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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

Good spot. To add to that conjecture, the spyrer suits incorporate several things, mostly weapons, which are absent from the wider Tau armory, but common in the Votann forces: the bolt launchers in the Orrus' fists, laser weaponry of the Yeld, and various high-efficiency close combat weapons. All of these make much more sense as an offshoot of the Votann's STC technology.

Or the Tau terms got adopted as the names. Necromunda is like half a galaxy away from the Tau. There could be lots of middlemen intermediaries and as suggested, it could be the Kin trading these rigs around, possibly under the guise of other names/identities like the Demiurg.

i'm not seeing the claimed Tau connections at all in the Spryer's gear? the Tau don't use the term 'rig' or names like Orrus, Jakara, etc..

and given the hunter rigs have heavy close combat focus, using battlefits, blades, short range weapons, etc.. they're very much the opposite of tau combat technology styles. nor did the old minis carry any Tau stylings. (if anything, they're closer to imperialized Eldar visuals,, especially the older rogue trader edition eldar gear. (also their fighting style.. malcadons like warp spiders, Yeld like swooping hawks, Jakara like stirking scoprions, etc)

It was in their original Codex, which featured sample words, which bore resemblance to the Spyrer rig names. Following image must be from a more recent one though, due to Vespid and T’au



That was the extent of it, until now.

Good catch Mad Doc! Yes, this is an excellent explanation.

For those like me who were previously unaware of how the names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up with certain words in the Tau language, see the following 3rd edition background:

Mal'caor - Spider (Malcadon)
Or'es - Powerful (Orrus)
Y'eldi - Air caste name for a particularly gifted pilot (literally "winged one")



Now Dwarf trademarks!

Always remember that old leads are relevant in Warhammer 40'000. Old does not equal defunct.

It would seem more likely to me that the T'au words were part of their lexicon before they encountered the Demiurge.

We know that Spyrer tech isn't unique to Necromunda, and has been linked to archaeotech and jokaero previously, so it's not like the Squats are the only possible source.

Plus, thge T'au seemingly not using any of the Spyrer-related technologies remains a problem if they had close contact with them via the Demiurge.

Unless they simply weren’t interested in those items.

The Spyrer suits are seemingly fairly unique tech. They have all sorts of trinkets, geegaws and abilities, but the wearer has to earn access to them. Kind of like Spidey’s Stark Suit from Homecoming.

You are right my observation isn’t automatically “therefore Votann” though. I’d need to see more of their own language.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It would seem more likely to me that the T'au words were part of their lexicon before they encountered the Demiurge.

We know that Spyrer tech isn't unique to Necromunda, and has been linked to archaeotech and jokaero previously, so it's not like the Squats are the only possible source.

Plus, thge T'au seemingly not using any of the Spyrer-related technologies remains a problem if they had close contact with them via the Demiurge.

Or maybe the Tau saw and gave names to the tech they saw at the Demiurg flying emporium but didn't buy.

"We'll pass on those suits. We got our own, but we'll buy those ion cannons, including the supersized version!"

Maybe the Demiurg hang around Tau space because there is an extended service warranty

The Demiurg connection is the best explanation as of now for those particular Tau words. The Tau may also have bought some technology related to the specific Spyrer rigs in question to try out, to much publicity within their society. These not leading anywhere permanent in practice still left an imprint in the language.

Bonus quote from ashur on Chaos Dwarfs Online:

ashur wrote:This is terrifyingly good! They are like robots without their builders. Now they keep going without asking what is the purpose of what they do. They work to endure and endure to work, without anything to break the cycle.

And yet they brew alcohol, share jokes and enjoy battle songs, so maybe the Ancestors failed to completly dehumanize them. It’s depressing and heartwarming, depending on your point of view.

Two pictures of interest to Kin background, and of interest as aesthetic inspiration.

One pleasant surprise in the Leagues of Votann vehicle kits is the consistent stretched hexagonal patterning on the inside of armour panels and doors. Barely any of it is visible once the model is assembled. Thus a nice touch playing up the Squats' uncut roots back to the Dark Age of Technology, in contrast to the looks of Age of Imperium technology:



And speaking of a theme of space exploration and resource extraction, this Starcraft-themed Leagues of Votann army display board is simply gorgeous.



I am surprised how well an aesthetic take not too dissimilar to Starcraft Terrans works for Squats. Yes, there should be more Dwarf details and especially more rotund physique and enormous beards. But the basic idea works a lot better in practice than it would have seen if it was proposed in text only.

And best of all, GW grasped the opportunity to tie a piece of the 40k setting back in with humanity's Dark Age of Technology, with both hands. Surprisingly able hands. Fits excellently.

Future miniature releases and background snippets would do well to explore mining drills, artillery and some form of hefty Squat walker or robot.

On the quote for Ashur?

I’d argue they were just dehumanised enough.

Whilst free will has been eroded, the capacity for leaps of logic and innovation haven’t. I can’t see that as accidental, otherwise why not just send automata out there?

No. Some element of humanity was still required. Automata May meet a problem, and simply go around it, choosing a different vein to mine. They make lack the insight to see opportunity, whereas us humans are good at turning adversity into opportunity,

The family bond, ability to create art etc are also buried deep in human nature. Started with handprints, developed into cave art. Cave art became more sophisticated, going from What Was Done to How To Do It. Formal writing then followed in due course.

That capacity for expression, whether purely informational or more artsy is useful. We don’t just communicate, we’re obsessed with it.

Oral story telling was an early, if inherently unreliable, way of preserving history.

The Kin still have need of that. And if you did want to excise that, for whatever reason? Who knows what else you might be removing at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the family focus? I saw a documentary a while back, which sadly I’ve never been able to track down again. Apologies in advance if this is now disproven, or was always pseudoscience.

But the argument presented was the invention of the net, lead to the existence of grandparents - and it was at that point we really started to get good as a species.

Super short form? Nets improved hunting. Even folk with lesser stamina could help, simply holding the net whilst prey was flushed out and into the net. Once entangled, literally Easy Meat.

Less calories spent hunting, and better results meant more food to go round. This reduced internal competition for calories. Folk could live longer, as you’d no longer have scraps if you couldn’t hunt. Even if you couldn’t hold the net, there was still an excess of food by comparison.

So those least able stayed home to raise the young - and crucially, pass on their lifetime experience at an earlier stage of the young person’s lives. No more learning on the job. Grandad was around to teach you.

Heck, the net even made hunting less perilous, so fewer people suffered goring, impalement and death etc, again ensuring skills survived down through the generations.

That’s now super hard wired into us, because (again provided this isn’t pseudoscientific drivel, I apologise unreservedly if it is) it was a Successful Tactic,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the quote for Ashur?

I’d argue they were just dehumanised enough.

Whilst free will has been eroded, the capacity for leaps of logic and innovation haven’t. I can’t see that as accidental, otherwise why not just send automata out there?

No. Some element of humanity was still required. Automata May meet a problem, and simply go around it, choosing a different vein to mine. They make lack the insight to see opportunity, whereas us humans are good at turning adversity into opportunity,

Of course, you need your biological Von Neumann miners to be able to handle unpredictable and unforeseen situations and be able to think their way to engineering a solution, not merely repeat by rote what is known (that's the Mechanicus). However the blocking of free will is more subtle than being just mindlessly robotic. It means they won't think along certain lines of thought, and if such ideas were brought to their attention they would shrug and dismiss them as irrelevant. I see it as similar to the Custodes and how they also supposedly lack free will to truly disagree with the Emperor though they retain enough flexibility of mind to problem solve and defeat new threats. They might be able to theoretically consider the idea of not doing something the Emperor's way, maybe even argue it so as to be a Devil's advocate advisor to the Emperor, but ultimately if the Emperor decided on a course of action, the Custodes would fall into line and rationalize away or submerge their objections.

Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

Reading this reminded me of John Spartan (Sylvester Stallone) in Demolition Man having an irresistible urge to knit after "Behavioural Engineering" while in cryogenic suspension.

gravitywell wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

Reading this reminded me of John Spartan (Sylvester Stallone) in Demolition Man having an irresistible urge to knit after "Behavioural Engineering" while in cryogenic suspension.

The villain from that same movie, Simon Phoenix, was unable to kill Dr. Cocteau because of an implanted behavioral block while Phoenix was in cryo-suspension. Of course the gaping loophole in the movie was he just got one of his gang members (who did not have such an implanted block) to do it.

I know this is a late reply, but I've deliberately held off responding here until I had something special ready to share. Dwarfs are slow and methodical and patient, after all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

First of all, I like very much how you have phrased it here. You, JAB, ashur on CDO and many others here on Dakkadakka have provided most outstanding arguments and food for thought in the discussion contained within this very thread.

The discussion here has not only been enjoyable and thought-through, but creatively fruitful. For which I would like to roll out Exhibit A as a tribute to the stimulating debate here:



Note the visual implication that the Ancestors who are said to be watching may in fact be the corporate owners, the Men of Gold, who had the Kin made as excellent biological robot workers in the first place, some 20'000 years ago or thereabout. Old Squat lore, for all its good sides, never sported anything closely as exquisite as this, nor the implication that the accumulating mass of data input from dead Kin helps to slowly kill the Votann super computers. GW really hit it out of the park with this one, especially with the Dark Age of Technology links. I am still in a fresh state of positive surprise, and am still laughing all the way to the bank.

It took a lot of time to paint these two in acrylic, but it's finally done. With it I wanted to say well done to everyone involved in this fine discussion, gentlemen.

It’s also helped fill in a bunch of pre-Imperial blanks in the overall history of humanity. But, in doing so? Has raised more questions, without giving anything a clear, definitive answer.

For example, the Men of Gold. We know what the Kin believe them to be, or have been. But we also know the Kin are programmed genetically, and so must be treated as unreliable narrators.

If, as is my personal speculation and Votann was a mega corporation in the vein of Wayland-Yutani, it raises questions as to whether it had competitors, and from there whether mankind at its absolute zenith was at all united.

That also might help explain why not all worlds were equally developed. Those setup by such a mega corporation might be expected to have better kit than one settled by independent pioneers. If only because one belonging to a mega corporation might reasonably expected to be settling into an existing trade network.

It could be the mega corporations were the main bodies doing extensive genetic fiddling, enabling the settlement of a wider variety of worlds, with those independent having to find somewhere more or less Earth analogous. Perhaps the STC was the product of such mega corporations. Maybe independent settlements had to buy lesser versions of more limited databanks and capability.

Depending how far you want to take that, Golden Age humanity was a sheer hell of corporate exploitation, or a wonderfully altruistic endeavour. Or falls somewhere in between.

This was really sharpened when I saw Alien Romulus for the first time, and its explanation for why Wayland-Yutani were so keen on the Starbeast. To get their hands on black goo, the better to adapt colonists to a specific world. Keeps the colonists alive, and potentially, stops them entirely from being able to live anywhere else, giving you an indentured population forever.

It then raises questions of when, and for what purpose, other Abhuman populations came into being. If we accept they’re all children of the STC? Perhaps Beastmen were an attempt to create sturdy warriors. Maybe to combat the Men of Iron. If so, could it be they remain fairly crude because the process was never perfected, those behind its creation losing their lives/civilisation before they got a chance to get what they were really after.

So many thoughts!