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shortymcnostrill wrote:
Well to be fair, what the op is saying is that most other factions have their "back in my day..." type lore that made them very powerful in the past (even though they are not any longer so). Nids don't have such a past that we know of.

This means that the peak power of the nids is what we're currently seeing. Yes there is more stuff coming, but that could be anything: maybe more powerful creatures, maybe simply more of the same, maybe even slow defenceless creatures that eat the barren rocks the fleets leave behind. We simply don't know.

That in turn means that nids at the peak of their power (that we know of; current nids) probably wouldn't have been that big of a challenge to any of the big players at the height of their power, given the ridiculous tech they had available. The nids are really dangerous to the remnants that exist now, but it feels a bit meh to only be a threat to the leftovers.

This, basically.

It doesn't matter how many Hormagants you have when the Necrontyr World Engine rocks up to play, it'll scour the surface clean. What's that? The Hive Fleet could just build a gajillion spaceships instead and blow up the World Engine? That's cool, the Necrontyr will just blow out a light in the Celestial Orrery and wipe out the Hive Fleet, local sun, and everything else in the vicinity.

What's that, your Hive Fleet has just shown up to menace a Maiden World? They're present in such numbers they're drowning out the defenders. Oh well, activate the Fireheart and blow up the planet. Massive Tyranid fleet? Eh, just link a couple of Blackstone forts and wipe the whole system. Anything left over? Well, just drop one of those Black Holes in a Box, it doesn't matter how many or tough they are when they're crumpled into atomic insignificance.

What's that, the Tyranids have rocked up against a unified DAoT Mankind? That's fine, robots can fight instead. Spam them out the factories. Too many Tyranids? Best open the Key of Hel and just let your soldiers effectively get reborn when killed. Shadow in the Warp? No worries, just use a Void Abacus. For that matter, how much void weaponry being lobbed around can a bio-construct absorb? Still not enough? Better activate the Bloodtide, and burst every single Tyranid organism trying to eat anything from the inside.


The tyranids have literally nothing on this sort of power scale. You can probably derive some kind of scenario where any individual minor superweapon is overpowered by a horde, but the major ones don't give a damn how large your Hive Fleet is. Black holes and exploding planets/stars wipe out everything. Something may well be revealed in the future in the Tyranid arsenal which matches these things, but right now, they've got nothing on the elder races at their peak.

Tyranids have one superweapon at present - a planet which they built. Which we've no idea what its going to be used for save for its huge shadow in the warp projection at present.


Which is another aspect of them. Tyranids and Tau are the only two races really pushing their potential. Eldar and Necrons kind of hit peaks and haven't really pushed beyond them for various reasons; The Imperium avoids technology and until vrey recently refused to advance anything at all; Orks are kind of a power-check in that they tend to rise to whatever is needed to have a good fight, but tend to lack really long term goals beyond that. Tyranids on the other hand have no inhibitions to evolving; their main issue is that they tend to be reactive so they have to encounter something; fight it for a while and then evolve a counter to it all the time. Which ultimately works so long as they've a near infinite number of them coming from the dark of space

My own little theory is that the Tyranids aren't actually at the height of their power, but rather desperately starved and just as much on their last legs as every other faction. They were adrift in space for so long that they are severely weakened and almost destroyed. The Hive Mind is frantic, it has a lot to throw at the galaxy because it's easy to make more Tyranids but really these are the last throws of the dice.

I've long thought that what we are seeing are either the vanguard or the main body of invading tyranids attacking in tendrils - designed to soften and weaken the Galaxy. Which is why thye focus on feeding on biomatter on worlds; but don't seem to consumer stars, gas giants or as much mineral material. With a view that they are preserving such high loads for a future final wave of "grazing" ships that graze away the bulk of the galaxy once most casual biomatter (And thus risk) is gone.

 Dysartes wrote:
In fairness, Ciaphas Cain runs away from a lot of things, Fezzik.

I prefer to call it "Attacking in the opposite direction".

A strategic advance to the rear, for the purpose of improving morale.

I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.

 Esmer wrote:
I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.

It might be a long established fan theory or something from a single sentence in a codex or white dwarf. Most likely a scientist or such presuming possible reasons for why Tyranids are appearing now in the Galaxy. Fleeing from something worse has often been a concept because the way the 40K galaxy is currently setup there isn't much room for new factions to arise. Tau kind of arose because the Imperium forgot about them and Eldar are said to have had a guiding hand in them. That said until the mech suits took off in a big way; Tau looked like they'd bascially be the "every other xenos in the galaxy that the Imperium hasn't crushed" kind of faction. It's still there in the lore but so far its not really been a big part of the model line. Heck I (and others) wonder if they might split like Tyranids and Genestealer Cults -creating a core Tau army that focuses on mechs and a "Tau Auxiliaries/allies" type army that likely has a Kroot core and which is then comprised of multiple xenos species.

roboemperor wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.

The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.

For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.

And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.

A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).

shortymcnostrill wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.

The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.

For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.

And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.

A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).

We know nothing of their past.
We don't actually know all that much of their current either, we know the Tyranids consume but beyond that nothing. What reasons they have for what they do are often given as basic instinct type answers. Like a Victorian view on the animal kingdom in general. We don't even really know the mental structure of the Hive Mind nor if any of its Norn Queens or other spawns can show true individual thought or agancy within the Swarm nor how they can sever and relink to the hive mind as things happen. The closest we have on that is a sense that the Swarm Lord has some "anger/concern" about some foes that have defeated it.


Tyranids are honestly a huge mystery in all that they are, do and once were. All we really know is how they behave and even that can be subject to variety and change which can be baffling when we've no clue as to their true goals or intentions.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.

Also they were likely armed and supplied by Old One manufacturing.

That would explain the ornate armor one was wearing in Trazyn's (sp) zoo.

To the question, we don't really know do we.
In older fluff, the Krork and Eldar were pushing back the Necrontyr when the beholders (whatever they are called) infestation occurred. But regardless, both were very powerful. Blackstones can wipe out fleets.

DAOT humanity also had lots of candy to play with.

But inversely we are not aware of the true strength of the Nids coming.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).

One of the codices explicitly says a dozen galaxies lay devoured by the Tyranids.

 Esmer wrote:
I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.

You can't find it because it actually does not exist. GW has never actually written that or implied that. It is just one of those things people have made up and told and retold as if it were true, without actual citation or reference.

Most other factions at their peak would have been Tyranid fodder even under the most favourable circumstances.

The Great Devourer cometh.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Most other factions at their peak would have been Tyranid fodder even under the most favourable circumstances.

The Great Devourer cometh.

Ummmmm, as the reigning king of Hyperbole, I'm calling BS on this. The Necrons have the ability to delete entire stars. I don't think they'd blink at destroying the central hive control ships and then mopping up the insane masses. Also the necrons at their peak could alter star systems.

Tyranid peak power is an unknown quantity though. These tendrils could be the only ones or there could be an truly massive swarm of Tyranids consuming multiple galaxies at the same time.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.

Also they were likely armed and supplied by Old One manufacturing.

That would explain the ornate armor one was wearing in Trazyn's (sp) zoo.

To the question, we don't really know do we.
In older fluff, the Krork and Eldar were pushing back the Necrontyr when the beholders (whatever they are called) infestation occurred. But regardless, both were very powerful. Blackstones can wipe out fleets.

DAOT humanity also had lots of candy to play with.

But inversely we are not aware of the true strength of the Nids coming.

I don’t think that was old one manufactured, (kr)ork tek gets more advanced the bigger the population gets, as well as how big and smart the mek is. If a random mek boy can make a plasma gun that's more powerful than the best of the mechanicus, I’m terrified of what Krorks could make, especially as said by talker in prophets of waaagh because krorks were aware of their gestalt ability.

Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.

 Overread wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.

It might be a long established fan theory or something from a single sentence in a codex or white dwarf. Most likely a scientist or such presuming possible reasons for why Tyranids are appearing now in the Galaxy. Fleeing from something worse has often been a concept because the way the 40K galaxy is currently setup there isn't much room for new factions to arise.

This, it's an imperial attempt to explain the nids. It's also debunked by Pharos. The Pharos device is the reason the Nids are aware of our galaxy at all and it's the reason they are here.

True but even then we don't really know why or what would happen when they reach it.

 Overread wrote:
True but even then we don't really know why or what would happen when they reach it.

Or if it even matters. The impression I got is it was just a beacon that got their attention. A light house. They simply moved towards the light.

Regarding the "run away from something".

IIRC one of the codices said Tyranids are unknown, and they could be doing x, y, or z. And z happened to be the "run away from something".

So I think the whole theory of Tyranids running away from something is spawned from a literal half sentence somewhere in one of the codices.

roboemperor wrote:
Regarding the "run away from something".

IIRC one of the codices said Tyranids are unknown, and they could be doing x, y, or z. And z happened to be the "run away from something".

So I think the whole theory of Tyranids running away from something is spawned from a literal half sentence somewhere in one of the codices.

This is exactly what I meant earlier with how this misinformation keeps getting spread and repeated year after year for over 20 years. “I know I read it somewhere but I cannot remember where.”

The answer is this has never been actually said by GW. I have never seen anyone been able to back up this claim with ability to quote and cite from a GW source. Referring to some other forum post where someone claims to have also read it but conveniently cannot remember or quote it is not proof. In-universe sources are unreliable sources so are not definitive proof.

For what it's worth it's included on page 6 of the 8th edition codex. The same line is also repeated in the 5th and 6th ed codexes.

It is possible that the Tyranids have been preying on galaxies since time immemorial and this is but the latest to feel their predations. Some have even speculated that the Tyranids are in flight from an even greater threat, be it a cosmic disaster or another fearsome race, and have risked the nothingness between galaxies rather than face extinction.

But yeah, it's really just a throwaway line which people have taken and ran with.

That line says only that some have speculated, not that it is true or even likely to be true. Some could have speculated pink unicorns made the Tyranids.

I would actually suggest this is an example of GW feedback and incorporating something that players have been speculating about since 2nd edition. GW has just now made it so that even in-universe some have speculated the same, not that it is true

 Overread wrote:
Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.

The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.

 Sasori wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.

The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.

Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.

Voss wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.

The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.

Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.

I would prefer if they actually do have the opening stages of Necrons vs Tyranids and them stalemating each other (to avoid their endgames ending the setting), while humanity and the Imperium has to survive in the shadow of these two factions clashing. The Imperium cannot rely on its favorite strategy of using its numerical superiority against the Tyranids (or the Necrons if they awaken). If humanity were taken down a peg and not dominant in the galaxy, there would be more room for xenos vs xenos stories.

Addition:
Warzone Octarius gives the latest updates to the Orks vs Tyranids conflict. Despite some initial setbacks due to a temporary Khornate daemon invasion that weakened the Tyranids, which the Orks took advantage of, the Tyranids made a comeback and overwhelmed the other worlds of the Octarius system. On Octarius itself, the Overfiend initially slew the Swarmlord but a new iteration of the Swarmlord was spawned, and after using the resources from the other consumed worlds, the Swarmlord wore down the Orks through massive attrition, expending even its elite organisms like it would expend Termagants, and killed the Overfiend after slicing the hydraulic cables that enabled movement of the Overfiend's klaw. Kryptman spies reported that no less than 6 Orks have since declared themselves the new Overfiend and now the Orks seem to fight among themselves and the Tyranids, which led to Kryptman's source concluding the Tyranids now have the upper hand and are on track for consuming Octarius.

My only personal nitpick with that narrative is in typical 40K fashion it went down to a duel between the Swarmlord and the Overfiend. I think it would have been more in character for the Tyranids to not resort to such individualistic "personal" means. The Tyranids were described as literally covering Ork booby-trapped and weaponized mountains with acidic vomit from bioships. If I were the writer, I would have had the Tyranids lure the Overfiend into what he thinks is going to be a duel and then dump a massive orbital barrage of acid to completely smother the battle field in a sea of acid, sacrificing the ground swarm in the process (to show how the Hive Mind cares not about individual organisms, not even its Swarmlord). An alternative might be to have a Ramsmiter Kraken do a suicide dive into the atmosphere and impact the battlefield. The Hive Mind is not supposed to do duels (the Iyanden Avatar's challenge to a duel was instead met with a dozen Carnifexes).

Maybe after eating so many orks it just instinctively challenged the warboss to a 1 on 1 for supremacy?

A lot of 40k can be asked “why not orbital bombardment?” It makes sense on so many levels. But 40k is not about being sane. It’s about being cinematic and cool.

But you are correct. The hive mind does not care about the individuals, only the results. And has no sense of honor.

Orbital Bombardment isn't cheap and most of the orbital weapons we see tend to have quite significant fallout and side effects. Yes you can burn whole worlds to secure them, but then you've got to spend a fortune rebuilding the world to make it functional again. Plus with the way technology works there are many buildings the Imperium might not know how to rebuild or how to restore their original function to its former glory. Tech resources that are limited.

Heck the Imperium did conduct a huge orbital bombardment campaign clearing worlds ahead of the Hive Fleet and - people didn't like it.


In general it meant that whole worlds were sacrificed, whole territories lost and it might take generations to reclaim those worlds and have them profitable and productive and able to support populations.


Meanwhile the Tyranids sustained themselves. Which is the issue; a creeping retreat is just that, it might buy you a little time but its not actually going to stop them.

Tyranids can also adapt to harsh conditions on worlds very quickly and without apparent need to spend excessive resources to do that. So burning worlds might strip them of easy food, but it doesn't stop the Tyranids taking and using them if they need too.