women so much that you find the idea that they want better representation to be so distasteful that you'd rather they leave the hobby because if they ever got their way, it'd ruin the hobby for you, and you'd leave?
No one is talking about taking stuff away. They're talking about adding on to an existing range. Are you that insecure?
Changing an arguably key part of a faction identity is taking something away, even if the change could also be described as an addition. On the surface that can sound illogical, but the absence of a thing can be just as important to identity as having a thing.
How important is it that SM are all male (and retain that characteristic)? I don't know. It clearly has an effect though.
You are right; it clearly has an effect. It has the effect of empowering misogynists across the internet with the false authority to respond to female space marines with vitriol, hatred and death threats. And you are right that adding something could be taking it away, and vice versa. With marines being the most marketed faction, most supported faction, faction with the most representation in the lore and black library, and generally easier and more forgiving faction to new players, should provide representation to the broadest audience imaginable.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Argive wrote: You are welcome to your opinions.
I'm welcome to mine.
We can cherry pick each others points and ignore what is being said and misrepresent arguments ad infinitum... There isn't much to be gained from any further discussion.
Correct you are welcome to your opinions, until those opinions become rude/disrespectful. You've made no effort to bring anything to the discussion besides what you want to believe, shutting down anyone that disagrees and ignoring their arguments because you don't believe the issues discussed exist. People have explained as best they can and if you still don't understand the issues being discussed it is on YOU to educate yourself about them. It's not that hard, just put up a picture of a female SM saying you're a female hobbyist and you'll get what the issues are.
Honestly, with the number of posts that all read the same and use certain language ("get triggered", lots of "whataboutism"), I'm convinced that you are posting just to troll.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 10:09:15
Eldar- 4436 pts
