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macluvin wrote:On the front of sexism being absent in the imperium, the presence of women in leadership roles does not necessarily exclude the presence of sexism in the imperium.

Yes, while it doesn't mean that the Imperium couldn't still be sexist to a large degree, and all we're seeing are the exceptions, there's also no evidence to suggest that the Imperim is institutionally sexist in the first place.

This is one of those things that GW haven't really codified, so we can't know for sure which way it swings - but all I can say is that considering how the Imperial Guard are treated, I'd say it's more likely the Imperium is uncaring when it comes to sexism. Or as Gert put it:

Gert wrote:GW has made it pretty clear in the variety of publications it has that the Imperium cares about an individual's humanity, that is that they aren't Xenos/abhuman/Chaos tainted and not their sex/gender/sexuality. There can be sexist individuals within the setting because you can't legislate for people's opinions but overall there is nothing preventing a woman from becoming a Lord General/Factory Overseer/Planetary Governor/Militarum Sergeant over a man. There is a distinct difference between an individual being sexist and state-mandated or supported sexism. The Imperium undoubtedly has the former but does not conform to the latter.

macluvin wrote: I doubt the fluff writers and most in this forum are interested in pursuing that explanation, but nothing in the lore has actually excluded the presence of sexism in the imperium.

But again, nothing has indicated that it exists either. I'm not sure if we should be making headcanons that the Imperium is even more of an oppressive hellhole than it needs to be already.

Hecaton wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Lets not forget this guy also assumes that wanting female marines means you find all-male marines repulsive.

Nope. Literally people in this thread are saying that it's "Not a good look" for the hobby to be predominantly male.

Citation? What I recall people saying was it's not a good look for the *flagship faction* to be all-male. There is a distinction.

Andykp wrote:
You might be happy for people to kit bash and head canon female marines but by refusing to acknowledge the need for change to the out dated background and trying to prop up flimsy arguments around how it’s designed to only work and men and it’s a quirk of the setting, you are enabling those who send threats and hate to people who do do that. As long as this sexist and pointless bit of old background is not corrected the. The hate mongers and bigots in the community will feel empowered to spew that hatred. It has happened on this thread. It happens every time it’s discussed. But only ever around this issue.

There is no need to de-segregate a fictional organization like the Astartes.

You've not been reading the thread, evidently.

Andykp wrote:
Monks are not all male,

Yes they are, otherwise they'd be nuns.

Not exactly familiar with Buddhist monks then, are you?

Monks don't need to be all male, because monk is a generic term that applies to the simple concept of religious asceticism - in the original Greek it is derived from, it is used gender-neutrally, and as mentioned above, is also used gender-neutrally in referring to non-Christian faiths.

Andykp wrote:
Marines are not all warrior monks, and if they were monks are not all male.

Wrong, see above.

Wrong, see above!

Andykp wrote:
The science is entirely made up. It’s absolute nonsense. It has no grounding it real world science at all. A science argument does not stack up at all. In fact it’s laughable.

You're not cogent enough to make this argument. You're trying to claim it's wrongthink to even conceive of a fantastical medical procedure that would only work properly on male humans. That's ridiculous.

Why do you need to invent a fantastical medical procedure that only works on men? Why is that such an important thing to make sure your Made-Up Magic Super Soldier Serum Juice does?

Why is it necessary to exclude women in this way?

Andykp wrote:
They are not fraternity either. If they are it’s only because of this outdated stupid and pointless line of text.

They call each other "battle brothers." That's pretty close to the definition of a "fraternity" (aka brotherhood).

And Guardsmen are most frequently called Guardsmen. Are they a warrior brotherhood too?

Andykp wrote:
There is NO credible argument to say that the official addition of female marines would do the setting any harm. None. If it would damage the setting to you and you place that higher than the damage been done by hatred and death threats then you need look at yourself and your motives. Why does it bother you?

What hatred? What death threats?

The death threats and abuse received by people who post their converted women Astartes models, which you'd have read about if you checked the thread.

Who cares?

Aw gee, I think the people receiving death threats because their plastic model had a different head might care.

Seriously, what kind of unsympathetic response is that? Not even a "that's a shame that happens", but an outright "who cares if they're getting death threats over plastic models".

Andykp wrote:
That’s my argument for why we should change.

It's full of logical and factual inaccuracies.

Not one was uttered, and your only rebuttals were you simply saying "nuh uh", and "I don't care".

 Gert wrote:

Ah so it's OK to dress up your Orks like real world fascists because Orks are funny. That'll hold up.

Depends on the company you keep.

Nope, I don't think so. Irrespective of whatever company you keep, dressing up your Orks like real world fascists is pretty sketchy.

 Gert wrote:
As for your point about the Imperium, please cite which publication you found evidence of the Imperium killing babies who had disabilities or were intersex.

The rulebook that came with the Rogue Trader KT set was the most recent explanation of it that I've read; they use the term "mutations" but that covers all forms of physical disability and deformity (and doesn't literally mean mutation in the scientific sense).

Would you care to quote that in full?

 Gert wrote:

It was exactly that but Hecaton chose to deliberately misread it and put their own inflection on what I said.

The point is this - if there was a child born intersex or with a sixth finger or something, the Imperial authorities would kill the baby, and then kill the mother if she tried to interfere. Probably slowly and painfully, to make a point.

Again, citations, please - because we don't see that happen anywhere. In fact, I don't believe there is a mention of intersex folks in 40k, or their explicit absence either.
Care to find that proof?

Removed - BrookM

Gogsnik wrote:Not eaxctly the best looking minis nor do I suppose a kid in the 80's asking their parents for some half naked lady models would have been taken well.

Oh, absolutely agreed that the models looked awful, but the point is that they *did* exist, and when GW became able to make half-decent female-presenting sculpts, they could've just done Marines again.

Alan then goes on to say the customers told them they didn't want female models, but he already said he didn't include them in the production cycle because retailers told them, so which was it, retailers or customers? Possibly both? Maybe, but that doesn't seem likely to me, how many customers would realistically write in to ask Games Workshop to stop making any female miniatures what-so-ever or kick up such a fuss in a shop that the manager would pass it on?

It reads to me that retailers heard from customers that women models wouldn't sell, or simply just perhaps from reading the (very male-dominated) room at the time.

He then says that the background that Rick Priestly wrote saying there were male only space marines was there to justify a 'commercial logistics issue'. Looking at it one way, that they wrote the background to appease customers who didn't want any female miniatures, why didn't they include that caveat for all the miniatures lines in 40k, why single out space marines?

Honestly, agreed! Why did Guardsmen get to dodge the bullet, but Space Marines didn't? But, in all fairness, there were hardly any women sculpts for Guardsmen either.

For Eldar and Dark Eldar and similar, they fed into the "Space Elves" trope, and elves are/were commonly portrayed as having many female-presenting models in all forms of fantasy. Women elves was just a common trope that got fed into the trope-laden mess of 40k.

Then he finishes off by saying that the RTB01 box set had no female marines in it because they never even thought to make any and allegedly couldn't have done anyway which is utterly nonsense, any of the sprues could have had a female head on so job done.

I obviously don't know the actual situation, and honestly, as you say later, it's still a lazy excuse which has flaws in some way or another, but by "couldn't have done anyway", that may be a reference to their awful sculpting abilities of female heads. Unlikely, but hey, it's all excuses that don't really excuse anything in my book.

Irrespective of how well the story holds up, we can clearly see two models that are pretty clearly Space Marines, or Space Marine-adjacent. They existed, and then they didn't. And, aside for some pretty arbitrary lore reasons or issues with reception at the time of production, there isn't too much of a reason not to include them now.

It's not "woke", it's not "generification of the setting", it's not "hating men". It's just asking for some cool-ass models in a cool-ass faction that just happens to be at the forefront of 40k, because there's no good reason why women shouldn't be represented in that cool-ass faction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:
On the whole 'the imperium will execute you if you're intersex or have six fingers', it depends. Most references to mutants in 40k tend to be along the lines of:

In the doctrine of the theocratic Imperium, any deviation from the holy Human form is considered a sin to be punished with suppression, and even death.

There are variations. Some are minor. Some are major, to the point of disfigurement. Having six fingers on necromunda might be tolerated, having six fingers on the shrine world of Saint cuthbert might get you and everyone in your vicinity slain, just because.

I don't think intersex was known to a lot of people when 40k was written, I suspect the writers understanding of mutants was more xmen than xxy. I've read in places that in the realpolitik of 40k, exceptions can be made and there are tolerances and degrees that are allowed, or tolerated, depending on where you are. You might get away with six fingers, that weird mole that looks like a face or abnormal genetics, then again, you might not. Personally I lean towards the notion that unless you're rich, or can hide it, you're going on the pyre. Folks in the imperium don't care that much. Life is pretty damn cheap and horrible.

Generally agreed - which would support the idea that it's not institutionally obsessed with genetic purity - there's a great deal of leeway and varying interpretations within the Imperium, and really, it's all about *where* in the Imperium you get caught.

Lower levels of society? You're mostly beyond scrutiny, you could avoid detection for being born intersex or with six fingers. Upper classes, you're most likely rich and/or influential. You can finesse your way out of that. It's going to be the managerial classes, or as close to "middle" class as you can get within the neo-feudal Imperial system, which would be the most scrutinised by this, but even that depends on local politics.

@Hecaton


@Tiennos


Removed - BrookM

 jeff white wrote:
When 40k goes full woke, I quit. The rainbow warriors predate the raging cultish neo fascist wokeness of today.

Just wanted to point out that the Rainbow Warriors aren't a gay pride wokeness thing. They're a reference to the Rainbow Warrior, a boat belonging to Greenpeace. It made the news in the 80s around the time Rogue Trader was created, when French secret services sunk it to stop it from protesting French nuclear testing in the Pacific.

If anything, the Dark Angels have far stronger ties to the idea of being the 'lgbtq themed' army...

Agreed with Smudge, Gert and Andy. Aside from the "thinly veiled" part

I await Hecaton adding the request for an explicit quote to the weird take about gender inclusion being a pretext for sexual motives onto the pile of reactionary talking points never to be addressed or evidenced.

I'm still waiting for the passage that says the Imperium kills babies with disabilities or who are intersex.
I mean I know exactly what is going to happen but still.

Hecaton wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

It's also impossible to make that judgement based on thirty authors who may or may not be published through the same publishers.

Sure, so why are you suggesting it?

I didn't. You did.

I merely pointed out that authors are often subject to the requirements of their publishers. We have no way of judging the differences in publishing requirements without knowing who the authors in question were, what the books were, and who published them. If they were all from the same publisher, and approved by the same editor, then there would be a crumb of evidence on your inherent gender bias trail. Without that information there is no way of determining whether the writers were creating the characters they wanted to create, the characters they thought would be the most commercially viable, or the characters they were told to create.


But, honestly, this isn't worth the effort of continuing. Clearly you place more importance on the vague and self-admittedly-inconclusive results of a statistically insignificant study than I do. You do you.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think that if you puncture him he'll bleed some Contrast instead of blood because "it's better!!!".

That said, about mutations: the Imperium employs Abhuman and has entire worlds with Abhuman in it...

The problem is that the setting is contradictory by design, so it's funny to see people see certainties where there's none.

Well, the same section I was referring to said that something like one in 10,000 mutants were kept alive, that might account for what you're talking about. But given there are armies of abhumans... that means that anyone without a militarily useful suite of mutations is getting purged. Anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:
I don't think intersex was known to a lot of people when 40k was written, I suspect the writers understanding of mutants was more xmen than xxy.

Mmmm, it's worth noting that Klinefelter's syndrome (xxy sex chromosomes) isn't really "intersex," and the Imperium in 40k is so ass-backwards they probably don't even know what it is, they just think "Oh that guy has a low sex drive."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
I'm still waiting for the passage that says the Imperium kills babies with disabilities or who are intersex.
I mean I know exactly what is going to happen but still.

I told you where it was found. Do you want a screenshot?

Jesus Hecaton, you are cutting off your head to spite your nose. You are continuing to make worse and worse arguments and attack people just to prevent the IDEA that females can be space marines.

Hecaton wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think that if you puncture him he'll bleed some Contrast instead of blood because "it's better!!!".

That said, about mutations: the Imperium employs Abhuman and has entire worlds with Abhuman in it...

The problem is that the setting is contradictory by design, so it's funny to see people see certainties where there's none.

Well, the same section I was referring to said that something like one in 10,000 mutants were kept alive, that might account for what you're talking about. But given there are armies of abhumans... that means that anyone without a militarily useful suite of mutations is getting purged. Anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:
I don't think intersex was known to a lot of people when 40k was written, I suspect the writers understanding of mutants was more xmen than xxy.

Mmmm, it's worth noting that Klinefelter's syndrome (xxy sex chromosomes) isn't really "intersex," and the Imperium in 40k is so ass-backwards they probably don't even know what it is, they just think "Oh that guy has a low sex drive."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
I'm still waiting for the passage that says the Imperium kills babies with disabilities or who are intersex.
I mean I know exactly what is going to happen but still.

I told you where it was found. Do you want a screenshot?

Klinefelter's is not the only form of intersex. One of my close friends was born with male sexual characteristics and ovaries. The fact that you think Klinefelter's is the only form of being intersex is telling to me.

 Gert wrote:

I mean it further normalises fascism within a hobby that already has a problem with normalising fascism. "Oh but Orks are the comedy faction" doesn't hold up because the Orks aren't normalising fascism, the player who made them is.

The thing that people are dancing around is that portraying the senselessly cruel and oppressive Imperium as unironically heroic normalizes fascism in a way that an ork army painted like real-world fascists cannot, because basically everything that orks do is ironic.

 Gert wrote:

Yeah, I want the direct quote from a GW publication that says the Imperium mandates the killing of babies with disabilities or who are intersex. It seems to me you're just applying the term "mutant" to people with disabilities or who are intersex despite knowing that when the Imperium talks about mutation, it means tentacle arms or goat legs.

The way "mutation" is used in 40k is not the scientific sense, but rather in the "abnormal physical phenotype" sense. There's mutants displayed in 40k material who have extra or missing limbs, eyes, whatever.

The relevant quotes (from p. 8 of the Rogue Trader KT book) are as follows:

Rogue Trader wrote:Amongst Humanity in the 41st millenium, mutations are commonplace. While many can be attributed to environmental conditions such as rad-pollution, the most insidious are those caused by the powers of Chaos...

...But for every sanctioned mutant that serves the Imperium ... there are a thousand lesser mutants that are slain outright, and another thousand that dwell hidden in the shadows, rightfully afraid to reveal themselves...

So what we can see here is that the Imperium doesn't distinguish between mutations caused by pollution and those caused by Chaos, and it kills 99.9% of mutants it can. The ones who aren't are mentioned - abhuman soldiers, navigators, psykers, etc.

Mutations caused by environmental toxins can cause things like extra or missing limbs or digits due to interfering with developmental genes, like the infamous case of thalidomide in the 20th century. This is consistent with the way mutations are depicted in 40k, with extra limbs being a common effect of mutation, and nowhere is it said that the Imperium distinguishes between mutation caused by environmental causes or Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RaptorusRex wrote:


Klinefelter's is not the only form of intersex. One of my close friends was born with male sexual characteristics and ovaries. The fact that you think Klinefelter's is the only form of being intersex is telling to me.

Do you really think I said that Klinefelter's was the only form of intersex characteristics, or are you joking around?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:


I merely pointed out that authors are often subject to the requirements of their publishers. We have no way of judging the differences in publishing requirements without knowing who the authors in question were, what the books were, and who published them. If they were all from the same publisher, and approved by the same editor, then there would be a crumb of evidence on your inherent gender bias trail. Without that information there is no way of determining whether the writers were creating the characters they wanted to create, the characters they thought would be the most commercially viable, or the characters they were told to create.


But, honestly, this isn't worth the effort of continuing. Clearly you place more importance on the vague and self-admittedly-inconclusive results of a statistically insignificant study than I do. You do you.

Yes, because all the results of the study were statistically insignificant. /s

And I haven't seen any studies that show that women are more likely to engage with fiction that depicts powerful, heroic women. Twlight was a smash success but the main female character was anything but.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Smudge has covered all of the points I wanted to make so I will just say that it is painfully clear that you do not any case or argument and are not prepared to even pretend to have a discussion with any honesty at all. From what I can see you basically trolling now, not willing to provide any real constructive argument at all, just saying “nah” and “don’t care”. I do think you should have a good look at yourself though if you have an issue with those receiving death threats and online abuse and no empathy for them but have no issue at all with those giving it out. You are maybe on the wrong side of decency on this one? I would say so.

Smudge was misrepresenting my points, presumably with the goal of attracting mod attention to them. I'm not interesting in engaging with that poster anymore, since they aren't discussing in good faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:
If anything, the Dark Angels have far stronger ties to the idea of being the 'lgbtq themed' army...

It would be unironically great for them to actually engage with that idea in some way, though the hamfisted naming of "Lion El'Johnson" does hamper it a bit. I do prefer consistently referring to him as "The Lion."

Hecaton wrote:
I told you where it was found. Do you want a screenshot?

Yes.

Yes we do, because we are currently left to assume that you are projecting your regressive fantasies about real people into an abstract social hellscape while at the same time insisting that aspects which are not written, yet which coincidentally fit a *particular* mold ("Nazi Orks, cool and funny, girl marines literal neo-fascism") has a place, not to mention the weird plastic soldier sex fetishism you insist is a thing for your contras...

Please, evidence any of that bollocks, or just feth off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, we do not believe you.

We believe you are arguing in bad faith.

We believe you *must* be either disingenuous or stupid, and we would rather assume the former than the latter.

Catulle wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I told you where it was found. Do you want a screenshot?

Yes.

Yes we do, because we are currently left to assume that you are projecting your regressive fantasies about real people into an abstract social hellscape while at the same time insisting that aspects which are not written, yet which coincidentally fit a *particular* mold ("Nazi Orks, cool and funny, girl marines literal neo-fascism") has a place, not to mention the weird plastic soldier sex fetishism you insist is a thing for your contras...

Please, evidence any of that bollocks, or just feth off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, we do not believe you.

We believe you are arguing in bad faith.

We believe you *must* be either disingenuous or stupid, and we would rather assume the former than the latter.

Luckily for me and everyone else, your beliefs are wrong.

None of that says the Imperium kills kids with disabilities or who are intersex. You've projected your personal opinion on something and declared it fact.
GW is very clear about what they consider mutation and the very passages you've just sent show that.
Even then the ACTUAL mutants with tentacle arms and goat legs aren't always hunted down at every opportunity because that takes time and resources the Imperium either doesn't have or doesn't want to spend. It would collectively have to do monthly if not weekly purges on every single planet, starship, and starbase in the Imperium because the mass of humanity is so great that anyone can become mutated at any time.
When dogma comes face to face with reality, even in the Imperium, dogma backs down quite a bit.

Smudge was not misrepresenting your words at all. He summed them and your argument up very nicely. It might be tricky to see from your view but he is not the discussing in bad faith. You have done than time and time again.

And those pics of text really do not say what you claim they do. That is not evidence of what you claim. And still you have not answered my question.

 Gert wrote:
None of that says the Imperium kills kids with disabilities or who are intersex. You've projected your personal opinion on something and declared it fact.
GW is very clear about what they consider mutation and the very passages you've just sent show that.

No they're not.

Lets be clear- Hecaton says plenty things I personally find very objectionable, but he's not exactly wrong here.

With respect Gert, I appreciate what you're saying comes from a good place but you are nitpicking technicalities. It's absolutely the wrong way to win an argument. You're setting hecaton up as a villain and trying to fight everything he says just because he says it. Sone of that is misplaced. There's better things to argue against than standing on a hill saying 'the imperium is not as horrible as you are implying' or 'how dare you say they do bad things to these people!'

Most of this kind of stuff is heavily implied and inferred and left to your imagination rather than described in exacting detail in black and white. Gw paints in broad strokes. Back when I started in third, it was absolutely understood this kind of backwardness and mind numbing horror was a normal Tuesday for the imperium.
Youre talking, frankly about a medieval or dark age world view turned up to 11. Crippled kids were absolutely left out in the cold to freeze in our history. Not unheard of at all.

On mutation, Typically you see things like 'the Imperium has little tolerance for any who deviate from the divine perfection of the baseline Human form in mind or body'.

Mutation is more than just spikes and tentacles. Anything deviating from the baseline Human phenotypic state is technically a mutant. There are degrees of intolerance for sure, but ultimately this is how it is.

Most mutants are purged or pushed to the fringes of society. I have no objections to the notion that the imperium is so horrible that invalids, those with disabilities or those with 'abnormal' genetics will be sent to the pyre. Or if theyre really lucky, turned into a servitor and allowed the opportunity to atone for the sin of their own existence. It's the Imperium. Life is pretty cheap. And utterly horrible.

Regarding mutation and intersex or disabled children:

the writers are quite clearly referring to physical, unnatural mutation - 12 foot high monster people, people with mandibles instead of jaws, or insectoid limbs. They aren't scanning babies to see if they have extra or lacking internal organs. If a person cannot walk, then they aren't about to be purged - though they might end up on the wayside of society begging for scraps, but that's a different thing entirely. A lack of social support is an issue from the imperium being stretched thin and overpopulated, not from their inherent decisions. Someone born disabled in a hive city is getting a shorter shrift of life than one born into a more luxurious planet where their family can afford to look after them.

Regarding the idea that female space marines is a fetish thing, that may be saying more about the person who assumes this than the people they assume it about. The two reasons I have for wanting to see female marines is "There's no reason not to" and "they would look really cool". I don't even play space marines, so have no interest in buying them either way. But to suggest that people only want to see 28mm tall plastic women for sexual reasons? I wonder if perhaps you are either too familiar with the internet, thinking that everything has sexual explanations, or not familiar enough, thinking that 28mm female models in thick, non-form-fitting power armour even comes close to the depravity of humanity.

Regarding the idea that an ork (or any) force themed about historically "evil" faction is one of personal tastes. If I were to model my orks around Wolfenstein, I would not then expect people to claim that I am supporting nazism, any more than if I were playing a WW2 historical game and playing as the Germans. Tabletop wargames are not inherently political - otherwise we can claim that anyone playing ultramarines is supporting the tories because they are blue and popular amongst people with a high disposable income. 40k isn't a political platform. It is important to be able to divorce the serious side of things from the non-serious side of things. It's also worth recalling that we have our own viewpoints on these things, and that these things are not always right. Making a car that is based off the name and shape of the Enola Gay is perhaps considered a cool thing in the west. Now drive that through Japan and see how they see it.

The suitability or properness of representing historic factions, regardless of their actions, is always a matter of perspective.

See the difference between someone with tentacles getting burned and someone with Downs Syndrome getting purged, is that people with tentacles AREN'T REAL.
By Hecaton's logic, the Imperium would also purge people modern society considers LGBTQ+ because they "deviate from the divine perfection of the baseline Human form in mind or body" as you put it.
You can portray the Imperium as a bad place without making people who already suffer stigmatism and difficulty in our society feel even worse about themselves.
THAT is the point I am objecting to here.

The Imperium genocides Xenos? Ok, those Xenos aren't real living people in the society in which 40k exists. No harm done.
The Imperium has a violent and dogmatic religion as the core of its state? Ok, this could be seen as insulting to a religious individual but at the same time, it is clearly intended to be a super extreme outlier and not "normal".
The Imperium purges those with mutations? Ok, GW has made it pretty clear that they consider "mutants" to be like those found in the Morlocks group from Marvel, who are burdened with physical mutations that they can't hide i.e. horns, too many heads, too many limbs, and not people with disabilities such as Downs or ADHD or those who are trans/intersex.

I am sorry but are we comparing sexes or gender to mutations? If yes, why?
Is this the argument? That Female Space Marine will be considered mutants?


Just because,you know, the same should apply to technology. To be precise, innovation in technology (AI, but even standard maintenance) is dreaded and manage attentively as much (if not more) of the physical corruption.
So, how does fare your Imperium with new vehicles, new weapons, new equipment that come endlessly any six months?


(There are a lot of other inconsistencies, like how Psyker are variably tolerated rather than purged).


As usual for any lore-related explanation, it doesn't stand against any level of scrutiny. I prefer to consider it a mediocre world building, not a restrictive guideline.

 Gert wrote:
See the difference between someone with tentacles getting burned and someone with Downs Syndrome getting purged, is that people with tentacles AREN'T REAL.
By Hecaton's logic, the Imperium would also purge people modern society considers LGBTQ+ because they "deviate from the divine perfection of the baseline Human form in mind or body" as you put it.
You can portray the Imperium as a bad place without making people who already suffer stigmatism and difficulty in our society feel even worse about themselves.
THAT is the point I am objecting to here.

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

Aash wrote:

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

Are any of the modern-day religions supplanted by one another in 40k? No, it's a made-up religion that isn't real that makes no claims that it is tied to any one of the modern-day religions. And just so we're clear on this, there are many subsets of modern-day religions that specifically claim to be the only true religion and all others are false.
The Emperor was a bad dude and His militant atheism is a part of that. I am not a religious person but I'm not launching a crusade to exterminate all the religious people in the world.

And for the thousandth time in this cursed nightmare of a thread, YOU CAN SHOW THAT THE IMPERIUM IS BAD WITHOUT MAKING REAL PEOPLE FEEL BAD.

Just so we're 100% clear on the hypocrisy of the Imperium BTW, Space Marines are mutants, Ogryns are mutants, Ratlings are mutants, every shade of Psyker under the stars is a mutant and every single one is not only tolerated but seen as a vital part of the Imperium. Removed - BrookM

 Gert wrote:

Aash wrote:

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

Are any of the modern-day religions supplanted by one another in 40k? No, it's a made-up religion that isn't real that makes no claims that it is tied to any one of the modern-day religions. And just so we're clear on this, there are many subsets of modern-day religions that specifically claim to be the only true religion and all others are false.
The Emperor was a bad dude and His militant atheism is a part of that. I am not a religious person but I'm not launching a crusade to exterminate all the religious people in the world.

And for the thousandth time in this cursed nightmare of a thread, YOU CAN SHOW THAT THE IMPERIUM IS BAD WITHOUT MAKING REAL PEOPLE FEEL BAD.

I think the caps lock is a bit unnecessary, I was only trying to engage in the conversation. Sorry you feel bad.

My point is I don’t think that just because something is fictional it should flinch away from painful subjects. I find that Dystopian fiction works best when it makes a point, when it says something and when it hold a mirror up to society. 40K started off by holding a funhouse mirror up to Thatcher’s Britain and political situation on the late 1980s, for it to stay relevant it needs to reflect modern times. To do that sometimes involves uncomfortable ideas. That’s the point. By saying the dystopia of 40K would to horrific things to innocents who are persecuted in reality, it is commenting on those real issues. It is saying “look at this terrible vision of humanity! It’s not quite so far removed from reality as you might like to think. These awful things are wrong, we’d best change our ways lest this is where we end up.”

So again, I’m sorry if you feel bad, but that’s sort of the point.

There is a distinct difference between making fun of Margaret Thatcher and telling an intersex person they would be purged because they are a mutant.
As for the caps lock, I'm sick of people making stupid arguments based on no version of reality but their own. Maybe next time actually read some of the conversation before jumping in at the very end.

Aash wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See the difference between someone with tentacles getting burned and someone with Downs Syndrome getting purged, is that people with tentacles AREN'T REAL.
By Hecaton's logic, the Imperium would also purge people modern society considers LGBTQ+ because they "deviate from the divine perfection of the baseline Human form in mind or body" as you put it.
You can portray the Imperium as a bad place without making people who already suffer stigmatism and difficulty in our society feel even worse about themselves.
THAT is the point I am objecting to here.

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

They do.

That's exactly why.

The head writers at games workshop are not interested in placing politics into 40k, and portraying the imperium wiping out real-world religions, physical variations of humanity, or currently-recognized human races is placing politics into 40k precisely because a particular small group of folks is extremely interested in seeing the canon include those types of things.

That's the reason why the examples listed of what the humans in 40k view as 'mutations' is limited to stuff like mandibles, tentacles, and 12 foot hulks.

You may feel free to headcanon the imperium rounding up anyone with an intersex population and shooting them in the head if you want to, but it is precisely as officially recognized canon as the existence of female space marines.

And you wouldnt' want that, would you? Imagining a fictional imperium systematically purging people perceived as genetically aberrant is one thing, but open the door to such woke nonsense as female marines would be neo-fascism.

 Gert wrote:

Aash wrote:

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

Are any of the modern-day religions supplanted by one another in 40k? No, it's a made-up religion that isn't real that makes no claims that it is tied to any one of the modern-day religions. And just so we're clear on this, there are many subsets of modern-day religions that specifically claim to be the only true religion and all others are false.
The Emperor was a bad dude and His militant atheism is a part of that. I am not a religious person but I'm not launching a crusade to exterminate all the religious people in the world.

And for the thousandth time in this cursed nightmare of a thread, YOU CAN SHOW THAT THE IMPERIUM IS BAD WITHOUT MAKING REAL PEOPLE FEEL BAD.

Just so we're 100% clear on the hypocrisy of the Imperium BTW, Space Marines are mutants, Ogryns are mutants, Ratlings are mutants, every shade of Psyker under the stars is a mutant and every single one is not only tolerated but seen as a vital part of the Imperium. Removed - BrookM

Walk that back. Seriously not cool.

Ogryns and ratlings are abhumans and fall under a different category (genetically stable). Space Marines are made of the emperors own genetics, they are His sons (and His daughters if we are going there), questioning them is questioning the Emperor himself. Navigators in some ways don't count; they were deliberately engineered during the dark age of technology and they are hated and feared as much as anythimg else. In any case their existance hase deliberate dispensation from the Emperor himself. Psykers are absolutely not tolerated - as a point of fact, they're incredibly dangerous, most are rightly killed on sight or fed to the Emperor. It's only the rarest few that are kept alive and even then, they're 'used', with any number iof safeguards, failsafes and laspistold to their heads,and theyre distrusted as a matter of course.

If we're banning things because their inclusion people might feel bad, there's a hell of a lot of things to be scrubbed out of 40k.

Yeah, you aren't getting what I'm saying here chief.
Hecaton made an unfounded statement that has since been shown to be untrue and only true within their headcanon. Other people have decided that instead of saying "maybe you shouldn't make up nonsense", they jumped right on in to support a completely untrue statement.
I'm objecting to this untrue statement on the grounds of:
A - It's not true.
B - It can cause actual real harm to real people who already have to deal with loads of persecution anyway.

If you want to headcanon that the Imperium kills babies with disabilities, that is up to you just don't frame it as "official canon" then get mad because everyone, including the source you provided, says you're wrong.

 Gert wrote:
There is a distinct difference between making fun of Margaret Thatcher and telling an intersex person they would be purged because they are a mutant.
As for the caps lock, I'm sick of people making stupid arguments based on no version of reality but their own. Maybe next time actually read some of the conversation before jumping in at the very end.

The aggressive tone is unnecessary. As for reading and jumping in, I did read what came before. I only commented now because I felt I had something to add to the conversation.

And on the subject of mutants and mutations, they aren’t dirty words. There’s nothing wrong with having a mutation, whether that mutation causes webbed toes, blue eyes, Down’s syndrome or any other generic abnormality.

I don’t know you and your background just as much as you don’t know me or mine, so let’s not make assumptions?

I personally don’t have an issue with the horror-state of the 41st millennium persecuting innocents any more than I do with Brave New World and its dystopia or The Left Hand of Darkness commenting on gender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See the difference between someone with tentacles getting burned and someone with Downs Syndrome getting purged, is that people with tentacles AREN'T REAL.
By Hecaton's logic, the Imperium would also purge people modern society considers LGBTQ+ because they "deviate from the divine perfection of the baseline Human form in mind or body" as you put it.
You can portray the Imperium as a bad place without making people who already suffer stigmatism and difficulty in our society feel even worse about themselves.
THAT is the point I am objecting to here.

Should we also remove any reference to religion and gods, or the Emperors attempt to stamp out religion and the destruction of churches in the pre-heresy lore such as “the last church” too?

The whole point of the setting is how insanely awful the imperium is, and how any number of normal things in reality would get you summarily executed or worse in the dystopia of 40K.

They do.

That's exactly why.

The head writers at games workshop are not interested in placing politics into 40k, and portraying the imperium wiping out real-world religions, physical variations of humanity, or currently-recognized human races is placing politics into 40k precisely because a particular small group of folks is extremely interested in seeing the canon include those types of things.

That's the reason why the examples listed of what the humans in 40k view as 'mutations' is limited to stuff like mandibles, tentacles, and 12 foot hulks.

You may feel free to headcanon the imperium rounding up anyone with an intersex population and shooting them in the head if you want to, but it is precisely as officially recognized canon as the existence of female space marines.

And you wouldnt' want that, would you? Imagining a fictional imperium systematically purging people perceived as genetically aberrant is one thing, but open the door to such woke nonsense as female marines would be neo-fascism.

I assume you are addressing me since you quoted my post. FWIW, I am in favour of introducing female space marines, and said as much earlier in this thread, so I think you may have me mixed up with someone else.

Aash wrote:

The aggressive tone is unnecessary. As for reading and jumping in, I did read what came before. I only commented now because I felt I had something to add to the conversation.

And on the subject of mutants and mutations, they aren’t dirty words. There’s nothing wrong with having a mutation, whether that mutation causes webbed toes, blue eyes, Down’s syndrome or any other generic abnormality.

I don’t know you and your background just as much as you don’t know me or mine, so let’s not make assumptions?

I personally don’t have an issue with the horror-state of the 41st millennium persecuting innocents any more than I do with Brave New World and its dystopia or The Left Hand of Darkness commenting on gender.

Ok, I apologise for causing distress.
As for your point about mutants, firstly within the context of the Imperium being a mutant is a bad thing, and secondly, have you read or watched any X-Men media? That should give you a really good understanding of how the term is used by people. It doesn't matter if the mutants and their select allies see themselves as part of the wider humanity, enough people hate and fear them to make them "the baddies".
Do you understand how you can make something bleak and dark without also making it hostile to people who already have to deal with prejudice and discrimination IRL? 40k can be dark because humanity is enslaved to a vile regime that doesn't care who lives or dies, why add transphobia into the mix?
Justifying hatred with "but its grimdark" is a sad excuse and it lessens the hobby for everyone involved.

I am particularly baffled by the double standard for which in the 40k universe the genetic science is both like our own (when defining mutants, or what is a xeno) and at the same time it does work by unknowable criteria (about the possibility of a female space marine: then it b came the fantasy version of itself).

Pick one.